In short
The episode focuses on two main things: VAR controversy in the Manchester derby and Rangers’ dominant Old Firm win over Celtic. On VAR, the guests argue the key issue wasn’t whether the goal should stand, but that the VAR process missed a clear offside offence by Enzo Fernandez (they claim he was offside and interfering by jumping to head the ball). They say the assistant VAR should have flagged it and that referee Michael Oliver should have been sent to the monitor. They also criticize VAR’s “systemic” complexity: offside and handball rules have changed multiple times, and decisions are often subjective (they cite past examples like Arsenal vs Brentford and discuss handball law confusion). For football, Rangers reach the Scottish League Cup semis after a big win over Celtic; Scott Arfield says it’s a momentum shift under Derek McInnes, with Rangers physically superior and new striker Kelsey scoring. Shea Given, Chris Sutton, and Rory Smith discuss Manchester United’s flat performance despite playing against 10 men, blaming tactics and late substitutions, and praising Pep Guardiola’s successor, Enzo Maresca, for City’s calm, effective start.
Guests
Dale Johnson (correspondent), Shea Given, Chris Sutton, Rory Smith, and Scott Arfield.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOWeekend Game Reflections
0:00 to 1:00
Discussing recent games and the experiences of attending matches.
“This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.”
Weekend Game Reflections
1:03 to 2:24
Discussing recent games and the experiences of attending matches.
Introduction to VAR Controversy
2:24 to 2:56
Setting up the discussion on VAR issues from the recent Manchester derby.
Analysis of VAR's Mistake
2:56 to 4:24
Deep dive into the human error made by VAR during the game.
“Well, I mean, from what we can tell so far, and we'll probably find out more tomorrow when match official mics up on TV, so I'm sure this will get played out.”
Understanding VAR Communication
4:24 to 6:42
Examining the communication process among VAR officials during the match.
“you've got Matt Donoghue who was a VAR, used to be a linesman, and then he retrained, started again to become his referee.”
The Complexity of Offside Laws
6:42 to 9:30
Discussion on the evolving nature of offside rules and their implications.
“And they probably don't stick to one page of a graphic now.”
Confusion Over Handball Rules
9:30 to 10:38
Analyzing the ongoing confusion surrounding handball rules in football.
“for where things might happen, like what happened on Sunday.”
VAR's Subjectivity in Decision Making
10:38 to 11:40
Exploring the subjective nature of VAR decisions and their inconsistencies.
“Which I'm sure is the fulfilment of all of your career ambitions.”
Red Card Controversies in Recent Matches
11:40 to 12:18
Discussion on the red card incidents involving Foden and Fernandes.
“I mean, the stuff you have said, Mark, about the tweaks over the years, I mean, it is really confusing.”
VAR Decisions in the Manchester Derby
14:00 to 15:00
A discussion on the contentious VAR decisions regarding red cards for Foden and Fernandes during the Manchester derby.
“So I don't know why there was no communication between the two of them then.”
Show all 22 chapters
Subjectivity in VAR and Refereeing
15:00 to 16:00
Exploring the subjectivity in VAR decisions and how interpretations of what constitutes a foul differ among referees.
“I mean, a couple of points finally, and then we'll get on to the football.”
Cultural Issues Surrounding Refereeing
16:00 to 17:40
Discussion on how the culture around officiating has developed and the impact of scrutiny on referees.
“Now we're even more obsessed with referees than we ever were.”
Manchester United's Performance Review
17:40 to 20:00
Analyzing Manchester United's lackluster performance against Manchester City, especially when they had a numerical advantage.
“I was thinking when I watched Saturday's games, at some point will people start to mention size of shin pads if somebody goes over the ball in a...”
Tactical Decisions and Player Selection
20:00 to 21:40
Debating Michael Carrick's tactical decisions and player selections during the derby match.
“Yeah, I think that that's absolutely spot on.”
Underwhelming Summer Transfer Window for United
21:40 to 24:40
Discussion on Manchester United's transfer strategies and the perceived underwhelming summer transfer window.
“didn't do them any favours going down to Man City because then they had to sit back and defend low in a defensive shape.”
Managerial Decisions and Game Strategy
24:40 to 28:00
Analyzing managerial decisions made during the match and their impact on game strategy and performance.
“Weren't we told that Manchester United were going to fix the attack last summer and then this summer was the summer they fixed the midfield?”
Mareska's Impressive Start with City
28:00 to 32:50
Discussion about Mareska's success since taking over Manchester City and the challenges faced.
“Yeah, and he went very defensive very quickly.”
Rangers' Dominance in the Old Firm Match
33:49 to 42:00
Analysis of Rangers' recent performance against Celtic and implications for their season.
“She hit the ball big, she hit two hands off both sides.”
Rangers' Current Position and Old Firm Atmosphere
42:00 to 45:31
An analysis of Rangers' recent performance and the significance of the Old Firm match atmosphere.
“just finish ahead of Rangers, finish ahead of Hearts and they've got the Europa this week and when you look at Rangers now don't have Europe, they're in a pretty good position.”
Celtic's Struggles and Tactical Challenges
45:31 to 49:54
Discussion on Celtic's recent struggles in big matches and the tactical decisions facing their management.
“I was listening to a few interviews, Callum McGregor's interview after it was very, very damning.”
Rangers' Momentum and Future Prospects
49:54 to 51:55
Exploration of Rangers' recent successes and the implications for their future performance in competitions.
“It was the most important thing, obviously, getting the victory in a Derby day.”
Chris Sutton's Old Firm Memories
51:55 to 53:24
Chris Sutton shares a memorable experience from his playing days in the Old Firm matches.
“Scott, thank you very much for coming on We talk about the difficulties of playing central midfield in an old firm game.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
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1:29not seen a got the last goal i saw live in a stadium was nobel mendy in the 32nd minute of the first game of the season i think i should stop going to football mat because i'm spoiling it and you've been to a game every weekend have you no to be fair to be fair i skipped one weekend so that's two games in a two nil nil draws in a row right okay uh what were you going to this weekend out of interest i'm waiting to see who i want to curse all right uh speaking of which um we have had a very mixed record when it comes to managers joining us on the show and then how they go afterwards so I'll apologise to Swansea fans now your manager will join us before 8 o 'clock, Vito Matos will be with us around 10 to 9 before then there's a lot to get into, the bottom three, Fulham Villa and Coventry we'll look at the old firm from yesterday and Rangers thumping win in the League Cup, we'll talk Leeds who are in action this evening against Newcastle and we'll talk Manchester the derby as well let's get all the var guff out of the way first of all uh shall we um monday night clubs why can't we just play football correspondent dale johnson uh is with us let's well let's try and do this as tightly as possible so that we can then get on to the football but the important thing here in all of this and what pro ref formerly pgmol have have said it's not that whether the goal should have stood or not, it's that they've got their process wrong.
2:55Yes? Basically, yes. Well, I mean, from what we can tell so far, and we'll probably find out more tomorrow when match official mics up on TV, so I'm sure this will get played out. But what it seems is that when they've looked at Enzo Fernandez, they just haven't taken into account that he was offside and they weren't factoring in a potential subjective offside offence by him jumping to head the ball, which is obviously one of the clearest offside offences you're likely to see. So it's just an absolutely massive human error that obviously should never have happened. And it's quite remarkable to understand how it has happened.
3:30Because if they'd decided or spotted it or decided to look at the Fernandes thing more, they would have sent Michael Oliver to the screen. And it would then be on him to decide whether he was interfering with play. Exactly, yeah. So they've passed Erling Haaland as being onside, but they haven't actually got to the point where they've realised that Enzo Fernandes has committed an offside offence. And like I said, it's remarkable that there's been no intervention. I apologise if you can't answer this question because I haven't asked you whether you know it in advance. But you know when you see, when we saw the World Cup and there were about 17 people stood in a box all gurning at the camera for VAR as part of the introduction to the officiating team.
4:12How many are in the VAR box at Stockley Park? So you've got the VAR and the AVAR. the assistant VAR. Now, what's most remarkable about this situation is you've got Matt Donoghue who was a VAR, used to be a linesman, and then he retrained, started again to become his referee. And then obviously you've got the assistant VAR, who is also a Premier League linesman. So you've got two people who work as assistant referees who should be able to identify when a player is committing a subjective offside effect. When we get the audio, do we hear the assistant VAR? Yes, you hear both of them. So we hear both of them and the referee and the assistants who are there as well.
4:51You'll also hear the replay operator for the technical replay operator saying, do you want this replay? Do you want that replay? But yeah, I'm sure we'll hear that tomorrow and we'll see exactly where it seems that they've gone wrong. But from what it seems so far, it just seems to be an absolutely catastrophic human error. Because do you not think, Shane, in all of that, perhaps the most surprising thing is that nobody went, should we look at him? It's that obvious. It feels like they just literally didn't see him in the middle of the goal, three yards offside or whatever it was my thing is Michael Oliver's obviously the referee in charge and he's the guy who has to make the decision but obviously he trusts the VAR but you know Michael's standing around for it seems an eternity waiting for this VAR thing to come in surely he can take a little jog over himself to the screen and just go lads what about him you know what I mean every goal if it's clear and it's black and white you go okay but there might be a bit of a Halland might be just just come and have a look Michael because what Michael does he stands there looks he's watching and fends off their captain you know whatever Fernandes or whoever else he's fending off players as they just stand there waiting, like twiddling his sums.
5:51Why can he join in the conversation at the monitor? I think Haaland, who is quite amusing to watch, Rory, in the whole of that process, I actually think Haaland mouths at one point, it's not me, it might be Enzo. Oh, goodness. I think he does. Well, quite possibly. He said in the interview after the game yesterday that he knew pretty quickly that he wasn't offside. And I think he said he took it personally that Michael Oliver thought he might have been offside as Erling Haaland, and I'd never really noticed this, I'm sure it's true, Erling Haaland's sort of self-identifies as someone who's never offside.
6:24So he seemed to imply that he was pretty sure he was okay. But yeah, I mean, the fact that nobody thought, should we look at the fellow in the light blue shirt in the middle of the box? And even... Sorry, one foot person or he can get it wrong. And then, but Dale, you're saying there's an assistant. Yeah, we've had this before. There's an assistant human being in there as well. Do you know what I mean? We had this a few years ago as well in a game between Arsenal and Brentford where, and the problem was is the VAR at the time was Lee Mason and he was there was so much going on with different things needed to be checked as part of it that he didn't actually check the player that was offside who was Christian Norgard who created a goal for Ivan Toney so that was a goal that stood which should have been ruled out and that was a player who actually played the ball but the VAR got so consumed with other factors that he didn't look at what needed to be looked at so it's just while we're dealing with human beings looking at these things unfortunately you can't rule them out I'd quibble slightly with the idea that this is to do with human error I think there is a human mistake in it but I think it's a systemic error and it's watching Sky in particular and I know that Match Today did the same put up the graphic for the actual rules three times to try and explain once during the game and then twice afterwards and that I would agree with you Rory was going to be my point there which is every time we do a game on Sky or they do it on the highlights, then you end up with either an offside law or a handball law.
7:52More often than not, they are the two. And they probably don't stick to one page of a graphic now. I mean, you probably have to go to a second page and sometimes maybe even a third page. And so the systemic part is they have made everything so complicated, as we have discussed many times, that now the number of hoops they probably have to jump through within that box before they make a decision is getting ridiculous. And the final thing that I'll just throw to you, Dale, before you come in is we've had eight seasons of VAR. And in that time, the handball law, rule, whatever, has changed twice.
8:38Laws relating to offside have changed four times in eight years. I mean, it's nonsense. So what I'd say to start with is that there may be tweaks to offside. But in general terms, the premise of offside hasn't changed that much. the interfering with an opponent, which happened at the weekend, that was in the laws in 1910. You can go and look at the iFive website. It's always been there. The problem is that a lot of these laws that get put up on the screen on Sky, people didn't need to know these laws. People went to watch a game of football and a goal was scored, a goal was ruled out. Everybody went home, went to the pub, talks about it.
9:15They didn't get this lesson in the laws of the game where it had to be spelled out to them, paragraph by paragraph, to try to make them understand a simple game which they just want to sit and watch. And that's the issue. These laws have always been really complicated because you've got to cover eventualities for where things might happen, like what happened on Sunday. But people just don't want to know that. People don't want to get consumed by all these details. They just want to watch a game of football. Yeah, but now... The best example is... Oh, sorry, go on, Rory. The best example, and they'll know this, do you know the hair-pulling thing this season?
9:48Yes, it has to be an actual pull. Hair pulling last season was a straight red. And you can think that was harsh and a little bit kind of excessive. And you can think that football does occasionally have a weird desire to police things that don't actually do any physical harm at the same time as allowing stuff that does do actual physical harm to go a little bit less, you know, to be punished a bit more lightly. But hair pulling, to me anyway, and this is personal, feels unsportsmanlike at the very best. and so they had this rule last season that it was a straight red and then they went around the clubs at the end of last season, start of this season and said, what do you think of all these rules?
10:24Can we have some feedback? And it turned out a lot of the players thought it was a bit harsh getting sent off for pulling someone's hair. So now they've come up with a rule whereby if there is a yanking motion, so at some point, you're going to have to sit on a sky sofa somewhere and say, was there a yanking motion on television? Which I'm sure is the fulfilment of all of your career ambitions. Well, I mean, that's a minefield in all sorts of different ways, to be honest with you, but go on. So you don't have to say that because they have complicated it. So now if it's a Yankee motion, it's a straight red.
10:53If it's just a sort of gentle caress, like an affectionate rub of the head, it's a yellow or it's nothing. But this is the way that it works in the Premier League is that it's not a case of pro-ref, as I know now, going out and coming up with their own interpretations. It's always by survey from the clubs, the coaches, the managers. But it still has the effect of massively confusing everything. And that's what I agree with Chappas. I think with you, Dale, you're quite right, and I would not claim to know the kind of history of it as well as you do, but they have taken rules that weren't necessarily quite complicated to strike that balance between consistency and common sense, and they have made them impossible to understand, to the point where I actually think a lot of the time they're not entirely sure which bit they're meant to be doing, which is why we get these issues.
11:35Chris Sutton:But they're confusing themselves, aren't they? Yeah. They're confusing all of us. Yeah. That is right. I mean, the stuff you have said, Mark, about the tweaks over the years, I mean, it is really confusing. As an ex-player trying to keep up with everything and all the little tweaks from season to season, I mean, it's crazy. I do have sympathy for the guys who made the errors the other day because they were bad errors. they were the safety net and you know and they they just didn't make the right call but they they lost they lost focus in a minute but we all make mistakes we do it's just that was a particularly bad one i just you know what what happens now is and and it can be in this studio dale it can be in it can be in the sky studio something happens in the game and then somebody goes well do you think that was handball or and then somebody else goes well i think it is but then i'm not 100 sure and then everybody scurries off and gets the the whole law and then five five times out of six you're still none the wiser handball without a doubt it's the biggest mess that there is of all the laws this was changed in 2014 the process started it wasn't changed with vr it was changed because the ifab the lawmakers decided that they wanted to define handball they wanted to define it properly because they felt it was never properly defined.
13:00What they did, they created this menu of options for reasons to give a penalty. And so that's why we ended up with an absolutely massive spike in penalties across all of Europe. They changed the handball law about four or five times for both attacking reasons and for general penalty reasons. And no one knows where they are. And also, let's not forget, we've now got this bizarre situation where we have different interpretations in the European leagues depending on how harsh do they want to penalise it. So you can't get any consistency, and it's impossible to expect people to understand it. You've made a few...
13:33Can I just say, if Shea's daughter is listening this evening, your dad has got your sketch pad as his pad. Are they watching at home? She doesn't know about it. As his pad to make his notes. So you know when different pundits come in with different methods to make their notes, you brought your daughter's sketch pad and a poo bag with you. Well, Wasty Skinny Cat, that's right. The poo bag's a different story altogether. No, but just... Sorry. Sorry, going back to yesterday and back to VAR and obviously the Norbert talking point was the red card on Foden and as an ex-Manchester City player I actually think it was a red card on Foden but what I actually think as well I think it was a red card on Fernandes because his offence was as bad as Foden so why doesn't VAR in my opinion then step in and go Michael you probably got that right because Foden's reacted stupidly I think and it's not a mad kick out but the laws of the game I think is probably a red card so Michael Oliver's seen that but maybe he might have missed the first kick in of Foden on the back side when he's on the floor.
14:27So I don't know why there was no communication between the two of them then.
14:30Chris Sutton:That had to be the same, didn't it? That was sort of logical. I think you said on Match of the Day, Mark, it was a good line, even I laughed, was a nudge with the foot. What's the difference between a nudge with the foot different to, how's that different to a kick? Yeah, Danny Murphy called Bruno as a nudge with the foot. I'm like, that's a kick, isn't it? But that's the whole issue, isn't it? With large parts of VAR, they are so subjective. It's like the clear and obvious thing. One person's clear and obvious will be different to the next person. I mean, a couple of points finally, and then we'll get on to the football.
15:06So I've had a message here from someone involved in football saying, is there an issue that the problem isn't that the rules are that complicated, it's that the refs don't know them? I don't think that's the case at all. I just think that they are complicated and you can't expect everyone to fully understand them. I mean, I qualified as a referee a long time ago. Don't do it anymore now. But the process you go through to try and understand all the laws and all the different interpretations, the possible outcomes, what might not happen, what might happen, sorry. I think it's unlikely that these professional referees have been doing it now, some of them, for 20 to 30 years.
15:44Don't know the intricacies of the laws that they're applying. Adam in Tooting, I agree with Rory. It's not human error. human error is a consequence of a weak system, not a cause of itself. The system, procedures, technology, training must be fixed or it will continue to happen. John in Hertfordshire, problem arose because of pundits, fans, players and managers constantly moaning about refereeing decisions, VAR rule changes and the obsession with ref decisions are all a consequence of the woeful culture that has developed around referees. I agree with that. Now we're even more obsessed with referees than we ever were.
16:19but why why are we a referee if they got the big calls right yesterday in the Manchester Derby we wouldn't even speak about this I think it goes back years though Shay it's worse in Italy and Spain where Italy they invented an entire machine so they could pick apart refereeing decisions and a lot of Spanish whatever the Spanish equivalent to the Monday night club would be like 95 % just about referees but I think it did create an environment in which we kind of what's the word, like chastise them for not being perfect and now we've introduced a system that's just much, and I say this as someone who's not opposed to VAR as a concept, but it's just much worse.
16:58It is much worse now. I think the problem is that people expect VAR to bring perfection to the game, but that was never the intention of VAR, to bring perfection. It was supposed to correct certain things and also, and as you mentioned subjectivity earlier, the fact is half of these decisions, people can just argue about them, Like Shea said, oh, if they got the decisions right, then no one would have been arguing. But they would. People would have disagreed with this and felt somebody should have been sent off or not sent off. Or there'd be other decisions in the game, like, for instance, in Sunderland versus Arsenal.
17:29The problem is you can't get a consensus. So you're never going to get a situation where people think that VAR is working well. Rory talks about the survey that they did for the hair pull. I was thinking when I watched Saturday's games, at some point will people start to mention size of shin pads if somebody goes over the ball in a... I thought this with De Sasse, it's nothing against Jack Clark, but Jack Clark had, like several players now, shin pads that are the size of postage stamps. So if somebody accidentally catches you, you've got proper shin pads on. they actually had to change the law to make it the players responsibility to be wearing shin pads because they're getting so much smaller and smaller that like you say they're pointless is that an old man?
18:14he could have had cricket pads on and there would still have been a red card to be honest it was a terrible tackle from disaster I don't know what your argument is I just thought whether the size of shin pads would get brought no? no ok that would be funny with cricket pads on Dale, thank you very much. I'm also now thinking on the Spanish Monday Night Club, who plays Chris's role? El Club de Lunes Noche is what it would be. Who's the grumpiest ex-Spanish player? Pablo Alfaro, the former Sevilla defender, would be quite nasty. Can I ask that he had a trick that even VAR would be able to spot? Alfaro, who's a defender, played for Sevilla for a long time.
18:58I think he was a qualified doctor. and on the pitch he was an occasional amateur proctologist. Chris and Shea, if you found out three or four hours after a football match that the referees had been in tours to say, you know that goal that beat you, he shouldn't have stood. Sincerely, how would you respond to that as players? Well, I was involved in a famous goal that France scored with a Thierry Henry handball and I don't think we've got over that yet. So that was 2009 perhaps, I think it was. Yeah, so I don't know, you're feeling injustice, aren't you? I suppose yesterday's game is a big game and a big derby.
19:36There's lots at stake for both players and managers. However, Dale, thank you very much for coming in. However, as Ray says, Chris, all of that has been the full focus of the media. The more pertinent question is how Manchester United played 70 minutes against 10 men at home and couldn't score. Isn't the issue, really, and where the discussion should be, not whether that goal should have stood or not, but what is going on with them?
20:01Chris Sutton:Yeah, I think that that's absolutely spot on. And of course, you know, the goal happened. As Shea said, I thought that Bruno should have got the same punishment as Phil Foden. Regardless of that, if you're a Manchester United fan and then you watch your team play against City in a derby game and it is as flat and as slow and as ponderous as Manchester United were when they had the numerical advantage, That would be the major concern. And the start to the season as a whole, and we're only four games in. But, you know, then you look at a hole at the summer and the lack of activity in terms of Manchester United bringing players in.
20:47Chris Sutton:You look at Michael Carrick's decision making. I didn't know. I get why he plays Kunia as a centre forward. But as soon as as soon as Foden went off, surely there was a case of, you know, Sesko's, you know, a different type of forward who occupies centre-halves. But surely, you know, you'd throw him on. I thought he was late in getting him on. Maybe it's just because he doesn't rate him. So there are a lot of there are a lot of things, I think, that Michael Carrick needs to take responsibility for. and he's always quite level-headed and calm and I like listening to him talk. Doesn't get too high, doesn't get too low.
21:26Chris Sutton:But Manchester United need to start addressing the situation and need to start performing at a level to really get the season up and running because that wasn't good enough yesterday. They were talking about obviously Manchester United didn't do them any favours going down to Man City because then they had to sit back and defend low in a defensive shape. because Man United are invariably like a transitional team with the speed of, of course, Mbwemo, Rashford and Cunha. But when you've got that numerical advantage, you have to do something different. I mean, I think Cunha's not a number nine, is he?
22:02He feels like he's playing out of position. I mean, Sesko's the obvious one. I don't know why he's not starting. I know he maybe had an injury pre-season or whatever, but at the same time, he must be able to work him to get him on the pitch. But I don't know. I'll go back to the man yesterday, the performance they had and how they controlled it. It felt at stages whenever it went down to 10 men that United had 10 men because they just kept it past it. They couldn't get the ball off them. And that's the frustration from Man United fans. There was no sort of sense of urgency, it felt. And maybe that's because Man City played so well, perhaps.
22:33I don't know.
22:34Chris Sutton:I think last season Manchester United had an issue against teams which defended deep or low block, whatever you want to call it. Well, also, Chris, they have an issue against teams when the opposition get reduced to 10 men. So three times in the last 12 months, they've lost when the opposition has gone down to 10 men and gone down to 10 men with a considerable amount of the game left to play. At home to Everton, when Idrissa Garnagay was sent off after the fight with Tarkovsky, wasn't it? Michael Keane. Michael Keane. at St. James' Park, Jacob Ramsey sent off as a half-time approach there and then Phil phoned midway through the first half yesterday.
23:17They've got a problem when the opposition get reduced to 10. That's one thing.
23:22Chris Sutton:Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's an element of Manchester United players just looking to Bruno and for him to create something. There's not a lot from elsewhere, but I also think as Manchester United fans, the way that they would be feeling about the underwhelming summer. And I do think it matters because they did finish the season, you know, really strongly, third place, everybody on a high. And then you want to see them sort of go again in forward areas. I think Carrick just isn't having Cesco. That's, you know, my view. I think he's come off the bench four times this season. I think he came off the bench a lot of times last season.
24:02Chris Sutton:So if Carrick worked wonders last season as he did, why not? let him bring in players who he wants to bring in? Because, you know, Sesco doesn't... Kunja's not the answer as a centre-forward. And we know why Kunja plays as a centre-forward. It's to sort of drop in and get little overloads and what have you. But I just didn't get it yesterday. I understand the tactical element of the game, but you need to score a goal. So you have to have a centre-forward on who's going to occupy defenders. You can get crosses in. That's a legitimate way of scoring, but all of a sudden Carrick didn't throw him on early enough.
24:39Hang on though, Rory. Weren't we told that Manchester United were going to fix the attack last summer and then this summer was the summer they fixed the midfield? So from what Chris says, they haven't fixed the attack. And then next summer is meant to be the summer they fixed the defence. Yeah, I think it's slightly harsh to accuse United of having an underwhelming summer. I think what they had was a summer that wasn't kind of unsensible. and we've criticized United for years and years and years for kind of following fads or for thinking short term or for doing things reactively. It feels harsh and a bit hypocritical to then say, well, they didn't get involved in a ridiculously inflated market.
25:19They picked players who I think we probably all thought Thielmans was a smart signing and Belayba they tracked for a long, long time. Andre Santos maybe was a bit overpriced, but you can see why they did it. Why did they do it? If you can see why they did it Why did they do it? Well he's young I think he can play in lots of different positions He's obviously got talent And you do need You need bodies in midfield To an extent And I think what 47, 48 million was a lot For a player who's probably A squad option at the moment But But if you haven't got the money To then go and strengthen elsewhere But you want a left back And maybe Another defender And maybe another attacker Why sign Why Why go for Edison And then miss out on Edison and then why go for Santos if all along you're thinking you're going to get Belieber?
26:06Well, I mean, I would guess that in terms of the latter, it's just they thought they needed three midfielders rather than just two. The Edison thing is weird. I don't understand kind of what happened to it. I think Edison's actually said he doesn't quite understand why it fell apart before he signed his new contract with Atalanta. There's a suggestion of an injury, but I don't know what the cause of it was. I wonder whether the issue that United have got is that if you don't have an unlimited budget, and we talked last week, I think, about the fact they don't have lots and lots of players to sell, which means it's difficult to spend huge sums of money in the transfer market, given the way prices have gone, you probably do have to cut your cloth a little bit.
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26:43And yeah, look, they look underpowered. They've clearly got an issue when they're expected to dominate the game. I think their record when they have less than 50 % possession in a game is much better than their record when they have more than 50 % possession in a game. And that obviously is exacerbated when you're against a team with 10 men who kind of have an excuse. Harlan said that yesterday as well. They kind of have to sit in a little bit. They have to bide their time. They have to wait for their chance and hope that everyone forgets what the offside rule is. One of the other points that maybe you'll agree on more, but I'll go to Rory, that Danny made last night was a year ago, well, roughly a year ago, Chelsea went to Manchester United and had their goalkeeper sent off inside the first five minutes.
27:24and Mareska made two changes very early on in that game that were both defensive. I think it may have been Cole Palmer he took off and there was another attacker that he took off and they'd invited United onto Chelsea that evening, although they very nearly nicked something at the end of Chelsea. And their point was actually Mareska had learned from that experience and very much kept things as it didn't over, not over-react, but didn't let things play out after the Foden red card until half-time before making his change. I was at that game at Old Trafford. I think it was Esteval he took off as well.
27:58Esteval and Pedro Neto, they were the two he took off, yeah. Yeah, and he went very defensive very quickly. And I wonder whether yesterday he worked out that, look, it's okay to try and just kill the game a little bit, take control of the ball when we can, see if United can break us down. And as you get through the first five, ten minutes and you see that maybe they aren't cutting through, that they aren't making a huge advantage of being a man up, Maybe you think, OK, yeah, let's get to half-time. I don't know this, but my instinct would be most managers, even as Shea says, when it's the obvious thing to do tactically, probably don't want to take a player off in the first half unless they really have to, because there's an element of kind of you're risking the player having a bad reaction, I suppose.
28:39But I think that the last few weeks have been really impressive for Mareska in a way that has gone sort of under the radar, because that is an impossible job, replacing not just the best coach in City's history, the best coach in the league, but this kind of towering figure who's redefined English football and kids play out from the back now, it's all because of Pep. And in quite an understated way, Mareska's won every single game. And yeah, Bournemouth wasn't that impressive and Coventry wasn't that impressive, but they went and won in Porto midweek. That's another challenge pass, you know, winning after you've been in the Champions League.
29:15He has not put a foot wrong, Mareska.
29:18Chris Sutton:And, you know, with questioning whether Manchester United have made the right signings. And, you know, that's a debate to be had. But so he had the option yesterday. He could have put Rico Lewis on. He could have put Husonov on. He could have put O 'Reilly on, which, you know, moved Semenya to the other side. He had various options. But that just shows what a smart piece of business bringing Njai in. We thought he was all off to Tottenham. But to bring him in and have that trust and know he's going to work hard defensively. I mean, that looks to be a brilliant piece of business from Manchester City.
29:50Would you go along with Rory that he hasn't put a foot wrong yet? No, I would agree with him. It was nice to see him at the end of the game as he'd gone over to the away fans and you could see the smile on his face because obviously they had to dig in deep at times and there's a togetherness I think as well. I've sort of said this before about Pep leaving. You can never knock what Pep done. He's going to go down as an absolute legend of the football club, but that same voice every single day, the demands and stuff. Maybe the likes of Philpone or even Cherokee at times last year maybe didn't see IDI with Pep so there's a new voice a freshness within the club
30:24Chris Sutton:You're saying that's a good thing Pep left there? Yeah if you want me we want some headlings on this show then I think it was maybe time 10 years was a long time and I just think that the demands and you know I've seen some of the documentary stuff and Pep was looking a bit tired and says I've had enough of this type thing you know so I think the freshness that Maresco bring and of course he's brought his own staff in as well so that's all fresh and new for the players and the people around the training ground so So I don't think it's a bad thing, Chris, if you want to put me on the spot, yeah.
30:51You can understand that, Chris, can't you? I mean, you know. Well, I just see it. I know, but after a while, you get fed up of hearing the same voices, especially after a decade, maybe. Maybe more. Maybe more. Don't you?
31:06Chris Sutton:Yeah, maybe time for a cold. Let's judge Manchester City on Friday morning. Oh, sorry, back to City. That's what I would say. Judging when, sorry? Let's judge City on Friday morning. After Norwich in the League Cup, is that where you... Oh, my goodness. There we go, yeah. The big one. That's the big test. Most relegated team in the Premier League. Did you find that? As I started to find out today for you, Chris. Yeah, big Phil's in charge. Wait and see. Big Phil. Wait and see. Don't make too many changes, Enzo. The other final thing that I would say about Morescu, I don't know if you noticed this, Rory, or not.
31:40He seems... And I thought this when I interviewed him before the Crystal Palace game. he actually seems so much more relaxed than maybe and I know there was a lot going on at Chelsea over the last six months or whatever but he really, he feels very, yeah, calm and personable and like he's enjoying it. Why are you laughing, Chris? Well, because he's winning
32:03Chris Sutton:and probably the sports scientists aren't badgering him every second. You're back to the sports scientists. I wonder, I mean, that might be a fact. he will probably just find City a more conducive environment than he obviously did Chelsea. The other thing is, if you think about how it all kind of played out, Moresta lost his job at Chelsea because he told them he'd been speaking to City, which means that, what, eight, nine months ago City knew that he was the guy they wanted to replace Guardiola if Guardiola left. That's a pretty big vote of confidence, which means that he's probably in a place where he feels like he's wanted and valued and it's a place he knows because obviously he was there as a member of Pep Staff in two different roles for a couple of years.
32:44This is the Monday Night Club with Mark Chapman. On the Football Daily Podcast.
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34:03Suddenly along came Monica Sellers. She hit the ball big, she hit two hands off both sides. And just when tennis fans were licking their lips at the prospect of a rivalry that would push the sport to new heights, one of the strangest and most shocking sporting crimes brought it to a grinding halt. Monica Sellers has been stabbed by a spectator. This man stole her story from her. Sports' strangest crimes, tennis's darkest hour. Listen on BBC Sounds. This is the Monday Night Club with Mark Chapman. On the Football Daily Podcast. Shea Given, Chris Sutton, Rory Smith with us on the Monday Night Club.
34:45Let's talk to former Rangers midfielder Scott Arfield next as we turn our attention to the old firm. Rangers make it through to the Scottish League Cup semifinals with a big win over Celtic. Do you feel, Scott, or do we have to wait a little while, whether that is a turning point for Rangers? No, I think it's a great start. It's a great start. There's been a lot of negativity since Derek McInnes was appointed. There was a lot of negativity with the players, the recruitment, but I think they've done a strong way. They're right in there now. That's five wins out of five in the last five games. So I think that now there's momentum.
35:24Everybody knows that football is full of momentum. Everything, you can build it in weeks and months and seasons and it can get taken away very, very quickly. So I think they're in a good, rich vein of form right now and it's all about keeping that momentum as much as they can. To beat your rivals very, very convincingly will go a long way to settle the noise up here. I'll just get, so they obviously had the nightmare result against Jablonec in the Europa Conference League. Since then, they've won at Pitodri, They've won at Falkirk. They've beaten Motherwell. They've beaten St Mirren. All of them only by a goal, only a goal in it, in all of those games.
36:06Some ugly victories in there. Pardon? Some ugly victories in there. Well, I wasn't asking for that at that moment. I was just giving context to Scott in that, whilst those wins have been there, whether they've been ugly or not, they've won them. But yesterday was the first day they managed to put daylight between themselves and another side. Yeah, and it was very convincing it's probably as easy a game against Celtic I've seen in a long, long time Celtic came heavy, heavy favourites yesterday and it just rose to the occasion it was just from minute one to the 90th minute Rangers by far the superior team obviously no Celtic fans in the stadium, obviously has a massive effect on the players and it'll be reciprocated next week because obviously it goes again next week and it's a reverse fixture.
36:57So it did have a lot to do with it. But as you say, I think the attacking options now that Rangers got a little bit more depth and Kelsey coming in with a massive, massive price tag. Rangers paying£9 million for a striker. He had to make an impact. He played on Wednesday night. Never really got going. But he made a lot of people happy with that price tag yesterday, obviously getting his goal. So I think in attacking options, now there'll be progression. now there's optimism around the full club now. Derek McInnes has talked about togetherness. He said, I love the togetherness. I need to have a team who cares for each other, has love for each other.
37:37When things aren't going well, you sometimes see the true strength. We've had some soul searching and tough times the past few weeks. Can you see a togetherness? I'm not just talking about the team spirit. I'm talking about how they are playing Can you see things starting to gel Before Chris comes in with some disparaging comment Or other It would be unlike him wouldn't it It would be unlike him Well obviously Listen if you win games you're obviously going to be happy I think there's going to be bigger tests Going forward Starting next week at Celtic Park I think that will be the true test I think it's easy to be To be full of optimism and high-fiving each other and cuddles when you've got 50 ,000 behind you.
38:23So I think that's a fantastic start. As I say, it's an absolutely amazing performance to put in, but I think the true test going forward, you're talking about togetherness and a real team spirit, I think that'll be really tested come 12 o 'clock next Sunday. Go on, Chris.
38:39Chris Sutton:I agree a lot with what Scott has said. I think that was a hugely significant win for Derek McInnes because you spoke about the winning run they were on, Rangers, and it wasn't pretty. Beating St Mirren late on Falkirk, they were fortunate to win, but they did win. And he sort of needed a statement victory. I think there was a lot of talk going into this game which manager was under the most pressure. But the way that he set his team up, and like James Penrides, the left back, that have played in an inverted role in the middle of the park. And Derek's team's over the years. He likes to go man for man.
39:19Chris Sutton:And they ran all over Celtic physically. They were far, far superior. I agree with Scott as well. Let's just wait till after the game on Sunday and see. But I've got great concerns about Celtic. And I've said this from the start of the season. Celtic's midfield is lightweight. Celtic's midfield is talented. but it's lightweight. They can't run. They don't have the legs. McGregor's been a brilliant player. You've got Nigra in the Swedish International. There was a big debate about him last season. He's got a brilliant instinct for goals, but he can't run. And then they brought in Bauer from Germany and they just got outpowered in there.
40:04Chris Sutton:Rangers were far more robust and ran all over them. I've got to say, I didn't agree with the Celtic starting lineup that they brought in... Hassan, the Egyptian international, played at the World Cup, who I think is a little bit frustrating in terms of his final ball at times. But I haven't seen anybody able to really handle him in terms of his dribbling ability. And he was on the bench. I don't know what the actual reason was him for being on the bench. But I thought that handed Rangers a massive initiative. And Celtic were never really in the game. And Celtic have big issues because the two big tests they've had this season away against Lask in the Champions League, which was a disastrous performance where, guess what?
40:53Chris Sutton:They got ran all over in midfield. And then, you know, you look at what Martin O 'Neill said before that game. And I mentioned him before, Arna Engels, when they sold him to West Ham, which is fine. But they've never replaced that player like for like with profile. and so they don't have that legs and energy and someone who can cover the ground in midfield. And I always felt when you play against better teams, Scott was an excellent midfielder himself. I occasionally played in midfield. Not again. But you do. There we go. Lower numbers that day, lower numbers. But that element, you know, it's okay being a good footballer, but Celtic have a midfield who are good at five a side.
41:34Chris Sutton:But, you know, the game is played on a big pitch. you have to be able to cover the ground and get about the pitch and compete and Celtic don't have the midfield made up they've signed two midfielders I think on deadline day who were attacking midfielders by all accounts so they haven't replaced like for like it just feels like Celtic the way the club is run that they just want to do enough just finish ahead of Rangers, finish ahead of Hearts and they've got the Europa this week and when you look at Rangers now don't have Europe, they're in a pretty good position. This may all change at the weekend, and we may see, you know, Rangers go under at Celtic Park, but I bet the sort of leg up, the lift that the Rangers players got from that performance, that does feel significant, and it's up to Celtic to respond.
42:28And sort of following on from that then, Scott, so six players made their old firm debuts for Rangers yesterday. day so will that benefit them when they go to Celtic Park which will obviously have a very different atmosphere to it and let's not forget no away fans there either so does that has is it important that they've had that experience already or am I comparing chalk and cheese no it's it's a very strange game it's the best game in my opinion it's the best game in world football, it's the biggest, the repercussions and everything that goes with it is just so drastic you need to be up here to live it obviously Chris has lived it as well so you need to be up here to understand it, I think the experience is one thing, winning is another thing but I think they're so unique they are so so unique because whenever you think it's going to be a copy and paste it can become a completely different game and I think the experience of the game, the magnitude of the game, you have to feel it, you have to be there and really really understand what the bragging rights for both sides of this city.
43:36Can I ask a really stupid question? Does it still feel like a proper old firm without away funds? For me personally, no. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. We grew up watching these games and the colour of both sides is a proper game. There's obviously the minority. What happened last season obviously have changed this again. when I came back up in 2018 there wasn't anyone then there were 700 supporters allowed in each side of the stadium so it wasn't no, I wouldn't say it is a true old form game but the repercussions and everything that goes with the magnitude and the demand of the game is obviously still there and that will never ever go away so to live it, to feel it, I think these players it will go a long way for them to experience it and getting a victory is absolutely huge it'll be a copy and paste again from Derek McInnes on Sunday he'll try his best to obviously mirror it but Mark McNeil he's a very clever manager I think he'll come up with something a wee bit different as Chris said James Penway's coming into the middle of the pitch and just man marking Negrin who's the only goal threat from midfield for Celtic and it was an absolute masterstroke he was my man of the match I thought he was excellent and a great addition to this team I think he'll do it again because you give Negan any 20 yards out he's going to find the corners of the net.
45:00So I thought that was a massive thing. That'll be a copy and paste but it's such a unique game and me and Mr Sutton will be sitting next to each other in the best seats in the house again watching it. I was just going to ask you Scott briefly about Celtic in a sense. I'm still, because I'm obviously a Celtic background and of course I'm still trying to get over the last result in the Champions League was just to be 4-0 up. I still can't get my head around that. Martin mentioned yesterday about a reset button or a wake-up call after the game or whatever exact word it was. I mean, what's the sort of media up there like today, I suppose, from a Celtic point of view?
45:34Is it harsh, yeah? Oh, yeah, you can imagine. You can imagine, yeah. I was listening to a few interviews, Callum McGregor's interview after it was very, very damning. He said a few things. It was Rangers defended as a team and Celtic were a team of individuals. So for the captain to come in, I think that's just a kick up the backside for the magnitude of this week in particular. Obviously, they're starting with Europa League on Thursday and then the huge game again on Sunday. So, yeah, everything that you thought could have got written about these Celtic players, it has been written, as you can imagine.
46:07Chris Sutton:The problem Martin O 'Neill has is what can he change, what can he do? On the face of it, are we going to be truthful about Celtic? This season, they've been flat-track bullies. They've beaten a lot of teams. in truth you'd expect them to be. And yet in the big tests, they've not just come up short, they've come up well short. I think it's mainly because of Celtic's midfield area. But then he's got a problem with Camilo Duran. Where does he play him? He's got him and Kasper Hu and he could play two up top. Would he go back to a back three, which he did when I was there? But then you've got question marks over who are the wing backs going to be for Celtic.
46:47Chris Sutton:I don't think Martin can go to a 4-4-2 because Celtic will just get mauled in the middle of the pitch. But six players came in around deadline day, so that surely gives them options. Yeah, but you said, what do you mean, come on? You said, what can he do? What can he do? What can he do? And I'm saying, well, isn't that... Panic on deadline day and bring players in. Bring a left back in who's barely played a game of football, who's injured and can't replace Kieran Tierney who never lasts 90 minutes. That's great logic. That's really well worked out from, you know, brilliant recruitment there. I mean, it's just bonkers.
47:24Chris Sutton:Martin O 'Neill's on record. People don't need me to say this. Martin O 'Neill was on record about the need to replace Arna Engels and that profile of player. And they haven't done that. That is taking a risk. Why would you take such a risk like that? And they'll address it in January. But at this moment in time, the way that Rangers won this weekend, and I know it's a different kettle of fish going to Celtic Park. But, you know, I don't know what Martin can do really to change that midfield area. He's just got to hope that they can compete in a more robust, you know, he might bring the boy Oliver Sorensen in.
48:07Chris Sutton:But, you know, where does he fit? Who is he going to drop? But, you know, as I said, I think if he starts, they've lost Yang to the Asian Games, who's the Celtic left winger, who's had a particularly good start to the season. I think that he he was badly missed. The guy they replaced him with, Tenech, he was, you know, didn't have a lot of courage and never, ever thought that he could beat Dujon Sterling, the Rangers right sided player. So he was a disappointment. A lot of Celtic fans were surprised he started. but that was you know it's a difficult one for Martin because what does he do start James Forrest who's you know getting on a bit on that side but I think if if Hassan starts at the weekend then Celtic will certainly offer more of a threat and try and push Rangers back but their best player Camilo Duran sort of he ended up he finished the game on the left-hand side I don't know that they ever played on the left-hand side but you need to you need to keep him happy I think and play him in his favoured position, which is centre forward.
49:05Chris Sutton:But then they've got Casper Hu, you know, the 11 billion signing who, you know, many people think he's not done. You think they'll bring in Oxlade-Chamberlain, Chris? But that's not really going to make that much of a difference because Oxlade-Chamberlain has been a brilliant player, but he can't, he just can't run like he used to. He can't cover the ground. And that's, that's the issue, isn't it? And that's where Rangers, if you're Derek McInnes, is thinking, blimey, we can run all over them again. They can't afford to lose this, Rangers, can they? Really? No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. They're obviously favourites to go and lift the trophy.
49:38It's the first trophy of the season up here. So it's so, so important. And it will go a long way, obviously, to start Derek McInnes' legacy. So it's a huge, huge opportunity. Need to get through Aberdeen first and then obviously into the final. But as I say, it's momentum. They've got it now, five out of five. It doesn't matter how you win. It was the most important thing, obviously, getting the victory in a Derby day. But it's now about positivity. and positivity because they go out of Europa League, they go out of the Conference League qualifiers and it was disastrous for Rangers after August to not be in European competition.
50:15But as Chris has said there, Celtic playing on Thursday after a big result yesterday, then playing on Thursday again and then for the big game. A week for this preparation could go a long way again for Rangers to get the victory and it could just be too much for Celtic. you're talking about the physicality in the middle of the pitch. That's why I was asking about Oxlade-Chamberlain obviously coming in, maybe making a little difference, just putting a wee bit of quality in the middle of the pitch. Might do that on Thursday, might do it on Sunday. But I think the disaster of start that Rangers have had, it might actually play right into their hands come the energy levels on Sunday.
50:53Scott, do you think that that kind of winning at the weekend and potentially, as you say, with that advantage of not having to play midweek, does that kind of get McInnes' reign back on track or is there still a little bit of a shadow cast by what happened at the start of the season? Oh yeah, 100 % there is some negativity there honestly it is unacceptable for Rangers not to be in a European competition after August it's just you need to try and be in that any competition after Christmas never mind in August so of course it was disastrous but he's now gone a long way he always speaks so so fair about his assessments of the game, he's always got a real fair assessment of it, he knew it was a disastrous start but all you can do now is try and beat your rivals as consistently as comfortable as you could he's went a long way yesterday to do it and he's got another chance in six days time to do it again and gradually gradually it might obviously overcast everything that's happened in August Scott, thank you very much for coming on We talk about the difficulties of playing central midfield in an old firm game.
52:01I have a match report here from 2000. You all right, Chris? What? Who digs this stuff up for you? I have a match report here from 2004 when Chris played in midfield for Celtic against Rangers. Unfortunately, Alan Thompson was sent off in that game. So the report then goes as follows. O 'Neill's response to his team's predicament was predictable. He removed the disappointing Henri Camara, brought Pearson off the bench and pushed Sutton forward to lend his considerable weight to the attack. The big Englishman, who's been a consistently telling influence for the Parkhead side since his arrival in Glasgow, on this occasion rewarded his manager with the most foolish sending off imaginable.
52:50Having been cautioned in the first half for a high challenge on Alex Ray, Sutton lasted only 11 minutes at the second before reaching out to handle a header from Marvin Andrews back to Kloss.
53:01Chris Sutton:Yeah, that was the position of the arm. If we'd have had VAR back then, I'm sure I'd have stayed on. Oh, dear. So, sent off in that? Yeah, sent off, yeah. Research team's on fire. Who kicks this stuff up? I mean, that's appalling. Scott, thank you very much for being with us. Scott Arfield, former Rangers midfielder, with us on the Monday Night Club. And you can listen to The Old Firm on Sunday here on Five Live. Shay, Chris, Rory, thank you very much. With Five Live Sport and BBC Sounds. Hear all the live exciting action from the WSL. And it's bigger and better than ever before. Get all the latest news and interviews from the biggest stars of the women's game Alexa Vitez, welcome to the Women's Football Weekly I love competition, I love football, I love training, I love to improve To win a league like the WSL you have to be at your best every single week Listen with the BBC Sounds app
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From the publisher
Mark Chapman is joined by Chris Sutton, Shay Given and Rory Smith. BBC Sport’s Football Issues Correspondent Dale Johnson joins the team to chat VAR after the controversial decision to allow Erling Haaland’s winning goal for City in the Manchester derby.
Away from VAR, why do United struggle to play against 10 men?
Plus former Rangers midfielder Scott Arfield talks the Old Firm. Is this a turning point for Derek McInnes with a dominant win over Celtic to make it through to the Scottish league cup semi-finals.
TIMECODES:
01:00 Manchester derby & VAR debate 03:00 Dale Johnson 13:40 Does anyone know the rules? 18:50 What is going on with United? 24:50 Signings 28:10 Maresca 32:00 Old Firm with Scott Arfield 40:00 Celtic midfield
