MNC: Ollie Watkins’ future & why aren’t Premier League teams ready

22:08So it's almost a weird situation where the guys making the decisions don't really understand that as much as obviously the coach and the players. The modern game, eh?

22:18Chris Sutton:Well, it's not though, is it, Chris? Because in amongst all of that, Nick in Kingston emailed us, mnc at bbc.co.uk. Hi, MNC. Speaking about fitness and recruitment, I'm really looking forward to Keith Andrews getting Brentford fully fit and up to speed. And they are a shining example of the modern game. And yet they've got their recruitment done. They've probably, as everybody keeps saying, got one of the players at the transfer window, if not the deal of the transfer window. They're fit. They're battered Spurs. So the point is it can be done. Are people just making excuses? Yes, I think very much so.

22:57Chris Sutton:I think this has been a remarkable weekend and neither should we be getting overly carried away with Brentford after one game and the signing of Sengari, who looks very good. I've got to say, Statman Dave, Mark, who we know well, was picking it up a while ago and thinking one of the big boys I was talking about him to Manchester United, I think. So fair play to Dave. But yeah, he looked very good. I mean, they haven't done loads of recruitment, but the fact that they were organised, fit and ready, we shouldn't really be sort of lauding that and applauding them. That should just be the norm is what you're getting at.

23:46Chris Sutton:It's been a really odd weekend. I think the opening weekends of every Premier League season are odd, but I think it has been odder because of what a lot of the managers have had to say about where their team are at in the stuff that you've touched on, about their teams not being ready. How can you start the season, a Premier League season, and not be ready physically? I don't get it. As well, Chris, I don't think Brentford's opponent, Spurs, can have much excuse in that department because for once, they finally got their business done early. A lot of their key players came in. You look down at their squad, not many of them participated in the World Cup or went deep in the World Cup.

24:28So I've watched a few of their pre-seasons game. They had a settled team. So they can't have many excuses in that department.

24:35Chris Sutton:And we'll do fitness from eight o 'clock. But Spurs are another example. They've done loads of business, but they're still trying to buy a whole new forward line, which they haven't managed to do yet. Steve Walsh, former director of football at Leicester and Everton, joins us now. Evening, Steve. Good evening, everybody. Are you, given your experiences, are you surprised at how many teams still appear to have a lot of work to do recruitment-wise with eight days of the transfer window left to go? Yes, I am surprised. you try to get your business done early in the transfer window but obviously the guys have alluded to it it's not always that simple if you're a lower team you're wondering are you recruiting for at the end of the season let's say you look at the teams that went down from the Premier League who are they recruiting for or are they recruiting for the championship, when it's not being decided whether they're going to be in the Premier League or not.

25:45So that's a mitigating factor. But yes, most clubs that are organised, and I like to say that I tried to get my business done early, certainly when it came to windows. As many times I've told the player that if he doesn't sign the contract, right, I'm closing the doors, I'm going to close the lights and we're going to be leaving the training ground, so it's up to you. It's got to that stage at certain points. So it's not, some of the players that are signed have kind of five agents on one occasion. A very well-known player had five agents, so I had to go into the room to say, I'll speak to one of you, So you decide who's going to be the spokesman, bring him into the room and then say to them, listen, I don't fancy you a player.

26:46The manager really wants, now I've shown you the deal, that's it. If you want it, take it. If you don't, let's close up and we'll see you later. So it does get to that stage if you get that very late in the window. So I would say try and get your business done early, know who you want to get, use your analysis and algorithms and everything else that goes with it but then make sure you've had people out to see them live you know I think that's a crucial part

27:21Chris Sutton:Can I just ask you one on that and then I know Andros wants to come in but just on Brentford, I appreciate you haven't worked at Brentford but Brian Mbuomo on a French podcast recently said he chose Brentford ahead of other clubs he said what shocked me was are the scouts that came to see me 28 times in the league de season they pointed out my strengths my weaknesses how I could improve everything I met other clubs but I thought to myself Brentford really want me they did a thorough study and if I go back to your Leicester time and I don't mean this in a disrespectful way but do you think that clubs of Brentford or Leicester have to show that extra care and effort rather than relying on, well, we're Manchester United, come and sign for us.

28:08Yes, I agree fully with that. When Jamie Varley signed for Leicester, I brought him up into the room where we did all our audio and video stuff and I showed him why we wanted him. I showed him detailed information but also detailed video footage of him doing what we wanted him to do. And that wasn't necessarily scoring goals. It was working hard. It was closing people down. And the one thing I said to him, if I was playing centre-back against you, I wouldn't want to have the ball because I wouldn't know where you were. You were closing people down. And even if you didn't score goals, you know, you'd make them for other people because you're so quick and can put people under pressure.

28:57And we convinced him. I think at that time Southampton were in for him and I think a club like Peterborough as well were in for him and they both wanted him to sign. I think the fact that Nigel Pearson was kind of his boyhood hero up at Sheffield Wednesday back in the day certainly played its part as well. But we showed him that we wanted him to, we made him feel like he was going to be part of the furniture. Andros? Steve you mentioned that obviously you wanted to get the deal done as soon as possible obviously we know managers the same in your career how much pressure did you have from owners and the guys with the money to wait for the right deal as opposed to just paying over the odds to get them through the door July the 1st I wasn't swaying too much to be honest I was pretty straight talking and if they didn't want to come that was fine as well but I remember when we signed in Golo Kante I pretty much got him kidnapped his agent his agent at that time had a tag and couldn't leave Paris so I got another agent to organise him to come across and I just said look you're not leaving this room until you sign that contract but interestingly

30:17Chris Sutton:was there competition for him because again the argument with Sangare is at Brentford, you know, a lot of people were talking about him. As Chris has mentioned, he was in the league team of the season. It's not like he's a hidden gem. And yet there are other teams, and I'm not being, well, I suppose I'm being disrespectful to Brentford here, but there are other teams who may think they have a greater reputation or lure to a player than others who are spending two or three times as much on a midfielder than on Sangare. Do you think that sometimes some of the bigger clubs can be snobbish sometimes?

31:00I think so, but you don't cut your nose off to spite your face.

31:09It's about being good at your job. It's about that gut feeling. This player, I've got to sign this player because I really believe in him. How much does it change when the deals you're doing are for more money? Because obviously Kante, Mahrez, Vardy were all, it's a lot of money, but by kind of the standards we're seeing now, you've gone for a steal. But as you then are starting to think about 10, 15, 20 million pound players, how much more justification are you having to do to the people above you to sort of justify spending that amount of money? I can convince them. It's easier to go to them with a cheap deal if somebody's got a buyout clause.

31:55I also found that was pretty good both at Everton and at Leicester. I remember signing Adrissagana Gay and I knew that there was a 3.5 million release clause in his contract. so when i went to everton he was the first player that i signed even though it was on my list to go to leicester to replace county before i i left and so i had had that kind of in in the store so you know if you're asking them to to part with a lot of money uh they want to see the stats uh and you you bring the stats together uh to to convince the the owners that this is the player to sign and then you'll bring them video footage and the more examples of them being a good player, the better.

32:50So you can, you know, if, listen, I'm spending 60 million of your money, mate, you need as much knowledge of this player as possible. And it's not always easy. It's not always an easy sell. You know, it's their money. It's not yours. Do they sometimes say no? Oh, Erland Harland when I was at Everton. Really? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Back in the day, I had him in the building with Alf. And I didn't get the... He was 17 at the time, so you can understand there was maybe some doubts about him. But I had no doubts. What would you have had to pay? I think it was 11 million euros at the time, I think.

33:38Was that Salzburg? No, no, he was at Mulls. He was at Mulls, yeah. And Jim Saulbeckham was his agent at the time, and then he changed agents after that. Subsequently, obviously, things kind of snowballed for him after that, meant to book Dortmund, et cetera. One way of putting it, Steve. So, yes, so sometimes, even when the deal's a relatively cheap deal, it's about trust, isn't it? When I was at Leicester, I was trusting implicitly when I was at other clubs. Not soon.

34:11Chris Sutton:Steve, thank you very much for coming on. Appreciate it. Thank you. You always, Steve Walsh, former director of football at Leicester and Everton. And I can just think of all the Evertonians I know at the moment banging their head off a desk. A couple of my really good friends, brother-in-law, nephew, I could just, oh my word. He might not have cut it. He might not have cut it at 17. Very true.

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36:39Chris Sutton:Chris Sutton, Rory Smith, Andros Townsend on the Monday Nightclub but as we've been saying this opening weekend of the Premier League season seemed to catch more than most a little bit cold I knew after off-and-hand game after off-and-hand game I said that we are not in the right point we are late for the start of the Premier League. Often, especially at the beginning of the season, where our references are not really set, you can make mistakes, and they were really good at exploiting mistakes, and they scored twice. Do you just put it down to a little bit of rustiness when you make mistakes like that in the first game of the season?

37:21Yeah, it's often the case. It's not unusual, but today it was massive. Probably we started the game the worst way, we knew. Newcastle at home, first game of the season, and you just spark the atmosphere, they are going to start strong. No excuses at all of this game, but it's the start of the season, of course. Maybe players are a little bit finding the form again.

37:45Chris Sutton:So you heard Roberto Deserbi, Regis Lebris, Andoni Araola and Luke Shaw there. Anton McElhain has been on the Monday nightclub before, and in fact, the last time you were on, Anton, as a former Premier League head of performance, It absolutely hurt my head by the end of it as we went through everything that you have to plan and work through when trying to plan players, regimes and training with a manager. But when you hear so many people say, not ready, not fit, bit rusty, need to find form. Do you understand that? Because I'll be honest, I think there's quite a few of us a little bit sceptical about this this evening.

38:24Yeah listen it happens it's one of the ones obviously different clubs different managers the training regimes that they have obviously I and Josh will know a little bit from Mauricio's time it taught them how intense it was so obviously as a player you can sometimes maybe go into that first game a little bit fatigued and tired but like that they were very strong and fit so again each club is very different I think one of the key things are for players is have they done enough games have they had 90 minutes under their belt how many 90 minutes if they actually had, if they only had 75 minutes of a game, getting into that first league game.

38:58I think it's really crucial how many games, what's the training, the different travel restrictions. I think Andres would have had every way into Asia. If you go to America, the different travel restrictions with it can cause chaos for players and coaches, World Cup, all the different ins and outs. So it can be very challenging and very difficult to actually have your best 11 for the first game of the season in prime condition because internationals are playing in the World Cup. They might be playing different tournament success and it's very challenging to actually get them on the pitch and train them to the level that you want because you want to understand that they may be in fatigue from a long season, you know, maybe a 60-game season for certain players.

39:38Chris Sutton:So, I mean, and last time you came on, to understand the planning of a training session was absolutely, and everything that goes into it, was absolutely fascinating. but if let's take let's take Spurs and I'm not saying just because Roberto De Zerbi was quite big on the fitness I am would it be right in saying then that a pre-season routine for Spurs you're still not treating every player the same they could have individual routines still because of what they had done during the summer is that is that how it would work Yes A good example is In Andros' case many years ago He was coming back injured He was a new manager So again he's got to be in the right condition But the key thing there is Obviously you might have players that they're looking to sell So they might not be getting full minutes I think that's one of the key things Is the actual manager starting a living Making sure he's getting the right players But again everyone will have an individual need Of what the weekly load is looking like but can they actually cope with that because I think under Conte it was extreme pre-seasons for the players under Harry Kane and they were really worked hard so again it's really tough but again to get that individual in the player is different different injury needs different needs based on what they've done in the off-season but one of the things now is I think with the individual players is they're all going away and doing their off-season work it's a new generation of players so I do find it quite intriguing that some teams are not in peak forum again you're trying to return players in the team to peak fitness but you've got a whole season again you don't win anything in pre-season again that's during the season so it's really key to actually have the individuals firing on all cylinders but making sure that they've played the minutes needed to actually play for a Premier League season because the Premier League as you know is the toughest and the most demanded Anton first of all I hope you're well it's been a long time how tough is it as a fitness coach to have your plan for pre-season and then have your 20-hour trips to Asia, your signing sessions and your commercial side of it, when you just want to get the players fit and focus on that, how difficult is those outside elements when you're planning for a pre-season?

41:59Listen, you understand that it's very challenging, all the commitments, but what you need to be is you need to be adaptable. I think you need to stick to your principles of performance training. You know, when do they need to recover? When do they need to do the work? it's key I think we obviously travelled America, Asia, you've got to get the work in but obviously you've got to find it in the right times because you've got the jet lag the time zones, changes in that, it's so complicated but it's about maximising the work that you do have so whether that's in prep, whether that's in the gym on the pitch I think it's one of the things managers will want to do doubles and triple sessions or can you condense it maybe into one session working under Ange wasn't really big on two sessions a week sorry two sessions a day so you had to have maybe longer sessions etc so it's really key but again good communication with the staff trying to maximise each day and each week with the coaching staff for what they need and the individual players it is really crucial but again communication strong planning and being adaptable that what you might want to do you might have to sacrifice a little bit of that for the player to make sure they're actually fresh because being fresh is equally as important about getting them ready for the first game of the season because actually if you've done a 60-game season, you've done a World Cup, you are in theory fit.

43:19But again, sometimes that freshness, you might be fatigued, so you've sometimes got to manage that.

43:23Chris Sutton:On that then, is there an argument of you might not be 100 % match fit for the start of the season because the programme that we are putting in place is that you will be at peak fitness, say, I don't know, October, November, December? I think ideally you want to be ready for game one. I think that would be the crucial thing, that you are ready for game one. But I think the club's worth strong squads, strong physical outputs, will be able to play 60, 70 minutes for the start in 11 and then bring another five in. So working on the range in 20, 22, 23, there was only certain players that played 90 minutes before the opening game.

44:05but we continue to do pre-season friendlies all the way through August to get the other players up to speed but we had a strong squad and he used squad rotation 60 minutes, five subs going on and we had like-for-like physical attributes as well as technical attributes so I think the squad can be crucial as well that you actually have a strong squad that can actually go and do the game demands so if you've got physical runners, you've got Dyson Maida who just went to Ipswich if you get players like that in your bench or even at Andros who had Supreme Fitness it's dead easy to put like for like but if you don't have that same depth of squad and they're not at the same level you're in trouble so that's why you need everybody in the team to be at a high level for game one because you need to win your opening game

44:46Chris Sutton:Chris because obviously fitness wasn't a thing when you played so away we go. No no we didn't do individual plans in the summer we just used to have 12 pints of lager a day and eat pizzas and what have you weren't bothered about fitness what I would say I can't ever remember coming back for the start of the season and not being fit I'm really interested Anthony in your view on De Zerbe's comments, he talked about the physical condition not being right I think the point Andros made about Pedro Porros at the World Cup, he talked about you know, he brought this up himself he wasn't pushed on it, he talked about the trip to Australia and that you know that being a bit of an issue but surely he's he's now been in for the best part of 150 days now and you know i get that you we can sort of cut him a bit of slack because of what happened at the end of last season kept tottenham uh up but but surely he can say no to certain things you know surely the most important thing from a tottenham fan's perspective is for the team to be ready physically and and you know teams can play badly and and you know brentford good team which they were, on their day, they can beat anybody in the Premier League.

46:07Chris Sutton:But for the manager to offer up so many excuses about the lack of physicality, I just, I found that absolutely astounding. It was like the interview which he gave after the defeat by Brentford, that was like an interview which you'd hear halfway through pre-season. So that is on him, really, isn't it? Yeah, 100%. I think it is one of the things Andros will tell you having been there for many years at Tottenham the first game of the season is the most important thing with Wandy Ramos who won lots of pre-season games Andros was part of that pre-season and then they went on a terrible run the lost players the manager gets sacked after I think 19 games and Harry Redknapp came in listen it's first and foremost once that first game goes you've got to be ready I think like that it is you've got to look at have they done too much I think the travel does kill it I think you've got the team that go to Australia and New Zealand the jet lag is unbelievable the fact that international players can cope with that it takes three and four days out the body Andros will have it he's been over in Asia it's really difficult to come back so that impacts the training but again it's all for finances so I think that's one of the problems that the you know whether you take your younger players to the tournaments and you safeguard players and keep them behind Andros had stuff like that back in the day Tottenham way we played European matches with our first team and our 21s team to protect players I think it's key but you can't accept you know looking into your opening game not being ready you've got to find a solution I don't think there's time for that to look and go look we've got a few games three or four games you get in the Premier League and you can be sacked as a manager so in his performance staff we need to to support the manager and figure out solutions that was one of the key things working with elite managers is how can you get the players ready are they fresh are they fit?

48:01These are elite players now. They're not, you know, looking back 20 years ago, they're having poor off-season. These guys are in great condition. So I do find that the patience... I've got to say,

48:10Chris Sutton:I take offence to that. I really do take offence to that. I think that's, I think that that's a ridiculous throwaway, really. You can suggest that all players 20 years ago weren't bothered about the physical fitness. Listen, you understand you, Jim Henry at Celtic, you know that Jim drove a hard pre-season, in Martin O 'Neill. Obviously, you understand some of the pre-season stories. You wouldn't mess with Jim Henry. You wouldn't mess with Jim Henry. I know exactly who he is. Top guy. Obviously, great people at Celtic. So, listen. But again, the mentality was is you had players that could turn up on a match day, Chris.

48:48So, obviously, players that came a Saturday afternoon were ready to play. I think that's one of the key things. The mentality part, whether it's just the physical part, the actual mentality part of preparing for games is crucial as well as the physical, the technical. Go on, Rory. I was going to say, I've got two questions. Anton, do you think, and it's related to Chris getting to talk to you about his own sense of his own mortality. Are we kind of wrong to think about a pre-season? Because it's not, is it? It's not like there is a defined break. There were players playing until, what, July the 19th for the four countries that made the semifinals of the World Cup.

49:25They then get a couple of weeks break in which they are doing their own fitness work, they are coming back in the best nick they can, at which point at least half of them have to get on a plane and fly to Malaysia or the United States or wherever. We think...

49:42Chris Sutton:First class, and they have all the tight pants, which, you know... I mean, their wardrobe choices are no business of mine, Chris. People can dress how they like it. It's 2026. is there a point at which you're not actually really getting to do that like baseline thing where you say right we set our standards now as was the case for years and years and years what you're doing is trying to to manage a decline in their fitness or not decline their fitness but like sustain a level in their fitness against these overwhelming obstacles that the endless packing of the calendar are throwing in your way which means that what we're seeing to an extent is football is richer than ever and in lots of ways it's kind of more global and advancing tactically and technically and in terms of nutrition at light speed, but everyone's always knackered.

50:37Is that fair? It's difficult. I think it is fair. Listen to Andros days, Chris's days, it was still there. The travel and the commercial agreements, but the thing was you've got to find a way around the problem. so like that I know for example maybe the first 10 days would be brutal doubles, triple sessions no days off to get that base level before you then went and travelled because it was going to be impacted but when we'd done it in America you still worked out there were still doubles, triples and you had to cope with it whether it was Celtic for example the guys would maybe be playing Champions League qualifiers three or four weeks in guys like John Kerry they would have to work the team hard so you had to do it You don't have that luxury of, we'll just wait to the first game of the season.

51:24You had to do it, but you've got to find a solution. So it is difficult, but I think it can be an excuse of getting to that first game of the season. You have to find a way around it, get the players fit, whether it's doing chamber work, whether it's in the gym, all the different parts and being smart with how you train them. My second question was, you hear it a lot, managers coming in saying the players aren't fit enough. and as soon as I hear that I immediately think it's excuse because I as much as I can believe that some managers have highest fitness standards than others I refuse to believe that any manager who's operated in the Premier League since Chris Sutton was a boy even before Chris played back in the black and white days had players who weren't fit like it seems you're presumably talking about minor like gradual incremental differences in fitness or different types of fitness even rather than well the previous guy let them all get fat

52:16Chris Sutton:And I was going to add on to that, actually, because that was going to be my final question, Anton, which is in this day and age with everything that is available to performance directors and players and you mentioned Chambers and this, that and the other. Would there be a massive difference in fitness requirement for Roberto Di Zerbi coming into Spurs or Ira Ola coming into Liverpool? Because that's what we're told. You know, that style of football requires a different, is it maybe just a different type of fitness rather than a greater fitness? Andrew can testify to it. I think to play a high-pressing, high-style game, you have to work as in volume and intensity.

53:01The work that was done with Mauricio or even Anand, very different styles, but the work was hard. The training sessions, everything from prep, gym, was all about the game style. How do we press? How do we recover? how do we run it was so tough and it was survival of the fittest so I think it's really key the key thing is is the players to actually do it I think Andros was a testament to the high level of young players at the club there was a lot of fit players obviously Andros Ryan Mason Nabil Benta Lab guys that could run play technically excellent so I think you need the right players and I think you need obviously the right players to play that style and again you have to either recruit that Pep Guardiola done it Man City after one year okay Walker come in if you don't have it you're going to have to bring in the right players to cope with your demands and then you have to accept a little bit what that actually looks like but again in fitness levels I think the top players are everything Andros will tell you their levels are so much higher to a league one maybe a championship player I'll just add on to that because going from a Tim Sherwood to a Maurizio Pochettino was like night and day like before michael pochettino it's right i want to be fit when i have the ball i can dribble forward i can do my stuff whereas pochettino is like no like 50 of your game now is what you do out of possession can you start the press can you um sprint back can you run without the ball in behind so there's a big difference when you get these managers like an iraola who uh they put big demand out of possession it requires a lot more physically from the player than just your standard sort of low block manager.

54:43Chris Sutton:Anton, thank you very much for joining us. Really appreciate it this evening. Anton McAleon, former Premier League head of performance. That's it for this Monday Nightclub. Thanks to Chris, Andros and Rory. Next up on the Football Daily, Carell Prince-Lie Detector.

55:38Five Live Sports. Listen on BBC Sounds.

56:09and that's with Kyle Smith-Bino joining us and then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist discredited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desiree Birch we'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parrott so if that sounds like your sort of thing listen to You're Dead to Me wherever you get your podcasts thank you, bye