MNC: Manchester City close in on Arsenal

24:47And I think at the moment, given the season we've had, which, as Tris said, have all been about set pieces and all that stuff, to see an actual full-on number 10 playmaker be the decisive player in a title race, that's quite nice. Rory, do you not think, though, Guardiola's philosophy is probably changing and evolving a little bit? Because I think he's always had one maverick. He's always had a Grealish or an Ibrahimovic who he's had 10 solid players in one Maverick, whereas now he's got his Doku, he's got Cherky. Semenyo, you could probably argue, is a bit of a Maverick as well. Do you not think he's thinking, right, I'm facing more low blocks, I'm facing tougher defences, I need more Maverick players to unlock these defences?

25:28That's probably the really nice way of thinking about it, that he's identified. Yeah, everyone's really well organised. You need individual talent to pick your way through. So is this a very un-Guardiola team then? because you talk about Harland not being his kind of, you know, what did you say? Not his kind of player. Not his kind of striker. He's not David Villa. Okay. So you're saying that about Harland. You're saying that about, hang on. What? You say, what?

25:55Chris Sutton:What did Rory just say then? He's not his type of striker. And this could be completely wrong, but if you look through Guardiola's teams at Barca and Bayern, he generally hasn't wanted a striker who can get to half-time with six touches in a game. That's not something that he's ever done. I just think that you are... Once again, you're just assuming this. I mean, what does every manager want from a striker? Somebody who scores a barrow load of goals. But Guadalupe has previously made it clear that's not just what he wants from a striker, Chris. Well, no, you want everything, but essentially you want the finisher.

26:32So to suggest that Pep doesn't want a Haaland type is just,

26:38Chris Sutton:I mean, that's wild even for you. I didn't say Pep didn't want a Haaland type. I said that Pep traditionally has asked for a different type of forward, which he has. And the fact that he's now incorporated a team, in fact built a team to an extent around Haaland, that is a sign either of his shift in philosophy. I think Andros would well be right that he's decided that you need individual talent to break down really well-organised offences. or the other option is that he's looked at it and thought and Donnarumma had a full air of this I want the best player so I can win a league title that I think is basically where Groddiola is philosophy-wise Because that was until he started huffing and puffing next to me that was the train of thought I was following with you was well if Haaland isn't his normal type of striker and Cherky's the maverick and Andros has said maybe Doku and Semenya are slightly different for him and Donnarumma is not the kind of when you're looking at a goalkeeper and playing with his feet is not the typical...

27:34Then this is actually quite a different Guardiola team then, isn't it? I think there's loads of Guardiola principles, obviously, and there's still Rodri and Bernardo Silva and there's still the architecture of all the Guardiola sides. But I think he has... You can make the case that all of this is assumption, but I think if you look at the players he's signed, I'm not sure that full-on fundamentalist ideology Pep would sign those players. I think he actively went out of his way to not sign players like that. Whereas at City, he does seem to have decided it. And it might be... He's always evolved, hasn't he?

28:08Chris Sutton:Yeah, yeah. And it might be that he's evolved. Every season there have been tweaks, haven't there? I mean, you know, they won the Premier League without a striker. It's the ship of Theseus, isn't it, Chris? Well, I don't know that ship. No, he's replaced all these different parts of his philosophy to the extent so is it still a Pep team? Does it's Pep's team? but every little bit of the philosophy has changed and yet it still kind of carries his signature. But I'm not sure you can look at it and say this is exactly the kind of vision of football that Pep had seven years ago. I mean, it's really different.

28:41The way they play is really different to the way they won that first Premier League title or they got 200 points. Ship of what? Theseus. I'm really worried now that I've got this one. Well, I was going to say, you've given it two and a half, three years since you last tried to quote Greek mythology because you got it wrong, didn't you? Yeah, I did, certainly. Two and a half, three years ago. And it was one of our favourite moments of the whole time we've been doing this. Keep your eyes up as well.

29:10Chris Sutton:Don't want to see your eyes down on your lap. Just going to check it. Right, OK, this will be fun. So, Arsenal's remaining games. Newcastle at home, Fulham at home, West Ham away, Burnley at home, Palace away. City have Burnley away, Everton away, Brentford at home, Bournemouth away, Palace at home, Villa at home. Match of the day last night, Andros. Danny Murphy had both teams winning all their remaining games. Wayne Rooney had City dropping points at Everton and drawing there. Arsenal winning all their games, City winning their remainder. So Danny had it going down to goal difference. Wayne had Arsenal winning it.

29:50How do you see it? I think Man City win it, but I don't think both teams go flawless between now and the end of the season, especially when you look at Arsenal. They've got two massive, massive Champions League games coming up. Their focus is going to have to be there. And then they've got West Ham away, who are fighting for their lives at the bottom of the table. Fulham, who are doing well. Crystal Palace on the last day of the season, away from home at Selhurst Park. That's not an easy place to go to. Burnley, potentially, who might have nothing to play for on the 17th of May. So, yeah, I think Arsenal drop points as well.

30:23Now with Burnley, isn't it?

30:25Chris Sutton:What? Burnley don't have anything to play for now. Well, they're not mathematically down. Let's not get into that. So you think they can stay up? Well, I'm not saying that, but at the moment, they still have a lot to play for because they're not mathematically down and I'm there on Wednesday. So you could avoid disparaging them too much. That would really help me. So, Andros, you're going City, yes? I'm going City, yeah. Of course. Rory? I think Arsenal have got the easier running, so I'm going to go Arsenal. Chris, do you want help from the Opta supercomputer before you do this? Yeah, if you want, yeah.

31:01Arsenal, before the Manchester City game, their chance of winning the title, according to the supercomputer, was 85%. Now it's 73%. City's chances before were 14%, and now they're 27%.

31:15Chris Sutton:That's incredible. Do you want me to give you the supercomputer's reasoning? Yeah, speak for the supercomputer. Okay, I am not responsible for the supercomputer, but I'll opt to say that it isn't higher for City, aside from them having their game in hand still to play. But the reason it isn't higher is that their opponents for the running are more difficult. Everton, Bournemouth, Villa, all in the hunt for Europe. Arsenal's last five are all in the bottom half of the table. Well, that's the supercomputer's opinion. But no, I'm with Rory on this. I think Arsenal have, all their games are winnable.

31:57Chris Sutton:People look at West Ham, who was scrapping, and have improved. But I think Arsenal have got pretty generous fixtures. I look at City and you look at Everton away. You look at Bournemouth away. They're difficult fixtures.

32:425 Live Sports Listen on BBC Sounds.

32:52This is the Monday Night Club with Mark Chapman.

32:55Chris Sutton:On the Football Daily Podcast.

33:00Chris Sutton, Andros Townsend, Rory Smith on the Monday Night Club. On to Chelsea next, who had a terrible weekend in their bid to get Champions League football next season. They were beaten at home 1-0 by Manchester United. Sixth home defeat in the Premier League this season for them. They've also lost their last four Premier League games without scoring. And that is their joint longest run since November 1912. Even when Chris was up front for them, they managed to score more often than they are doing at the moment. 1912 was when the Titanic went down as well, Rory. It was. Villa and Liverpool both won as well.

33:43So they're in sixth at Chelsea. seven points adrift of Liverpool, ten behind Manchester United and Villa. Liam Rossini was asked in his press conference today if he felt backed by the Chelsea hierarchy. 100%. They've been supportive of me and our daily conversations, sporting directors involved. They've been magnificent in their support of me and the team. And yeah, we're aligned and we know we need to win games of football in the now. That doesn't go against what we're trying to do, which is give success, consistent success to this club long term. I think the biggest challenge for any manager coming mid-season is you want to get to know your players as quickly as possible in your group.

34:22You want to know not just tactical things, technical things, what they're used to, their routines. And you want to make sure that you don't adapt things too quickly from what they're used to. That's been a big challenge in terms of the amount of games that we've played, the training sessions that we've had. and also making sure that they're understanding of what we want day in, day out. And that takes time. So that's the biggest challenge. In terms of the results, they haven't been good recently and that's something that we really, really need to overcome. It's a massive week. It's what you're in football for, it's key games.

34:56We've got a huge game tomorrow night and then we go into an FA Cup semi-final against the Leeds team in form. That's why you're in football. That's what we want. But now is the time for us to deliver and that's what we have to work towards. They appear to have got themselves in a right pickle here, Rory, don't you think? In terms of Resenia, in terms of the squad, in terms of the amount of debt they're in, the losses they post every year, which way do you want to go with it? None of it's great. You go with whichever way you want to. I feel really sorry for Resenia, who is clearly a very talented coach, who was building a kind of commendable career, first at Hull, where he did a relatively good job, and then at Strasbourg where he works in a kind of environment where they could be in a European final, Strasbourg, so I don't want to kind of diminish them too much.

35:44But you're working with younger players, it's a development coaching role. And then he's plucked from that because Chelsea sort of fall out with their manager who all their players really liked and given this job in the middle of a season with a squad that doesn't have any of the necessary characteristics to achieve the things it wants to achieve. And he does really well at the start. We shouldn't forget that Liam Rossini came in and no one gave him a prayer. And within the first six weeks, he dropped the wins. He picked up points. He steadied them a little bit. And then things have got tougher.

36:17We've reached the business end of the season. And now, I mean, if they miss out on the Champions League, given the financial situation, you have to assume that is a massive kind of economic problem for them. I think also in terms of the optics is probably the right word, I find it really hard to think that he wouldn't be under intense pressure it just I mean Chelsea's ownership see themselves as these great disruptors it's a really bad advert for that kind of Silicon Valley concept of disruption I mean maybe these people don't know what they're doing maybe when they enter into industries they haven't been in before and decide that everyone's been doing everything wrong they're talking ownership there are you?

36:54yeah yeah I mean like Winstead and Lawrence Stewart they've all been around football they know what they're doing they have signed some good players there is no question about that I think the ownership policy has I mean you can't look at it now and say that it's been a success that it just has not worked it's four years and that's I mean if you compare where they are now to where they were then I'm not sure you've seen you could maybe make an argument for some slight progress but not really and it's been extremely expensive Rory how much financial trouble could they be and if they do miss out on the Champions League places?

37:30well i mean if you look at the kind of figures that they're losing every year i they might get away with it to an extent because obviously there's no just financial fair play financial fair play psr changes next year so they might be able to to kind of manage it within the new rules which don't have the they're not anchored as they were meant to be which means as far as i can tell you can do what you like effectively um it's kind of regulation without regulation but there is a there is a real term thing like i i think in football too too often we think about accountancy reality and how do these figures look compared to these rules but you are also like shedding all of that money that's actual money that's going out you've you've signed players on eight-year contracts you have to pay him you've given liam ross senior i think an eight-year contract as well if you sack him you will have to give him that money you owe it to him that's true of all the managers they've been through they are kind of just hosing out money constantly and i i they've obviously got hugely deep pockets but there's a point where you can't really sustain that so i would imagine that everything is kind of balanced quite delicately and you need that money from the champions league to make sure everything kind of keeps ticking over i would guess that if they don't make it there will have to be substantial changes to their transfer plans and that's not great given they clearly need to reinforce the squad the uh the co-owner beddad eqbali gave a gave an interview last week which i'm not sure particularly helps the overall situation it included there is a plan we reflect on the plan, we try to improve the plan and tweak the plan if it's not working.

38:57And then also said, I think we're behind Liam. Of course, it's a results business, but we think he can be successful long-term. Neither of those are particularly helpful, I would suggest.

39:12Chris Sutton:No, and there was a protest at the weekend, wasn't there, from Chelsea fans. I think Chelsea fans are sick and tired of the club and the way that they are running it and thinking that they are, that Chelsea are essentially a youth development team. And, you know, these are Chelsea fans who for 20 odd years under Abramovich were used to competing at the top and winning things. Rory, you said a moment ago that they have made progress. I'm not so sure they've made progress. under Liam Rossini. They've lost six out of the last seven. And the fact that, you know, the Oneg Valley, you know, talked about wasn't, you know, basically wasn't sure whether they're going to stick with Liam Rossini.

40:00Chris Sutton:I think there's a massive end to the season. I think Cole Palmer, did he not say that they need Champions League football? I like Liam Rossini a lot. He said everything changes if Chelsea don't get Champions League football. Yep. And you can imagine and the prima donnas they're wanting out if they don't get Champions League football and having their headstand. The one thing which I do think about Liam Rossini is the Enzo Fernandes situation. I think that, we spoke about this before, I think he has been so soft and I know that he's in a position where he took over and I don't know whether that was, or it seemed to be partly his decision, but partly it came from above.

40:44Chris Sutton:the best way I would put that if that was Pep Guardiola in charge or if that was David Moyes in charge

40:54Chris Sutton:and from above they talked about leaving their star player or one of their star players out for a couple of games for the good of the group they just wouldn't put up with that and I don't think Liam Rossini should have put up with that because there is no way that that was ever going to be a good thing and if they were going to do it just leave him out for the Port Vale game. Get him back in for the Manchester City game. Every single player, every football club I've played at, you know, would want to play for Real Madrid. What was the problem which Enzo Fernandes said? I don't get that, but I think he's made a monumental error with that and I think it makes him look weak.

41:36Chris Sutton:I think he should have stood up for himself there. And essentially, we're all talking about the Champions League. if they don't get it, that's going to be catastrophic for him. So we should have kept him in the team. Chris, didn't Maresca lose his job after going head-to-head with the hierarchy on some sort of decision? So I don't think he has that sort of authority to really... No, and that's the whole point. You can't be... I know he's a young coach, but you can't be pushed around and manoeuvred all the time. I don't know what you... We don't know. You don't know that he's been pushed around and manoeuvred.

42:08It was human, Chris.

42:09Chris Sutton:It was, you know... I'm assuming, yeah. But I think it's on record as saying it was a joint decision. I think he said it was a joint decision. So, you know, come on, be stronger in that situation. I don't know anybody who thinks that that was a good thing for the better of the group. I mean, really? Who cares? It was an awful game on Saturday night, Andros, the Chelsea-Manchester United one. And United sneaked over, first win in over five years at Stamford Bridge. But as well as the Champions League side of things, I suppose the painful thing from a Chelsea point of view is that United needed their old heads to carry them through, really.

42:53They needed Bruno Fernandes. They needed Casemiro. You know, you could argue that Mbwemo and Cunha, certainly relative to Chelsea's squad, are old heads because of their Premier League experience. It's Masraoui helping Aidan Heaven as his fellow centre-half. That's what struck me watching it the other night. Not the quality of the football, but it was United experience that got them over the line. 100%. And I think Chelsea would probably... I actually probably enjoyed Chelsea's performance the other night. They probably missed that killer instinct up front to put away the chances. But the way they controlled possession, the way they were playing into the number 10s, I really, really enjoyed their performance.

43:36But like you said, Man United, every time I've watched them, definitely recently, they've been second best, but they've found a way to win football matches. And they sit third in the table now, having not really played amazing. So, yeah, I think Man United are doing what they need to do at the moment to get back into the Champions League, to get into the summer and then maybe improve the squad. But, yeah, I was really impressed with Chelsea, even though they did fall to their sixth defeat in seven games.

44:01Chris Sutton:Chelsea have spent£210 million on Drow Pedro, Gittins, Garnaccio, De Lapp and Estevio. I mean, that Pedro aside, the others have scored four Premier League goals between them. I think that's the problem, yeah. And when you talk about, everybody talks about this model. At the start, I think everybody can understand what they were trying to do. but I suppose the question is how close are they to actually winning a title and they are years away, aren't they? There's not going to be a switch flick where you think, well Chelsea are just going to next season they're going to really crack on and that's the problem and that's where the frustration is with the Chelsea support, this plan isn't working Kukurea came out and criticised the club didn't he?

44:51Chris Sutton:And told them they need more experience in, you've just mentioned the Manchester United experience, why can't Chelsea get that? Because the plan was to disrupt the transfer market and disrupt the way that football does things. But the idea that you need a mix of youth and experience in football, that's not something that needs disrupting. That's just true. It's just a thing that has always been true and will always be true that you can't have a team full of 23-year-olds because you sometimes have to have people like Bruno Fernandes, who is, although I never think of him this way, who is 31, nearly 32, Bruno.

45:23You need someone who's been around the block a bit.

45:25Chris Sutton:He's 32 on his next birthday 32 on his next birthday the um the you know the united even city on yesterday afternoon you know the two players who in those last 20 minutes and i got city through were rodri and bernardo silva you need those players who can kind of take the game shape it to their will kind of control the situation chelsea decided that the entire sort of 150 year span of football history was stupid and that the two people who as far as we know or a handful of people as far as we know, didn't really have any interest in football, knew better. And then you get Cole Palmer coming out, like Kukereya.

45:59Cole Palmer said to the Guardian on Saturday that there will be, he thinks that, you know, they're talking about signings and that he alluded to the idea they might need experience as well. So you sort of think, well, has this just been a bit of a waste of time the last four years? Just trying to change something that didn't need changing? Looks like it. Let's move on. Go talk Bournemouth next. Raf Honesteyn from EuroLeagues joins us. Marco Rose will take over from Andoni Iraola. a good appointment in your view? A very talented coach, there's no doubt about that. He's already coached at the highest level, especially with Borussia Dortmund one season, one stuff with Leipzig.

46:35Perhaps hasn't quite followed up on his early promise by winning the Youth Champions League as a really young coach with Salzburg. People thought he's going to be sort of the next Jurgen Klopp or the next Thomas Tuchel. Hasn't quite done that because his stints at Dortmund and Leipzig weren't perhaps quite as successful as people have expected. He left after only one year at Dortmund when the club and him felt that it wasn't quite the right fit. And Leipzig, after the promising start and winning the German Cup, sort of petered out a little bit. And that's why I think we'll find him at Bournemouth next season rather than in conversation or in contention for one of the super clubs in Europe.

47:16But there's no doubt that he's a very charismatic guy. He's got experience. He's done interesting things tactically, very much in the Jurgen Klopp mould of managers. So I think definitely worth a try with him. Will he build on what Iraola has done, i.e. not too much difference from what you've seen from Bournemouth and Iraola, knowing Marco Rose? I think Marco Rose is maybe not quite as extreme. I think Irola and Bournemouth were the highest, most intense pressing side in the Premier League and I'm not sure Roze is quite that much of an ideologue when it comes to pressing of course it's important for him, it's his bedrock to give you a bit of context, he was a very ordinary player a journeyman player that was lifted to Bundesliga level by virtue of finding himself playing for Mainz under Klopp and suddenly finding a system that elevated players that were really probably not good enough to play at this level.

48:25He managed to play at this level and be successful because the system and the work rate and the effort and the organization superseded everything and brought out something that individually wasn't there in the sum of the parts. So he's got that, but I don't see him perhaps being quite as committed to that amount of pressing and maybe try to be slightly more measured. Now, whether Bournemouth want that or, you know, maybe he has to go back to sort of the blueprint of the original model, as it were, that's going to be an interesting debate, I think, as things progress. But you can see why on paper, Bournemouth, having looked at a lot of managers, they think, okay he is he's pretty much a german version or some version of what we had already ralph why do you think his career kind of stalled after all that early promise was it was it that a kind of clash of characters at dortmund similar to tuchel was it internal politics was that was he kind of found out a little bit what was the what caused it because there was a point like you say where he seemed like the next big thing yeah it's it's really hard to put your finger on it i mean the His first season of Dortmund was perfectly fine.

49:38But when they sat together and did a debriefing, they both looked at each other and thought, maybe this isn't really the right fit. And I think it was more, as you're alluding to, more about the human dimension, him and the people above him, that they didn't quite believe in themselves anymore or in each other, I should say. Probably in themselves still, but not in each other. As far as Leipzig is concerned, he started really well. It looked like the ideal fit because this is a guy born in Leipzig, played for Leipzig, IB, a different Leipzig club, coached for a different Leipzig club, and then almost as a homecoming took over RB Leipzig.

50:15And what looked like maybe an error then petered out after two and a half years. And I'm not sure why that really was beyond saying that Leipzig haven't had any successful long-term managers now in a long time. I think maybe there's something intrinsic in the model. and the way that it's run with the constant turnover in players and the people above there, perhaps not being always super close to the action football-wise. I wouldn't hold it against him, but I think it is a little bit telling that now Bournemouth is, I think for him, maybe a way back into the elite rather than an elite club coming after him.

51:00What other options did he have? because when Irei Ola announced his departure at this stage of the season, I was a bit surprised. But it says to me that maybe other clubs were circling for Marco Rose and they needed to get him off the market as soon as possible. Was that the case? He had a few inquiries, especially from the Bundesliga Frankfurt before they appointed Alberto Riera, who I don't think is going to last much longer, incidentally. They looked at him, but he was still, I think, I'm right in saying, on the books of Leipzig or still there was some kind of financial link. And I think that made it difficult for some of the Bundesliga clubs to get him out and to compensate him in a way that befitted his requirements and the existing contract with Leipzig.

51:44So I think for Premier League side, it was probably easier to do that kind of deal. And also, I think there is a... I haven't spoken to him personally about this, but I think there was a sense that having been at some of the biggest clubs in the Bundesliga already, that the next step for him was going to go abroad and test himself. When he was at Leipzig, he spoke a few times about wanting to coach in the Premier League and I think for him that was just the most exciting option. Thank you, Raf. Good to talk to you. Thank you. Fascinating stuff from Raf.

52:20Leicester could be relegated to League One just 10 years on from winning the Premier League title. They're eight points from safety. They've got three games left to play. Leicester fan Chris sent us this to mnc at bbc.co.uk Our club is spiralling 10 years ago we won the league 5 years ago we lifted the FA Cup now we're staring down the barrel of relegation to League 1 We've had 5 managers since sacking Brendan Rodgers in 2023 There has been no visible board accountability just repeated mistakes and short term thinking Financially the situation is dire The last two published accounts our wages to revenue ratio exceeded 100 % players were allowed to leave on free transfers when it was clear they would not sign new deals it's not bad luck it's mismanagement senior players are out of contract this summer and yet they remain on significant wages so we can't sell them the fan base is fractured some remain loyal to the ownership others demand change every Leicester fan is grateful to the ownership for what they helped us achieve the Premier League title and FA Cup will live forever but gratitude cannot excuse ongoing mismanagement we are at a crossroads and that is due to a lack of leadership Chris, a Leicester fan.

53:30I suppose, Chris, it is possible to be both, isn't it? Grateful for the ownership for what they achieved, but then furious at them for the state that they're in.

53:39Chris Sutton:Yeah, I think it can be both. I mean, I had a look at the Leicester team, which lost at Portsmouth at the weekend, and I mean, it's an incredible team. But for them to be in that position, Begovic, Ricardo Pereira Vestergaard, Lascelles Luke Thomas, Fatua, Winks Mavadidi, Dekordova-Reed Chowdhury, Daka and then on the bench Jordan Ayew Oliver Skip I get the anger at the ownership and the way that the club is run but I'm sorry that group of players I'm afraid should never be in that position in the championship and I think that they have to have a long, hard look at themselves. I mean, do they care?

54:30Chris Sutton:They should not be languishing down there. One of the things, Andros, when we covered Leicester before, one of the things that was levelled was that the new training ground that they had there was sensational. And for Leicester, who always had the underdog mentality and that won them the league, that the training ground that was like a luxury spa or whatever, that mollycoddled them and they lost that edge. Where do you stand on that kind of reasoning that a lot of fans would use as an excuse? I think it is an excuse. I don't think you can label having one of the best training grounds in the world as a negative.

55:18I remember when Spurs when we moved into our new training ground 10-15 years ago amazing facilities you're able to train at the highest level sorry? look where they are now yeah fair point fair point no I just think you're able to do a lot more with obviously an elite training ground you're able to train at the highest level recover at the highest level in the gym you've got the best equipment maybe they've got Spurs had hotels where you can sleep and recover properly as well. Yeah, you can label many things about Leicester which has gone wrong, but having an elite training ground, unfortunately, you can't put that as a negative.

55:57But I think the squad that you read out, Chris, for that game in Portsmouth, that is the problem, isn't it? Because there are some, there's plenty of players there who've played in the Premier League, there's plenty of players there who certainly you'd expect to at least be kind of upper end of the championship, but they are all on massive money. There's an element of kind of buying players who are on the way down rather than the way up. it all feels a little bit kind of of a mishmash like a hodgepodge of players signed by lots of different managers or signed simply to suit Five managers since 2023 that's what Chris said on that email And each of those managers you know, Leicester have had directors of football and stuff who will oversee the recruitment but each of those managers will require slightly different things they'll want slightly different types of players and what you get is a club that is shelling out a load of money on a squad that is underperforming and is unable to escape that underperforming squad that doesn't fit together.

56:46And that allegation, I think, is much more, kind of lands at the feet of the owners much more than they built them two nights a training ground. I think that would be, when they built the training ground, it was just they'd won the Premier League probably six years before and they'd won the FA Cup two years before. It was a legitimate thing to do. Is it, Rory, shocking that the Premier League champions of a decade ago could be relegated to League One? Or, and I don't mean this in a horrible way or whatever, is there an asterisk because it's Leicester, i.e. it was such a remarkable story that they won the Premier League?

57:25Yeah, you can't romanticise them being 5 ,000 to one shots to win the lead and then be like, well, it's absolutely shocking that they've been relegated. I mean, lead one is pushing it a bit, but they were a fairy tale. And ultimately, this is, you know, Leicester's probably historic role in English football is bouncing between the first and the second tier. That's what they are. Leicester are similar to West Brom. They're kind of a yo-yo club. That's what they've always been historically. So this is a low point for them, but it's not unprecedented that Leicester should be in the third tier. That has happened before.

57:57I think along with, you know, Wigan won the FA Cup. I think, was that the same season they got relegated? You know, Wigan had this success and then went down and fell a long way. Bolton didn't win anything, but they got into Europe and fell a long way. clubs can only survive at that kind of in that rarefied oxygen for so long and then gravity kind of reasserts itself and it's about how well prepared the clubs are for that bump when it comes and Leicester had I think chased the dream too much they got a bit carried away maybe thought it was permanent and they the problem is you're then living with like the financial consequences of it which hamstring you when you try and kind of go again effectively.

58:40Rory, I disagree with you a little bit because you're right in the fact that the Premier League was a bit of a one-off but since then Brendan Rodgers did build them back up to compete and they were in I think two seasons in a row they were fighting for Champions League places and just missed out on the last few weeks so this is a Leicester side that this is a Leicester side that is more than just that Premier League title so it still is shocking that this side who were competing with the best a few years ago is now playing League One football Yeah, to be fair that is right if you think about Rodgers winning the Cup I mean this decade that is the fact I mean the Premier League title was 10 years ago and that is to be honest in football terms that's like a generation of players that is a relatively long time in football the FA Cup feels much more recent and the decline has been much quicker I mean Enzo Moreska got them promoted three years ago that and they that that should have been for Leicester a chance to kind of reset and re-establish themselves as you know a team similar to say Palace or Fulham or someone like that there's no reason Leicester couldn't be like that because they also have the allure of being the team everyone's heard of Leicester everybody has heard of Leicester because they won the league and they won the cup and it's I think the issue is that they've kind of repeated the mistakes they didn't learn from what they from what went wrong before the first relegation it compounded it, they go back down and then, I mean, but you know, Chris says they shouldn't have that many points, but they do have more points than that, they just had six of them taken off for financial...

1:00:07Is it too easy to blame the owners though, with

1:00:10Chris Sutton:this? Because I think in the past we've talked about sides who have come up to the Premier League and gambled. Have Leicester then, by keeping the players which they have on big wages, just gambled badly and got it wrong? and that's where I do think the training ground thing has something in it. Is there an element of these players just have become so comfortable, a bit of fat cat syndrome, and don't really have the stomach to scrap it out? Well, you would think that a lot of fans may think that. I think it's legitimate. I mean, you know, I'm not going to read the group of players out again, but most of them had played Premier League football.

1:00:57Chris Sutton:I mean, Pat Sundacker, I think, he did come in from Salzburg for a huge fee and you even look at the bench, Oliver Skip, a talented player. How are they in that position? I do think it is, we have given clubs praise on the Monday night club for gambling and Leicester have just, they have gambled and the owner's desperate for them to get back in the Premier League. I don't know where they are budget-wise in the Championship. And yet, you know, the owner's getting panned for that. Well, that's it. I don't know how to say goodbye, Andros, really. Shall I say good luck? I hope it picks up a bit. It's sunny outside.

1:01:43Yeah, exactly. Go and enjoy the weather. See you soon. Thank you. See you, mate. Rory, Chris, thank you as well. Up next on the Football Daily Pod, a 72-plus EFL Awards special.

1:02:21in a way that they can show their skills. So that's what we're trying to do. Win the World Cup. It's a dream. Listen.

1:02:27Chris Sutton:With the BBC Sounds app.