MNC: Iraola’s fitness conundrum, can Rashford succeed at United?

23:23Chris Sutton:Well, pretty seamless because Maresca has worked under Pep. I mean, of course, I think that he will, I don't know whether he'll come under the most scrutiny of the new managers, but because of what Pep achieved, I think we all know the way that Enzo Mareska likes to set his team up. He likes to be possession orientated. He'll play out from the back. He'll play through the thirds. I think the biggest thing for Manchester City is whether they're able to, I don't know if there's been any news today, hold on to Rodri. I really do. You think about he's the best player at the World Cup. I know they've got Elliot Anderson in, who's an exceptional talent.

24:01Chris Sutton:I think he's a brilliant signing. But, you know, the expectation from City fans, there'll be a disappointment with the way that they finished last season. They'll expect to really challenge Arsenal this season. So if you lose, I mean, they've already lost, you know, the likes of John Stone to Bernardo Silva. If they lost the heartbeat of that midfield, Rodri, I think that would be a massive blow. And you'd have to make Arsenal pretty strong favourites, I think, for the title. Is he from someone that knows Manchester City that's around it a lot? Yeah, I saw their game against Atletico yesterday and it very much looked like a Pep side in terms of the way they played.

24:40They pressed the way that, you know, Pep finished off the season. Last season in a 4-2-4, there was a little tweak. The wingers started to press the keeper and tuck inside and the full back shifts round. So there will be little things that we notice, you know, throughout the course of the season when Enzo Maresca does get his fingerprints all over the team in terms of exactly how he wants them to look and how he wants them to be. But I think I always say back to the Man City methodology that, you know, deeply ingrained within the club is that the players that they have within that team, the depth within the squad allows the manager to be tactically very versatile.

25:17And I do think Maresca will start to sort of tweak a few things and there's little, you know, whether he's going to be more direct than Pep. Pep played a very methodical, contained style of football. He wasn't like that at Chelsea, though, was he?

25:32Chris Sutton:No, he wasn't. No, he wasn't. He was slightly different in the way that he played, a little bit more open. But I think the team, and like I was saying about the players, they're ingrained to play a certain way. And it always relies on ball retention and fluidity and creativity in the final third. And notoriously, teams drop off against City, so they have to come up with answers. And being a little bit more direct initially, I think will always benefit City because they've got players, namely Erling Haaland, to be a little bit more direct. And I think you make a great point, Chris, about Rodri.

26:07He's a player we know. His anchoring of the midfield is just outstanding. And I do think, though, Elliot Anderson, if Rodri does leave, I think Elliot Anderson could be an instant hit with, firstly, City fans. And I think in terms of slotting into that role in midfield, that allows them to be creative and leave those spaces behind because he's got the legs to cover ground, as we saw out in America at the World Cup. Sammy, I know you're on holiday, so I'm not going to put you on the spot and ask for the exact latest on Rodri. But if you've got it, of course, quickly. I think you're all right to ask me.

26:35Never fully on holiday, are you? Yeah, look, those discussions are ongoing. I think if all the indications are to be believed at the moment, that Rodri will become a Barcelona player before the window closes. But City are the kind of club that prepare for this, aren't they? They knew that probably this was going to happen and they're doing their own business accordingly. So as we've already sort of established, the signing of Elliot Anderson earlier this summer certainly bolsters their midfield and gives them, I'm not saying an absolute light for light for Rodri, but someone who is adept at anchoring a midfield.

27:15But also, I think he can offer maybe a bit more bursting forward. And they are also in talks over signing Bouadi, the exciting Tunisian midfielder who plays for Lille. And that's another deal I expect to move in the coming days. And again, all the indications that I'm receiving at the moment, and I think BBC Sport are receiving at the moment, is that City believe that they are well-placed to get that deal over the line probably before the start of the season. So if Barcelona can reach that threshold that City want and can reach the kind of money that City are asking for, I think if you connect the dots, Rodri will end up at Barcelona and Bouadi will end up at Manchester City.

28:03And it's interesting where this kind of leaves Arsenal, I think as well, because they're one of the few top teams that have got the stability. Mikel Arteta, of course, has been at the club now for six and a half years and they'll start this season as Premier League champions. But on last week's Monday Night Club, we were talking about their attempts to recruit Vinicius Junior from Real Madrid. A few days later, it was, of course, confirmed they'd failed. He's got a new six-year deal at the Bernabeu that kind of leads to the question, is there a case where the Premier League aren't able to attract the world's best players at their peak?

28:35Or do you think that's a bit harsh, Izzy? Oh, I was going to say, if you didn't say the last bit of that question at their peak, I would say we've had De Bruyne, Haaland, Mo Salah, just to name three, you know, in recent years. And it's an interesting one. Personally, I don't think Vinny Jr. is the right fit for Arsenal in terms of a footballing method. I think it would have been an excellent signing, you know, kind of from the outside, you know, Vinny Jr. coming to Arsenal, Premier League champions. But I think in terms of the intricacies of the way Arsenal play, I don't think it's a player they should necessarily have been going after.

29:11Chris Sutton:Why wouldn't he be the right fit? I think the way that Arsenal play, you know, they're extremely well coached. They're tight on the ball. You know, they're very methodical in their build. You know, the wingers are very, I don't want to use the word restricted, but they're very, very coached in terms of the way they play. And we've seen that with Saka, Martinelli, Trossard, you know, he's now left. I think, I don't know, I just don't know whether that flair, that Brazilian flair of Vinny Jr. would have been the right fit at Arsenal. In layman's, Izzy, you're saying that Vinny Jr. ain't tracking back.

29:40Is that basically what you're saying? Well, if you, yeah, you need to do, as PSG told us, you defend and you attack with 11 to win the Champions League. What I was going to say there, though, Izzy, is there a case that Mikel Arteta was trying to evolve his team if he did want Vinicius Jr., if reports are to be believed? Yeah, I think that's... He was looking for something different, something to maybe surprise opponents. Arsenal were doing something different other than set pieces. I know they do a lot more than that. Yeah, spot on. Like stardust, but I think they've got that in a different way in Bruno Gimarese.

30:11In the way that he gelled with the fans at Newcastle, a huge favourite. And I think the way he plays will get people off their feet in a different way to the way that Viniar Junior would. But I think Arsenal have ended up better off in this situation. Granted, not the same position to fill, but I think as well with Tzolos coming in, from Club Bruges as well, the type of player he is, I think he will thrive at Arsenal in terms of the type of player he is. So I think it's an interesting one. I'm all for the football methodology over anything on social media and stuff like that, but Vinny Junior certainly would have.

30:44Yeah, he certainly would have upped their social media following, but football's not played on Instagram, isn't it? Chris, I guess that maybe Izzy's kind of answer, has answered my initial question about, does the Premier League not suit those type of flair players? Is that why maybe sometimes players like Vinicius Junior don't come to the Premier League, these rogues?

31:03Chris Sutton:Well, I'm not so sure. I think Vinicius Junior, look, if he went to Arsenal, I think Arsenal fans would be very excited about it. By the way, so would I, to clarify. Yeah, and so would we all. I think if you asked Arsenal fans who would you rather have playing off the left-hand side, would it be Martinelli or Vinicius Junior, they'd say Vinicius Junior. But, you know, I do take Izzy's point that, you know, he's not one who really likes to work hard defensively. Maybe he'd change under Mikel Arteta. But the general point about players signing from the Galacticos to Premier League clubs, I think is, you know, is the fact that why would anybody want to leave Real Madrid?

31:47Chris Sutton:You know, Real Madrid, who is, you know, the most successful, arguably the biggest club in the world, the most successful European team of all time. I mean, that's the be-all and end-all, isn't it? And I think most players would view coming to the Premier League as a step down, whether, of course, the Premier League is stronger than La Liga, but that's still not the point. I don't know many players who would want to leave with Real Madrid in their peak. Any Premier League player, if you offered them the chance to go and play at Real Madrid, every Premier League player would jump at that. It doesn't work the other way around.

32:30The murder of Tupac Shakur has generated nearly 30 years of rumours, conspiracy theories and unanswered questions. Now the mythology is about to meet the courtroom as the trial gets underway and Nevada prosecutors try and solve the mystery of who killed Tupac. I'm Manushka Matandadavati and for the BBC's Fame Under Fire podcast, I'll be inside the courtroom every day and I'm bringing you with me. What really happened on the Las Vegas Strip that night in 1996? It's time to separate fact from fiction. Join me for Fame Under Fire, the two-part murder trial, the testimony, the arguments, the moments that matter and all the legal analysis.

33:04To get all the updates, listen and subscribe on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode.

33:12This is the Monday Nightclub with Kelly Summers

33:16Chris Sutton:on the Football Daily Podcast.

33:49We'll see you next time. market.

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34:23Focusing back in on the Premier League and Marcus Rashford, because more than 18 months since his last appearance for the club, he is, of course, back in the fold at Manchester United. Sammy, if I'd have told you this was going to be the case, just, what, 11 days out from the start of the Premier League season, just a few months ago, what would you have said to me? I would have said that there was very little chance of that, if I'm being honest, Kelly. He had a relatively successful season on loan at Barcelona last year. I think we can maybe get carried away with the level of impact that he had there last season.

34:57But I don't think we can deny that, given what had gone before at United in maybe the previous two seasons, that his performances at Barcelona last year did represent an upward trajectory. and there did appear to be certainly a place for him permanently in that squad. And I think for so long, for a number of weeks, certainly towards the end of last season, all the talk was could United and Barcelona reach an agreement that was below the option that they'd agreed for the permanent deal, for him to go there. The way it transpired was that obviously Barcelona had then turned their attention to doing this deal for Anthony Gordon, obviously Rashford's teammate and competitor for that left-hand side in the England squad.

35:48And I guess Rashford's ultimate ambition and his dream of staying at the Nou Camp vanished into thin air with that Gordon deal. Because I don't make no bones about it. Marcus Rashford thoroughly enjoyed his time at Barcelona and he wanted to stay and I think he felt settled there. I think he felt like he had been provided with a new lease of life for a career that had been a little bit stop-start at United. So Sammy, does he go back to Manchester United, Sammy?

36:19Chris Sutton:Does he go back to Manchester United, Marcus Rashford, with his tail between his legs a little bit? I don't think he goes there with his tail between his legs, but I don't think players of that stature and certainly of that quality would look at it that way. Maybe from the outside looking in, that may be the narrative. But I think he will go there confident that he can maybe recapture some of the form that saw him climb the ranks at United and become one of their key players during that post-Alex Ferguson era. But there's a lot of work to be done there, right? to I think repair his reputation.

37:00I think he almost left there with the reputation as being a bit of a busted flush. That may sound harsh, but I think there is certainly a rebuilding process that needs to be done over the course of the next few months. But I think in Michael Carrick, he's got a manager that will give him a chance. I think he's got a manager there that knows what he's got in Marcus Rashford and that if he can get a tune out of him, he's got an effective left-sided attacker who can contribute assists and goals. And if he can inspire those kind of performances that we know that he's capable of, I don't want to say this, but it would also almost be tantamount to a new signing for United if, and I stress it's a big if at the moment, if he can recapture some of that early United form.

37:48It'll be interesting, won't it, Izzy, to see how the fans do receive him. But let's not forget, he was leaving. He left a Manchester United that looks very different to the Manchester United that he's going into now. I mean, Michael Carrick, the Manchester United under Michael Carrick feels very different to Ruben Amarim's Manchester United. And Carrick was a teammate of Marcus Rashford for three seasons. So he knows what he's getting himself into, so to speak, doesn't he? And maybe it's a fresh start for everyone. Yeah, and it feels that way. And I think, you know, Marcus Rashford didn't burn bridges enough to then go back with his tail between his legs back into United this week at Carrington.

38:25And I think that, you know, I think like Sammy and Chris both alluded to, he's got so many strengths as a player that are an asset for any manager because of his pace and the gift of pace and the way he plays. and he's a transition footballer and the way that he played a few seasons ago under Ten Hag, he was on fire in terms of his goal scoring form and the amount of times he broke through defences and finished at low shots into the corners. He's a player who on his day has so much ability and that's why his lone move at Barcelona, he was then in Tuchel's World Cup squad. He had a big part to play in England's quest to get into the World Cup final and obviously they fell short, but he was a part of that.

39:08And to be in that England squad at this time, I think says a lot. And I think that he is a player that I think adds something different to what Manchester United have in those wide areas as well, with Kunja, Ahmad and Bermot as well. I think he's slightly different, adds a different dimension to that if they can find a way to re-establish what his ability is within that squad. And like you say, I think having a blank canvas with the manager in Michael Carrick and Steve Holland and the impact that we've heard that he's had on the group in terms of stabilising it and adding this level of humility and calmness around the camp.

39:44I think Marcus Rashford, if he can create a really good relationship with the coaching staff and his teammates, I think it's a completely clean slate for him and I think he could be a big hit. From a fan's perspective, he's homegrown. He's one of their own and they would never turn their back on a player of his calibre, you know, a Manchester lad. And I think there is definitely...

40:07Chris Sutton:I think a lot of fans previous were unhappy with when he was called. Let's not forget, he's been called out by his last two Manchester United managers. And it was pretty strong stuff. And, you know, you can't sort of sugarcoat it. He let himself down. I completely agree. I completely agree in a sense, but there's always two sides to every story and things didn't turn out well for Ten Hag and things didn't turn out well for Ruben Amrum. And, you know, the players had their opinions and players who have so much attachment to a football club that can feel it failing in the way we know he was late.

40:38Chris Sutton:We know he was late. You know, he likes, you know, a few of the night clubs in Manchester. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of players do. And I think that he's been, he's been in the firing line and maybe his status is because he is a homegrown lad. There is more of a brighter spotlight on him when he does make, you know, those lifestyle choices that, you know, maybe he needs a different perspective. and I couldn't think of anyone better than Michael Carrick to stabilise it and to kind of dilute the noise around Marcus Rashford and give him a platform to shine. But I completely hear you. But I would say from an outsider's perspective, I would say there aren't enough bridges burned for Marcus Rashford not to be a healthy return for him into the club if he does end up staying there in this window.

41:21Do you get the sense, Sammy, that if it hadn't been Michael Carrick that was the manager, this might have played out differently? I don't know because after the Barcelona, dream fell through for Marcus Rashford. I certainly think United would have listened to offers for Marcus Rashford. I'm not sure that they've been there yet. And we should stress, they're still two and a half weeks ago of the window and maybe this could change. But I think the fact that he has ended up as back at United and being, as it seems, being reintegrated into the United squad has been partly dictated to by the market.

42:03And I think if there were some attractive suitors for Marcus Rashford this summer, I think he would probably certainly want to have listened to those offers. I think United would probably also have wanted to have at least listened to those as well. But they are where they are. Whether or not either of them are comfortable with the situation is kind of in many ways, neither here nor there. I think they both need to make it work because he's such a, on his day, he's an asset to the team. But I think financially, United would also recognise that he's an asset as well. And if they can't get the kind of level of finance or the level of money that they'd expect for him, then, as we're seeing at the moment, they will hold on to him and try and make the most of the...

42:55from a sporting perspective, from the asset that they've got on their hands in Marcus Rashford at the moment. How does he move forward from this, Chris? Because there is obviously, as Sammy said, still time in the window. He could still depart the club and maybe that'll be a move that will suit both parties. But there's also a very real scenario that he stays and is a Manchester United player. Does he need to say anything? Does he need to post anything? Or does he just need to let his football do the talking?

43:19Chris Sutton:Does he need to post anything? On social media. Come on, Chris. I know you're a bit old. But we live in the time. Well, no, but the reason I ask that is because there was a lot of criticism, wasn't there? Or a lot of people talking when he posted on social media and thanked everyone except Manchester United, it felt like, for his England call-up. And then he was quick to say that wasn't meant to be a dig at Manchester United. Of course, social media these days is a platform, if players have a message, they can use it to get it across. Doesn't interest me. I don't think that that will interest, honestly, Manchester United fans, the real supporters.

43:52Chris Sutton:what will interest Manchester United fans will be? Which Marcus, which version of Marcus Rashford will they see? We all know, and Izzy said it and Sammy said it, on his day, both said it, on his day, he's an outstanding player. But you can't get away from the fact that he treated the last two Manchester United managers, whether it doesn't matter how well or badly they did, he treated them with a lack of respect. You would think that the fact that, I mean, they played together, Michael Carrick and Marcus Rashford you would think that there would have been some sort of relationship there Michael Carrick is an extremely intelligent guy and he knows that if he can get the best out of Marcus Rashford then he will be on to something but this is all about Marcus Rashford coming back and really knuckling down, training hard, showing the correct attitude and if he does I think that he'll be fine, more than fine and I think Manchester United will really, really benefit.

44:53Chris Sutton:But I still think that that's a big if. It's interesting, isn't it? Because it goes back to the conversation we had about Arsenal trying to find a left-sided attacker. And Sammy, they literally have one that, I'll use the phrase that's been used about 100 times in this chat, on his day is brilliant. And we saw, I think, glimpses of it for England this summer, didn't we? I mean, you know as well as I do that he went out early to train before he joined up with England at the end of the La Liga season to ensure he's in the best shape possible. So all the things that we're hearing now are that this is a Marcus Rashford in the right, in the right kind of headspace, ready to knuckle down?

45:27I think absolutely right, Kelly. And I think that is, that's certainly his mindset from what I understand. I think there is a will and a determination to make the most of the situation that he finds himself in. And I think where this helps him is that he's in familiar surroundings. it's not like he's going to another another new club to have to prove himself again Manchester United know what he can do Michael Carrick knows what he can do there are still players in that squad who have played with him who know again to use the phrase that we've all used on his day how special a player he can be and whether there is a move for him later on in the market I'm not sure there will be now but I just think that would have come to fruition listen never say never in the in the transfer window.

46:17But yeah, I think he's just got to make the most of the opportunity that he finds himself in. And I think Chris has said it and Izzy said it, that because he's got this prior relationship with Michael Carrick, I think that will leave certainly Carrick in perhaps a better situation and a better standing than Ten Hag and certainly Ruben Amarin did. Because I think it's just human nature when you've played with someone and you've got sort of a deep respect for someone, which I'm sure Marcus Rashford has for Michael Carrick, that you just won't want to let them down. And you will want to do what you can on the pitch for your former teammate and a guy that you've spilled blood, sweat and tears for on the training field and on the field of battle in the 90 minutes earlier in career.

47:09So I think he's got all of the building blocks there to make a success of his return to United. I guess it would just be, as you correctly said, Kelly, it would all be in the mindset. How does he view this situation? Does he see it as a step back or does he see it as, well, it is an opportunity to rebuild his reputation in the Premier League? Whatever happens, I get the feeling it won't be the last time we talk about it on this programme or any other. Now, on the Monday Nightclub, we're going to hear the story, and this is brilliant, of an incredible link up between a Brazilian team and an English football fan.

47:46Now, the top flight side, Curitiba, wore the name of Norwich City fan Johnny Butcher on the front of their shirts for their Saturday game. It was to show support for Johnny, who was diagnosed with motor neurone disease back in February. Now, Johnny is married to Anna Butcher, who is originally from Curitiba. And I'm delighted to say that both Anna and Johnny join us now. Hello to both of you. This is just such an incredible story and shows just how powerful sport and football in particular can be. So, Anna, firstly, can you tell us a little bit about how this Link Cup came about? Hi, everyone.

48:18Yes, of course. So I am originally from Curitiba, Brazil.

48:23Chris Sutton:And before Johnny even met me in 2022, Norwich City, which is Johnny's long life club, actually partnered up with Curitiba. and they started selling Curitiba shirts at the club and Johnny was so invested he was so interested and then when he met me and he found out I was from Curitiba he was like wow this is like fate this is meant to be I have to be a Curitiba supporter as well so all the times that Johnny went to Brazil he had on the top of his list wow I have to go to a Curitiba game but it just was never able to happen we just couldn't make it work first time it was sold out second time they They didn't have any home game.

49:03Chris Sutton:So we just kind of thought it wasn't going to happen until Kodichiba heard about our story. It must feel so incredibly special for you, Anna, given everything that you and your husband are going through. But to see his name on the shirt of the club from your hometown, something that must have just felt like it can never be possible. I know. It still feels surreal. We can't even believe the amount of messages we've been getting of people that have travelled from other states just to be at this game, hours and hours to be part of it, to be supporting us. Some players as well from Curitiba have reached out to us, including the player that fell in the hole during the game, bless him.

49:46Chris Sutton:He said it was an honour to represent Johnny on the field, on the pitch. And we still can't believe that it happened. Honestly, it's surreal. So for those of you that are just listening, you won't be able to see that both Johnny and Anna are wearing. Have you both got Brazil shirts on? We do. Yeah, I love that. That is brilliant. Yeah, they're both wearing their Brazil shirts. I wasn't sure if Johnny was actually wearing a Norwich shirt there because similar colours, of course. But Anna, can you tell us a little bit more about Johnny's condition? Yes, definitely. So Johnny was diagnosed with motor neurons disease, a very fast progressing ALS in February of this year.

50:23Chris Sutton:Johnny was only 28 years of age when he was diagnosed, and it was the most devastating news you can ever receive, especially when you're only one year and five months married. So we had just started our lives together. We had so many dreams, so many plans. And we at that moment felt like everything was being ripped from us. from us and this bucket list that Johnny has created of dreams is kind of a way to keep us going to keep us motivated and positive in the midst of the storm that we're going through. I was going to ask you about that because we've got an article on the BBC website at the moment about this bucket list and I'm told that Norwich City have also helped you tick off a lot of these wishes that your husband has got but what else is on there and what kind of things are you getting to do.

51:13Chris Sutton:Definitely. I think I'm going to let Johnny talk about the Norwich City experience because that meant the world to him. And he's even so excited that we have Chris here today. I'm sorry. I hope the reality isn't disappointing you. Yeah, I was going to say, hi, Johnny. Hi, Anna. Yeah, I've heard all about your bucket list. I heard you went into the training ground and had lunch with Philip Clement. And I know he used to be the Rangers manager I'm forgiving him with the job that he's done but Norris tell us about that oh that that was a really special experience because I've been a season ticket holder for over 20 years and just having the opportunity to see all the players up close and the coaching staff and the backroom staff was really special and the way that they really included me in their day I felt like I was part of the club which yeah as I said it was really special and a lot of the time as Norwich City fans we say that Norwich is a family club that day that I had really kind of showed that to be true the way that they treated me.

52:35Chris Sutton:I heard you were in the director's box as well and met one of your heroes Darren Huckabee. Oh yeah I did and he signed on the the first season that I had a season ticket so as a child always looked up to him and yeah that was a really special experience as well very danceworth guy and really really glad that I was able to meet him I know it must be such a difficult time Johnny but I'm so pleased to hear that football and a football club a championship football club is is making some of your dreams come true that is so incredibly special and you've got to speak to Chris Sutton as well I'm glad Chris has put a smile on someone's face this evening.

53:18Chris Sutton:Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And I grew up in Helston as well. So even more of a connection. Oh, that's where my dad used to be the teacher at the high school there. Johnny, up to Helston High School. There you go. My nanny used to live in Helston. Wow. Even more of a connection. Thank you, Johnny. Anna, it's been so lovely to speak to you, so special. and I'm just, as I said, really pleased that football is providing you with something so incredible and it certainly sounds like you've got some other incredible experiences coming up as well. So I hope you can enjoy those. Thank you so much for coming on the Monday Night Club.

53:58Thank you for having us. Thank you so much. I'm wondering if Norwich getting promoted to the Premier League might be on that bucket list as well, Chris. Maybe you'll see that. What do you think?

54:07Chris Sutton:Well, I fancy us this year. Johnny, do you? I think he might have gone. That was a yes. I can hear him from miles away saying yes, he fancies it. He fancies it. I should have asked that. when he was still on. But what a brilliant story. I could have spoken to those two all night. But that's it for the Monday Night Club this week. Thanks to Chris, Izzy and Sammy. And thank you for listening.

54:35Chris Sutton:This goes beyond what the KGB did back in the days. Conspiracy theories and the Football World Cup. Is there ever one without the other? Well, I've been digging into one of the very best back in 1994. Guy from Iraq gets a red card for a dubious tackle. I'm James Montague, and from BBC Five Live, this is Sports Strangers Crimes Presents Shadows on the Pitch. Listen on BBC Sounds.