MNC: Arsenal's VAR victory & missed chance for Spurs?

24:20So the reason why the AAR would send him is because, well, hold on a minute, there's stuff that's gone on here that I don't think you... In your comms between each other during the game, you haven't described this that's happened. So it's actually happened. You haven't described it. So I'm assuming you haven't seen it. So why don't you go and take a look? You're right. So just to clarify for our listeners, it's a clear and obvious error or a missed incident. So the VAR can send the referee over to the monitor if he feels that there's a missed incident. And on that particular occasion on replay, you can see that Chris Gabbana doesn't actually have a clear view.

24:58It's impossible for him to be able to see that David Reyes shirt is being pulled because there are players in the way. And also the fact that David Reyes arm is being held as well. But both it's impossible to see. So it's a missed incident. I do think it's a clear and obvious error as well. But again, you need the replay to see that. I don't blame the officials on the field because with 16 players in a very close proximity, it's impossible to keep your eye on everything. And there are just bodies in the way sometimes. So yes, Darren England on VAR was perfectly entitled to send him over. And I think he made the correct decision.

25:39Just to be crystal clear here, so there's no muddying of waters, I think, Darren, you're saying that you sent him over to look at the specific incident on Ryan, not everything else in the box. Because what it sounded like Matt was saying was that he was to go and look at everything on the side. That's what it sounded like. Yeah, so what would actually happen, Nadam, is that Darren England would recommend an on-field review for a possible foul on the goalkeeper. bearing in mind West Ham have been given the goal so they're not looking to see if there are any other incidents other than is there a reason to disallow the goal so on this occasion the video was looked at it was seen that there was in Darren England's opinion a foul on the goalkeeper so he recommended an onfield review

26:27Chris Sutton:but hang on Darren, sorry to interject but then what happens if he sees half the other things that are going on as well and just let me, well you know He can't do take your pick, can he? He can't just pick one. Chris, it's such a random enforcement of justice to say. Yeah, Glenn, let me read a couple of emails on this. No, it's not. Glenn says, As a lifelong West Ham fan, I wish to express my disappointment in yesterday's decision to allow the goal. I'm not disputing that, looking at the footage, Pablo has an arm across Raya, and if that was in isolation, I would agree with the foul being given.

27:00Chris Sutton:However, what I find more concerning is that the officials are not spotting what has caused him to have his arm in that position. If Trossard doesn't look to hold Pablo, or Gabriel not hold on to his shirt, then Pablo would jump. We all know that arms are used for leverage, but being unable to do so, I feel, results in his arm being at that height. Another one, Noel. Oh, no, sorry. Phil. Hang on, no, where's the other one gone? Hang on. There was one more. Hang on. Oh, I've lost it. Anyhow, go on, Rory. My sense would be, and Chris, I take your point, you can't be like, hang on, there was a lot going on there, let's just send the referee over.

27:33And I understand that the way that VAR works is they have to say there is an issue here with this bit. We need you to look at that because we think either you've made a mistake or you might not have seen it, as Darren says, for perfectly legitimate reasons. But at the same time, it strikes me as being fundamentally bizarre that the referee can say, well, I've seen a foul there, but all that fighting around him... And there were several Arsenal players who were, I mean, what looked to me like dragging people down,

28:01Chris Sutton:non-footballing actions, I believe that's all. I've found it. Damien, I should have scrolled up rather than scrolled down. Damien, we've been calling all season for holding and grappling to be dealt with in line with the law. Law 12 says it's an infringement to hold an opponent or impede an opponent. Before the ball reaches Raya, Trossard manhandles Pablo, Suchek is floored by Havertz, and as Pablo reaches Raya, Gabriel is crouched down pulling Pablo's shirt. So should the outcome of a VAR review have been a foul on the goalkeeper? He says the answer is no. Sheik Given said on Match of the Day last night, Gabriel is holding, Odegaard is holding, Trossard is holding before the foul even happens.

28:37Chris Sutton:When does the referee decide that that's the foul he wants to pick and not the previous foul? This is just a little interjection. One of the things in the guidance, which I think was tweaked in 2024 and possibly down in 2025, and suggests that PGMOL has a romantic streak, is that mutual holding is OK. And to an extent, seems to be actively encouraged. Mutual holding is the term that they use, and it's the official way of saying they're all at it. But I think the issue there is you're creating a grey area. You're saying, well, if you're both doing it, it's fine until the point where it's not. And that is where fans lose their sense of what makes any sense at all.

29:18Chris Sutton:And that's the bigger problem, isn't it, Nadem? And not if you're a West Ham fan, I appreciate that, or an Arsenal fan. But that is the bigger problem, is that we are now in this situation of, well, if both sides are doing it or if everybody's doing it, then that's okay. And it's not because it's dreadful. I mean, it's a dreadful spectacle. And to suggest that the Premier League is physical and that's why it happens is nonsense because the Premier League isn't physical anywhere else on the field because if it was, Joachim Andersen wouldn't have been sent off. That tackle would have been allowed.

29:52Yeah, I think you're making really good points. And for me, I think I've spoken about this on this show before and others, like a law tweak is something that is needed i think darren's got a good idea in terms of creating space because for the last couple of years in my opinion goalkeepers overall before the thing on sunday goalkeepers overall had become basically redundant from set pieces especially in swinging ones and the whole grappling side of things like realistically when a corner comes in in the past it'd be like try and find space try and get a block try and create this create that but when you've got essentially 15 to 20 players in a six yard box and the ball's coming into that area, all that people can do is grapple.

30:32Those defensively, those in attack, and realistically there, it's rubbish to watch. I'll call it what it is. It's rubbish to watch. Like, I like, and this is just me, I like a bit of creativity. Oh, that's a great ball in the box. That's a well-timed run. But some of these goals and some of these moments are coming from essentially playing percentages, which people are entitled to do. But as the guys have been saying, as everybody said, all of a sudden you're seeing the marking is literally like, well you're starting here, I'm standing here, the ball's coming in here, we're going to fight for the ball.

31:01And that fight regularly involves just using your arms. And until something changes, that's how it's going to be.

31:06Chris Sutton:The Athletic have done an article today. In-swinging corners are up by 22 % from two seasons ago. We are at the highest rate for in-swinging corners, 2 ,503 since 2018. Fouls on goalkeepers from those corners, 146. goals from corners 174 if you compare it to others in Europe Germany for the number of goals from in swinging corners 18 team league they've only had 133 120 in Serie A 111 in La Liga it is a Premier League problem Chris or issue depending on your opinion Well, it is, but teams are doing it for a reason. And just because life now is more difficult for goalkeepers, I don't see the issue with that.

32:08The issue with it, Chris, is that they're profiting because the rules aren't properly being enforced. It's really hard. Nedim's right. We've all kind of beaten around the bush with this for ages. The Premier League, the money in it, has so much money ever been spent for so little in terms of what we actually get to watch. You watch the Champions League semi-final, the first one between Bayern and PSG. Huge wages, nation-state on PSG, Bayern dominate a league that's been hollowed out to a hush by English money. But at least they're trying to attack, whereas people are paying 70, 80 quid to go to football matches in England to watch teams lump corners at each other.

32:44And it's dreadful to watch. It's terrible for the product. And the problem with it, Chris, is that they're doing it because the rules aren't being enforced.

32:50Chris Sutton:but in the end Arsenal have done something different and we should be applauding Arsenal because not everybody can keep up with the Manchester City Manchester City's in terms of playing the beautiful game the expansive game same as Bayern Munich same as PSG so other teams have adapted and we shouldn't be kicking them for that because in the end the end justifies the means if Arsenal go on and win a Premier League and a Champions League we should all be praising Mikel Arteta to the hill, shouldn't we? We should pray. It's genius for him. And just because he's doing things differently, we shouldn't be giving him a kicking for that.

33:30Chris Sutton:Arsenal have tried for years playing the beautiful game under Arsene Wenger and didn't win a Premier League. And Mikel Arteta, when he first went in, tried to play expansive football. And eventually he's changed. So it's not Arsenal's problem. It's not Mikel Arteta's problem. No, it's not. It's a Premier League problem. It's a Premier League problem, and it's a referee problem because they have to somehow try and resolve these issues. And it's not easy. VAR didn't give Arsenal the title because they ruled out the Callum-Wilson goal. Arsenal are top of the league because they've won the most games across the course of the season.

34:07It's just one incident. It's not Arsenal's fault what's happened. They have exploited it and should be credited with the ingenuity for exploiting it. But that doesn't mean it's a good thing. dressing it up as a good thing is sophistry it has ruined the spectacle are you saying it's damaging the premier league brand then rory would you go that far i think it's very odd that given the amount of the amount of time and money people spend about worrying about how to attract gen z to watch football that no one seems to have thought maybe we should stop them lobbing corners at each other yeah i don't mean what there's no point watching anything what's your

34:40Chris Sutton:alternative then so what is your alternative so so all of a sudden you know change i mean just totally change football? No, do what we did until two years ago, Chris, and accept that sometimes the goalies are getting fouled. That's all you need to do. They removed that bit. As Nadam said, they rendered goalkeepers redundant by creating this high threshold so that they could re-referee everything on video. All you need to do is enforce the rules as they used to be enforced. You weren't allowed to foul goalkeepers, Chris, when you were playing. You just weren't. But that was too far, Rory. No, has it not swung?

35:11Do you not think that was like an overprotected species at that point? any little touch on the goalkeeper and it was a senseless foul in the goalkeeper's favour so there is a balance to be had here I do agree but I think PJML probably looked at it similar to the handball rule where they've tried to apply a little bit of leeway in terms of right we don't want people to get punished for certain things that are not right and I think they've gone down that road maybe with this issue and I think it's a harder issue to place

35:41Chris Sutton:What's your idea then Darren? Well, my idea would be for attacking players not to be allowed in the six-yard box until the corner has been taken, thus creating space between the attackers and the defenders, so it would stop the grappling, and also it would stop the attacking team loading the six-yard box with six or eight players crowding around the goalkeeper, and it would make it much easier to officiate, it would be more attractive. it wouldn't detract from the goals I think because the attacking players would effectively get a run on the defenders if they're starting outside the six yard box so it would just mean that it's much easier and it would stop the referee having to go in before the corner is taken every time because we see that a lot where players are just pushing each other to the ground and of course as you'll know in law you can't give a penalty or a defensive free kick if the ball is not in play so going back to a couple of the emailers earlier and some of the sort of individual tussles if you like actually started before the ball was in play so they're inadmissible in law you can't give a penalty or a defensive free kick because it's happening before the ball is in so my idea would be like a penalty attackers have to stay outside the box until the penalty is taken like a goal kick attackers have to be outside the penalty area before a goal kick is taken and I think it's a simple tweak just to change the law to say that they're not allowed in the six yard blocks until the ball is in play you quite like that don't you?

37:19yeah I adore it I think that might have taken the idea away from me a few months ago to be honest that's been discussed on the airways before right okay no I don't mind it just because like firstly you know I'm with the guys I remember back in the day goalkeepers were overprotected but we knew that same way we feel about certain other laws whether the you know the handballer last player whatever tug of the shirt it's like an accepted standard you know and it was like yeah it's a bit soft but it's a bit too much but the corners thing I like it because you mentioned the inswingers but the nuance is there have been tons of inswingers in the past but maybe they go between the six yard box and the penalty spot but in this era it feels like a lot of just going into the six yard box and it's just pure chaos just wrestling people.

38:05And I think if Darren's idea was to come through, then it adds a bit more creativity, adds a bit more of a focus in terms of, say, the delivery. Because some of the delivery into the six-yard box, it doesn't have to be great. When I think of those deliveries, I maybe think at times of Declan Rice really flat one being driven in. But there are loads of games where I watch where it's literally just floated into that space. And you know that, say, the goalkeeper can't come out, there's no space to do anything. And I think that idea of allowing goalkeeper a split second to be able to make a better decision as opposed to having so many bodies around them from the get-go and also the players themselves trying to time their runs better.

38:40Would it be harder from a defender's point of view

38:42Chris Sutton:because the attackers would get a run on you? Well, then you can go back to times of my marketing and things like that, couldn't you? You could still have people set up in a zone like many people do around the six-yard box and maybe in some ways you could try and disrupt their runs by, say, blocking them off just as the ball's coming in. But it forces people to think in a different way instead of, like, as I say, people are perfectly entitled to do it and it's proven to be very good for lots of teams overall. But just 20 players standing in the six-yard box, you've got to ask yourself, is that what you want to see and is that the best version of the game?

39:12Can I workshop Darren's idea just a little bit? Is that all right? Well, you can as long as you don't use the word workshop.

39:17Chris Sutton:Come on, let's blue sky here, Chappers. We're not in W1A. Very often it feels like we are. Darren, I'm leaving that alone. Darren would, just to check, the defenders can still mark wherever they like so the defenders could be outside the six yard box Absolutely, there's no restriction on the defensive team but the attackers not being in the six yard box would just simply mean that the goalkeeper has clear space if you like because clearly it's a tactic to surround the goalkeeper to try and make him ineffective and this would eradicate that situation But there might be a hell of a lot of stopping Darren, at the point when the corner is taken attacking players, trying to time their run, and that may hold the game up even more.

40:06Chris Sutton:I mean, every corner of the game could get held up, couldn't it? Well, I think it does at the moment, Chris, to be honest. So I think by creating separation between attackers and defenders, and of course the defenders can mark outside the six-yard box, but I suspect they would be mostly zoned or across the edge of the six-yard box, and then some picking up. That's what we normally see. But the main thing is that we wouldn't have attacking teams placing eight players under the crossbar and the in-swinging going under the crossbar. And it's carnage. It's impossible to police. And that would therefore lead to fewer VAR interventions as well because there wouldn't be so many things to look at like there were yesterday.

40:51I just want to go back to one thing just to make clear. there was Declan Rice on Navrapanos as well that would have been looked at by the VAR as well that would have been considered that the foul on Davadreya took place before Declan Rice fouled Navrapanos so obviously that doesn't come into it because the foul happened first they would have also looked at Trossard Trossard possibly was engaged with Pablo as well so they're looking at every incident and that's why it takes a little bit longer because it wasn't just one incident to look at But what I would say, Chappers, is I've heard five minutes, I've heard eight minutes.

41:27Believe me, I've watched this 200 times today. Darren England took two minutes and 21 seconds from the time that he said, well, Chris Cavanaugh said that the goal has been given. And then he did the check for two minutes, 21, before recommending the on-field review. And of course, then we have time for the referee to go over to the screen and look at the screen. But two minutes 21, I think we ought to actually put that out into the audience so that they know actually it wasn't five minutes, it wasn't eight minutes, it's under two and a half minutes. And I think given what was at stake, I think that's pretty acceptable.

42:10Chris Sutton:Just a final one on your idea. That couldn't... If somebody from the Premier League was listening, they thought, oh, yeah, that would be quite interesting. we couldn't do it and the Bundesliga and La Liga not do it could we? that's correct Chappers yes sadly not all law changes are looked after by IFAB in conjunction with FIFA so it would have to go to them for them to actually ratify it and so yes unfortunately it's not something the Premier League can bring in so we would have to wait for IFAB to approve it how many times have you watched it again? about 200 this afternoon so I can tell you everything about it but we don't have time to go into it have you done anything else today?

43:02no, I've pretty much spent all my day looking at this preparing referees get a bad name that's dedication thank you very much Darren

43:12Chris Sutton:Collie on mnc at bbc.co.uk what is clear and obvious is that there's nothing clear and obvious about being clear and obvious and I hope that's clear, if not obvious. And Sampo, before Sam go down, it's not all down to that decision. They've had a terrible season as a whole. When you watched yesterday, Nadine, did Mikel Arteta come very close to blowing that? In what sense, sorry? In substitutions and certainly the second half of the first half. You could say that, yes, but then I think for me just the biggest thing is the fact that they managed to get the win and I think at this point in the season having seen you know teams like City in years gone by win the league in the way that they've done it's not been brilliant to look at at this stage it's just been enough just enough just enough just enough I think for Arteta to be able to do that is important and in some ways so having been somebody for example who's been in the bottom three playing against big sides especially at home that game to you is everything.

44:19To Arsenal, they kind of know it's everything, but the midweek game in the Champions League was objectively like everything to them. And that was such a high that the next game can't really be that high, in my opinion. Like, you can't continue to perform at that sort of level. So I think in some ways, it was the down that was probably expected after they made it to the Champions League final against a tough side who were desperate for the points. So I think West Ham played their part within that. But yeah, for Arsenal, like, you've just got to celebrate that. because the boost that they can get from a game, which was everyone was eyeing up as a letdown spot, I think I'm at peace with it.

44:54Chris Sutton:And I suppose, Chris, we've had so many discussions about Arsenal's squad over this season, at times when it was perceived to not have stood up to the rigours, the Southampton game in the FA Cup, for example, but actually the squad delivered yesterday, and in fact the squad has delivered since Manchester City away. Yes, I just think we got to a stage of the season where a lot of people, because it's Arsenal, wanted Arsenal to fail. I do feel that. It doesn't matter how they get over the line. This was such a big game against West Ham. They've got Burnley and Crystal Palace to come, but this was the game because of what was at stake for West Ham.

45:39Chris Sutton:It didn't matter how they did it. They did it and they are in the box seat. But I don't... I think so much has been made of this incident and Rory's sort of enraged about what happened. But essentially, Raya was fouled, the right conclusion was drawn and Arsenal won. And I don't understand why everybody's getting so angry because, you know, and going back on what has happened previously in the season and talking about inconsistencies. It was a nailed-on foul. They got it right. Arsenal have three points and they're now going to win the Premier League. Good on them. I like it when Chris pulls the...

46:23What are you all getting so worked up about? I think that's my favourite version of Chris.

46:27Chris Sutton:But what's gone on in the past has gone on in the past. And, you know, Nuno Espirito-Santo came out and, you know, he didn't nail that decision, really. He didn't speak about that specific incident. which most managers would have done because of the implications of West Ham most managers would have come out and said well that's a disgrace that's the worst decision of all time he didn't because he knew that they came to the right conclusion but to make the the point which he made about earlier inconsistencies I think everybody understands but in that moment it was the right call just on what managers say afterwards Mikel Arteta was full of praise for the officials afterwards and saying he then realised what a difficult job they have, the officials.

47:17Chris Sutton:Do you think, Chris, if they'd allowed that goal to stood, he would have said the same thing? No, he's got a bit of history of nailing referees, hasn't he? But no, definitely not. It's brilliant, you know. Obviously, we said at the start, your bias will sort of define how you see anything in particular. And I've got loads of Arsenal fans in my life that were drawing up this conspiracy list of all these decisions going against them. And then on the weekend, yeah, you see, this is correct now. This is correct. This is perfect. Everything is great with referees. You know, right decision, more power to them.

47:49Just like that.

47:58Chris Sutton:We'll switch to the Scottish Premiership title race. Who are the favourites for you now, Chris? I don't know.

48:08Chris Sutton:Right, have you had a bad day? What is wrong with you? No, I've had a good day. I don't know. But that tells you everything you need to know about the title race. Celtics win at the weekend. And probably more pertinently, the way that they played. I mean, that was a big performance at the right time. I mean, Celtic and Rangers always try and destroy each other. And of course, Rangers now are going to finish third. but that may give them real momentum going into the Motherwell game which is really difficult and of course the reason I don't know is if Celtic get something at Motherwell they go into the last game against Hearts I think Hearts will beat Falkirk although Hearts have key injuries now to two big players for them Craig Halkett and Leonard in the midfield who have been excellent you know Celtic at home against Hearts last day I would fancy Celtic to get over the line in that one so it's you know it's really difficult because Motherwell are one of those teams especially at home who you know have that have that ability where they can beat Celtic and you know I'm sure they can but it was more the performance than the result for Celtic where I think well hang on a minute you know maybe maybe just at the right time Celtic are getting going Alistair Johnson back into the Celtic team and right back the right back Canadian right back he has made such a huge difference Engels coming into form the midfielder I think Nottingham Forest wanted to buy him for 25 million uh you know he started to look like a uh a player so I mean you can say it was only Rangers but with what was at stake that was really impressive their performance the other thing in all of this is that hearts are still there and it is still in their hands which not not many people would have thought would be the case you know everybody was saying oh they won't last they won't last yeah i mean i suppose there was a there was a parallel with derrick mckinnis's season in 2014 at aberdeen where they won their first eight and then the the story of that campaign which obviously was without rangers in the top flight was basically Celtic chipping away at their lead and waiting for Aberdeen's fuel to run out, whether it's psychological or physical.

50:29And Hearts, although they've had setbacks in terms of the drop points that they will come to regret if they don't win the league, they have stayed top. And they've stayed top, and I think this is really impressive, they've stayed top just for a long time. So they've been a point ahead of Rangers, two points ahead of Celtic. There's been one game in it for most of the season, and Hearts have been able to sustain it. And given the pressure that that club must be under because they don't have that institutional kind of success and also, to be honest, the massive financial advantages that Celtic in particular have, that is an amazing achievement.

51:04And I think, to me, the message, if I was Celtic or Rangers, the thing I'd worry about much less, obviously this week I'd worry about will Hearts win the title, I think the really big worry would be Hearts probably aren't going anywhere. Hearts will be around next season as well because Tony Bloom isn't in it. Tony Bloom and James Anderson, who's put a lot of money in of his own as well to bring players in, the kind of, I think he's a biotech billionaire. They're not doing it for a season. You know, Tony Bloom thinks he can do in Scotland what he's done in Belgium or what Alex Musio has done in Belgium, who's a former employee colleague of his.

51:39They think there is a gap to exploit in the old firm being a little bit stuck in their ways, a little bit traditionalist. then the chances of them being around next season, especially with Champions League money, if they make it into the group stage, they suddenly become a long-term threat.

51:55Chris Sutton:Delighted to say that Joe Savage joins us, former sporting director at Hearts. Evening, Joe. Thank you very much for being with us. Hi, guys. How you doing? It's okay? Yeah, very good. Thank you. Before we come on to your time there and what you built there and what you left for them, just that final point from Rory is that maybe a lot of people are thinking, you know, This is a one-time shot for Hearts, given the position that they've put themselves in. Celtic can't be like this again next season. Rangers, would Rangers improve next season? Internally, they're not likely to be viewing it like that, are they Hearts?

52:29Chris Sutton:They're here for the long term themselves. That's their inner belief. Yeah, I think from speaking to the staff and the guys there, they're in this for the long haul. I think Tony, as you've obviously just picked up on, he thinks that he can deliver this within 10 years and they're obviously close to doing it after one year. So I don't think they're going anywhere. I think they're only going to get better. They're going to invest a lot of money again. They've invested a lot this year. Nothing in comparison to what Celtic and Rangers have done, but they've still invested good amounts. And as Rory's saying, they're near the top of the league and they've been there all season.

53:05So they'll be confident in going again next year and the years after that.

53:09Chris Sutton:You went in in January 2021. Give us an insight into what it is like to try and build a club to be in any way competitive with the old firm in the Scottish Premiership. Yeah, well, when I went in, we were in the championship in Scotland. And again, Chris can obviously testify. This Hearts are a big club in Scotland. They're massive. They've got a huge expectation as a fan base and what they want to do. And that was the excitement for me was the project. It was more or less a blank canvas for me to go in and really build from within. and it was only really when I went in and I seen how big the club was and where you could get to that that's what really excites you and that's what excited me was that challenge of trying to get closer to the old firm and in my time there we obviously finished third twice and then fourth but the seasons that we finished third we weren't far off Celtic Rangers we just lacked a wee bit of consistency but we beat Angie's Celtic side we beat Brendan Rodgers' Celtic side and we ran Rangers close a lot of the times and they obviously beat us in one of the cup finals.

54:19So we always knew that we had the capabilities and probably just lacked that consistency. And then you've obviously seen Tony Bloom's invested the money that he's invested. The analytics through Jamestown has allowed them to go into a market and sign players. And they're obviously spending a wee bit more money in terms of transfer fees and salaries to get these players. But there was always that belief within the club that we could be someone that could actually challenge them and get closer. and I remember doing an interview and I got slaughtered for it when somebody says, what's your ambition?

54:52And I said, well, my personal ambition is to win the league. I believe that we can do it. I believe that we can build to eventually achieve that. And all the Celtic fans, the Rangers fans, the Aberdeen fans, the Hibs fans, they absolutely battered me for it and slaughtered me for it. And it's only now, obviously, you can see I'm no longer at the club, but you can see that they are capable of doing that. And listen, long may it continue.

55:13Chris Sutton:I believe they have some irrational pundits north of the border as well, Joe, who may have weighed in as well. I don't know. Joe, could you explain to us then sort of the conditions whereby, say, a club like Hearts can say that in the next 10 years, they believe that they can be competing with Rangers and Celtic? Because, you know, for the dominance that they've had across decades now, is it more so about what you can achieve with Hearts or also a message about where Rangers and Celtic are, relatively speaking, compared to, say, recent history? Ah, good question. I think that the sky's the limit for Hearts because they've got a brilliant fan base, a brilliant training ground, brilliant stadium.

55:53They've now got the investment, which they probably were lacking for years when I was there. I know you mentioned James Anderson and James is brilliant for the club, but Tony's obviously come in and taken it to a new level and that was probably what they needed. the old firm I'm not massive on saying that they've not had that good a season this year, I just think Hearts have been brilliant I think they've been very very consistent and they've just kept pushing and pushing and pushing and winning the games that they needed to win when the pressure was on them and obviously the other night against Motherwell they were unfortunate not to win the game but they're still in a position where two games to go if you'd said that to me at any point during my career at Hearts that you'd be two games from winning the league, I would have absolutely bitten your hand off for it.

56:38And I think that's what the guys at heart will be saying now is, we have two games, the next game's fall, could get home, win that and then see what happens come the Celtic game. But the conditions for me are, they've just probably lacked a wee bit of belief in the years. And now that Tony's come in and now Tony's given them access to the analytics. But guys, everyone's got data in football. Don't think that this is just something new. We were signing players when I was at Hearts through our own data. It's just Tony Bloom's obviously got access to a higher level and got more money to spend on these players.

57:14Chris Sutton:Joe, how much is it, do you think, the Jamestown data? How much Derek McInnes? I think Derek McInnes has to take a lot of the credit. I think Derek's come in, he's got them really organised, he's got them playing in a style. I think that he has been absolutely a breath of fresh air for them, to be honest with you. I think Jamestown's good. Chris, don't get me wrong. I think it's very, very good. I think they can identify some good players from it. But the core group of that team was Lauren Shanklin, Cammie Devlin, Benny Beningamy, Craig Calkett, Stephen Kingsley, Blair Spattle. They were players that were signed under our watch that know the Scottish League, know what it takes to play in that environment and that culture.

57:58and then they've obviously dripped in some bits of quality in Claudio Braga and Kiziridis and things like that. But I think Derek McKinnis has to take a huge amount of credit for what he's done and how consistent the club has been. Joe, what was your pitch to players when you were signing the likes of Shandlin, Blaire Spitzel and Cammy Devlin? And how do you think your successors at Hearts will be pitching it this summer, regardless of whether they finish first or second? The pitch for Hearts was Show them Edinburgh Show them the city Show them the stadium Show them the training ground We obviously created a video To show them about the team And how we wanted to play And the manager would obviously Talk to him about his style And his ideas for the team But I think that Hearts kind of speaks Especially for the Scottish players A lot of the Scottish players Know and understand That Hearts are a big team And playing at Tyne Castle in front of the fans is a brilliant experience if you're winning.

58:56It can be tough if you're not winning, but it's harder for the opposition as well. So I never found it tough, Rory, to sign players for Harts. I really didn't, especially once you showed them everything that you needed to show them. We were just always confident that we could get them, but obviously you needed to be able to pay them the right money and agree the transfer fee and things like that with the club. But we were always in probably a really favourable position that we, again, Edinburgh is a beautiful city. I think a lot of people would say that. And the stadium, it speaks for itself. So it was always, it was a good challenge, but you could always convince them to come here once they had seen everything that was there.

59:36And the training ground, as much as it's on a university campus, it's still a brilliant training ground. There's still a lot to like about it. And the part of Edinburgh that it is, like trafficking that's not difficult to get to. so yeah I found it quite easy to be honest with you. Presumably if you can chuck it, I mean I love the idea that you're taking them down the Royal Mile and stuff the this is the zoo, it's really good That's what we've done, we took them for lunch, we would take them for lunch Not at the zoo Joe No not at the zoo Where would you take them for lunch? So overlooking the castle so we would ask them what sort of food they would prefer but whatever they would say maybe the Italian or whatever generally we'd want to go for an Italian or something like that you would always pick so they could see the castle and things like that and it would be maybe a lunch so 2-3 o 'clock you could just see it and see how busy it was and it was funny because you could picture them looking thinking I'm going to get that penthouse there I'm going to look at you not be what you're paying me at heart

1:00:40Chris Sutton:Not when I put this contract in front of you you are. Given your hearts connections, are you nervous before I let you go? Am I nervous? No, I think it will come down to Saturday. I think hearts win on Wednesday, I think Celtic win as well and then it's going to be a shootout on Saturday. I think, sorry Celtic have not beaten hearts this season yet so that's going to play in their minds I would imagine. I think Derek McInnes thrives in these sort of games so I think it's going to be a brilliant, brilliant spectacle. I appreciate you coming on, been really good to talk to you thank you Joe thanks guys thank you Joe Savage former sporting director at heart that's it thanks to Nadim Chris and Rory up next on the Football Daily Pod a 72 plus special looking at 40 years of the playoffs

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