MNC: Arsenal’s wobble, the case for Carrick & are Liverpool “soft”?

25:32They will know, and their worry will be, and they'll be saying it internally, we have cracked nothing yet. It's a great time, but they will always know there's a game around the corner which could hurt them. I just think that the simplicity thing is, and Steph mentioned Dorgou, Dorgoo's best attributes are in an attacking sense. Defensively, that wasn't his strong suit, and yet Amorim would play him in that sort of wing-back role, and he wasn't comfortable doing that. Playing a little bit higher up now, he would feel unburdened, he would feel free, he would have that confidence. Some players just don't take to being asked to do roles which weren't their sort of natural role as such, and that seemed to be the issue under Amorim.

26:17Manchester United have always had good players. It's about getting the right fit. Even amid Chris's deliberate, sour cynicism, he is kind of right. The risk with United is that they have two good results and then everyone gets a little bit carried away. And things that are natural and kind of obvious when things are going well, and Michael Carrick's had a great week, are held up as, oh, he's completely changed the vibe around the place. And that will shift if they do hit a rocky patch, ultimately. But they have a big advantage, United, this season. because they're only playing once a week now.

26:47Ruben Amrum's great gift to Manchester United was getting them knocked out of both domestic cups, which means they can play once a week until the end of the season. They play far less football. They should be fitter than everybody. I wonder whether at times I sense it the other way, actually, whereas in that a lot of people may be connected to the club or fans are trying not to get carried away because of everything that happened with Solskjaer, trying to enjoy it, but trying not to get carried away. But then that shouldn't invalidate his credentials if it goes well. Just because, and I can't remember who said, but just because they did it one way a few years ago, they're not the same type of coaches, people, whatever.

27:29Just, you know. Oh, and over a couple of years, the game changes, the players changes. And I think Michael's come in and really kind of just come in and stamped his own authority on that team and the way that he wants to do. But I think Rory, in terms of, you know, when you're saying like you can't really judge them on the two games and maybe it's a bit of a free hit. But the most impressive thing is they came from behind yesterday. I think whereas against City, they were in the lead. They kind of had that little bit of kind of something to hold on to. You're at home at Old Trafford. You've got the crowd behind you.

28:00It's his first game. But yesterday it was more of a they came back. They didn't stop the way that they wanted to play. Whereas I think sometimes when you see his team, that doesn't mean you believe in the ethos that the coach has. It's like you just rip up everything you've done in the week in training. You just try and find a way to score. Whereas actually, it was well thought out. Bruno Fernandes obviously kind of ticking things over in midfield. And in Brembo, trying to get in between the defence and the midfield and create problems for them, which it works. So I think there were signs, very positive signs, that actually the players are listening to what the coach is saying.

28:34But, yeah, I mean, that Fulham game is going to be a big one in terms of the performance and obviously the result as well in them next games that are coming up. You need a bit of luck, don't you, as a manager? And Zubomendi, how many goals this season can you remember Arsenal gifting a team? Gabriel did that one against Bournemouth, didn't he? Pretty sure it was. Well, and actually it's turning into a bit of a trend for Arsenal. They've made more errors leading to a shot in their last five Premier League games than they did in their first 18. So it is happening more with them. So it's not just United, it's a trend.

29:10The players do seem to have really bought into Carrick really quickly and that I think is significant as well. And Chappers, you're right, that just because it didn't work long-term with Solskjaer, Solskjaer didn't do a terrible job at Manchester United. He wasn't awful. Just as that didn't play out the way that everyone hoped it would in the sort of first flush of that win in Paris. It might be that Michael Carrick is the right character. That is possible. I think the complicating factor when you have that kind of romantic attachment to a club is where do you set the bar? What does Michael Carrick do to prove that he can do it long term?

29:42And is it lower for him than it would be for an external candidate? That's the tricky thing that they've got to work out is how do you separate really wanting it to work and actually looking at it kind of with a cool head and cold eyes and saying, OK, these are the bits that we think mean this. This can work for reasons that aren't just nostalgia and poetry. I think Jason Wilcox I mean I used to play with Jason I think that the deal they've given Carrick or you know just at the end of the season I think it's a real stinker for United I think it is a stinker because it's at the halfway house isn't it you know again this is an audition isn't it this is what it is and if he does if he does well get to the end of the season and everybody will throw the Solskjaer thing at United he's passed his audition he's done well he deserves the job if there was that much belief in Michael Carrick and that confidence, they would have given him a longer deal.

30:35That's just a fact. You know, it would have happened. It wouldn't look like Manchester United are waiting, maybe, for someone at the end of the season. But is this not a better way of doing it, Chris? Of saying, here's six months, let's see if you can do it? Well, that's not absolute faith in Michael Carrick, is it? No, but Chelsea keep having absolute faith in managers and giving them 50-year contracts and they're having to pay them constantly. and I get that, How many years was Ruben Amarim given? Three. Three. So, you know, there you go. Faith in Ruben Amarim and, you know, we'll give him a three-year deal.

31:08Michael Carrick did okay at Middlesbrough, ties to the club and knows the club well. We'll just get him in as a filler. I think, you know, it'll unravel and it will unravel. It's going to be messy. What, he takes over from Carrick? No, I'm just saying the whole sort of optics. Oh, you missed that, didn't you? That was a good joke. Thank you. Thank you, Rory. Yeah. But I do, you know, at the end of the season, there's going to be issues. So if Michael Carrick gets or keeps United in fourth place, you know, what do they do at the end of the season? Do they stick with him? But that's my whole point, Chris, in that you can't go, well, he's got us Champions League football and we've won 13 of the 17 games he was in charge and the players are happy and one of them scored 20 league goals in a season.

31:59but we tried this once before therefore we can't go I mean that's you evaluate everything don't you? Yeah You can't use Solskjaer as a reason not to look at him is my point That's absolutely right but no doubt Manchester United fans will look at that situation and I was one off memory and I'd changed my mind loads but I was all for Ole Gunnar Solskjaer because he passed the audition that's what he did and so he you know he deserved he deserved the job Michael Carrick that could happen that could be the same but you can imagine and what happens at the start of next season if United get beaten by Coventry at home in the first game?

32:36It'll be Carrick out. Middlesbrough. Yeah. I mean, last season, Chris, you supported Nottingham Forest, so you are known to change your mind from time to time. Aston Villa this season. Oh, is it? Okay. Tom, a Middlesbrough fan, has actually emailed us, mnc at bbc.co.uk. Carrick came into a team who was struggling at the bottom in a toxic culture, and he freed them. The talent was there and we nearly got to a playoff final. But then he struggled the next season to rebuild the strong team and then again the season after. So the big question will be how would he rebuild the United team or build it and what his plans B, C and D are for when the bounce wears off.

33:17MNC at bbc.co.uk We had one on Arsenal as well. Paul from Northwich. The greatest danger to Arsenal winning the Premier League is Arsenal themselves. The legacy of failed title chaser of the last three years seems to be weighing very heavily on Arteta, the players and the fans. The atmosphere was tense yesterday. 15 games to go, and the race hasn't even started yet.

33:45My name's Steve Bradnell, assistant manager at Royal Oak FC. You may have seen me online going viral. Viral sensation. And now the BBC have given me the chance to set the footballing world banterise. This could be a great opportunity for us lads, a podcast for the BBC. Can I just say, what's a podcast? Brilliant. Great start. Well done, Bob. Brilliant. We can completely show utter transparency to Royal Oak fans. I'll use my charm. Gift it gab. Game's gone. The Steve Bracknell podcast. Watch on YouTube. Listen on BBC Sounds. This is the Monday Night Club with Mark Chapman. On the Football Daily Podcast.

34:33On to Liverpool, who Alan Shearer, Steph, described as soft and too easy to play against on Match of the Day on Saturday night. Fair? Yes, I think that we have seen a different side to Liverpool than we probably expected this season. I think the style of play, but also that vulnerability I believe Liverpool is something that I'm not used to seeing, especially after them winning the league last year. But I think full credit to Bournemouth as well. I don't want to say that it was all Liverpool that game because Bournemouth played really well and really fought back. But Liverpool are so inconsistent this season.

35:07I think that's a worry. I think in terms of seeing them against Marseille, they looked free, they looked as though they've got this fluidity about them. Then they go to Bournemouth and it goes back to that kind of rigidity where they are, obviously Salah's coming back into the team They're trying to settle on a system, missing a few players. But ultimately, it just doesn't seem to be that free-flowing football that we've seen of last season. So in terms of two soft, I think the game management was probably awful at times in terms of conceding goals when players are off the pitch as well. But yeah, they're definitely missing something this season.

35:41I, with great respect, quibble with Steph's use of the word inconsistent. I think Liverpool have been quite consistent. They're just not very good. I think that's the issue. It's five wins in 18 league games. They were, as Steph says, we both did the Champions League show on Wednesday and I thought that was probably Liverpool's best performance of the season against Marseille. They've looked pretty good in Europe. They've beaten Real Madrid. They've beaten Inter Milan at San Siro. But in the lead, they have been, whether they've won the games or lost them or drawn them, they've not been convincing.

36:09It's the third injury-time goal they've conceded, or injury-time winner they've conceded this season. But the reason that they're susceptible to those long throws or the corners or whatever late on, it's not just that they have a problem defending them in the end although they do it's that they haven't controlled the game for the 90 minutes before it they are always vulnerable to something and i'm not sure there's any real sign well where should that control come from for you well i think they should probably keep the ball a bit better and create a few chances to be honest they don't if you you know again against bournemouth they start from a corner and from a dominant sobers life free kick i'd be if i was dominant sobers i'd be furious with every single player around me because he's really trying his best to carry them through the season and nobody else is helping but they're not creating from open play there's a brilliant piece in the times today by um hamzalini karnat about about how little they are creating the they create fewer chances on average than the rest of the premier league and no the lead average of xg per shot is 0.1 and liverpool's is below that what the numbers mean isn't especially important it's just that liverpool are below average in terms of the quality of chance they're creating and that's a team that's got Mohamed Salah Hugh Dweckitiko who cost 79 million quid 106 million pounds worth of Florian Wurtz in it Alexis McAllister Ryan Gravenberg Sobber's like they're not creating anything and then I think Alan Shearer's right they're soft at the back there's just no control there's no shape there's no kind of sense of they know how to win football matches at all anymore and sometimes they fall the margins fall in their favour and they do win but it's not been convincing all season At the start of the season when they were winning and you know Winning ugly, I thought that was a really good thing.

37:46But Liverpool fans who I know are also finding the football boring. And I think that that clearly is an issue. I cannot. I'd probably, you know, maybe Marseille, maybe Real Madrid, maybe Arsenal earlier on in the season, where there was a bit of a rearguard action from Liverpool and they ended up getting over the line. But other than that, I can't remember Liverpool playing really for 90 minutes in a game. And that's an issue. And then, of course, the right back issue, losing Trent. How many different right backs is it? Four this season? Liverpool have played. It is four. Bradley, Frimpong. Gormans.

38:25Sobersly. I mean, clearly, that doesn't help. Then the guy playing up on the right, Mo Salah, looks like he's put his boots on the wrong feet this season. He's miles off it. You then look at Van Dijk. His levels have dropped. And you're talking about two stars, two of the star players whose levels haven't just dropped. I mean, you know, they've dropped significantly. Even players like Graven Birch, who last season, I think, was phenomenal. He's not at the level. McAllister this season has been a disappointment. You know, you mentioned that it seems like Zobers-Lion is on his own for Liverpool.

39:02And that's the issue. But it's, and the run they were on, what, 13 unbeaten. beaten when you actually with respect look at the teams who they'd beaten it wasn't anything to be getting too excited about but yeah you just feel that there is a frustration amongst Liverpool fans and I think from now to the end of the season it is going to be important for Arna Slott to to get them back and and get them playing well and competing much better than they have done they've spent a fortune as well they've lost good players Louis Diaz has been a massive loss I think you know maybe when he was at Liverpool he did get credit but maybe not enough credit In that unbeaten run by the way they've beat just the teams that Chris is disrespecting, they beat West Ham, Inter Brighton, Spurs Awful, Wolves Barnsley in the FA Cup Barnsley and Marseille away There is a discrepancy between Liverpool's form in Europe up in Liverpool's form in the Premier League and Steph referred to it before in terms of Premier League teams kind of coming to relate sides who are who are playing in a much more open way in Europe but in the domestically they've been I'd say disappointing in every single game they've played and Chris is right as much as he shouldn't be disrespecting teams or doing bad impressions of South Yorkshire accents the run that they've had since the November international break when they came back and lost 3-0 at home to Forest has been one of those sets of games where you look at beforehand and think there are points to be made up there.

40:38Those are games that a team with Liverpool's quality and expectations should win. They haven't picked up the points in them. And now it flips. And Chelsea and United, both of whom are above Liverpool, have kindlier fixtures between now and March. There's a decent chance that if Liverpool keep on playing the way they are, they're out of Champions League contention by the start of March. And that is when Arna Slott has a real problem. Does he have a problem tonight if Everton beat Leeds and go within a point of them? Yeah, I think he's got a problem full stop. There's a whole load of teams that are kind of within two or three points of Liverpool.

41:10They play Newcastle at the weekend, then City at home, got Sunderland and Forest away. It's very hard to see Liverpool winning any of those games the way they're playing, and that will be a real problem for them. Yeah, that's it. They're at home to Newcastle at the weekend, City at home, Sunderland away, Forest away, and then West Ham at home and Wolves away. that takes them to the beginning of March. A final one on Liverpool, and only because you mentioned him, Chris, and I had a Liverpool fan say this to me over the course of the weekend yesterday, I think, that Van Dijk needs to spend less time trying to look imperious and cool and that he can deal with anything and just defend a bit better.

41:52Is that fair? No, I don't think that that is fair. I don't think you can actually have a pop at a player for looking confident and his word was imperious and having a presence. He just needs to defend better than he has and make better decisions. I mean, was it the first Bournemouth goal where he hesitated? Well, that was what the fan was referring to. Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't think in that moment the fan you know, you know, Virgil van Dijk was thinking, oh, it's more about how I look and I've got to make sure my shoulders are back and what have you. No, but I don't think they meant literally how he looks.

42:31I think, oh, I'm going to try and bring it down rather than wallop it. But Chris's whole career, he's played like that. He's very confident in what he does. I think some players are like that a little bit in terms of, if I compare, say, Ruben Diaz to Virgil van Dijk, they are two different types of centre-halves. Ruben Diaz in every action, he's shouting at someone, he's body position, he's really, really intense. and that brings really good positives from a centre-half point of view but then Van Dijk brings something else because he has got that class, he's got that ability to kind of calm people down and I'm going to stick up for him in the sense of I think in terms of Liverpool and how they play, I do feel as though he has been left vulnerable in situations that he shouldn't really, that we wouldn't have seen last year in terms of players running at him, in terms of them being outnumbered at the back.

43:21I think of course Liverpool defensively haven't got the numbers to be able to rotate and keep people sharp. And I think he's played pretty much every single game. And I think the fan is probably a little bit harsh, but I understand when Liverpool are in this moment, I think Chris mentioned in terms of they're a bit boring to watch because I think we all associate Liverpool Football Club as this team that plays fast football. Every time they get it, it's about trying to score as many goals as possible, whereas they're trying to change the style. And it's just not suiting. And also when players are not in form, it doesn't all come together.

43:53Name a Dutch player who has never looked like they've had a swagger. All Dutch players, they have that sort of presence like they would eat themselves. That's just a Dutch thing. They're a confident lot. There was a winner at Leeds who was really bad. I can't remember what his name is. He wants misjudged the dribble so badly that he ran halfway up the family stand. I can't remember what his name is.

44:16The mid-90s. It'll come to me. Glenn something, maybe. I think Steph mentions the lack of defensive options. there will be a lot of criticism of Slott, there has been I think his job has to be under scrutiny, that's natural but it's worth just making the point that Liverpool don't have a manager they have a head coach, there are people responsible for recruitment who have left Slott with a squad that is very clearly imbalanced it's expensive but there wasn't nearly enough cover in various positions they should be under scrutiny too So you're talking about their Richard Hughes? Richard Hughes and Michael Edwards and to be honest I find it very odd given the injury to Bradley Did anybody say that at the start of the season?

44:57I think there was to be fair I think there was a sense of hang on this looks top heavy I think there was an awareness that Liverpool squad was not as deep as Arsenal certainly but you're right they sold a lot of players but they spent a lot of money I think it seems slightly unfair to me that Slott gets all of the the manager the head coach still takes all of the blame and the responsibility when they don't have all of the power that feels like a slightly strange situation to be in. The fact that Liverpool seem to have decided they're not recruiting in January, given the injuries, which are not, there's not a huge number of them, but they're significant, I think is mad.

45:32We just have five minutes to do handball and VAR, which is good, isn't it? Three games, three different handball shouts, all with different outcomes. Do you agree with the referee at City? We did this for final score and when I first saw Rip Trappers, I thought it was going to be a penalty because we've seen some of these in the Premier League this season. I applaud him for going and kind of standing his ground that he didn't think it was a penalty, but I think the problem is that the inconsistency of the rule and how people interpret it, that's the problem that we have in the Premier League at this moment in time.

46:05So it goes from City v Wolves not being a penalty, but then Tristel Palace v Chelsea, it then becomes a penalty and he has to have this big, long explanation. How is that even helping? Why did you think it was a penalty at City? Just because his arm was out? It's because he's armed now, but I understand from a player's point of view why his arm is out. He's trying to stop Mamouche cutting on the inside. It's not because of the ball. He's not trying to stop the ball. He's trying to stop the player. So that's why I thought, actually, I understand from a player's point of view, I would be mad if that was given against me, but I've seen it given this season.

46:36So then that's where you're trying to think about what you think you should give, and that's where you get so much confused. There were two Premier League referees in that VAR booth that sent him to the screen there. Both of them Premier League referees. It was Darren England, and I think, off the top of my head, I think it was Sam Barrett was alongside him, and they sent the referee in his first Premier League game to the screen, which you could interpret as a slight power play, bearing in mind, Chris, we've talked about these things before. Why have you got a win? That's an assumption. It is an assumption.

47:08What I enjoyed earlier is when you said when he had his arm out, you actually moved your arm out. Right, okay, well. Just for people watching on iPlayer or YouTube. It was good, yeah. Enjoyed that. It was instinctive. I'm with Steph, actually. I actually thought that his arm was out, and everybody's definition of that, when the arm is out of the silhouette, it should have been a penalty. And again, I quite like the way he handled it, but these are subjective calls, and there will always be arguments about that. I don't necessarily think that... I mean, I get what you're saying, that they half threw him under the bus, but I suppose in that situation we'd all do the same thing with the young, talented referee, by all accounts, first game.

47:51Ah, let's test him out. Let's see what he's got. So I don't mind that. You are a horrible man at times. No, but we would do that. So if you were VAR, if you were VAR and I was referee in my first game, you'd send me to the screen about seven times, would you, to test me out? And if Rory was sitting next to me, we'd be nudging each other. Come on. Let's get him over. Come on. Did you think there was a little bit of chippiness? Who was the referee at Palace? That was Darren. So Darren England, who sent the ref to the screen at City, was then the referee at Palace. He did not want to give that penalty?

48:31No. It was very obvious from what he said that he did not want. The Parra were very much, by all accounts, saying to him, it has denied a goal-scoring opportunity. And this is where yesterday's, I mean, goodness me, all sorts of confusion then came forth then. As everybody trying to somehow get their head around a rule with conflicting information coming from different people involved in the decision-making. Well, it was really interesting that he explicitly said it was accidental on the pitch. which I'm not sure, and I've not been to every Premier League down this season, but I'm not sure I've heard a referee do that before and say, it sounded very much like he was qualifying it.

49:09It sounded an awful lot like when your mum's told you to do something, but you don't really want to do it. Do you know what I mean? He's like, well, look, they're saying it was a handball. I'm not, you know, it's not on me. I don't really think, I don't really think it is. It was accidental. Does that mean technically it's not a handball? No. So here's the thank goodness for Dale Johnson on the BBC Sport website is all I can say in the end. it boils down to a slight difference between denying a goal scoring opportunity on the one hand and what constitutes handball as well so ifab have a little q a section on their on on their website where you can test if you've got a spare hour or two you can test yourself on the uh on football rules anyhow so they ask the question a player prevents the ball from going into their own goal with the hand or arm but doesn't deliberately handle the ball and does not make their body unnaturally bigger the answer is this is not a handball now then there was a law change in 2024 where a law was modified by ifab for denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity and the law reads there where a player denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal scoring opportunity by committing a non-deliberate handball offense and the referee awards a penalty a kick, the offender is cautioned, i.e.

50:27not a red card. But the confusion here is it has to be an offence. In other words, making the body unnaturally bigger. Do we get that? Not really. Can you read out again? No, I can't do it again. But therefore, it's not a Dale Johnson's article on the BBC Sport website. He hasn't made his body unnaturally bigger. Therefore, it is not an offence, even though it is or could have been heading towards the net. And the bigger point here, Steph, is they've made everything such a mess and complicated that to try and get to what the right answer is, I don't care whether you're a ref or a pundit or a player or a journalist, is nigh on impossible.

51:08Well, it says a lot that the four of us have, you've just read that out and we're all like, so what does that mean? It's just so confusing and I think if you get, it is subjective and whoever's reading them rules and who's guessing, then it changes from one game to the next and that's frustrating and I think those that have played the game, I think what is he supposed to do when he's in that moment there, when he's trying to block the ball in terms of his hands down by his side and it is probably an unnatural position for him as a defender because he's so used to probably putting his arms out of balance but now all the defenders are putting their hands so close but yet you still get penalised.

51:42It's baffling and even the explanation of it all, I think, I was listening to him going, is it going to be a pen or is it not? And he said it was a penalty and then he was like, but! and I'm thinking, oh my God, if you're in the crowd, you must be thinking, it's not going to be a pen here. But then he just gives it anyway. So it's just, yeah, ultimately really, really confusing. We were binging the traitors over the weekend and I won't do any spoilers, but you know how at the end when they're announced as traitors, they sometimes go, I'm a true faithful. It was a bit like that, but for a penalty in front of 30 ,000 people.

52:12I'll have boards next time, soon it's a penalty. Well, give each referee a little chalkboard. That would be amazing. Over till next week. No penalty and then a little heart that they all seem to draw as well. But penalty would have to be spelt wrong. I mean, the final thing on that as well, how do you get a yellow card for something that is accidental? And therefore, you haven't done anything deliberately, Chris, but you still get booked. I mean, that is nonsense. Yeah, that is. No, to be fair, you can get booked for a challenge that's clumsy even if you haven't done it intentionally, can't you?

52:52Yes, I suppose so. But I would argue that's equally nonsensical. The whole situation was ridiculous. Dave has sent us an email on Dutch footballers that didn't have swagger. I'm not sure about this. Dirk Kite, he said. No, Dirk Kite had no swagger at all. And that's what made him charming. Really? No swagger in the slightest, no. He has bustle. We still haven't discovered the Leeds Dutch winger who dribbled. I know the name but I now feel guilty because I'm sure he's a really nice man. You've done it now. You've got to see it now. Come on. So he dribbled down the touchline into the family stand.

53:24It wasn't a Leeds player, it was an Arsenal player. Glenn Helder. Glenn Helder. He was an Arsenal winger who sort of leapfrogged over the touchline at the road once and ran half over the family stand. He was definitely Dutch, was he? He was definitely Dutch. That's it for this week. Thank you to Chris, Rory and Steph.

53:45mano