MNC: Spurs' injuries and Chelsea's character

20:59But then on my spreadsheet, Steph, you know, Dominic, look, Mark, do you like that? It's a great spreadsheet. Dominic Solanke was missing from game three to game 20. But as soon as he came back, they lost Mohamed Koudas. It's like one in, one out. And he's been missing since game 20. Richarlison was then missing from game 21 all the way through to game 25. And if you throw in, then Solanke comes back and at the same time they lose Bergwahl, for example, or they lose Bentancur, for example. Now, it's not all related to Solanke, but it's just that we often talk about settled sides and getting relationships and getting combinations together.

21:37And it's very easy just to either hammer Spurs or for all the neutrals to laugh at Spurs. But actually, when you look at, as soon as they get someone back, they then lose someone or lose two or lose three. They have also been, as well as not being very good, they have also been very unlucky. Yeah, but it's the thing about you make your own luck, don't you?

21:56Mark Ogden:I was speaking to a former player about this and this is a bit of a trend in the modern game whereby players aren't able to build up any resilience because the sports science teams are now so keen to say you can't play more than 60 minutes, you're not able to play more than 60 minutes. They don't play more than 60 minutes. So, I mean, Steph and Chris are no better than I do, but sometimes if you push through that 60 minutes and you play 80 minutes or 90 minutes, you've kind of psychologically and physically gone through a barrier. Whereas now, players aren't able to do that and if that's making them more fragile, more brittle, just not in Tottenham but just a general thing about throughout the game we see a lot of players that I mean under Amber at United players are coming off on 60 minutes because he was told that if they play any longer than this they're in the red zone and managers are paranoid about it but sometimes you've just got to play through the pain barrier and play through and get I mean Chris is smiling whether he's thinking old school No no

22:40Chris Sutton:I think it's fascinating what you say because you know it's sports scientists you know they have a role to play and and the fact that I mean, that was part of why Maresca left Chelsea, wasn't it? You know, the interference from that. But I think it's a great debate, really, because that's sort of the resilience which Mark talks about. I mean, certainly when I played, which wasn't that long ago, managers would actually manage and that would be their call. But the manager actually isn't managing all the time now. You know, it's a whole team effort and they are getting advice and the manager will be saying, well, how can I go against my medical team?

23:27Chris Sutton:That is what they are telling me. But I think there's something in what Mark says, you know, that players, I think if you ask the players, they'd want to stay on and go through it. And that sort of brings that mental toughness. And, you know, that's part of the game. But it feels like maybe that certain people in certain jobs have to justify their existence and that's what sports scientists are doing. Let's see Newcastle. It would take an astonishing turn of events for them to be dragged into it and Newcastle fans have got enough to worry about as it is, haven't they? Yeah, it's not going to happen, is it?

24:02Mark Ogden:You're right, they have got things to worry about and I think it does feel like Eddie Howe may be on the way out in the summer and I think Newcastle will live to regret that. I think he's the sane voice in that club that they need in terms of calmness. You think there's a real... Yeah. Yeah, because the mood has turned amongst the fans. I think the fans have become frustrated. I think what Eddie Howe is not getting, he's not getting the benefit of the doubt for what happened last summer. You know, the Isaac situation, which was beyond his control. And I think in terms of the players that came in, they lost to Sporting Director last summer.

24:29Mark Ogden:They've had all sorts of upheaval. And they didn't actually have a Chief O 'Z. No, exactly. So, you know, Eddie Howe is one of these managers that likes to be in control, but they don't have the control they used to have. So he's not totally in control of recruitment. They brought players in late. They brought players in that weren't stitched to the club. They've had injuries. I just think he's a really good manager anyhow. But in terms of the Saudi situation, it's coming up five years in October since they came in. And obviously the view that they were going to become like Man City and spend the way to success hasn't happened.

24:56Mark Ogden:They've not been allowed to because of certain situations with PSR. But there's obviously a bit of fear that Saudi Arabia's interest in sport might be waning. Obviously the lift golf situation, they seem to be reconsidering that investment. But what I've been told is that one thing that is absolutely ring-fenced is their interest in football in terms of the World Cup in 2034. That's the massive project. That's where the funds are going to go. And somebody gave me an anecdote about their interest in Newcastle. It's like having the best street in London with 20 houses on it. You know, Newcastle is a big house on that street and Saudi Arabia want their house on the street.

25:27Mark Ogden:So they've got a Premier League club. It's a massive thing to have. It's not just about football. It's about all sorts of geopolitical things. So it's very, very unlikely that Saudi Arabia are going to just wash the hands of Newcastle. But whether they're able to invest and transform than like Abu Dhabi at Man City. I think that's unlikely. But I think we'll know what Newcastle's ambitions are under their third-year-old ownership when we know what's happening with Eddie Howe. And if they make a change and go down the superstar coach route, then we'll see a different approach. But I think right now it's interesting times and I do fear for Eddie Howe, to be honest.

25:59So is that, to sort of use the house analogy that you use, that they're happy to have that house and it not be the best-looking house on the street?

26:11Mark Ogden:I think they'd like it to be, but they're not allowed to make it the best looking. I mean, look, in terms of the revenue, if they were generating more revenue, they'd be able to spend more money. Now, they're not in the Champions League next season. They might not be in Europe next season. There's an outside chance they might get in still. So the chance of bringing more money in that way is diminished. They saw these last summer, so that brought money in, but they spent most of it. So they may have to sell again this summer. So until they get their revenue to where it should be for a club of Newcastle stature, because it was virtually nothing under Mike Ashley, then they're going to struggle to bring the players in that they want to.

26:42Mark Ogden:So they're playing by the rules, but the rules are very restrictive. But I suppose they could, Steph, invest in infrastructure. And there's been all sorts of talk about this. You know the North East. There's been talk of stadium and improvement and extension and infrastructure. But that is a long game, isn't it? you've got to play the long game there because whilst that will increase revenue it won't do it overnight No and I think that's what Newcastle fans are probably getting a lot frustrated with in terms of at the minute is talk in terms of there's not real concrete plans in extending and making a new training ground extending the stadium and I think of course when the team isn't playing as well I think all these things come to light I think if the team was performing and you had players on form I think it would be a different conversation but I think for me it's like what do Newcastle want from their team now what is the expectation because the expectation is to be in Champions League every single year but you haven't got a squad that's able to compete and that's why I think they've suffered especially the second half of the season is that the squad's not been able to cope and I think it would be a real shame if Eddie Howe leaves the football club because of everything that he's done and I feel as though he is the man that could maybe turn it turn it around a little bit they've not performed that well this season but ultimately I think he has Newcastle's interest at heart and I think he can develop players even if they do lose some in the summer.

28:11Chris Sutton:Everybody's allowed a bad season aren't they Chris? That's what I think and I think Newcastle fans I'm not saying all of them but some you know maybe have forgotten what Eddie Howe walked into at Newcastle and Mark spoke about the recruitment so So that was where, if there is a criticism of Newcastle, their recruitment in the summer was or has been particularly poor on the face of it. They spent the best part of£250 million. And the players that they brought, other than Chow, you'd say, he's been a decent signing. But Alanga has been on the periphery. Ramsey's been on the periphery. And the two centre-forwards who were brought in to replace Isak Isak just haven't fired.

28:55Chris Sutton:I mean, Isak's numbers the last two seasons, 23 goals, 21 goals, they've got eight goals between them and they spent a fortune on them. And then he's tried to use Valtemada in a midfield role, which doesn't suit. I don't get a lot of things right, Mark, but I did get Valtemada right earlier on this season because he's not a player who necessarily suits Eddie Howe too because he doesn't run in behind. He becomes so predictable because he's not mobile, a little bit like Suchek at West Ham, he's not particularly mobile. And then Wiss said, he hasn't got going and then maybe, I've got massive sympathy for Eddie Howe because maybe that whole Isak saga maybe he should have made a decision quicker.

29:42Chris Sutton:But hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it? Because if he'd been sold in June it would have probably benefited Isak, Newcastle, Liverpool, maybe Eketike as well. Who knows? They also let Callum Wilson go last summer as well.

29:57Mark Ogden:They let Callum Wilson go. So that was another striker that went out of the building. So they had to start from scratch. And, you know, they should have read the writing of the wall with Isak much quicker. I agree with that. And I think that would have helped them get players in. But they tried for a lot of players, you know. Mbumo, Eketike, Gio Pedro. And Newcastle's problem is they're a big club, but there are bigger clubs out there. And when those bigger clubs come for players, they're going to go to the bigger clubs. So Mbumo went to Man United, Jarl Pedro went to Chelsea, Sesko went to Man United.

30:21Mark Ogden:So that's Newcastle's problem. Apart from when they signed Alan Sheeran in the 90s, they've never really been able to deny the biggest clubs the players that they want. So do they, in your view then, do they need to reassess their targets so that they are going head-to-head with Brentford? Well, they need to be smarter. I mean, Aston Villa maybe. You know, a club that has got similar ambitions to Newcastle. I think if you're going to be up against Man United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City for players, you're not going to get them. You're just not because they pay bigger wages to bigger clubs.

30:54Mark Ogden:And there's also that element, certainly with foreign players, they want to be in London or they want to be in one of the Manchester clubs or Liverpool. They won't go to Newcastle unless it's the only option, but it's the tier two option, isn't it? And that sounds disparaging to Newcastle. It's a reality. Chris, Steph, if you had a chance in it, maybe not you, Steph. Go back home. But, you know, there are certain clubs that players want to play for. and then the next tier, they want to get the best of the next tier so that these players can develop and then ultimately, unfortunately, like Isak, they'll move on.

31:22And then that, I suppose, is the problem they've got flipping it now. And Luke Edwards at The Telegraph said this on the Football Daily. There are some players that have been accused of already having one eye elsewhere. And actually, the worry, I suppose, for Newcastle, just on top of everything else, is that they've got two or three of what you would call their main players who are now being linked quite strongly with moves away. Yeah, the likes of Anthony Gordon, you've got Bruno, you've got Tonali, I think, in terms of what are they going to do at the end of the season? And you can see the effect that Bruno and Sandro Tonali had on the team on Saturday.

32:04Newcastle were better against Arsenal in comparison to the games before. But, of course, if Newcastle don't make Champions League where they are at there in their career, maybe not so much Anthony Gordon but I think in terms of Bruno and Tonali I think they have that option to have a number of clubs that are going to be wanting their interest in them going to their clubs but that's the danger when you don't make Champions League I think you see top players and you see other teams that potentially are going to be in the Champions League wanting to buy them sorts of players

32:31Mark Ogden:They have to make fast decisions as well they have to be ruthless about it this summer and decide in May or June that if they want to let them go and then be more strategic about it so they're not waiting until the last week of August to replace these clothes.

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33:52BBC Radio 5 Live. Patrick Kielce. Stumbling your way into Saturday mornings with great guests. Good morning, Jimmy Nesbitt. Good morning, the party. You're terrible. Kids taking down commentators. You've wiped the floor with our commentator key. And how does it feel?

34:07Chris Sutton:It feels nice. Football chants from the gods. Take me home like it rolls. The less said about the host, the better. Patrick Hiltzy. Saturdays from nine. Listen on BBC Sounds. This is the Monday Night Club with Mark Chapman. On the Football Daily Podcast.

34:34Four games to go. every team in the Premier League could either still be relegated or mathematically qualify for Europe not all the same teams obviously that really would be an astonishing season but everybody has something to play for Yeah and I think that's when you look at the fixtures even say we talk about the likes of Spurs, West Ham, Forest Leeds I think every single game has got something on it like you look at say Spurs have got Villa next game they want to kind of cement their Champions League places in between playing Europa League against Forest. Even last game, we may be saying that Leeds might be out of the relegation battle, but they've got to play Spurs and West Ham, so they've got such a big part of playing the actual battle itself.

35:17So I think it's amazing. I do think that from watching the Premier League, this is so exciting. It just shows how competitive it is. And if you're not on your game, then you do get punished at this moment in time. Palace, Newcastle, Leeds and Forest are actually the four teams that could either go down mathematically or qualify for Europe mathematically. So there are four who could go one of two ways. You do think, Chris, don't you, when you look at the table, when we're looking at the race for Europe, that this feels like big opportunities for Everton and Fulham and Brentford and Bournemouth and Brighton.

35:56Chris Sutton:Yep. And especially, so what is it? If Villa win the Europa League and finish fifth in the Premier League, that's a sixth place finish will be Champions League. They have to finish fifth though. They have to finish fifth and win it. They can't finish third and win it. They have to finish fifth and win it. But because of the gap they've got to Brighton, I mean, it looks like it's going to be out of Villa and Liverpool for the fourth and fifth spots, really. I mean, things might change. But you think of the incentive now. I mean, you know, that is a possibility. but you mentioned clubs like Fulham and Brentford tonight, the possibility of getting Champions League football for next season.

36:38Chris Sutton:I mean, that's absolutely amazing. And I suppose it does show the strength of the Premier League. It's everything which you want in the Premier League for it to be this competitive.

36:50Mark Ogden:And yes, Chappers, do we? I mean, without being negative, do we actually want that? Because Newcastle have struggled in the Champions League these years and they've got the resources to compete. Forrest have struggled in the Premier League, being in the Europa League. If it seemed like Brighton or Brentford are in the Champions League That could lead to relegation We've seen clubs with a smaller budget They're so negative I know but it's true

37:09Chris Sutton:I mean if you're a Brighton fan Imagine them getting in the Champions League Do you think their first conversation will be Do you know what we could be going to Madrid and Barcelona Oh there's a good chance we'll go down

37:25Mark Ogden:So I mean it was switch get relegated one year when they're in the Europa League. But anyway, Forrest could win the Europa League, get relegated and be in the Champions League next season while they're playing the Championship. So it's just, there's a lot of spinning plays going on here. I just think that, yes, all clubs must have ambition to want to get to these places, but there is a flip side and a club being able to cope with it. I mean... I read an article on that, on Forrest, in amongst putting my injury spreadsheets together, that if they did that and got relegated but qualified for the Champions League and then I think it was if they made the quarterfinals of the FA Cup and the semifinals of the League Cup and the playoffs in the Champions League they'd end up playing, was it 90 games?

38:13And then the article went on to try and work out whether anybody could actually play 100 games in a season. But Forrest would They'd hit 90 In that situation

38:23Chris Sutton:Just think about How many managers They'd go through But they could

38:28Mark Ogden:I mean The Championship plays Every midweek So when would they play The Champions League games I know But There is Yes I suppose there is Not with Forrest But there is a wider point there Yeah I mean Obviously clubs need to Have ambition But sometimes clubs Can overstretch And we've seen clubs Overstretch in the past And then they end up You know Paying for it And I think That is the danger But you know Brighton and Bournemouth and Brentford, very well-run clubs. But if you're Marco Rose going into Bournemouth and you've got to follow Andoni Areola and also have a Champions League campaign with a club that's never even been anywhere near it, that's a tough ask.

39:01It's brilliant. You'd be absolutely buzzing if you're coming into Bournemouth and you've got a chance to manage the Champions League. I understand in terms of it's a different workload for the squad, but ultimately the Champions League brings money. You'll be able to go and buy better players and you've got the attraction of playing Champions League football. I think it's amazing that it's not just the general teams that are just always going to make the top four or five. And obviously if Villa do win the Europa League and they do finish fifth, there's an extra place and it's an incentive for different teams.

39:28But I think I look at Brighton, I love the way that they play football. And I think in terms of what they do, I think it could be an attractive way of playing Champions League. We've talked about Brighton and we've had Fabian Hurtster on the Monday Night Club. We've had Danny Welbeck on the Monday Night Club, Chris. And we've had Brighton fans on. And actually, them missing out on Europe last season, Brighton fans, I think, felt a bit flat about that. So this feels, you know, yes, Brentford and Bournemouth and whatever, but they haven't necessarily been here before. Whereas Brighton, it feels like, have been here before a little bit and missed out.

40:05So this actually feels bigger for Brighton than any of the others, doesn't it?

40:08Chris Sutton:It does, and we can't get away from the fact they weren't happy, the Brighton fans, with Herzler earlier on in this season. They've been on a great run recently, but there were Brighton fans who just couldn't take to him and wanted him out. So it's been really important for him that he's turned it around as much as anything. And their form is, I think they won six in eight or something like that. So they are finishing the season like a train. But yeah, I think the issue they have is you think about their recent past and their recent journey and then fans get, naturally they get sucked into that success and just want European football again.

40:52Chris Sutton:Of course they do. And they're right to do that. Have a go at Mark, he was the one who was talking about them getting relegated. He was talking about them getting relegated. You're not having to go at the fans for wanting it.

41:04Mark Ogden:Leicester nearly got relegated. They're in the Championship. They won the Premier League. They got into the Champions League and nearly got relegated. I mean, Chris, what did Blackburn do when they were in the Champions League after winning the league? It was a bit of a tricky season, wasn't it? Sell them.

41:14Chris Sutton:Yeah, it was a long time ago now, Mark.

41:16Mark Ogden:Yeah, players fighting each other.

41:19Chris Sutton:Yeah, yeah. That was another low point. Yeah, I was part of that. Well, not part of the fight, but part of that squad. But yeah, what were we talking about? Would you have In amongst all your negativity About The game relegated and so on Where would you put Everton in all of that Because I was talking to David Moyes before the Merseyside derby And he's very much We want to get European football

41:46Mark Ogden:Well Everton probably needs it They've got a big new stadium They've got that ability to grow Obviously they need to find investment in the squad Because being in Europe means that Especially now in the league phase You're looking at at least eight more games so it's a big drain on your resources so you have to build the squad and David Moyes is a sensible manager he knows that the Premier League is the priority and you don't want to have a stretch in the sense that your squad can't cope if your squad can't cope with playing all those games then you feel the sting in the tail the second half of the season but Everton are a massive club they've had 30 years of not doing as well as they should so this is the chance for them to build and to grow and I think they've got that ability to do that considering their history, their tradition their fan base, their resources they've got so yeah Everton would relish it but I think David Moyes would essentially know that he'd have to build a squad up for it I think in the weekend it was a really missed opportunity for Everton I think in terms of the race for European football because if they'd have won on beat West Ham at the weekend that would have took them to 50 points which is where Brighton are at this moment in time and I think the next game is against Manchester City at home which is going to be a big game so in terms of where you can pick up points I think Everton have got the potential I think they've had a really really good season I think they've got players that like, say, Jules Bihol.

42:59I think he's something special and Di is something special. So I do think they need European football to kind of keep them types of players. But I think Everton will be kicking themselves because of the weekend, Chappers, if I'm being honest. Chelsea in the thick of this as well. They're one of three teams who are on 48 points. So they're a point off Bournemouth in seventh. They're two points off Brighton in sixth. They did make the FA Cup final at the weekend. They'll take on Manchester City on May 16th. Enzo Fernandes got the goal. Chelsea's first clean sheet against a Premier League side since January.

43:36And they came into the game after a run of five straight league defeats. Let's hear from the man who is in charge at the weekend, the interim boss, Callum McFarlane. The character of the group was exceptional, and that's been questioned a lot, and rightly so at times maybe.

43:50Mark Ogden:But that is us at our best. And I think we need to show that level as often as we possibly can, because this group's massively capable of that.

43:57Chris Sutton:On that kind of character being questioned, I mean, Enzo Fernandes was decisive today. He was so motivated from the first minute. I mean, I've got to be honest, Calumet, part of you, are you thinking, where has that been? Because I'm sure the fans are wondering where that's been in recent weeks.

44:12Mark Ogden:No, no, I wouldn't. I wouldn't question their character. I think their question is being, their character is being questioned because of the results. We're playing against top teams. you have bad moments you get into a rut the momentum is so important we've seen it with some of the best teams in the world you can go on losing streaks and people are too reactive to the result that group's got massive character you don't beat PSG in the Club World Cup you don't beat Barcelona and there's loads of other games you don't come out of that spell and show that performance the character shouldn't be questioned but I understand why but that group's got a lot of character a lot of mentality a lot of winners in that changing room and I was really happy we could show that today Should their character have been questioned, Chris?

44:52Chris Sutton:Yes, yeah, I think Callum McFarlane got that, you know I know why you're saying that He's trying to keep the players on board So I understand his tact on that But he can talk about winning the Club World Cup And talk about beating Barcelona But we all saw the Brighton performance where everybody watching that game was looking at that Chelsea team and was thinking there is a distinct lack of effort from these Chelsea players. And that is why people were questioning their character. And I'm not buying the fact that just because they've had won a result after Liam Rossini has gone, that this Chelsea team is back in any way, shape or form.

45:39Chris Sutton:I still think they've got a long way to go. It lives, Chris, doesn't it? Even though you've got a new manager, the previous results and especially that Brighton performance, the players did give in. Unfortunately, that's what happened. I think everybody was trying to say, you got the tactics wrong, you got the wrong formation, you played three at the back, but it wasn't that because Brighton massively outplayed them, but they massively outrun them as well, which was the most worrying thing. I think when you have a team that stops running, it's so hard to get it back. And I think, of course, yeah, great result yesterday in terms of getting to an FA Cup final, but it'll be these next four games where you really see what players are about.

46:16And when you have a young squad that lacks leadership, which in my opinion, I think they do lack leadership, like players on the pitch that are going to get a hold of each other and really push them standards, I just think for the last three or four months I've really, really missed that. Trevor Chalab has said, we have to look at ourselves as players and take responsibility from now until the end of the season. It's not about making excuses. Robert Sanchez said on McFarlane, it's been a bit of fresh air. Callum has always come in with a positive attitude and winning today, along with the performance we put in.

46:45It gives you a massive boost to keep going for the final four weeks. Is this basically, well, it's not really our fault, it was Liam Rossiniers?

46:52Mark Ogden:They're just rubbish, meaningless soundbites, aren't they, that every player trots out when their manager gets sacked. But I think what was interesting, Callum McFarlane mentioned those big performances that Chelsea have had, the Barcelona game, the club book, were both under Enzo Moresca, a play that the players believed in. They didn't believe in Liam Rossiniers, and I think that was obvious as it wore on, And certainly the last few results, you can certainly point the thing at the players. And, you know, Enzo Fernandes was, I thought, was outstanding against Leeds. Real leadership on the pitch.

47:17Mark Ogden:You won the game with his performance. But he went A-1 under Rasenia. Obviously Rasenia. And Rob Green said in commentary on Five Live, that's not healthy for a football club. No. It gets them to the final, but give a player an inch and they'll take a mile. Yeah, absolutely. And obviously Rasenia didn't handle it too well with the two-match internal bandwidth. I'm not too sure how much that was Liam Rasenia doing, by the way. I think that that was maybe imposed from the people above him. and it was a message being sent. Yeah, but that was his doing then, Mark, wasn't it?

47:42Chris Sutton:Well, he applied the message. Yeah, but in that moment, could you imagine David Moyes getting that message from above? And that's where he has to stand his ground with that one. Even somebody like Michael Carrick.

48:00Mark Ogden:Yeah. Well, Michael Carrick's got, you know, the players look at Carrick, a Champions League winner, a player with credentials. Liam Rossini didn't get the respect of the players because there's no way that he could earn that respect with his coaching credentials or his playing background. And clearly he was put in there by the five sporting directors and two owners to do their bidding. They diminished the role of the coach by appointing Liam a senior. That's not to denigrate Liam a senior, but he's never, ever qualified for it. So in some respects, I have some sympathy for the players, which they are top professionals.

48:31Mark Ogden:When you play for a club like Chelsea, you expect to be challenging for the big honours, right? but the club have a responsibility then to give these top players a top coach. You're basically letting your players down if you're saying, there you go, there's Liam Rossini. Chelsea usually have Ancelotti's, the Mourinho's, the Tuchel's and they've gone away from that but Marescu was getting to that point where he was becoming a big manager. He delivered trophies, wanted a bit more say and wasn't allowed it. But isn't the interesting phrase there he was getting to the point where he was a big... So when he joined he wasn't a big manager?

48:58No he wasn't. He had one year in... At Leicester. Yeah, at Leicester and that was it. And a Guardiola protégé. Yeah, but it kind of...

49:03Mark Ogden:So does that carry more weight? I think it does. The fact that a lot of the players he was working with knew him from his time at City. And, you know, he had more credentials. He had success at Leicester, which is more than Rossini had at Hull. So, and Rossini didn't help himself with some of the things he said and some of the things he did. But I think sometimes it's very quick for us to criticise the players. But players have a short career. They want to win. And if they feel that any element of the club is not to their standards, then they're not going to be happy. And if you're Enzo Fernandes or you're Marco Correa or Cole Palmer, and you see a guy that's coming in as your coach, as Liam Sr., he's nowhere near the level of those players.

49:39Chris Sutton:So that doesn't give them any excuse to down tools. No, it doesn't. In the manner which they did.

49:44Mark Ogden:It doesn't, but you can understand their frustrations. I mean, Chris, Steph, if you were playing for a coach that was not at your level, how would you feel? How would you feel if you had been... Look, we saw it at Celtic with nonsense. Sometimes a coach comes in and he's just not equipped to coach the players. And there's going to be an effect on that. There's going to be a backlash in whatever respect it comes.

50:03Chris Sutton:But you still have a responsibility as a player for that club under contract to go out and do the best that you possibly can. And there may be then ways from inside where you can make waves to try and push for a manager to get out. I don't know. It never happened to me in my career. stuff like this. But, you know, I don't necessarily agree with you about buying in for sympathy for the players. And that sort of seeps through, that will seep into the dressing room and that mentality which we saw at Brighton and the Chelsea players, quite frankly, should feel ashamed of the way that they performed against Brighton and the way they let Liam Rosinia down, whether they liked him or not.

50:56I just think, for me, I think Rosinia came in and I agree in terms of I think he spoke a lot about things that weren't really important in terms of performance. I think there's been so much spoke about the huddle, of course, Enzo Fernandes, if that was from him. But even then he was carrying on the conversation. I think it does create so much noise. And when you're a player in the dressing room, Chris, you'll just be like, we just don't need to be speaking about it. Everybody wants to just get on the pitch. But I think the players really liked Enzo Mureska and you can tell that they did. Well, they said it.

51:29Mark Ogden:I mean, Kukare and Fernandes said it and that was part of the problem. That's why Fernandes got suspended. And that's the worry when players are actually doing the interviews and actually referring back to the old manager that they know that they're not going to buy into whoever that next manager is. I think I agree with Chris. I think there is a little bit of an attitude problem with some of the players. I think they probably have this so much expectation because they're young, but they've not really lived through that career to be that resilient and to go through bad patches like this. so the automatic thing is just to spit the dummy out and that's exactly what they did against Brighton and they've got four games left where they're under an interim manager again that they all know is going to be nice because they're known from the academy or they've all come through the academies being part of the first team for six months now or four months so it's easy for them but it's when the next manager comes in they can't just down tools like they did against Brighton Just a final one do you have some not sympathy for Racine because I'm sure he'll do very well out of a very short-term spell there.

52:30But he did do well at Hull but was fired at Hull and he didn't get them up. He was going well at Strasbourg and the sort of perception is he wouldn't have had much choice in actually going to Chelsea, whether I'm sure he wanted to go. But all the same company, right, you're coming. And now he's having to rebuild. and his next choice will be crucial for him, actually. It will be massive, but I think at this moment in time, it'll probably hurt because he probably expected to be there for one or two more seasons than he actually was. But I think when them opportunities come around, you have to take them and he had to take that job.

53:10But like what Mark said, in terms of when the club isn't aligned or the sporting directors aren't really going to back your manager, then you've not got much hope, to be honest, because I think he was trying to change things in the right way. I spoke about the culture in terms of the team huddle. That was a bigger thing within the club. I think when you have that lack of leadership from the top down, obviously it does seep onto the players and the pitch and that's just how it works in football. So I do have some sympathy. Could he have done things probably a little bit better? Yeah, but ultimately how many managers have been to Chelsea have not succeeded.

53:42Thanks to Chris, Steph and Mark. More commentaries to come on Wednesday. Arsenal are away to Atletico Madrid in the Champions League and then on Thursday we've got Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa in the Europa League.

53:57Welcome to the Wayne Rooney Show. Wayne went along to Carrington to meet Manchester United captain Bruno Fernandes.

54:04Chris Sutton:Before I saw you guys playing so many times and I was following the club for so long, just coming to the club was already a dream come true, a privilege. Never thought or dreamed about being the captain of the club. I just wanted to play for it. Portugal have given me two worst nights of football. I was in my grandma's house. I run with my cousins. We run outside in the streets. The Wayne Rooney Show. Watch your night, player. Listen on sound. Saving money on everything for your next project when you shop at Menards. Menards has a huge selection of bagged concrete and mortar mixes. Great for any project.

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