Monday Night Club: Will Glasner and Frank see out the season?

27:53Not been plain sailing at Crystal Palace either recently. They are without a win in 10 matches. They've been knocked out of two cup competitions in the space of three weeks and that includes the defeat by Macclesfield. On Friday, the club announced in the same press conference that both their captain and manager are leaving. Mark Gay's move to Manchester City now confirmed this afternoon. This is how Oliver Glasner reacted to their 2-1 defeat by Sunderland on Saturday. Couldn't make a sub. We have no one on the bench. I feel that we are being abandoned completely because I can't blame any player.

28:29They did everything they could, and this is for weeks and months now. We have 12, 13 players from the squad available, feel no support. And then the worst thing is we're selling our captain one day before a Premier League game. We're preparing. It's the first week we are training since September. And then we're selling our captain one day before a game. So I have no understanding for this, and I always kept my mouth. But I can't because I have to defend these players. That was Oliver Glasner. And Dan Cook from the HLTCO podcast joins us on the Monday Nightclub. What's been going on? I mean, particularly over the last, what, 10 games?

29:04Well, I mean, obviously the last victory was against Shelbourne. And with the greatest respect to them, they're a team you would expect to beat home or away. I would suggest that, you know, Oliver Glusner, you've just played that clip. He's been speaking about, you know, squad depth and everything else. Obviously, it's going to catch up with you. You've got an incredibly congested period of games, but we knew this was coming. You know, you think about playing in four separate competitions, trying to defend the FA Cup, going as far as we can in the League Cup and playing in Europe for the first time proper you were always going to be stretched and I don't know I look at the situation in relation to that press conference on Friday he came out and announced that Marguerite is leaving now I understand that he would be frustrated at that because he's his captain and the rock at the back etc etc but in that same press conference he disclosed that he told the board that in October he wasn't going to be signing a new contract.

29:59So I'm not quite sure what he expects the club to do when we're out of both domestic cup competitions, haven't taken Europe as seriously as we should, and are going to have to be in a situation where our manager next season is trying to pick up the pieces without a coach that's got that continuity there, and the captain and rock at the back. So it's a very difficult situation for all concerned, I feel. I think he was talking about the timing of it as well. when the Eze announcement was made in the summer, that was the day before a game. The Gahey decision was made the day before a game. And he was talking about having the rug pulled out from under his feet.

30:36And I think he's saying, and he mentioned, the fact that he looked at the bench and thought, there's no one to replace them with. So it feels as though, or it sounds as though, he's trying to say, these players are going and they're important players and they're not being replaced. Well, I mean, you can look at that two ways, I feel. You know, one, obviously you don't want to lose your captain a day before a game. But when Manchester City say we want him to be withdrawn from the squad, we're going to be paying him 300 grand a week. We don't want him getting injured. It's a very difficult place for both Mark Gay and the club to be.

31:09Secondly, you've got JD Canvo there, a defender who admittedly came in from Toulouse and isn't necessarily a Mark Gay ready-made replacement, but who is? I don't understand from a man management perspective what saying I looked at my bench and there's not a single individual we can bring on does. You know, Cristian Tosuche may not be an all singing, all dancing number nine, but he's not a terrible footballer. And you immediately alienate that entire group with a single sentence. Whether or not he was thinking about that in his post-match comments, I don't know. But it just seems like management 101 to me.

31:42Strange comment in terms of, as you say, raising the morale of the bench. Andros? Yeah, I was just going to say, Dan, And the problem Oliver Glasner has is in the summer, Crystal Palace wanted to sell Mark Gahey. He's out of contract to the end of the season. Oliver Glasner throws a fit. If he goes, I go. And of course, you back your manager, your most successful manager, got you a FA Cup, got you into your backing. But then two months later, when he says he's going to leave at the end of the season, and in January, you have the last opportunity to sell your captain for some decent money, you can't back your manager who's going to leave in six months.

32:18Unfortunately, you have to take a business decision and take the money and reinvest it into the group. So I kind of agree with the Palace board on this one. I don't know if you agree. Yeah, so do I. I mean, you will always get, there is an element of our fan base who do the whole parish out, board out thing. Now, I'm not suggesting that any individual is blameless within our football club. There's blame to be apportioned to Steve Parrish, to Oliver Glasner, to Dougie Friedman, to whoever. You could go back through the annals of history but I always say to these people you know what is it that you actually want because if you look through 15 years we've gone from administration with nine players and a 10-point deduction to over 12 years in the Premier League and winning our first ever major trophy you look at players like yourself and Wilf and Eze and Michael Elisa and Mark Gay and Adam Wharton the club is gradually if you zoom out on an 18 to 24 month basis making tangible steps forward all the time but as Joe was just saying you know the Premier League is a very very difficult place to succeed and most fan bases aren't particularly happy most of the time unless they've got that sort of flush of enthusiasm as a Sunderland or a Leeds would when they're in the Premier League and they're punching above their weight within the first couple of years.

33:30Dan is there any kind of frustration among among the fans about kind of squandering that massive kind of feel-good boost from from May how do you you understand the club have played the last kind of six months? Because it seems from the outside that you could, I would guess that Steve Parrish and the board have things that they would maybe have done differently if they had their time again. Are the fans of that same view? I think obviously that there will be a sizable number who feel that there should have been more money immediately reinvested to the squad following on from Eze's sale. I do think it's a little bit harsh because you look at Jeremy Pino, I appreciate he's relatively lightweight and could probably do with putting on a little bit of muscle in terms of being knocked off the board at Premier League level.

34:15But he has the technical ability. He's a young lad. He's coming from VAL, new league, new culture, new language, everything. He's scoring goals and creating chances. J.D. Canvo is the sort of player that we brought in, similar in really the same way to Mark Gay. You know, you come in, you've got to be able to learn your trade. You can't just expect 19, 20-year-old centre-backs to come in and flourish immediately. and you know that is the palace model i've made this point sort of frequently really the reason that we struggle to hold on to our best players is because they get three or four years into a five-year contract and they won't sign a new deal unless there's a release clause in it so in order to progress we have to sell at the right time and then reinvest it but there's always a gamble with that so yes we probably could and should have spent a little bit more money immediately i mean we've broken our transfer record at the very beginning of january on brennan johnson that isn't a normal thing for Palace to be doing, especially with a manager that, you know, has said in October that he's not going to be renewing a contract.

35:11So I don't really know. I have sympathy for the board for sure. Go on, Andres. I think the problem is that I remember when I left 2021 and I think the remit from the board and Dougie Friedman was let's lower the wage bill. Let's get all the highest earners off the wage bill. Let's get young players in who are not going to be on higher wages. So I think the problem you have with that is you bring in these young players. They obviously have a platform in the Premier League. They do well. And obviously now they're commanding double, triple, quadruple the wages. And Palace obviously can't keep up with those wage demands.

35:46And you get an Eze situation, you get a Mark Gahey situation, whereas Palace just can't offer what these clubs, arsenals, the Man City is looking to offer. And I think that's where they're struggling to get to the next level. Well, you know, I mean, regardless of the money, so in Mark Gay's situation, I'm pretty sure from the first contract he signed at Palace until the day he left, he was on relatively, almost exactly the same money. He might have had some performance-related triggers that boosted it, but he never signed a new deal because he knew that he would have a legitimate chance in a free agent market of getting a major move, which he has.

36:19We had an offer for him, I think, 120 grand a week, and he said no. You know, and that's his prerogative. No one blames him for that. He's a club legend as far as I'm concerned. But we gave Eze a new contract. But you're going to always be in a situation. Eze wanted to go to Arsenal. It's his boyhood club. He played for them as a kid. He wanted to be able to go and try and win a title. So we can't compete with that. We can compete with the progress. And Adam Wharton comes in from Blackburn and we give him the platform to flourish. But if it comes around another two years' time, he's not going to want to sign a new deal unless it has a release clause in it, which automatically puts us on the back foot.

36:55Obviously, we're seeing this play out in the media. We're having this discussion now because we know about what's going on. But how do you understand that it's going on internally? How do you understand that Oliver Glasner is communicating internally with Crystal Palace as a football club, as someone that he's worked with, as someone that, you know, he obviously doesn't want the worst for them, does he? He doesn't want this to all fall to pieces and all their hard work to just go up into thin air. Or is it that fracture that they're just literally taking darts at each other through the media? I believe, I mean, I haven't got 100 % facts on this, obviously.

37:27I believe that the club itself have obviously been making plans for the succession in the summer of 2026 because he told the board in October that he was not going to be signing a new contract. By definition, the club will have sounded out managers. They potentially will have got a manager in place to take over in the summer of 2026. It's actually quite similar to when Roy Hodgson came back the second time because he was supposed to be this long term caretaker, was going to see us through for the entire campaign and then fell into ill health. And we had to accelerate those conversations with Oliver Glasner to the point where from taking over in the summer, he agreed to do it earlier.

38:06Obviously, I don't think anyone could have foreseen a month ago that this would occur, this rapid fall of the House of Cards that has happened. so even though and I said this this morning myself on one hand as a fan I don't want him to be our manager beyond today because I don't think it's something that can be logically sorted out in a cordial fashion but at the same time if the board were to give him his marching orders today the players aren't necessarily going to be against that because they've heard what he said in the press and they'll understand it but at the same time there needs to be a tangible step forward in terms of who comes in.

38:40And if the players say, all right, the gaffer's gone, who's next? Then if they haven't got a name to put forward, they can't really do it. So I believe it's a case of trying to repair it as best as possible in the immediate and try to sort of limp through really for the rest of the campaign, which isn't ideal when you've got a European season to try and navigate either. What do you think was the straw that broke Glasner the other day? Because if he said that he's communicated it in October, which is fine, it's not alien what he's doing if he says he wants to see out his contract and he's willing to do it properly that's not that's not a tough discussion to have obviously I'm sure Palace will have made their offers he decided he was going to go elsewhere absolutely no problem let's all stick together and let's work the best way we can why does it now feel what three months down the line all of a sudden it's he's totally offended and he's losing his head about losing Mark Gahey when I'm sure that would have been the plan anyway he could it's not like he would have pitched in October to say I think you need to keep him I think if he doesn't stay then I'm going he's going anyway so what do you think is it just literally him covering up now because the results are going badly it's not looking great in terms of what he's built and his legacy and who he's being linked with and now he's just starting to fire pot shots because nothing has changed apart from them losing no i mean look i've got to choose my words carefully i don't want to offend anyone who's on the side of oliver glasney here but i personally believe that he is quite childish when it comes to this sort of thing because it's quite often this happens in a pre-match press conference he won't be full of the joys of spring but he sort of he re-energizes himself across the week and then a defeat like Saturday at Sunderland happens and it's almost like he can't compartmentalize the defeat and he sort of lashes out and I would imagine the same sort of repair process will occur over the course of the next few days before we take on Chelsea as you said it's logical that Mark Gay would go if 20 million pounds of an offer comes in when we're out of both domestic cups and haven't taken Europe as seriously as we should, haven't won in 10 games.

40:37I am firmly of the belief that if we'd ended up taking the 1-0 lead at Sunderland and held on to that 1-0 win, he would have kept his counsel and wouldn't have said anything against the board on Saturday evening. It would have been a case of saying, you know, the fans were fantastic, the players were shown well togetherness, I'm so proud of this group, and he wouldn't have had this whole storm in the teacup. I mean, obviously, I can't say that for sure, but he does have form for this. You know, I interact Frankfurt and Wolfsburg, he fell out with both of those clubs' hierarchies, over transfers I think sometimes he allows his emotions to get the better of him which isn't something you'd necessarily assume the Europa League and FA Cup winning manager in his 50s Talking about emotions getting the better of people what are you expecting for the Chelsea game at Selhurst Park on Sunday from the fans like what kind of because I don't know if it was aimed at the players the manager the performance whatever but there were boos at the end of the Sunderland game from the Palace fans what's it going to be like at home?

41:31that I'd be honest with you I'm not quite sure um if obviously it would be very palace andros knows this it would be very palace for us to go and turn them over 1-0 it just is it's just what we do when we went 1-0 up at Sunderland I wasn't shocked even though you know all of the turmoil the day before I will say that Oliver Glasner has potentially misjudged this situation in terms of the optics because I think maybe he thinks that the lion's share of Palace fans are going to be on his side because we've won the FA Cup with him and he feels like he's shining a light on boarding competence or whatever he might say and there will be a portion of our fans that feel that way but if we fall 2-3-0 down against Chelsea it will turn toxic very very quickly and I think the club they're in a difficult position because obviously they don't want to blow up the entire blueprint and try and get a manager in on an interim basis until the summer if they don't have to but we've got after Chelsea we've got Forrest and Brighton away and for recent reasons the Forest away game is going to be quite an emotionally charged one.

42:29Brighton by definition always is for us. If we lose all three of those games, it'll be 13 without a win in all competitions. It can't carry on like that. You know, the pressure will get too much, but I'm open-minded about Sunday. I don't think it's necessarily going to be horrible just for the sake of it, but if we do fall a goal or two down, it could get very toxic very quickly for sure. Dan, are you saying you believe that it could turn toxic toward Oliver Glasner rather than the board, the hierarchy. Yeah, I say that largely because of the substitutes comment. One of my main grabs with Oliver Glasner this season has been his reluctance to use the bench in any scenario.

43:09You know, you've got players, Romain Eze came in from Millwall. He is very palace. He takes players on. He looks to beat a man. I'm not suggesting he's Premier League ready and, you know, finished article. He hasn't given him the opportunity, really. You know, Cristian Sissouche came in from Getafe on a loan with an option to buy. He hasn't given him the option to, well, he has given him sporadic minutes, but nothing like a proper run in the team. So if you are a goal or two down and you're looking at the bench and he's not making changes to try and roll the dice at all, then I feel like the fans will think, because you've got a situation where two days ago he said, I looked at the bench and there was no one to bring on.

43:46I mean, I'm not a professional footballer, but if I was amongst that number, I wouldn't want to play for that man. so you look at it and Danny Imre came back from Blackpool he was on loan there he's a right wing back we are in a situation without Daniel Munoz at the moment where we do not have a natural right wing back Nathaniel Klein is a right back but he can't really get forward Justin Deveni's plan there is a centre mid so even if it's like a slightly square peg in a round hole it's still a better option than what Justin Deveni's doing but he won't even entertain that idea so I believe If we are losing by one or two goals and changes don't come from the bench, even if they are rolls of the dice, it will turn toxic in that sense.

44:24This is the Monday Night Club. On the Football Daily Podcast. We are going to talk about the Africa Cup of Nations. Androz Townsend, Joe Hart and Rory Smith are all still with us. Senegal beat Morocco in Sunday's final, but the result has been overshadowed by what happened during the game. Morocco were awarded a penalty in injury time. The game was still nil-nil at that point, but the Senegal head coach, Pap Gheu, was so incensed by the decision that he ushered his team off the pitch after a very lengthy pause. Sadio Mane actually stayed on, tried to encourage his teammates to return to finish the game.

45:01And then after a 17-minute delay, the game did restart, but Brahim Diaz attempted Penenka penalty, was very easily saved by Edward Mendy. Pap Gay then went on to score the winning goal for Senegal in the fourth minute of extra time. Journalist Mahir Mahzahi was at the game last night. Mahir, what? I mean, I don't even know where to start with this one, but let's start with all the drama. And just what was the final few moments before the full-time whistle went for what should have been 90, but in the end was 170, 107 minutes? Yeah, so I think if you want to start with the drama, you can't start just at the 90th minute of yesterday's match.

45:45I think you have to start over the last two to three weeks. There have been a consistent chain of very poor officiating performances back to back to back to back, which has opened up a space for conspiracy theories to fester. People claim the host nation, Morocco, is getting favorable refereeing, but not just them. Senegal also had accusations thrown their way. I personally place CAF to blame here because they got rid of their head of officiating, Numen Diaz-Doué, who's actually Desiree Doué's uncle, an Ivorian referee. After the WAFCON last summer, he's the head of refereeing. He's the one that's in charge of selecting which referee is going to which match.

46:23They got rid of him because Morocco, they were unjustly, I think, officiated in the final against Nigeria. Some very poor decisions. So they fired him. They never replaced him. And as a result, there's a vacuum that opens up. And this time around, we had MAs. When it comes to the quarterfinals, the semifinals, we had FAs say, we don't want this referee. We want another referee. And CAF had to propose several times often before finding the correct referee. And so before the referee even steps onto the pitch, they know that there's an undue amount of pressure on them. And so keeping all of that in mind, we get to the 90th minute.

46:58And Sonny Gal have a goal disallowed that I think most people believe should have been a valid goal. Two minutes later, Morocco win a penalty. Brahim Diaz is tucked down to the floor by the West Ham left back Malik Jouf. And many people see it, again, as a soft penalty. I think it was probably a correct penalty. But just the succession of events placed against the context of what I had just explained is, I think, what set Senegalese fans and players off. Yeah, in the context of all of that, it makes sense that there was such a strong reaction from Senegal in terms of the coach collecting up all his players, bar Sadio Mane really, and marching them off the pitch at the end of all the kind of discussions that were happening on the pitch.

47:43Yeah, he said it was a team decision. And everybody, as you mentioned, walked off except for Sadio Mane and maybe just two or three other players. I think Ismail Lassar was still there. I believe Edward Mendy as well, the goalkeeper. I was convinced that they were going to forfeit the match. The Senegalese fans, they were intensely fighting, throwing fists, throwing chairs, throwing whatever they could at the security court and trying to get onto the pitch. I was certain that they would call off this match. It didn't end up happening. After 12 minutes passed, Sadio Mane has a head-to-head with Claude Leroy.

48:14It was a surreal scene. He's a legendary coach in African football. He won the AFCON with Cameroon in 1988. He asked him, what should we do? And Claude Lerwas says, I think you should play and see what happens. And Sadio Mane calls out his team again, saying, we're going to play like men, tapping his chest like this. They don't come out. He runs into the dressing room, drags them all out. And then Brahim Diaz decides to take that Panenka and Edouard Mendy calmly collects it. I mean, my mind is absolutely fried. I still am not able to process exactly what happened. There's a lot to pick out of this.

48:45and I know Rory wants to come in, but we should say that CAF have released a statement where they strongly condemn any inappropriate behaviour which occurs during matches, especially those targeting the refereeing team or match organisers. They're reviewing all the footage and they'll refer the matter to competent bodies for appropriate action to be taken against those found guilty. Yeah, I mean, Mahers summed it up brilliantly. I think Senegal had various complaints around that even their arrival in Rabat, they felt that the security wasn't right. They had an issue with the hotel they were placed in.

49:15I think they changed their training base. Basically, the inference seems to be they thought they'd be spied on if they stayed where they'd been initially kind of sequestered. There is a total lack of trust. There has been a suspicion, I think, particularly on Morocco, getting favourable decisions. Not kind of outright corruption or anything, but just maybe that things were being kind of set up to be favourable to the hosts. And that's a fairly normal suspicion in football, I think. But it obviously reaches that kind of crescendo in that five-minute spell. you have Jonathan Wilson in the Guardian made the point that you have things got so bad that El Hajduf, the Liverpool and Bolton legend, in inverted commas, had to act as a peacemaker, which shows you how bad things really got.

49:58And there will obviously be consequences for Senegal. I think Morocco said that they're, I don't know, suing or taking legal action of some sort against CAF and FIFA. I'm not quite sure what that looks like. But I wanted to ask my head just on the penalty, the reaction from everybody involved to Diaz missing that penalty was really weird. If you watch it again, Mendy sort of points to the sky to thank God, which is a relatively normal thing, and the ball is still in play. So he's like, he's trying to start again. Nobody else responds at all. This is what confused me in the press box. Takes the Panenka, it's saved.

50:35Of all the Moroccans that I could see, only one reacted. Nail El-Ele-Nawi, he put his hands on his head. everybody else was just like they got on with the game not as if they were you know a minute away from lifting their second ever afcon trophy the first one in 50 years same thing with the senegalese players there was no real reaction and so we almost thought because of the lackluster or lackadaisical nature of the kick and the lack of reaction we almost thought they perhaps you know what came to some kind of an agreement for fair play or whatever the case may be it was confirmed very quickly after that that was not the case, that that Brahim Diaz just decided to kick that penalty that way.

51:15And I can tell you from speaking to people that people even in his own camp are furious. You've got to have big nerves. Yeah, you've got to have very, very big nerves. Last minute to do that for your nation to win the AFCON. But you have to score. If you do that, you have the confidence that you have to score it. Yeah, it's a moment he will never, ever forget. I don't think his nation will ever forget. I don't think he'll ever be forgiven for that. I wonder whether the delay in taking the penalty played a role in him, missing the penalty, in him deciding to do the Penenka. I don't know. I'm sure we'll hear about it in the days and weeks to come.

51:56But yes, it was an extraordinary moment. And myself as well, I was obsessed. I was hooked with the outcome of the result. I was really excited to see who was going to take it because obviously we're going to lose you soon. but I want to talk about the fact that the penalty spot nearly had to be replaced. That was getting farmed for about 15 minutes. Anyone who was on the pitch. And, you know, there was Moroccan security who played at 90 minutes protecting it. Very, very late on. You know, it's normal now to hold on to the ball, the person who's not taking it, because usually there's a VIR check or people are just walking off the field, one or the other.

52:30And then just handed in the ball last minute. The cinema, the drama was there. And do you know what? If it had come off, it would have been beautiful. but can I just get one question in what was going on with the goalkeeper's towels why was there a Royal Rumble to stop the goalkeeper from having a towel we're going to speak very openly about this this started actually in the semi-famals against Nigeria where ball boys came on and confiscated Stanley Noabali the Nigerian goalkeeper's towel and then today or yesterday last night it was same thing but with Yassin Bounou's excuse me Edward Mendy's towel it comes down to black magic it sounds like a ridiculous thing to say superstition but stalin or bali brought a towel from the sideline next to his next to his pitch next to the his goal and he put it into the net and the fans are the ones that started screaming at the ball boys saying like hey remove this remove this remove this and the ball boys are the ones that then went on and removed the towel and then it was just a matter of fighting and fight and i really don't think that edward mendey had anything in his towel i think it probably was just mind games in the end but it ends up looking really really poor in African football it looks like the lack of organization the lack of security I think was uh disgraceful I think I think as well it wasn't just the ball boy I think I've seen a clip where the security guard I think Hakimi threw a towel at one stage it was everyone in on the act and it's interesting so you're saying that there was accusations of especially in the Nigeria case there was black magic and they were putting it inside the goal to sort of keep the ball out no well no one will ever outwardly accuse anybody of anything like that they'll see somebody bringing on a foreign object onto the pitch whether it's a towel or something because the way he especially standing about they had balled up the towel uh the fans in particular thought it was suspicious so you saw the video of hakimi for example taking the towel and throwing it into the stands i've seen i saw that whole episode play out it was the the fans behind the goal the the part of the rosso verde fan group which are the the hardcore moroccan national team fans yelling at hakimi repeatedly hey grab the towel grab the towel in Arabic and he doesn't really understand Arabic that well and he's like put this this this no the towel the towel and he finally goes there and he just throws it himself so it was the fans that were the superstitious ones and eventually just comes into this game of tug of war.

54:41There's sort of a broader point really about the the tournament that I want to ask you because I've read lots of um lots of reports lots of people giving their their opinions today about the maybe not the potential that it does to the image of African football that it but that it plays into perhaps an idea of African football that people have. And people who love and feel strongly about African football are saying, this was the tournament. This was the tournament where we had great facilities. The organisation was meant to be fantastic. There were some brilliant games in there. And now it will be remembered for what happened at the end of the final.

55:20We, I think I can say, all absolutely loved the final and I've enjoyed the tournament. But I just wonder what your thoughts on that are. Can I be brutally honest? There's a younger generation of African journalists, football fan supporters. I'm not trying to be rude here. The idea of what does this project to the outside world, we don't care. We're at a certain point where we know the African Cup of Nations. We're very secure with our tournament. We know it's one of the best tournaments in the world. We know how entertaining it is. We're not too fussed about what are other people going to say about this for me the most problematic part of last night the most disturbing part to me was seeing the actual physical violence between the senegalese supporters and sometimes young kids volunteers that's never going to be acceptable it's something that i'll for for sure never stop like talking about but i'm not too fussed i'm sorry like all due respect i respect all of you guys as professionals rory i think very highly of your journalism uh joe and andrew simon hell of careers kelly you're an amazing presenter i'm not too too fussed about if you guys think this makes African football look amateurish.

56:25I think we have to retain a lot of what makes us unique. That doesn't mean that we have to be, I hate this word, but like primitive in air quotes or whatever the case may be. But I'm just not too fussed about it. And I think even trying to speak openly about things like superstition or black magic, same thing. Like this is the reality of the continent. I'm not going to try to hide it from you guys. For me, superstition was described to me by a good friend from Nigeria, Salas Choku, as the football is an arbitrary game. superstition is sort of the way that we can explain the arbitrary there's so many little details make the difference and whether it's religion and then or black magic or whatever the case may be it's certain ways to try and control an outcome of a match it's maybe very foreign maybe very bizarre to so many listeners of this program but it's part of who we are and i think we're just this new generation of whether it's journalists or players are just learning to accept it yeah there's but i think the big thing as man says is is the logistical side of it that's where the lack of security, the failure to kind of, what looks like from the outside, the failure to guarantee the safety of people and the fans.

57:29It's the same as in the, there are too many Copper Americas for me to know which one it was, but the one they had in the US where outside the stadium for the final, there was a massive crush because, and it's something that might be relevant in 2026 for the World Cup, that Americans think, well, you know, it's a sporting event. Everyone will drive. You'll take a barbecue in your car. You'll be there for four hours before the game. It hadn't seemed to occur to the Americans that 25 ,000 Colombians might turn up and immediately just try and go into the stadium. They weren't really ready for that.

57:56And I think that's where CAF never normally wanted to avoid a chance to criticise FIFA. I don't know how it's their fault. I presume it's in some way they're involved. But certainly CAF, I think you have to look at, and Morocco as well as an organising country. I think the fact, to me actually, the bigger thing is the lack of trust that Senegal must have had in the legitimacy of refereeing decisions is nothing to do with the fact it's in Africa, or that they're African players, or there's a competition taking place in Morocco. I think it's an issue that exists in the world much more broadly that we no longer trust institutions.

58:33And I think it is increasingly important in football. There's a very good chance you'll go to a Premier League game this coming weekend, and you will hear a chant that involves a word I can't say on the radio and the Premier League being corrupt. and as much as I'm not sure anyone's thought about that hugely it's not great if fans and players don't believe that what they're experiencing is real if the Senegalese players genuinely thought strongly enough we think this might be fixed which is what they must have thought to go off the pitch that's really bad that's bad for football on any continent doesn't matter if it's in Africa and they're the two things that are worrying it's the fact that once again we've seen a major final where it looks like maybe people's safety isn't guaranteed and there is a failure of trust and belief.

59:17It's not to do with the fact it's AFCON. It's to do with those two things, I think. Look, there's so much, as we said right at the beginning, that we could talk about from that final and from the tournament. But I think time has got the better of us now. So, Mahir, we're going to have to say thank you very much for joining us and good night. Thank you, Mahir. Thank you guys for having me on. Take care. That is it for Monday Night Club this week. Thank you very much to Joe, to Rory, to Andros. If you missed any of the show, you can watch it back on iPlayer and the BBC Sport YouTube channel.

59:52Five Live Sports. Go to the end zone, touchdown. NFL. Touchdown, Philadelphia. Great play design. I think you just have to go out there and be the best that you can be. We're going to go out there and lay it on the line. A 12-yard touchdown run. 105 yards on the return. Where speed, power and skill collide. And the Eagles have beaten the Chiefs convincingly in Super Bowl 59. Five lives for NFL. Listen on BBC Sounds.