Premier League CEO on FIFA Crisis, City's charges & World Cup expansion

0:00Dan Roan:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Pop quiz. What's in your kid's lunchbox? At Whole Foods Market, they've already done the studying. Over 300 food ingredients are banned from their shelves. No hydrogenated fats in the peanut butter and no high fructose corn syrup in the cookies. And for sandwiches, there are no synthetic nitrates or nitrites in any of their deli meat. So you can pack lunchboxes with peace of mind. Get back to school ready at Whole Foods Market. This is the Football Daily Podcast on BBC Sounds. Hello, I'm Dan Rowan and welcome to the Football Daily. On this episode, I'll be speaking to the Premier League Chief Executive, Richard Masters, about the fallout from FIFA President Gianni Infantino's bid to sell off a stake in the World Cup to private investors.

0:55Dan Roan:Manchester City's 1-1-5 case, Chelsea's fine for financial rule breaches and a new era for the league with nine new coaches in charge of clubs as we head into the new season.

1:13Dan Roan:Richard, good to see you. Thanks for your time. We're here in Olympia in London at the Premier League studio's new base. How significant a development is this facility? and why? It's a fantastic new development and it's a big thing for the Premier League. We've brought in-house all of our international media production in this new facility. It's about the size of a football pitch. We've got 29 edit suites and three major studios. So it puts us more in control of our presentation in the Premier League around the world. As you know, we've got some fantastic broadcast partners around the world. We need to provide a world-class media production service to them and this is our next step in doing that.

1:51and obviously it helps give us optionality into the future when we're looking for future growth.

1:56Dan Roan:I'll return to broadcasting, if I may, in a moment and media. Here we are again on the eve of a new season. I think there's been nine managerial changes in the summer, I think the most ever. First time in a decade there's been no Pep Guardiola, of course, at Manchester City. Does it feel like a bit of a new era about to begin? I think it does. I mean, it always feels a bit different post-World Cup and I'm sure we'll come on to that as well. But with all those changes, you say, with the changing of the guard with Pep leaving, it does feel very different and very hard to predict. As you know, we don't mind what happens in the Premier League as long as it's competitive and unpredictable.

2:32And I think we're going to get that this season.

2:35Dan Roan:Premier League clubs have spent more than£2bn this summer, still a huge amount of money. Arsenal, however, were unsuccessful in their pursuit of Vinicius. We've had Mo Salah leave, looks like Rodri might be leaving Manchester City to go to Spain, following in the footsteps of Anthony Gordon for example. Do you sit here today confident that this is still the biggest league in the world? Well if you look at the top 100 players in the world independently ranked, the Premier League has nearly half of them and English players amongst them there, there's 13 of those and 11 of them playing in the Premier League.

3:08So I'm absolutely sure we've got world class talent to be put out on the pitch. Of course, stars come and go. And the Premier League hasn't really always been about stars. It's been about clubs. It's been about squads. It's been about success. And of course, heroes come and go. And I think, a bit like the managers, we are seeing a bit of a change of the guard in that regard as well. But I'm absolutely confident that what people are going to see is a fantastic competition. If you look at England's biggest players, Kane, Bellingham,

3:35Dan Roan:both playing abroad, as I say, Gordon's gone. Jed Spence is leaving to go to Italy as well. as you mentioned the coaches no Guardiola this year, Klopp had already left of course do you think it needs a bit more stardust the league, would you like to see that? Stardust emerges and I'm absolutely sure it will over the next few seasons so again all I can point out is this league continues to confound, last year we had nine clubs in Europe, we had four different winners silverware, we had three clubs in European finals two of them ending up victorious We had Sunderland coming up, staying up and getting into Europe.

4:12We had Bournemouth getting into Europe for the first time. So I think we're going to see hopefully more of that. And that's the excitement that fans want. Of course they want homegrown stars and stars coming around the world. And as you said, our clubs have invested nearly£2 billion already this transfer window. And so the owners are getting behind their clubs and investing in new heroes.

4:34Dan Roan:Since the end of the World Cup, as you know, we've had this remarkable civil war, really, in world football, with the FIFA crisis over Gianni Infantino's plan to sell off stakes in the World Cup and other competitions to private investors, a plan that's now obviously been abandoned. The FA has withdrawn its support for the FIFA president. The Prime Minister has said he should go. UEFA want him to step down. What do you think about Gianni Infantino? Well, we fully support the FA and the position they have come to with Gianni. I think we should be actually talking about the World Cup and looking back on it.

5:09The World Cup itself had enough controversy, but we're not. We're talking about the events of after the World Cup. And as you said, I don't think the FIFA should be ever contemplating selling off a stake in the World Cup. They're a not-for-profit organisation. They should really be holding that competition in trust for the future of football. So I think it's a bad idea and the FA have taken the right position with Garza Gianni.

5:35Dan Roan:If he were to step down or even if he has an election next year as he wants, who would you like to see replace him? And even if you don't have a name, how important is it that a unifying candidate is found? We've got a situation at the moment where three of the Confederations are sort of lined up if you like, were drawing their support for Jani and the other three they're supportive of or the jury is out and that's I think a recipe for division and status and that's not what the top of the game needs so a new candidate needs to emerge with a different offer that can hopefully provide some unity amongst the confederations and national associations of voting the president.

6:15Dan Roan:UEFA have threatened a boycott of FIFA events, is that something that you support? Well, I think it's really difficult and it puts National Association and Confederation in a difficult position. And it's a problem of FIFA's making. This is a self-inflicted wound. They are the people, the organisation has pressed the self-destruct button. And the consequence of that flow now into the solutions that need to be found. Just be clear, what is your message to Infantino? I don't have a message. I can tell you that none of this comes necessarily as a surprise if you run a domestic league. For the last five to six years, the leagues have been asking for a seat at the table about some of the decisions that have been taken, particularly around calendar and new competitions.

7:06And we have consistently not been consulted on decisions that impact us, and that has led us to putting a legal complaint before the European Commission. So I think it's pretty clear what the Premier League ultimately thinks of Gianni and some of the decisions that he's taken.

7:21Dan Roan:We understand that his chief operating officer, Kevin Lamour, one of the highest ranking internal FIFA members to speak out, to break ranks and criticise the plan, has been sacked. What do you make of that? What does that tell us? Well, I know Kevin. I've dealt with him at FIFA. He's one of the people that will give you a good hearing. and it's sad that he's had to take the decision or the decision that's been arrived at with regards to Kevin's future. I'm sure he'll come back. But as he said, so himself, he acted on principle and there's now been a passing of the ways. So, just on clear, do you believe Infantino should step down as FIFA president?

8:01I don't want to go further than the FA's position. The FA's position is to withdraw support for him and I think I should back the FA.

8:08Dan Roan:It's been said by many that you can swap presidents but what may need to change is the system. Too much power is enjoyed by whoever is in the presidential seat. The system of funding for national associations means that political support can be achieved that way and that may explain why Infantino retains so much support around the world in certain places. Do you share that view that there needs to be a change, maybe a rolling presidency for example? Well, I know that's one of the ideas out there. I'm not a specialist in FIFA governance, but the optics of a proposal like FFE coming out and the incentives perhaps to get behind it just in advance of a presidential election, I think the optics sort of speaks for themselves.

8:55So I think an emerging unity candidate should have on his or her agenda reform of FIFA and perhaps even reform with the president's role and how it interacts with those things. I think when European people talk about governance reforms, sometimes it might be interpreted to mean that we want to take away power from other people and that's not the case. FIFA should be a strong FIFA. The Premier League supports a strong FIFA, making good decisions on behalf of the whole game.

9:25Dan Roan:Of those that are being mooted as potential replacements, whether that's Montaliani, whether that's Sheikh Salman from Asia, whether that's Nasser Al-Khalifi, Lise Clavnez, is there anybody that would have your support in particular? Well I'm not in the room so I will support the FA. I obviously haven't talked to them about it yet, I don't know many of the candidates, I know Victor, but one thing I'm sure about is that a unity candidate needs to emerge. Is that something that you'd ever consider in the future? No. Considering, right, simple as that. During the World Cup, we saw what many people felt was the politicisation of the game.

10:05Dan Roan:This followed FIFA awarding its Peace Prize to US President Donald Trump. Then you had the Balogun case, whereby you had the president lobbying FIFA to have his ban suspended. And that was then done. Whether or not that was linked, we don't know. But do you worry about the politicisation of the game that we've seen? Well I worry about that particular episode and of course we don't know what happens. I don't understand why FIFA doesn't have a very straightforward red card review process in place like we do in the Premier League for example. That I think would have been a much better way to proceed.

10:41But generally speaking FIFA is supposed to uphold non-political inference within the game of football. In fact it's part of its promise that it won't allow it to happen in the rest of the game. So I think it's a big issue and it needs to be thought through properly.

10:56Dan Roan:Another theme of the World Cup was commercialism, whether that was in the form of ticket prices or a 27-minute long half-time show in the final or hydration breaks. Are hydration breaks anything that might appear in the future in the Premier League, do you think? Well, we have protocols about hydration breaks and they were in last season. They'll be the same this season. If it's 30 degrees at the time of kick-off, the referee has the ability to put hydration breaks in place. So we see them as a player welfare issue, not a commercial opportunity. Further expansion of the World Cup is being talked about by FIFA to 64 teams from the 48 that we've just had, along with potential expansion of the Club World Cup.

11:35Dan Roan:Are you against such developments? Well, I have to declare an interest here. Obviously, I'm not a neutral party. My job is to protect the Premier League. So any further expansion of the World Cup means an erosion of the domestic calendar. It means the top players, many a few in play in the Premier League, will have to play more games. The only benefit it's got going for it is the fact that it creates some symmetry. But I wouldn't be supportive of a further expansion of the World Cup. The sun hasn't really set yet on the expansion from 36 to 48. We're already talking about more expansion. So I know I wouldn't be supportive.

12:08And the same applies to the Club World Cup, I assume? Yeah, absolutely, the Club World Cup. In the end, FIFA was put on the planet to look after the international game. It hasn't really got a strong reason to be in the club game. The club game is run by leagues and associations.

12:26Dan Roan:Before we move on, just a final question on this. Is it in any way hypocritical of European critics, including from, say, English football, of FIFA, about the idea of selling off stakes in the World Cup and other competitions, when European football and indeed the Premier League is no stranger to inviting in private equity in recent years? Is that double standard at all? I think they're two very different things. I mean, ultimately, FIFA is a not-for-profit organisation. The Premier League is a private company. The clubs are private companies. And in the end, FIFA is right at the top of the game and it has the pinnacle of the game within it.

13:02It's called the World Cup and it's a fantastic thing. I'm a big supporter of the World Cup. It gives everyone a fillip if it's run well and properly commercialised, and FIFA have a responsibility to commercialise it. But the idea of selling it off to private investment, I think, is wrong.

13:16Dan Roan:I must ask you about Manchester City, because here we are with the new season about to begin. It's three and a half years now since the Premier League announced charges against Manchester City over alleged rule breaches of financial regulations. a year and a half since an independent commission ruling took place and was completed. I know you can't speculate about why the delay or what the outcome may be, but do you accept this has now become a credibility issue for the Premier League, given the weight? Well, as you know, I can't pass any real comment or provide anything new today on it. I do accept it's taking longer than expected, and I understand that people want to find out as soon as possible what's going on.

14:02But I simply can't provide that. Our rules are very clear. We have to follow the process. And there's only one real clear route through, which is to allow that process to reach its natural conclusion.

14:12Dan Roan:You say it's taking a long time. Are you surprised by the length of time it's taking? Or do you think it's not a surprise, given the scope, given the scale of it? It's hugely complex, the hearing took 12 weeks. And so it has taken long when expected. Richard, last month Chelsea were fined£10m by the FA for their financial rule breaches spanning a number of years, as you know. This followed on from the Premier League's fine as well. This involves secret payments made to agents. Many fans struggle to reconcile that punishment with the points deductions that other clubs have received for what they regard as relatively minor in comparison PSR rule breaches.

14:57Dan Roan:Do you understand the view that the bigger, more powerful clubs have an easier time when it comes to regulation? Well, I don't think that's the case. I think that fans, when they're looking at these things, should expect to see consistency of decision making. And so should we. I think sometimes there are some very big differences about the different cases. So in the situation with Chelsea, obviously it's historic. It's very different to the PSR cases. In the case of Chelsea, the new owners came forward all the information and we decided to enter into a sanction agreement. That sanction agreement was overseen by a commission as well.

15:40Part of the role of the commission is to assure that that sanction is not unduly lenient. I think the key difference is, the counterfactual is, given the evidence base and given the lack of witnesses, none of the people involved with these payments are still at the club, we're not able to interview them, the evidence base isn't complete. The alternative to entering the sanction agreement was to go down a contested commission route. I'm not sure we'd have been able to bring all of the charges that the club ultimately admitted to, or be successful in getting them. So I don't think there was an easy choice for the board to make.

16:17We took a decision that the sanction agreement was the best thing for the league, and we're fully aware that not Not everyone agrees that that was the right course of action and we just have to accept that. So fans should want there to be consistent decision making without fear or favour, whatever the size or scope or history of the club.

16:36Dan Roan:This is the first season of the squad cost ratio spending control system, so this is important. It's replacing PSR after a number of years. How confident are you that this gets the balance right between allowing investment and retaining competitiveness because as you'll know there are critics there are some who feel that because of the discrepancy between the 85 percent plus the allowance that you have on top of that and the 70 percent that UEFA are enforcing for their competitions it means that clubs that are not in Europe are able to spend more that might have an inflationary effect throughout Europe as has been voiced by some at UEFA and beyond there's also the concern that without anchoring which you guys wanted and which wasn't voted through, it allows the biggest clubs, the legacy clubs if you like, with the biggest commercial revenues, a serious advantage that's going to harm competitiveness.

17:29Dan Roan:What's your answer to those concerns? Well, obviously that's not the intention. We think the competitive balance of the Premier League is in a good place at the moment. As you know in the past with the previous PSR mechanisms, again what we're trying to do is to align European and domestic financial systems. That was requested by clubs and it's taken two years of consultation. PSR gave a gap for non-European clubs on top of the European rules that were in place at the time and we think 85 % to 70 % is the right gap. If you think about what's above that you have to have enough money, enough revenue to be able to run your football club without incurring losses.

18:11So all these things have been carefully calibrated, discussed with clubs and we're hopeful and confident that it will continue to mean a vibrant and competitive league where aspiration is real and where investment can bring results.

18:33Dan Roan:This goes beyond what the KGB did back in the days. Conspiracy theories and the Football World Cup. Is there ever one without the other? Well, I've been digging into one of the very best back in 1994. Guy from Iraq gets a red card for a dubious tackle. I'm James Montague, and from BBC Five Live, this is Sports Strangers Crimes Presents Shadows on the Pitch. Listen on BBC Sounds.