PL Review: Manchester City win controversial derby

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1:04Rick Edwards:Thanks again to our sponsor Vital Proteins. Learn more about collagen peptides by going to vitalproteins.com. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. On the Football Daily Podcast, Premier League Review with Rick Edwards. Hello and welcome to the Premier League Review. Plenty to get into, as always. Joining me to break down the biggest talking points from the latest round of games, the Telegraph's Northern football writer, the unthinking man's Henry Winter. It's Luke Edwards and former Premier League striker Charlie Austin.

1:42Hello both, how are we? All good, mate, all good. I want to get straight into it. You're all right, though, Luke?

1:48Rick Edwards:I was going to say I was all right, but then you started talking, so I didn't know what to do, and then it was really awkward, and now we've made it even more awkward. No, I'm all right, thanks. I'm a bit sad. I'm so glad that we cleared that up. No, I want to clarify something, because I was supposed to do the Great North Run today and couldn't tutor my foot injury. Bore off about your foot, mate. We get it. You've hurt your foot. No one cares. Are you still on them crutches, Luke, or not? No, I'm off the crutches, mate. Progress. Are you in one of those stupid boots? Yes. Well, that suits you, at least.

2:22Let's talk about the Manchester Derby, please. Much like I'd like to dwell on your foot. It's quite an odd game. So 1-0 by Manchester City, 10-man Manchester City at Old Trafford. But I think some bizarre refereeing decisions, two main ones, which were both, well, yes, both critical. So let's start, first of all, with the winner. So it was originally disallowed for offside, and then that was overturned by VAR. and the Premier League match centre have said VAR deemed that while in an offside position Fernandes didn't play the ball so Enzo Fernandes launches himself to try and head the ball in and narrowly doesn't make contact and then Harlan tucks it in at the back post and Dale Johnson who's our football issues guy at the BBC said he would have to have been a judge to be impacting an opponent to be offside.

3:26And I'm looking at that, and for the life of me, how is he not affecting Lissandro Martez, who's trying to defend that? Like, he's so clearly going for the ball and so clearly nearly gets the ball. He just, he is interfering. He is impacting an opponent. I just, I don't know. Am I going mad, Charlie? No, mate, you're not going mad because he's flung his whole body at it to try and score a diving header. He impacts Martinez, hence why he tries to come close. The bullet points that you've read and that come up and we see on the TV, Enzo Fernandez is in ticks three out of the four bullet points. So I don't really understand how it's not given as offside.

4:10It actually doesn't make sense. And this is the problem everybody has. There's no consistency. However, you can guarantee in two days' time, the referees association is going to come out and apologise to Manchester United and say we got it wrong. I just don't... So, Luke, I think Charlie's probably right. I think we probably have got an apology in the post from whatever the referee's body is called these days. I don't quite get how VAR can look at that. And we're all looking at the same stuff. Because it just seems so obvious that he's impacting an opponent, which is the phrase that they're interested in.

4:54I don't... Yeah, I just... It just baffles me.

4:58Rick Edwards:There's a word that's coming to me, and that word is incompetence. That's... It's... I think they got so hung up on whether Haaland was offside because that was slightly weird, wasn't it? I mean, yes, absolutely it was. Because Haaland looks offside. Well, to the naked eye, you're just like, oh, no, he's off. He's off. Yeah, he's offside. I think he thought he was offside with the goal celebration. I think he thought he was. So it's like, it is human fallibility. And we talk about this all the time, about the technology is there. But if you have, humans are capable of making really bad decisions.

5:31Rick Edwards:I think they got so hung up on whether Haaland was offside. They then drew the line and Dawg, his foot's playing him onside, that they kind of lost everything else. And I totally agree with Charlie and yourself for once, Rick. He's clearly impacting play. He's gone for the ball. He's so clearly offside. Martinez would have cleared the ball if Fernandes wasn't in front of him. Right. So he has to anticipate, is Fernandes going to get a touch? Martinez then is drawn to Fernandes because he has to try and get the ball from him. So it impacts the play in every facet. They even zoomed in on Fernandes to see whether he'd handled the ball or whether he touched it with his head, but then decided, presumably, because he'd not touched it, that the goal was going to stand.

6:16Rick Edwards:Now, I don't know whether, talking about the human condition and fallibility, did the fact that VAR, and we're going to talk about this decision in a minute in more depth, but is the fact that VAR felt it might have made a mistake with the Fernandes-Foden incident in which they didn't spot Fernandes booting Foden in the back and took no action, even though he's still a race? I don't know, but I think they got so sidetracked by whether Haaland was offside. It took forever. It's one of those weird goals, Rick, where nobody seemed to know what was happening. I was watching it on television. Nobody seemed to know what was happening.

6:51Rick Edwards:Nobody knew why the goal was standing. Nobody knew why the goal wasn't standing. So it was a complete and utter mess. And there will be an apology to Manchester United. That is sure as day follows night, that is going to happen because it was the wrong decision. I think they've already admitted privately it was wrong. So, yeah, it's just a complete and utter mess. You'd be fewer if you're Manchester United 4-1. But what I will add is that's not why you lost the derby, or certainly that's not why you didn't win the derby. Yeah, can we just... I get that, chaps, and totally, and we'll come on to the red card and that side of it and the goal.

7:22But I don't think we can allow VAR... We're going to because it's a big point. But I don't think we should allow VAR and them moments to overshadow. Man United was poor this afternoon. Yes, Charlie. Yes. Yeah. They was poor. And I said to you guys, I put it in the group. 70-odd minutes that they played against 10 men. Yeah, but I put it in the group to you two. And I asked the question, they don't play with a number nine. They've got 10 v 11. They don't have a number nine. Kunia is not a nine. He is a 10 or he plays wide. He's never occupying the two centre-halves or he drops in. There's no danger going forward for me for Manchester United.

8:04Regardless of character likes. Down the middle. There is on the wings, to be fair. Yes, down the middle, Rick. But down the middle, if you don't like Sesko, well, you're going to have to suck it up and play him. And then out of the three, it's either Mbremo, Cunha or Rashford. Pick up the two wide places. Because I don't think you can play all three because neither of them are number nines. Is it just then, Luke, that Carrick doesn't fancy Sesko?

8:29Rick Edwards:Well, I think there's a body of evidence building up that he doesn't fancy him from the start. I mean, he says very nice things about him whenever he talks about him publicly, but that's a typical manager's trick that a player is not in the team or you want to sell. I'm not saying they want to sell Sesco, by the way, but it's an old trick that you talk them up publicly. You say how good they are and how brilliant they are and how much you rate them. I'm sure Charlie's come across that in his career countless times, but it's very odd. But they had one shot on target until midway through the second half after Foden's sending off.

9:00Rick Edwards:And then there's the Wimblemo chance really late on. They were playing against 10 men, City's control of that game with 10 men should embarrass Manchester United, quite frankly, because they weren't hurting them. And they were also being passed through as well. And like the gamesmanship and wasting the time. And that turns, you know, it's Manchester United were quite good first half. OK, they had chances in the first. I thought that period before Foden got sent off, I thought Manchester United were good. But they lost their way again. They ran out of ideas. They ran out of steam. and to play for that long against 10 men and then lose the game at home to a bit of rivals that is a that is a kick in the shins for Michael Carrick it's probably more than a kick in the shins for Michael Carrick that is that is going to cause people to really start to question the direction of travel there he has said their start has been okay I think those are the words he used last weekend we're doing okay we've done okay well that result I think changes that I think that's a perception shifter I really do let's talk about the sending off then so after 23 minutes it's Foden gets sent off for kicking out at Bruno Fernandes while he's on the floor.

10:08What the referee does not see, well, I guess he sees the initial foul from Bruno, but then doesn't see Bruno then kick Foden, I mean, twice maybe? Once right up the jacksie. Certainly once. Certainly once in the jacksie. And that is why Foden reacts. And, you know, to my mind, yeah, it's really silly from Foden. And if you do that, you are really running the risk of getting sent off. And I don't think he could have any complaints particularly. But the fact that Bruno fouls him, boots him and gets him sent off and escapes without any sort of punishment is just bizarre to me.

10:53Rick Edwards:Perfect crime, some would call it. What did you think, Charlie? Well, is that not a clear and obvious error by the referee, first and foremost that he missed that he missed the kick the kick so say he misses the kick VAR can see it and that's a clear and obvious error I'm not saying a red card by the way I'm just saying that the referee could have given him a yellow I'm just saying is that what the technology is there for but that's why it's so clever from Fernandes people would use another word to describe Fernandes as Rick did I don't think I'm telling tales don't think I'm telling tales but Rick used a different word to describe Bruno Fernandes' behaviour over that incident that's why it's clever Charlie isn't it like you know there are old pro tricks do you know what I mean absolutely he's done him Foden mentally and physically and drew the reaction that is what's happened there isn't it he's got away with it Bruno has played the game and he's done it perfectly right do you know as an ex-player looking on do you know what disappointed me chaps the reaction the reaction from other players now I know it's what it is it's a derby you do whatever to try and get an advantage but I just didn't like the reaction of the Man United players running towards him running towards the ref trying to because they may have seen it it was just for me that didn't sit well I did think that Umbermo chance right at the very end it's such a good first touch and it is a it's a Fernandes ball into him isn't it and I know it's on his weaker foot but I feel like he maybe should have done better and I really enjoyed Michael Carrick's sort of home alone face reaction, I don't know if you saw that both hands to cheeks it's perfect but he knows that's pressure for him this is the thing with management isn't it, you're stood there on the sidelines, he will know deep down like we're saying about whether this has been a good start or a bad start, he will know that that result is going to shift the ground underneath him because that's what Derby defeats do and the manner of it makes it even worse so he's got a very very expensive footballer, a very very talented footballer, one on one with the goalkeeper in the last minute of injury time to rescue a point and it's a good save but it's a good save but it didn't look amazing.

13:15Rick Edwards:It's another one of those saves that I'm definitely making I'm afraid. It is though isn't it? But it's at the right height, it's at the right height to save I mean, it's not got great placement and it's at that height that a goalkeeper can push it away. So it's a big, big miss. And those moments in football matches and in the story of a season, in the story of a managerial career, they're huge. And that was a big miss from him by most certainly in the context of the match. Massive for Enzo Maresca, though. Like a really, really big, big win to cement what is a very good start to his career as City manager, Charlie.

13:54Yeah, and even his reaction after the game, the way he ran to the fans. The camera didn't pan so you couldn't actually see if he acknowledged Michael Carrick. But I think to him that meant so much. They've just beat the neighbours. Like you said, Derby game, they've won 1-0. They've been unbeaten start, four wins. Yes, they brought players in. But do you know what? The pressure's still on. And when he was at Man City previously, he was coach to Pep. So there was no pressure to him from the outside world. It was just he was backing Pep up. Now he's the man in charge. He's the face. He's the person that has to answer the questions.

14:35And do you know what? He'll be delighted with the start he's gone. And it actually couldn't have gone any better. Let's be honest. Four out of four. They win in the Champions League. And also, they've just beat their neighbours. This is completely bizarre. But you'd probably say that City are like the plucky underdogs in the title race. That's pushing it. Because Arsenal look so strong. That's pushing it. You know what I mean, though? No. No, you're not having that. No, I'm not having plucky underdogs.

15:06Rick Edwards:there's nothing plucky underdoggy about Manchester City I know but you do know what I mean Arsenal are so strong and they look so dominant and obviously they won the title last year they're the reigning chairman I do know what you mean when we've got a good two horse race I think it's going to be a good battle between them and I just cannot I cannot put Manchester City and underdogs in the same sentence I'm sorry I just can't have it sorry Rick let's talk about Arsenal then from last night Saturday night 2-0 winners at Sunderland. And the absolutely pivotal moment here was David Raya's penalty save in the second half.

15:44And let me tell you, I'm not saving that. It is water. You feel for Enzo Le Fay because you're like, that's a really good penalty. It's going right in the side netting. You've hit it well. And somehow, David Raya has tipped it onto the post. I don't know if you were watching, but I was watching it live, and I thought, oh, he's just hit the post, because I couldn't quite believe that Raya would be able to get there. It's a superb save, Charlie. Yeah, no, it's an unbelievable save, right? But, Rick, from experience, for a player that's missed penalties, it doesn't matter if you've hit poor ones or good ones.

16:24The keeper's done his job, and obviously he's saved it. He's made an unbelievable save. I think now it's come to the point of where he is and where he's at. We cast our minds back to when Arsenal took him. Everybody was questioning, really? Arsenal goalie, David Rea? And the person he is now from the start of his Arsenal career, he is so pivotal to that team. So pivotal. And I think that just shows the strength and depth they have. The goalkeeper, ultimately, let's be honest, if the penalty goes in, that's a completely different game last night. Yeah. A completely different game. Then the goal to put Arsenal ahead is a lovely strike from Gimmarais.

17:05And obviously his reaction as a former Newcastle captain to the Sunderland fans was world class. And I'm a complete sucker for that sort of needle. And it's a funny needle, isn't it? Because it's not like Gimmarais is popular with Newcastle fans.

17:26Rick Edwards:No, I mean, I think he was taunted for, I think I can, an overweight rat, I think he was called. He said this on his Instagram post. I think he said it himself, didn't he? Yeah, he said, they know what they are. The fat rat wishes you a nice weekend. I mean, which is just, I mean, if you're going to give it, we've all been there as football supporters. You're in a stadium, you're goading somebody. Yeah. And then, you know, they ram your abuse back down your throat as well. I mean he did that in some of the most spectacular fashion I've ever seen because he's not adverse to a multifaceted goal celebration so first of all the goal is brilliant I think it comes 125 seconds after the Raya save so Raya goes off to celebrate with Mikel Arteta because you know that's the pivotal moment and Charlie's right if Sunderland scored there as well as Sunderland were playing I think it's a very good game yeah Sunderland were good yeah really good but the finish I mean it's incredible I mean it's like top corner and then he runs off and it's just like to have that the level of pettiness.

18:26Rick Edwards:I don't know if pettiness is the right word, but he just runs around and calls them small. Runs past the entire away fans calling them small. With a massive grin on his face. And then goes into the Cup Tears celebration. It's a two-parter. And then the Arsenal fans let him stand there celebrating on his own. Even when they get to him they all just stand there pointing at him. And imagine being a Sunderland supporter. the rage the absolute fury that man has just provoked and that goal celebration so he's not popular with Newcastle supporters I think he'll get a bit of a rough reception actually when he comes back to Newcastle in November but I think he reminded everyone of a black and white persuasion in the North East he's quite a special player and actually that was from the Newcastle perspective very very funny and I think Southern Sports you'd have to take it on the chin to be honest yeah it's all part and parcel it's all part of the fun really You must have done some wind-up celebrations in the past, Charlie.

19:24Absolutely. Do you know when you come back to, Luke, when you say, if you give it, you've got to take it? We've all been there as people that's watching the games and we've said certain things and all of a sudden it comes back to bite you on the backside, right? It happens. I'm all for, listen, I was centre-forward and you kind of feed off it. When they're getting after you, you kind of feed off it because you just think, I only need one chance and then I'm giving it to you. And I think that just comes with it and you kind of, you hope the chance comes, you can put the ball back in there And like I said, a couple of times I used to do it.

19:51Not even a couple of times. I was quite...

19:53Rick Edwards:Did it quite a lot, didn't you, Charlie? Admit it. Come on, you enjoyed goading supporters. Come on. Majority of the times, Luke, yeah. Absolutely. And we talk about pettiness, right? So this is where we're going with this one, chaps. So when I was at QPR and we beat Derby 1-0 in the playoff final, a few Derby players was upset. With you or just the team? No, they lost. They didn't get promoted to the Premier League. Yeah, I think they're well within their rights to be upset. Yes, absolutely, Rick. Absolutely. Fast forward to, I think it was 21-22 season or 22-23, whatever it was, QPR versus Derby.

20:33I crossed the ball in for Ilias Chair to score at the back post and turned around towards the Derby fans and was doing the dry your eyes celebration. And I didn't even score. That's how much you like the go, Charlie. Yeah, so we can go, we can talk about pettiness, but I think I went to the extreme. Remember when we spoke about, and you would have seen it, I failed the medical at Hull because of my knee. I did a year in the championship when we got promoted and then I scored a header against Hull at a way and was doing the limp.

21:04Rick Edwards:Doing the limp and holding my knee. That's almost better than the dry. I think that's better than the dry the eyes. That's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a nice sort of, it's very personalised, that one. Yeah. Arteta, you know, he's always sort of moaning about something, isn't he? He was very upset about the penalty. He said they decided to be really physical and very direct. And he says that kind of stuff with no sense of irony. And we had to overcome a situation that, in my opinion, was absolutely unacceptable at this level. I'm very worried and very sad because this can never be a penalty ever.

21:35I suspect there's not going to be a huge amount of sympathy for Arteta on this.

21:41I've got none. I just sort of, you look back at the replay and went, well, yeah, it's not. If it doesn't get given, I'm not sort of shying at the TV when it is given. I'm not really shying at the TV. It's just one of those, really.

21:57Rick Edwards:It's just one of his unacceptable disgrace rants, isn't it? And it's why opposition supporters find him very, very irritating and borderline intolerable. You know, the fact, it's just the language he uses. it's a it's a probably a 50 50 call i've some seen it's a judo throw but arsenal have got away with grappling exactly that's the thing just just shut up about it also you've won and it's a penalty was saved that you don't need to say anything about it yes save the rants like save the histrionics and yeah i agree that and that irritated me as well because he said they they we have praised them through gritted teeth some people but they are the masters of the dark arts It was a big part of their success under him.

22:41Rick Edwards:And then he bleats and moans like that. And he got books for wandering out of his technical area at Sunderland. And that's about time that happened as well. And then he was sarcastically turning around to the fourth official saying, tick in your box, tick in your box, write it in your report. He wanders up and down the touchline like the rules don't apply to him and has done it for years and years and years. He finally gets, quite rightly, a yellow card for it. And he whinges and moans about that. So Arsenal were brilliant. they prove that they can be street fighters as well. I mean, I was really full of admiration for them.

23:12I asked Luke and Clinton last week when Arsenal were first dropped points. And this week, I think I'm asking, when are Spurs going to score their first goal? What do you reckon, Luke?

23:26Rick Edwards:I'm going to go... I think the way Villa are, they've got Aston Villa up next, haven't they? Yeah. I'm going to go... I'm going to say, I'm going to predict they're going to score a goal against Aston Villa, but still lose. That stinks, right? That stinks of a bore, nil-nil. Honestly. When are they scoring first? When are they scoring their first goal then, Charlie? Honestly, mate, I really don't know because I look through their team and you go, do you know what? When they score their first goal, it'll probably be an own goal. But when you look through their team, tell me anybody that has attacking prowess in the 18-yard box.