MNC: Can De Zerbi save Spurs & is Tuchel’s mind made up?

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30:01on 5 Live Sports. This is the Monday Night Club with Mark Chapman. On the Football Daily Podcast. England play Japan tomorrow in their last match before Thomas Tuchel announces his squad for this summer's World Cup. John Murray has spoken to him today. Before we hear from him, are more players withdrawing? John? Yes, there's quite a lot of focus, as you can imagine, on the Arsenal players, Declan Rice and Bukayo Saka, who withdrew from the squad. So that means that four Arsenal players have pulled out of the England squad during this window, which means that in total, 10 Arsenal players have withdrawn from the various international squads.

30:47However, as Thomas Tuchel said to us today, he can only talk about the England players. And obviously, Aberici Ezza withdrew immediately after the League Cup final wasn't able to play in that. We know about his injury. He's going to be out for a period of time. We saw Nani Madweke pick up the injury that he did in the Uruguay match. He left Wembley in a leg brace. And on Declan Rice and Bukayo Saka, Thomas Tuchel said to us today, they have had medical assessment. They wanted to play. He said they were clearly in discomfort. Although he did say, if it had been the last match of the season, and if it had been a final, then maybe they would have played.

31:30But he said they will all be out for some days. So he could only talk about those Arsenal players from his experience. OK, let's hear it from him. Very good camp, very good atmosphere. Unfortunately, we suffered some injuries, like suffer from some injuries from the game and even from the guys who came a bit later into camp. But that's what it is. all the players who are available are in good shape, good atmosphere and ready to go. And what is the balance that you're thinking of for the Japan match, bearing in mind you've brought in the nine players, but it is the last chance, isn't it, for those who are here to stake a claim in an England shirt?

32:12Yeah, last chance for everyone. Yeah, but, you know, sometimes the reality of it is, like, we have, of course, we have a picture of the players and we see them. So it is a last chance. It's just a reality and we want to take the chance. We want to have a good performance. We prepare them in the best way possible and we will push them. It's very likely that we bring new legs, fresh legs on the pitch who haven't started the first match. So to share the load, we have a chance to involve a lot of substitutes because we have 10 changes possible in three slots. So we will push, we will push. We want to try.

32:49We want to have a physical game. We want to have an entertaining game. and we want to be on the front foot. But at the same time, we have a clear picture of a player. Not everything is decided tomorrow, so you can play with freedom and to express yourself. So Japan have agreed to the maximum number of substitutions, as they did during the Scotland match. At the same time, it does really disrupt the match, doesn't it? Or is it more important for people to be on the pitch? No, it doesn't. I have a different view, it doesn't, because we don't have 10 slots to do one change each, that would disrupt the match, but we have the same amount of slots, and if you change three players or five in a slot, where's the big difference?

33:33Not so much, it's a bit easier, maybe not so easy for the players to adapt to the many changes, but the flow of the game is not disrupted by the number of the substitutes. It's good for us, I like it, because it gives us a chance to take care of the players, that's what we want we can push we can play more intense because we have the chance after 60-70 minutes to change and to impact the match from the bench and to give the players the best load possible Do you agree with him Steph at the end there? All those substitutions massively disrupt the flow of matches don't they? Yeah it does and even if you're that player that's coming on it takes you 5-10 minutes to get into the rhythm of the game but I think that was the case the other night in terms of when we played Uruguay.

34:20I think already there's a lot of changes in the start XI, but of course then you're bringing subs on. And I think even though the way that he's saying in terms of, that Tuchel's saying in terms of the squad selection, as a player, when he gets that last camp before selection, you do feel that pressure. That's just a natural thing. No matter what you're doing with club, when you put that England shirt on, you do feel you have to perform in that game because it might be the only chance that you get. So would you be surprised if the atmosphere is as good as he's saying it is? I think in terms of what he wants from an England team I mean we've seen that with Gareth Southgate I think that's been a big improvement from England is that everybody now wants to go and play at England the team togetherness seems very very good I think people want to go and enjoy the camp but of course football's competitive and these boys start for top top clubs in the Premier League and in Europe.

35:16So, of course, there's going to be a competitive nature and I'm sure come tomorrow, everybody will be wanting to impress. Ashley, do you like, from a player's point of view, has he tried to whittle this down and manage minutes and give people chances and look at who he wants in certain positions? Is he managing it as well as can be expected, do you think, from a player's point of view? From the player's point of view, yeah, because it seems like everyone's getting a fair crack at it and everyone's got minutes on the pitch. He's seen them with his own eyes in training. So from a player's point of view, I don't see where you probably wouldn't have any arguments with that.

35:55Whether you get selected or not, you feel like you've had your chance. It's not like he didn't select you for the ones that you selected. But I think it does disrupt the match, to go back to what you said. It definitely disrupts the match when you bring on so many players. But from his point of view, probably because he doesn't have to make 10 separate substitutions, that's what he's probably saying. It's easier for him to just do it in three slots, however many players. But from a player's point of view, I think it's difficult because you're always thinking he knows. Even I'm thinking Thomas Tuchel knows probably the whole squad that he's taking.

36:31I can't imagine someone's going to turn around tomorrow and do something, and he turns around and goes, oh, let's take it. You think he knows his... Yeah. Sorry, how many is it, John? 25? 26 You think he knows he's 26? Yeah I do, I think he's definitely made a list of his 26 and I don't think it would change because what can someone do in a game that changes his mind? I'm not sure what they could do Why are you scowling Chris?

36:55Chris Sutton:I wasn't going to scowl, it's my normal face I agreed I agree with Ash I think he knows who he's going to take, I think he's just trying to look for positives Mark with the substitution thing. I think these games, quite frankly, are a bit of a stinker for Thomas Tuchel, really. And I think he's handled the injury situation really well. I mean, I'd be surprised if Arsenal had 10 injured players for their next game. I think one or two maybe. That's a bit cynical of you, Chris. And he's, yeah. Not for the first time this evening. But why get involved in all that stuff? Everybody knows what's going on.

37:40Chris Sutton:He's managed at club level and been successful. He understands what's going on and players are in a title race. And also the need for players who have played so many minutes this season and they need a little bit of rest. I think he's handled the situation really, really well. Sorry, John, did you get the impression that he knows who he's taking already? Pretty much. He talked about how, So I think the phrase he used today was he's got a few headaches coming. But he certainly knows the bulk of them. And in actual fact, he said to us of the 11, this split squad, the 11 who were dudes join, as it turned out, it's only nine of them.

38:22But he effectively said last week that if the plane was leaving, that 11 would be on the plane. And I think in the team that starts tomorrow, the expectation would be that most of those nine would probably be in the starting lineup. So in terms of opportunities for the other members of the squad to show for the last time in an England shirt what they can do for him, time is probably going to be limited. And actually, when you think about it, what happens from now to the end of the season, the remaining Premier League matches, those who are involved in Champions League, FA Cup, those are probably the moments that will help them to force his hand.

38:58And rather than what happens in this match against Japan, And when also, incidentally, Japan, who played Scotland on Saturday, they'll probably change most of their team as well. If he knows he's 26, John, like, for example, in his head, he knows whether he's going to take all of Bellingham, Rogers, Foden and Palmer, does he? I would have thought so. I think it'll be interesting, actually, to see what Palmer does tomorrow, what role he plays, if he's in the starting line-up. Because, you know, there's such strong competition in that area. but of course, we talk about this, does he know he's 26?

39:36But he's got to be ready for all eventualities. There might be a plague of right backs, which means that Trent Alexander-Arnold does actually get into the picture. He's got to be prepared for all of the players that he could potentially lose. Let's hear from one of the men we expect to be definitely on the plane, Elliot Anderson. Missed the first game against Uruguay. He's been talking to Ian Dennis. Thomas Tuchel was asked last week about the 11 players who were arrested would they be going to the World Cup

40:06Jack Pitt-Brooke:to which he said if the World Cup was next week then the answer would be yes how satisfying is that to know that the England manager

40:14Chris Sutton:has already said that you're that far down the line yeah it's really nice to hear that I think but the World Cup isn't next week so I've still got plenty of work to do I've got the end of the season to focus on and keep my standards high and stay fit. It says everything, though, about you, the fact that in the space of, what, six games, you've already established yourself in his thinking, though, doesn't it? Yeah, it's definitely a good thing. So I got given my chance in September, I think it was, and, yeah, I'd like to think I took it and I've took everything in my stride and I'm really happy with how it all went.

40:55Chris Sutton:Yeah. And how was the rest? Yeah, it was really nice. I got off to Spain and enjoyed a bit of sun for a few days and just chilled out. That would have been a shock to the system coming back to this weather then. Yeah, it was. It's been freezing. Was it important though, not just from a physical point of view, but mentally to have that rest? Thomas Tuchel's been talking about that in the press conference today. Yeah, 100%. I think just sort of resetting your mind and chilling out and relaxing and not always having a game to focus on in the next few days. But, yeah, I'm back into it right now, and I'm fully focused on tomorrow.

41:32When you look at that midfield, then, who would your third one be in it, Chris? If you've got Anderson and Rice who are nailed on, who's your third one?

41:42Chris Sutton:Well, that's the great debate. I know, that's why I'm asking you. That's the idea of the show. Yeah, I know. You always ask me the most difficult ones, don't you, first. I would... Who would the third one be? well, would Bellingham be the third one? I don't know, I'm asking you. He's got reservations about him. Could it be, what, are you talking about a number 10 or is he playing one or two? Well, I don't know, you tell me what. Oh, for crying out loud. John, what's he doing? Is he playing a three? Is he playing a 10? What's he doing? Blimey. I think, to use again the phrase, if the World Cup was starting tomorrow, it would be Morgan Rodgers because Bellingham's not fit enough to play.

42:21Now, when it comes to the actual crunch and the first match in the World Cup for England against Croatia in June, will it be Bellingham? Will it be Rodgers? That's what we wait to find out. And that's why I mentioned Cole Palmer as well, because he has to come into the equation too. I mean, the expectation would be it would be Bellingham, but Rodgers has played so well. And when this team got into the groove that we'd been waiting for in the autumn under Thomas Tuchel in that qualifying group. It was Rodgers, Anderson and Rice that were the three that really clicked together. I feel as though...

43:02Go on, Chris. No, no, hang on, Chris. You've had your chance. Shut up. You've had your chance. Sorry, Chris. I think if he plays Anderson and Rice, I think he'll play Rice a little bit deeper. So I think to play Bellum in that tent, it would probably suit England more because there's that freedom to link up with Kane and run him beyond. But I think you're right in terms of what you said, John, in terms of Rodgers has got the shirt at this moment in time because it's a performance for England, but also for Villa. But I think if you get a fully fit Jude Bellenham by the time June comes, I think it would be so tempting not to start Jude, if I'm being honest.

43:37And another thing as well with the midfield, this is about tomorrow night. I think it's, you know, whether he might have a look with Rice not being there at O 'Reilly in the midfield position. I mean, it might be that O 'Reilly plays the left back, But he's got Hall who could start at left-back tomorrow, potentially. And O 'Reilly, last match he played, scored two goals at Wembley in the League Cup final. And we know that he can play in that position. But there's Kobimenu as well, who came on as a substitute on Friday night. Maybe he would like to see him in that position. The other thing here, Ashley, and John can tell me if I'm wrong, he insinuated, didn't he, that Maguire would be the fifth-choice centre-half at the moment?

44:19I thought he said fifth. I thought he had Concer, Gay, Stones. Chalabar. And Chalabar, yeah, for Chalabar's versatility. But Maguire would be the fifth. Is that slightly harsh for you, Ashley, or does that make sense? Nah. Well, that's in my opinion, with the experience that he brings, you've got to feel like he comes across like he's a good personality to have. I keep talking about when you go away at international tournaments, it's not all about just taking the 26 best players that you can find. You need to have good personalities in there because you're living together every day and it sometimes gets monotonous and sometimes it gets boring and sometimes you need a pick-me-up.

45:06You need good personalities, you need good characters, you need leaders, you need positive people around the group. I think Harry Maguire fits into all of those. So whereas he might not start, I don't know, does he start, he starts Gehi and then does he start Stones or Consul, whoever it might be. But I would want Maguire travelling with my squad before, say, a Chalabra, for example, just because of what he brings off the field. Is it in his head?

45:34Chris Sutton:Is Stones too big a risk as well, injury-wise? I mean, that's, you know, I heard Tuchel talk about Stones. He's talking him up. You know what a great player he is. but is it four Premier League starts this season? He's started twice in the last four months, two FA Cup matches. But I did say to him, Chris, last week, as we had on Thursday night, talking about John Stones, because that's at the point where we found that he said, Thomas Tuchel, he turned up for this squad fit, but then felt something. And clearly, he might have been captaining England on Friday night, had he been fit. but I did say to him, do you need to know that he's 100 % fit if you're going to select him to go in the World Cup squad?

46:19And he said, I guess so, yes. Is his feeling though, John, that with the others ahead of Maguire, that they are all, I mean, look, you can understand how gay he's ahead of Maguire, but with the others, do they all provide a bit more versatility? is that what he's thinking or how he might deploy Stones or how he might deploy Concert or Chalabar as well if he needs them they're not just a centre half whereas I suppose Maguire is out and out a centre half and you're not going to play him anywhere else are you? Yeah, he knows very well what Maguire can do however he'd not had Maguire in his England squad either because of injury because of the fact that he wasn't regularly playing for Manchester United But as we know now, he is playing in and starting every match for Manchester United under Michael Carrick.

47:12And, you know, came in, played and as Tuchel himself said, did exactly what he would have expected from him. And when you talk about versatility, I think we do have to keep mentioning with Maguire, he is England's leading scorer as a defender. We know that the role that he can play in both penalty areas and Tuchel will be well aware of the fact that if everyone's fit, the England starting 11 will probably have Rice and Saka who take the corners for Arsenal. And if you've got Harry Maguire on the end of those, you know, it's blindingly obvious what that means. So at the end of all of that, are we basically saying tomorrow's pointless because he already knows what he's going to do?

47:52Well, I have to say, on reflection on Friday night, you know, I do ask myself the question, what am I doing it for?

48:04I asked myself the question he's left out half the squad would it be actually better not to play those matches at all and I know that's not a thing because there's a financial aspect to it they have an obligation to play international matches but in terms of preparing for the World Cup really they'd be better off having a rest wouldn't they?

48:25Chris Sutton:There were two things I took out of Friday night and you'll probably disagree but I thought you talked earlier about players playing the way out of form. I think Phil Foden may be one of those. And the other thing, a real positive on Friday night, I thought James Garner. And I know there's this, what Ashley spoke about, and I do get that, about having good characters in the group. It looks like he's going to take Jordan Henderson. I may be wrong, John. I think almost certainly. Who's the better player? Who would you rather have on footballing ability and what we've seen this season? Gardner or Henderson I know who I'd rather have Yeah but I suppose it's about putting a squad together isn't it which I think that's an important part of things with Dan Byrne I think he wants the character that is Dan Byrne in the squad and he wants the character that is Jordan Henderson in the squad Yeah but at some point at some point and that goes back to your point Ash a little bit of what Steph said as well I appreciate the character side of stuff but at some point you might need the player who's in the best form I know it's about And also how many of them do you take?

49:28If you're already taking Jordan Henderson and Dan Byrne, then is there a need to take Harry Maguire? You maybe would then argue that you're probably better off from taking Harry Maguire because realistically, he could come on and have impact if you need it in the last five, ten minutes, if you want to just put him up front and do what he's done for United a few times or for England. But I don't know. I think for me, I agree with you, Chris. I thought James Garner's been exceptional this season. I thought he was really good on Friday. I think just doing the simple things and also he takes set pieces.

50:01His delivery is really, really good, but also he has that little bit of bite in midfield like Anderson does. And I think we've missed that, especially with the likes of Calvin Phillips, who isn't anywhere near the England squad. That's what he brought in the Euros and in that whole midfield row. And he could potentially do that. When you went to a tournament, Ash, did you ever think someone else was in the squad just because they were a good bloke? if I did I wouldn't tell you who it was anyway Chappers as if I would do that as if I would do that to you Ashley so there was someone yeah

50:37no I think that I just think it's important but like to go back to what Chris said this is what Thomas Tuchel has to decide with the wealth of players the quality players that he's got can you get a player like if you're taking Dan Byrne it's Dan Byrne or Harry Maguire but as he didn't mention I don't think he mentioned Dan Byrne in those comments so I'm just guessing it's Harry Maguire next that's why he's saying not Dan Byrne but you also want someone that you think can affect the game you're not just taking a sparring partner to just spar all the way through the tournament you want people there that can also go and affect the game of football but I just think it's...

51:21If you can get someone that's a good personality as well, the more people that are just going to get on with it, I think Harry Maguire seems like that type of person. He's not really going to moan if he's not playing. He just gets on with it. OK. We will leave John to his self-doubt ahead of tomorrow night. Full commentary. Yes, full commentary, John. Yes. Yes. With the possibility of 11 substitutions on both sides. Full commentary of that huge game. Live from Wembley tomorrow night. all the build-up from seven. Kick-off at, John? 7.45. 7.45. Thank you. Let's turn our attentions to Bristol City in the Championship, who have announced that Roy Hodgson, at 78, will take charge until the end of the season after they sacked Gerhard Struber.

52:07Julien Laurens:I think it was the fact that it was a short-term project, a short-term appointment after the club made their decision to change. I think they were looking for someone who could step in and was prepared to do a job for seven games. And of course that appealed to me because I have retired from the real milestone of working as a professional coach again. But I thought that I could manage five weeks and I might even look forward to the five weeks, which has been the case so far. I can only thank the ball and Charlie for thinking of me and asking me to come in.

52:47Jack Pitt-Brooke:Is there any potential for it to be longer term at all?

52:50Julien Laurens:No. No, I'm too old. When first Richard Scudamore got in touch with me to ask if it could even be a possibility and to put me in touch with Charlie, who then pursued it, it was always on the basis that we'd like you to come in and work like we think you do work for this five-week period and that at the end of it, I hope they will have found their new sporting director, found their new manager and the club will go from strength to strength that's my hope and I hope to get some enjoyment from being here to re-energise myself a little bit by being back on the grass and being back with players, something which has always been what I've wanted to do because I must say that I didn't come into football to do press conferences, I came into football to do work with players and I made it clear to them today that I hope we're going to enjoy our time working together.

53:48Julien Laurens:But I also, I think, made it fairly clear early on that, unfortunately, the only way we're going to get any enjoyment is if we become better at what we're doing and win matches. So I think I've made that fairly clear as well. I'm not here just for a ride. I'm here because I hope that I'll be able to do what Charlie and the board have brought me in to do. Bristol City's, and that was Roy Hodgson, by the way, speaking to the BBC's Alistair Durden. And then Bristol City's statement, Ashley said, Roy's appointment is about more than the results of the next seven games. Over the remainder of the season, he will help us set the standards and values at the club that we will need to be successful going forward.

54:28He will support our players and our football staff as we build towards achieving our potential. How do you assess the statement alongside his appointment? Well, what I think is that it sounds to me like they wanted to get Roy Hodgson in to almost teach that whole football. This is a football club that's been ready for the Premier League for years, never made it, a big city. And coming off Gerhard Struber, they obviously started the season not too bad, looking to get in at least the playoffs. They can't do that now. they can't get relegated. It's almost like they've put Roy Hodgson in charge to almost teach the whole football club, up and down, players and above him, the standard of what he expects, like a Premier League standard, a top-level manager standard, and how to run the football club.

55:26That's what it sounds like to me. He's going to bring back the standards or he's going to introduce standards at this football club that we need to go to the Premier League because they've obviously not done it in so many attempts. Chris, Mark on the BBC Sport website put this message up there. It seems a pointless appointment. Bristol City cannot go up or down. I have respect for him, but he will not be manager for the 2026-27 season at 78.

55:54Chris Sutton:Yeah, I mean, Roy was my manager at Blackburn. I think he's a brilliant coach. I learned so much from him. he probably didn't learn a lot from me. And I admire him. I admire him taking the job, and I do. But this is really backward thinking from Bristol City. And I get what Steph and Asher are saying about, you know, maybe they, you know, it's like a school which is in a complete mess and you get an Ofsted inspector in to run the school and try and straighten out or whatever. They shouldn't be going down this route. why not give somebody an audition? I mean, so the issue, I mean, they had a good manager in Struber as far as Ash would maybe know the club better than me.

56:41Chris Sutton:But by all accounts, they sold a couple of their best players in January where they were pushing and they've fallen away. They're not going to go up. They're 12 points off the playoffs. They're 12 points off Leicester City as well, who were in the bottom three. So they're going to be safe. So while Roy is a good coach and, you know, he'll see the season off, The fact that he said he was too old in the press conference and wasn't going to carry on next season regardless, I mean, that's just backward thinking from Bristol City. They should have given somebody maybe this short period of games, a little interim period, and maybe get a bit of confidence in the team and the squad and have ideas on next season and look forward to next season.

57:27Chris Sutton:But they aren't doing that. Roy will just see out this season and then go back to his cribbage. I don't. Did he play cribbage at Blackburn? I don't know. No. No? No, he didn't. It's a good game, though, cribbage. It is a good game, cribbage. Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure. What is cribbage? It's like a card game. Oh, come on. It's a card game, Ashley. Have you never played it? Never. Tell you what, I mean, this will be bringing in an even younger audience on the BBC Sports YouTube channel at the moment. They'll be loving this. When you look at the interim managers that are in existence at the moment, O 'Neill at Celtic, Carrick at United, Rau at Leicester, Michael O 'Neill at Blackburn.

58:06Obviously, we had Igor Tudor at Tottenham, Lee Clarks at Rotherham, Neil Warnock's at Torquay. Is it all these clubs and some of these clubs are in danger of being relegated? Some are in a title race. Some are in a promotion race. there's a real mix there is this just is this a trend at the moment for I don't know, you could say stop gaps couldn't you just try and either get us up or keep us up and then we can reset, is that what they're all doing? It seems like that and I think obviously, say for example, Michael Carrick at Manchester United, that it did seem that he was going to be there for a stop gap and just kind of have that stability for Manchester United so they knew who they were going to appoint in the summer.

58:51But I don't think anybody expected how well he would do in the influence that he's had. So that's the risk that clubs take when you have an interim manager because you don't actually realise the effect that it could potentially have on the players in the club, especially if it's a positive one. Whereas Spurs have gone through that negative kind of experience of an interim manager, now they're going to have to appoint another manager. So I think stopgap, whatever you want to kind of call it, is something that's going to just wait until another further decision's made down the line. I mean, that is it.

59:21It's also that impression of kicking the can down the line, isn't it? Yeah, but I think, I mean, my thoughts on it are a little bit like, instead of backing someone and backing them through the rough times as well, you just, they just get rid of, everybody just gets rid of managers so quick these days, so quick to the turnover of managers is insane compared to what it used to be. So it's almost like now they've gone a step further and said, we're actually not going to appoint a permanent manager. We just want to try this one out for a little bit and see if he can get over the line and then we can move on from him if that doesn't work.

59:56Instead of saying, no, actually, we'll put all our eggs in this basket and if it gets a little bit rough, we'll stick with him. Because of the pressure so much now, it's from us, from the fans, from everybody. If you're having a little bit of a rough period, three or four games, you're out the door these days. And before, you was given time to see that out. So I just think now they've gone a step further and said, in fact we won't even appoint someone because we're not willing to back him and put our name to him we'll actually just see how he does for a little bit Steph, Ashley, Chris thank you very much next episode of the Football Daily will be the debrief with Kelly reflecting on England's friendly with Japan

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