MNC: Man City's charges verdict & England prepare in Prague

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1:06This is the Monday Night Club with Mark Chapman. On the Football Daily Podcast. Welcome to the Monday Night Club. Two huge stories with real global impact over the last week or so. you've got Manchester City and 114 of the 115 charges against them being upheld but you've also got a piece of agricultural machinery running over a player on the pitch so we'll talk about both those huge stories with very relevant people in Joe Hart and Andros Townsend Pat Nevin with us as well, mnc at bbc.co.uk 08085 909693 you couldn't wait off air Joe to get into Andros could you on this well I need to do it off air because you're not allowed to swear but it was what the f*** is going on Andros talk to me talk to me about what I'm seeing I have no idea myself Joe I don't know what do you want from me I want to know how you're innocently playing football and someone can run you over and then everything just carry on like nothing ever happened I'd like to have seen a little bit of the aftermath but I presume Hulk's just picked the thing off you and you've gone with life yeah pretty much so we were warming up at halftime joe as you do and i remember running out and thinking in my long career i've never seen a pitch roller out at halftime maybe pre-game but never at halftime but we kind of got called to warm up and i just kind of forgot about it i didn't say anything and the next thing i knew i was literally underneath it so yeah it was pretty it was very lucky that you weren't seriously injured.

2:48I mean, it went right over your leg. We were saying this last week. I mean, it wasn't like a little brush. I'm sure you had sympathy for me last week when you were discussing it. Do you know what, Andros? I had, I mean, I'm sure the tapes, if we played them back, would prove this, that I was incredibly sympathetic. And I mean, you could probably guess which member of the Monday Night Club maybe had slightly less sympathy. But I mean, it could have, in all seriousness it could have done you quite a nasty injury oh 100 and i got very fortunate i had some mri scans a few days ago and in four places it showed that i had some stress to the muscle to the tendon to the bones but thankfully no no structural damage only inflammation only swelling only bone bruising no lasting damage no stress fractures no um ligament damage so yes i I wouldn't consider myself lucky having been run over by a pitch roller, but yeah, I was very fortunate there was no lasting damage.

3:47Look at the two of them desperate to come in with questions. Go on, Pat. Go on. Number one, right, so it got one leg. I've watched it again three or four times in slow motion. You got your other leg out of the way. Had you not got the other leg out of the way, that was getting broken. Absolutely. That was mega serious. Yeah, 100%. I think I, again, I've watched it many times. if I don't fall over when I did, if I try to stay up or if I try to hold the pitch roller, again, leg is snapped. I'm very fortunate that I did fall when I did. It was still painful. It was still very serious. It was still dangerous.

4:22But thankfully, yeah, no bones broken, no ligaments damaged. Yeah, my question is, I'd imagine we're going to have a few legal debates later, but where do we stand with this, Andros? Where does this stand? This one seems a little bit clearer. Yeah. You know what, Joe? The fact that I'm OK, the fact that touch wood, there's no lasting damage. I'm not really looking. I'm not really in Thailand to be going through legal battles. I'm here to enjoy my final few years, Joe. So if I do get back playing after international break, there's no lasting damage. I'm not looking to continue any legal battles and look to gain anything from it.

5:03So we've got Andros Townsend, Joe Hart, Pat Nevin on the Monday Nightclub this evening. We'll hear from Thomas Tuchel a little later on. We'll talk Lionel Messi as well. Joe persistently keeping going with asking Andros questions so that we delay the Manchester City chat as long as possible. I mean, there is an element before Bring Joe Impact of everybody's talked about it for 72 hours. So there are very few things that can be said now that are slightly different. We haven't heard from many former Manchester City players, admittedly, But it does, it feels like a waiting game. But equally, are you surprised that it has just given, you have had various roles within football, that it feels like it's just been left to hang there at the moment?

5:52Exactly, because, well, the news seem to have leaked out as opposed to given out. So any structured way that either side wanted to deal with is now blown. So they're reacting in the moment. I mean, the PR around it is dreadful. either side, that's for a kick-off the idea of there's not a new thing to say about it, I'm not convinced about that, I think there'll be new things to write and say and think about this consistently and it will keep on going, because every time you turn over a rock, something else crawls out here under this story I was thinking about it, I wrote a piece today for the BBC newsletter and I was thinking, see if you do kick let's say worst case scenario they get kicked out of the leagues, right and you think that's impossible Glasgow Rangers Down to the fourth tier Of Scottish football Not that long ago Right For what happened with them What would Manchester City do then?

6:49I mean really When you think about What would happen Do you want Do you want to hang about there? You'll have certain Definitely certain problems With finances When you get down there Because you can't spend the money Would you want to hang about? Can you remember that thing Called Super League A few years ago? Mm-hmm Quite a few teams Were keen on that Weren't they? I wonder if that would raise its head again and think, well, we could go in. Because remember, nobody thought Live Golf was going to happen. And that happened. So every time you think about it, a weird thought comes into your mind.

7:20And that, whilst not necessarily a couple of those scenarios, Joe, that Pat has pointed out, have I thought about, but you start interviewing someone. I was interviewing a lawyer today about it. And all of a sudden you think, well, what about that scenario? or what could happen if this happens? You know, if Manchester City weren't in the Premier League, for example, then how did the meetings go on amongst Premier League clubs about what should maybe happen with City, say, when it comes to conversation, if City aren't in that room anymore? It's just one scenario that came to my head when we were talking about it.

7:56You as a former player, do you have questions? Me as a former player, I heard my chairman speak. That's what I've heard. And then I've heard everyone else go down every single rabbit hole, every single wormhole, every single discussion, and been given free reign to say and do whatever they want about something that hasn't happened, hasn't been proven. So my honest opinion is I've got no reason not to trust Khaldun. He delivered me good news, he delivered me bad news. He's been excellent with everything that he's done with Manchester City and how he's represented his company and Manchester City in terms of making them.

8:33He's not just a flash in the pan. I've talked about the owners before and how they do things and how they like to do things. And I've got nothing but love for the club, nothing but love for him, nothing but respect for him. So I realized it's opened up a can of worms and I realized it's opened up all those sorts of conversations and all what ifs and buts and maybes and how and who. But for me, like I say, and this is not just because it's Manchester City. I'm the same anyway about anyone. When there's speculation in the air, it's just speculation. I know that this one has a little bit more, a little bit of bone meat to it, no doubt about it.

9:07But the Premier League haven't said anything. It's been leaked, as you said, Pat. It's been leaked what's been said. It's been leaked about how many charges are going to stand. It's been leaked about what the process will be. I've heard nothing concrete. So as much as I'm going to let people do what they want to do, and I'm sure some people have fun with it, some people are serious about it, some people are upset, some people are happy. But my genuine feeling as me, as a previous player, and someone who played in this era, by the way, is I'm going to have to let it play out. Because, like I say, it's all very well and good saying, what if they go in this division?

9:40What if they go in that division? Who's entitled to this? Who's going to jump in? And I'm sure if that were the case, that will have to happen. But for me, like I say, someone who I trust and someone who's led me and led the club brilliantly and put them in a really, really good position financially and from a footballing point of view, what he said is enough for me and what he said you know i've got it in front of me the legal process and our determination and respect it means i cannot do that in the moment when he wants to put people's mind at ease so at the moment like i say it's absolutely free for all for everyone to say and do what they want and as i've said before chap has this program you know the same the sort of things and all the phone-ins and i can't stop and i don't feel anything about anyone who has an opinion that everyone's free to do what they want but like i say i i can only come on here and speak from my heart and my truth that let me let me I know I was just going to read a bit of that statement that you said and just give it the full give it the full words the Premier League process still has a long way to run this is from Kaldun Amabarak in an open letter really the Premier League process still has a long way to run and our confidence and intent improving the club's innocence is just as strong as when this began there are so many things that I would like to be able to share with you to help you understand why we feel so confident in our position but the strict confidentiality of the legal process and our determination to respect it means i cannot do that at the moment um if they appear careful with the ifs no no no yeah no yeah no because you know all the assumption is that it despite the premier still not confirming it that they've been found guilty of the 114 and 115 and then the assumption is that they're going to appeal it so they will so this will kick you would assume kick the cam further and further down the road are you the kind of individual which i kind of think i know the answer to this anyhow but are you the kind of individual that can compartmentalize that then and not even worry yourself with it until a final appeal verdict yeah quite comfortably and the only worry i have is because like i say a lot of people i care about are involved in this me personally there's no worry for me.

11:49I did what I did. I lined up 11 v 11 and had it out on the pitch. I won some games, lost some games, drew some games and I shook hands and I walked off, got changed and got ready for the next one. So there's no worry for me. There's absolutely zero. I did everything I possibly could. I had some brilliant people, again, people that I trusted, trusted with my life that I worked for when I was asked to do it for Manchester City. And that's the whole point in having these roles. And I never had relationships with outside of the management because above that is above my head. I don't understand how a football club works.

12:21I've not sat down and done one of the degrees that a lot of the boys are doing and good for them in running the clubs. I don't even know what the name of the title is because that is not how my head works. What makes me tick or did make me tick was being out on the pitch and fighting for my team. I did that many, many times in Manchester City and I'd do it again. But legally, where this whole process stands, You know, you're asking from a former player, like you say, not many have spoken probably because they haven't been asked, but I can only speak for me. And I only think about this when I think about the close people I have to me who are massively affected by it.

12:57When I think about myself, it is what it is, you know. Like I say, I left it all out on the pitch, lost, drew, won, and here I sit, happy to have a conversation with you and try and understand it as much as I possibly can, but without casting judgment until someone has drawn a line under this. Joe, you said that not many players have spoken about it publicly. Have you spoken to any of your former teammates about it behind the scenes? Do you know what? I saw that was a potential question for tonight and it hasn't even crossed my mind to have a chat with any of the lads. It really hasn't. I don't know about you, Andros, but my brain works in mysterious ways, chappers, as you well know.

13:38But anything that I can't affect is not going to give me an ounce of worry. So I'll play golf with a few of the boys or we'll cross paths and we'll probably talk about it, probably think, what have you heard, anything on the inside? But I'm certainly not going to be reaching out to Khaldun saying, is everything all right? Is there anything I can do? You know, he's the boss. He's the main man. He's got many people around him, many people legally, strategically, who will be able to give him counsel and be able to help him through this time because it's not going to be easy for him. And I loved how he spoke.

14:11I loved the letter because it was, that was from someone who cared about the club. That wasn't a legal statement. Everyone listened to me. It was, I'm sure you've had this. I'm sure you've had these conversations. Just to let you know, I'm having them too. Stay calm. Everyone stay calm. Everything's in hand. And when we're allowed to do it, when we're legally allowed to talk about it, we will. Do you know that a couple of things, what Joe's saying there, I completely agree because I've been on the other side of it, where I was running the football club. and the last thing I want is my players thinking about that forget about that, I want you to be concentrating and that's what you're paid to do so the fact that not that many players have talked about it or want to, are willing to or feel confident sometimes in talking about it, I absolutely and utterly back that, completely and utterly back that so Joe, I'm with you, 100 % mate, and I think it's the right way for players to be in this situation to the point you said before about, you know, nothing's been proved yet.

15:10You notice we've started every sentence with if. I did the phone in the other night. Yeah, yeah, you did. The 606. And my first words was, there's two big letters here we need to put in. I and F. If. And that has to be considered before every single thing that we ever say about this. I actually think the media have been quite good with this because they could have went hammer and tongs at this before that news leaked out couldn't they have? It's been mentioned before but it's as if most of the media and understandably have been in the traps and they've been held back and held back and held back but because those words come out guilty of the charges and yes we know it is a leak and it may not be true but it likely is it's got a certain weight I don't think the media can't I don't think anyone in the media can ignore it, be not considerate and worry about what could possibly The footballing side of it, I find, as in from a footballer's perspective, I find quite interesting here.

16:11Because, Andros, you have played against Manchester City during this period that is investigated. And people, and I've included myself in asking these questions sometimes, you know, if a player missed out on Champions League qualification because they finished behind Manchester City, and if Manchester City are found to have broken the rules, bearing in mind the incentives that can be in a player's contract, will they have missed out on money and so on and so forth? So do they then look at it from a legal point of view? But then I've had some players say to me, yeah, but a lot of what's happened has gone on, or if it has happened, has gone on boardroom exec business level.

16:53If you've gone toe-to-toe with 11 players on the pitch, You haven't been cheated, in inverted commas, on the pitch. It's not like City for several seasons managed to sneak on a 12th player for the whole time. And that was what this former professional was trying to explain to me. I agree, and I'm of a similar mindset. But you have to imagine if players have got clauses in their contracts, which is worth millions, then you understand why these guys are coming out and saying we should get this or they should get this. But Joe mentioned it earlier as a player, 11 v 11 on the pitch. If Man City beat us three or four years ago, then the 11 players on the pitch beat us three or four years ago.

17:33So I'm more of that mindset. But I understand when we're talking about millions here. So I understand why former players are coming out and trying to question where they stand now. So, yeah, it's understandable. Go bring James Horncastle in from Five Lives EuroLeague and also the Athletic. not because we're going to say this is going to happen to Manchester City but Serie A over the years has had various issues of taking points off teams relegating them, stripping them of titles Juventus have been in the forefront of those punishments and I suppose what the aftermath of that is and who views who as the champions if somebody is stripped of a title but James, I just want to start with because Roberto Mancini is back in charge of Italy for the second time.

18:24And a bit like Rodri, when Rodri was on Spain duty, he was asked about everything around Manchester City. He went back to the double contract reference, didn't he?

18:33James Horncastle:He did. I mean, that was a question put to him by a Turkish journalist last night in Bursa. And, you know, he said it was a leading question. It was like this double contract is part of the investigation. so that's why he used the terminology double contract but he didn't deny it and he said look this is nothing new it comes up every four or five years because as we all know this has been going on for eight years now and he said it's a problem for the club and not for him it doesn't concern him but as far as he was concerned Manchester City are not guilty so I mean that's Mancini's position on this you know I think for him this is a story that goes back a long long time you know I mean he was sacked by Man City in 2013 so with 13 years afterwards you can imagine why he was a little bit surprised I'm not entirely surprised to be asked the question but why this keeps coming up I mean, it does highlight how long this has been going on.

19:50What you would say is, as well, just on him, finally, before we look at Serie A in general and how they've dealt with punishments, he's always been consistent with what he said, hasn't he?

20:04James Horncastle:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this story about this alleged consultancy with Al Jazeera, a small club in Abu Dhabi. I mean, this came out when Rui Pinto, the whistleblower hacker who got access to all these documents and they were leaked to the Spiegel, the German magazine and some other magazines. It was kind of an Italian supplement on a weekend called L 'Espresso. And they wrote up this story about how it's alleged Mancini was paid by Man City one figure and then paid by Al Jazeera another figure. So he's been challenged on this and confronted about it since that story came out in, I think it was 2018.

20:58James Horncastle:so yeah I wouldn't say to him it's kind of water under the bridge because as he says it keeps coming up every every few years but he certainly didn't seem concerned by it last night Chappers let's talk about punishments in Italy and when they've handed been handed down and look we're not at this stage saying this is the punishment that will come Manchester City's way but obviously Juventus and Kelciopoli and that scandal, they were relegated out of the top flight and they were stripped of titles. We're going back 20 years, aren't we, to when this happened? What were the key facts then? And what in the subsequent years, how was it viewed with the titles being taken off them?

21:45James Horncastle:Not very good. No, I mean, this is one of the most poisonous. I think it is the most poisonous case in the history of Italian football. I don't think it's ever been the same since. To your first question, Chappers, I think a lot of people misunderstand this scandal. They think it's a match-fixing scandal. But no referees were ever paid. Nothing of the sort ever happened. This is essentially about a network of power at the top of the game in Italy, which came to focus in some respect around Juventus' former general manager. a guy called Luciano Moji who was banned for life after this scandal. Although I was at Juventus Milan the other week and he was there.

22:28James Horncastle:I'm still welcome at the club. And I think that tells you a lot about what Juventus think about this scandal. So in terms of the power and control, Chappers, it was to do with, yes, referees, but not in the way you might think. It was sort of calling up the referee designator as executives of other teams did leading up to games saying, who's refereeing us this week? And just like fans up and down our country, they seem to think there's some referees that referee badly against them. I mean, that was the case initially. They were like, well, we don't want that guy refereeing against us, so please don't do that.

23:04James Horncastle:Modric's son had an agency which had about 140 coaches and players on the books, which, you know, it would allow you maybe to, it was alleged to sort of control other teams or have friendly teams and then also just being a kind of tv personality so you know as we have you know sort of players and executives who go on tv shows it would be kind of calling up the producers of those shows and say and saying what's on the agenda tonight let's not talk about that or um why are you showing that decision um you shouldn't be showing that decision that's that's stupid you should be putting the spotlight on this so it was all about creating an environment which I suppose gave your team the best chance of success now the the big difference with Calciopoli and and this case between the Premier League and Manchester City is that this case between the Premier League and Manchester City has lasted eight years and Ferran Soriano has just been speaking at the EFC European Football Club Summit in Copenhagen and sources have been saying that he's been telling the other chairmans that it's taken eight years to get to this point.

24:16James Horncastle:There are many, many more years to run in this. I mean, with Calciopoli, the sporting trial of Calciopoli was done over one summer, you know, the summer in which Italy won the World Cup in 2006. So there was a sporting trial and then there was a criminal trial. And the sporting trial is the one that relegated Juventus, points deductions in the second division, points deductions against AC Milan and some other clubs, Lazio, Regina as well. The criminal trial didn't end until 2010. And finally, that second question about titles being revoked, Chappers, I mean, two were revoked, 0405 and 0506. 0405 was left unassigned.

25:00James Horncastle:05-06 was given to Inter and that is the most poisonous thing that has I think ever happened in Italian football because it led particularly after the criminal trial ended it led people to look at the sporting trial and say you rushed to judgment in that case it was unfair and Inter should never have been given that title. The kind of reason it was given to Inter was because UEFA needed a champion to be their top seed in the Champions League. And, you know, Juventus had competed in the Champions League that season, even though 0-4, 0-5 had been on the side, because, yeah, the season was still going on.

25:40James Horncastle:So, but that, Italian football's never recovered from that, Champions. OK, let me read you some of what people have said. But Alex in Chester, no one's questioning the integrity of the players. No one's doubting they deserve the glory in those games. But those players would not be playing together in that team if these rules have been broken. and it stank at the time and it stinks now. And Simon on email on a similar point, why is nobody mentioning that if proved guilty, City fans would never have had the Aguero moment or other moments as they cheated the system to afford the best players and the best managers?

26:11It's simple. There can be no sympathy if proven guilty. John, although I don't think we did this bit, to be fair, I can understand people seeing it in certain ways, but he said, you keep banging on about how Manchester City have done nothing wrong with actually zero evidence for that. I don't think we said that. I just said that we haven't actually been given confirmation. Everybody is reporting it, but nobody has actually confirmed it was what we were trying to point out with the if point. He goes on to say, but seriously, what about Liverpool and the other teams that have missed out on trophies and championships?

26:44They did nothing wrong either. If City had followed the rules, as apparently they did not do, those teams and the players for those teams would have achieved more. how about you feel sorry for them is that an if joe or do you understand the feeling sorry for them like like i say chappers i'm obviously being i know i'm being careful in my words but i've got to be because i'm representing here and i'm representing from a point of view that i'm not here to tell anyone they're wrong all those opinions that you've said they're perfectly within their reason and within their rights to feel that way and anyone who will dig deep like I'm sure James is the kind of person that would go real deep into legalities and have an opinion and some people just see things and just throw things at it.

27:28No one's right, no one's wrong at the moment because like I say nothing's finished, nothing's final and all those points that you make, you can make a million of them about a million things a day you know and I'm not going to start throwing things around because it's absolutely pointless but like I say I can only come on here and talk from my point of view, from my perspective of what's going on and with the people that I've worked with and the people that I shoulders arms with when it came to being on the pitch or off the pitch with the little bit of communication I had with the hierarchy because as I say that's not how I that's not how I live my football career like I said all these guys writing in and and and people are angry no doubt emotions run high and like I say I don't know what place you're in where you're reading it from or what sort of feelings you've got towards it in terms of it has your club been wronged or how you how you your club could have benefited if this is the case, or sorry, not benefit if it was proven.

28:20But I just can't. I just can't sit on here and talk from any other perspective other than what the main man said for me and how I feel about the football club.

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