Reinventing Football - what to do with handball, penalties and VAR?

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If there was a big red button that would just demolish the internet, I would smash that button with my forehead. From the BBC, this is The Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:40You're listening to the Football Daily Podcast with Kelly Cates. Hello and welcome to the Football Daily. This week across BBC Sport, we've been discussing what football would be like if we started from scratch. The thing I would change in football is... Five minutes simbing or simulation. Maybe scrapping offside might be the answer. I would do it like cricket. I think that would keep the speed of the game up. If they do it in the NFL, why not? For me, it would be to change the handball. If we were starting it all from scratch. Goals outside the box count double. A time limit on VAR decisions.

1:16I'm all about the chaos. I quite like the naughty chair. Every corner, the goalie has to go up, and it's just a bit of carnage. People are desperate to change football. Just build a little picket fence around the goalkeeper. I mean, dear me.

1:32You are listening to Five Live Sports Reinventing Football. What laws would you change? What annoys you? What needs to be fixed? Our panel who are going to be helping us along this evening, suggesting some ideas, football correspondent for The Observer, Rory Smith, former Manchester City and QPR defender, Nader Manua, and comedian and part of the Wayne Rooney show, Kay Curd. The format of this evening, we're going to hear some suggestions from various different sources. Then we're going to discuss them and then we'll maybe talk about alternatives if they don't go down terribly well. All ideas are welcome.

2:08Some more welcome than others. So let's start off with some of your ideas. Phil and Salisbury got in touch to encourage teams to be more attack minded. Three points for a win, one point for a draw, one point for each goal scored. No, that's going to cause all sorts of mayhem. That's going to be crazy. It's getting into like bonus try kind of territory there and it starts to get incredibly complicated. Imagine that on the last day of the season, though. I think you can't have a bonus point for every goal scored. That's insane. But you could. I mean, the bonus try thing in rugby isn't far be it from me to say that football should ever learn anything from rugby union.

2:47From any other sport ever. No, other sports, especially rugby league, perfectly acceptable. Just rugby union, Kelly. The bonus try thing isn't that's that's not a ridiculous idea. you just can't have it for every single goal. Two for an away draw, one for a home draw, and then you could have an extra point for every 10 goals you score. That might work. This is starting to sound very American and I'm not with it. People love maths. People love maths in sports. I had a suggestion which wasn't too dissimilar to this. I don't know if this has been sent out there as a little trap to get me riled here.

3:17Does anyone know what my suggestion was? You tell us, Nadeem. So my suggestion was, I'm surprised it wasn't one of the ones that led the whole show, given how important I am to the BBC. but what it was was to give a bonus point for every two goals that you score so as opposed to one for every single um every single goal my idea was for the two goals scored putting you in a position to where as we see a lot within football we can see a side that's clearly won a game you can say the ties all over and it sort of ends up in this sort of like 10-15 minutes where this is the teams are basically seeing the game out but I think if you could be a losing side that can still gain a point from a match if you do manage to score two goals i think if anything encourages more attacking football and not to the point to where it's crazy but to the point where you know the value of that singular point in the game which you've still lost and that will come by trying to commit a bit more as opposed to just go through the process and say well this game's done you know we'll go home and we'll figure this out for the next time could you not have the same effect by giving a bonus point for every team that scores five goals because that would encourage them to keep attacking which might open no no no well this this is the thing rory not every team has the capacity to score five goals but i think most teams have the capacity to score two is when you look at teams who are quite evenly matched we do tend to get some really tight games where it's more like a cup final to where teams are more scared of losing as opposed to more on the front foot to try and win so if you are in a position to where you are headed say you're on the same points as a side and you're winning one nil the difference between that one nil and a two nil could be quite significant as opposed to just accepting 1-0 as a good scoreline in itself and you just move on with it.

4:53I just started thinking of what we'd be doing on the last day of the season and that table would look crazy. I know but you'd love it though. You'd love it, Kev. And how much it would change. I think for what, I think not longer but for one season of chaos it would be, do you know what they should have done? They should have done this in the 2020-21 season when it was lockdown, when it was the lockdown season, the full one. That's what they should have done. They should have done it then because everything Everything was chaotic then anyway. The feeling, like you're thinking about the last day and I see a sense of excitement with that.

5:25Obviously I'm biased because it's my opinion. It was my suggestion. But I think it reminds me in some ways of when we'd be watching, say, European competition and it's like the away goals rule and stuff. And as you see the clock ticking down, you're trying to figure something out in your mind. What happens if this happens? And if that happens, what do we do next? I think there are lots of people that I know anyway, maybe it's very much anecdotal, who enjoyed that thrilling nature of football as opposed to it being in a position to where the game is done. Let's all just go home because it would give you a reason to never leave early.

5:55You're right, but I feel like the top teams are just going to use certain matches to just stat pad the whole league. But who does it affect though? That's the question. Because for example, Kay, if they were winning a game like 6-0 or 7-0 or whatever, the team that they're playing against can still get something from the game as opposed to at this moment in time where they cannot. I understand that, but they're not going to be able to. like when you look at like let's just take Man City for example because you're really fond of them like some games some games where they score five goals against a team and the other team just don't look like they're going to get a look in and sometimes when was this?

6:30well I mean a couple of seasons ago you know so there we go there we go and to add to that point if the teams up at the top are trying to go for it in terms of trying to score as many goals as possible let me input a moment from Premier League history and it was Crystal Palace versus Liverpool. Liverpool needed to score a few more goals to boost their goal difference to win the league title. And in doing so, it went from being 3-0 to 3-3. I think Roy remembers that one quite well. I do. Maybe that's an example of being too attacking. That proves my point, that the way you could have the same effect without kind of rendering the table completely chaotic.

7:06Just lots of teams score two goals. So it looked like F1, where I think Lando Norris can get 34 points in a weekend, which makes no sense to anybody. you give the bonus point for scoring five because what that does is it means the bigger team every rule change in football benefits the bigger teams that's just the rule of football if the bigger team keeps chasing goals at three or four rather than saying actually we've got two or three that's fine if they keep chasing them they open up which means that the lesser team the underdog has chance to score that makes the games more open the football change that Chris in Headingley would be about participation in the League Cup So he says it doesn't really have an identity compared to the FA Cup.

7:47So instead he would make it, and I don't mind this, a British Isles Cup. For example, the draw would be Celtic against Nottingham Forest, or it'd be Shamrock Rovers against Haverford West, or it'd be Ballymena against Aberdeen. I don't hate that. I don't hate that, but I also don't like the fact that he said the League Cup doesn't have personality. It's the only trophy with three handles. That's enough personality. Three handles. and generally the winning captain only has two. So what's the... I don't mind this, a British Isles Cup. I'm not against a British Isles Cup. If you look at the Leeds Cup, similar name in North America, which is MLS against Liga MX, that works really well.

8:29I think that is a genuinely quite good idea. Thank you, Chris. Simon says, scrap penalties for handballs in the box unless it's denying a goal scoring opportunity. Don't mind it. What, can we have a free kick in the area? Yeah, is it? It's in India, a free kick, which you've seen before, okay? Don't add brand new, come on, you're better than that. No, no, no, I'm saying, which you've seen before, that's what I said. Yeah. Handball should be changed in a million different ways. Well, listen, we've got more handball things coming, I think. If we get to them. Chris said, a different Chris, would like the offside law changed, so you can only be offside beyond the 18-yard line.

9:04And he says this was spread out play. I don't like it because, essentially, what you're asking for there is a game that's made up of low blocks that's it everyone just passed on the edge of the box i don't think that's necessarily a good thing because the people that would have the space are the people who are less likely to score because they're so far away from the goal itself so i think it just encourages defenders to just drop deeper and just stand there and just as i say just form that block yeah the argument with with um offside is you have to remember the law of unintended consequences so when they changed the back pass in 1992 which is the single most significant event in modern football, they didn't realise it would invent pressing.

9:42They didn't realise what would happen when you force goalkeepers not to pick it up. If you move offside further back, you get strikers standing closer to goal, which means teams defend much further back, which makes the game less entertaining. Donald said self-passing, free kicks and throw-ins. Throw-in, pick it up themselves, which quickens up the game. It means that anyone committing a foul doesn't have time to argue with the referee. I'm not, I mean, I'm sure people can make time to argue with the referee. And Stephen's really getting into the idea. This is the most enthusiastic response we've had to this.

10:15Let's face it, every tweak since the back pass law has been a nightmare. Leave the game alone. Something Barney from Buckinghamshire asks, can something be done about corners? Chaos every time there's a corner. What about four players from each team in the area? The rest of the teams have to be outside the box. He said something must be done soon. it feels like it feels a little bit like they're moving towards that with the kind of emphasis on fouls in the box at the moment it feels as though this is something that if not talked about seriously then at least mooted the only reason i don't like the idea is is because the game's become a lot more positional and i i like when there's a lot more chaos i think i think chaos is good chaos is good for the game whereas i think when it becomes all rigid and structured i think that's when it tends to get a little robotic and isn't as entertaining.

11:06That's what I love. We don't play Tiki Taka as a nation. We lump it to the big man and just cause some havoc. That's what it is. You're too young to be talking about 80s football. Jonathan Wilson the other day. When you watch football in the 90s, it was a lot more. 4-4-2. I'm a big advocate for 4-4-2. Big man, little man, just go for it. Just wait and it will come around. The thing that makes football better is if you just make everybody slightly worse. They are now all too good at football. That's the problem. If you make the players a bit worse, it'll be much more entertaining. We're talking about how to improve football.

11:45If we were starting from scratch, what would we do and what would we change about how it is now? Theo Walcott has an idea to encourage last minute screamers. Goals outside the box count double. However, in the last 10 minutes, so it's kind of a final phase system. system so it comes into play and commentates and gets involved in its final phase and its last 10 minutes goals count for double and the reason why as well it will allow teams to be able to take those risks if they want to sit back and defend a low block or if the guys want to attack as well counter-attack it's a nice balance it might see the game open up a bit Goals from outside the box have been decreasing in recent years as a percentage of all goals.

12:25Is this the way to bring them back? Yes, go for it. The only evidence I have for that is in the NBA, once they realised that scoring three pointers was more efficient, everybody just started scoring from outside the D. And in football, if you did implement a rule like that, I think more people would start trying to score screamers and we'd get a lot more of it. Except that you see it from the way that players defend corners and that they very rarely have a defensive player now on the edge of the D because they think, you know, percentage wise, if somebody gets a shot from there, it's probably not going to be a goal unless it's absolutely perfect.

13:04So coaches are looking at this and thinking, we don't really fancy the opposition's chances of scoring from long range. So would it just, instead of thinking, there's going to be a lot more long range goals, is it there's going to be a lot more kind of, you know, balls flying everywhere from distance? Listen, I love all these suggestions, but I've got to say, there's another side to this. And I know that sound when somebody shoots from 25 yards out and he goes into Rosette. I have heard it many a time. Obviously not from shots that I've taken, but I've heard it many a time from other people attempting those shots.

13:35And it's funny as well for Theo saying that, like, I feel like I've heard that on Baller League before. I'm sure that's the thing. I'm sure that's a game changer on Baller League. Well, listen, Baller League is a fertile ground for new ideas. There might be a few of them. Got no issues with it whatsoever. but I think it would be interesting if they did decide to do that. And also, I know there's some people listening probably who believe that it's Guardiola and others that have ruined these long shots and stuff. But I will introduce one Sam Halladyce and I remember playing against his Bolton sides and they were not encouraged to be shooting from outside the box because he saw it and said there's more value in winning a second ball and getting it back in the box because that's how you get more percentage of goals.

14:14Lots of people looking for ideas to encourage more attacking football, which seems weird because I think this season and last season have been two of the highest scoring, certainly pro rata for this season, but last season, one of the highest scoring Premier League seasons ever. So we're trying to get more goals, more attacking football. No points for nil-nil draws. I don't know how you do that because then what's the punishment for losing? But, I mean, Ned, I shouldn't have to make this point for you. Defending is part of football. Thank you. Yes, Rory. It's not all about attacking football. No, and there's genuine beauty in defence.

14:50someone suggests to Giorgio Chiellini that you don't get a point for a 0-0 draw he'd be furious with you, you wouldn't say it to his face but the other thing is Do you have Italian blood Rory? Italian by nature rather than by blood the beauty of football is that there's not many goals your average basketball game will finish 110, 106, something like that Yeah it's getting real high now baskets happen every 30 seconds every 40 seconds especially now that the Steph Curry Warriors revolution means that everyone's shooting threes and everyone can do it pretty much every time the reason you get that explosion that amazing feeling after a goal is because sometimes there's only one goal in a game that's what makes football really special it's part of its magic we're probably in the sweet spot now where there's lots and lots of goals but there's not too many because as soon as there's too many they're not as much fun because the jeopardy decreases if there were no points for nil-nil draws just for fun do you want to hear and in case people are listening and thinking I don't know where I stand everybody will know where they stand on every point here but if they're deciding if they're wavering if there were no points for nil-nil draws in 97-98 Arsenal wouldn't win the title and Everton would go down in 2007-2008 there'd be no great escape for Fulham Derby would get less than 10 points if there were no points for nil-nil draws in 2011-2012 Manchester City would not win the title and Aguero's goal would not have had that impact I'm all for this I'm all for this there you are there you are you might like this one as well then in 27-2018 City would have missed out on 100 points if it was no points for nil no draws.

16:21Who suggested this? I didn't have a name on it. Nobody admitted it. Nobody admitted to it. I've got yours, OK? I think that's the best idea that we've had so far. I've got your idea, which is to limit the amount of passes a team can make in their own half. Make your case. I think, I think, I hate this playing out from the back nonsense and I hate when a team just starts kicking it around in their area for ages and ages, especially when they're trying to see the game out. I would much rather have a passing limit and force people, force teams to go up further and attack into the other half. I know what Rory's just said about defending is part of the game and it's beautiful, but let's see them defending their own half, right?

17:06I mean, I don't want to see pressing really high up. I want to see people trying to move out and actually get into the opposition's area. To counter that though, but if I knew, for example, that a team had a limited amount of passes they can have in their own half, I would press them even more because then that would limit the quality into the other half. So in some ways it's counterintuitive. I would counter the point by saying, okay, English football 1969 to 1992. That's what happens when you don't pass out from the back. I'm not having it that football before 1992 was boring. That's absolute nonsense from Smith.

17:41You've got family interest in that, Kelly. But no, we all remember what. I've watched it. I watched it is the other reason so did I and I fell in love with it then but if you compare what we watch now to the majority not certain Liverpool teams of that era no but nobody nobody goes back and watches YouTube videos of draws in the middle of the table exactly nobody goes and watches yeah but that's what most that's what most of football is do you know what I mean that's what we're trying to we're not trying to improve the very best because the very best is always amazing we're not actually trying to improve the very worst because the very worst is often very entertaining but what we are trying to do is improve the bit in the middle which sometimes can be a bit of a grind and that's what we're trying to improve.

18:23Most of football is waiting for someone to take a throw-in. That is what you're doing when you're watching football. Well, throw-ins are massive now, Rory. I don't know if you've heard but this is the season of the throw-in. I don't know if that's been covered on any of the many outlets that you work on. They take hours throw-in. I like the idea. Actually, in that context I like the idea of just making them you have to maybe there's a time limit on a throw-in. You have to take it in three seconds or you lose it. But then you get into like shot clock territory and stuff as well. We've been taking some ideas from the audience.

18:51Community service in high visibility jackets for players who roll around trying to get a free kick or mouth off to the referee. See, for example, that's not going to be brought in. A red card means the player has to be substituted and gets a four match ban. Currently, an individual's red card, especially early in the game, ruins the match for spectators and the transgressors club. It's meant to ruin it for the transgressors club. That's part of the punishment. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's, somebody might've missed the point there. Instead of extra time, 11 versus 11, after each, oh, now this, this is getting into the kind of territory I hope we would get into.

19:25After extra time, 11 versus 11, after each minute, one player from each team is removed and it's decided by the other team until it's a 1v1 scenario. Decided by the other team. Oh, that would be a crash, by the way. Otherwise, you'd be fine. with it. Oh gosh. That's a baller thing as well but that is a really good idea but I would, I'd go one step further and I'd say every five minutes you put an extra ball on the pitch. Well, if it's nil-nil at 90 minutes, throw another ball on says Mark in Penzance. There you go. Extra time, sudden death, multi-ball. Do you remember the advert that had multi-ball on it?

20:02Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was going to say that. Yeah, yeah. It was very much similar to that. But do you know one thing I think we should do is do you remember MLS penalties that used to be taken from the halfway line? Yeah. I don't hate them either. I think bring those back because I think penalties, so many players have become so good at penalties, but bring those back from the halfway line. You have to like dribble and a keeper comes out. It's brilliant. That's for the league as well, to be fair. Listen, let's get this one. And Chris in Devon says, I really hate your shirt tugging. How about breakaway shirts with Velcro seams?

20:37If you tug someone's shirt, it comes off in your hand. You get a yellow card. And it's basically crossing, I think, this is not Chris's point of view, this is my point of view. This is like football meets Magic Mike. Everybody's got like rip-off Velcro shirts. Is that in Polar Ligas, won't it? It will be.

20:58Let's hear from former Premier League referee Chris Foy, the voice of Sense, who's been here at the BBC. Today's been a really interesting day answering questions from members of the public, football fans and supporters from around the world and we've just been chatting about various things how they feel they could improve the game and one of the biggest things that's raised its head is time and timekeeping they like to see more time they'd like to see the ball in play more for more time and I think there are changes that we could make to football because in the laws the referee acts as timekeeper I think there's an opportunity now to to take that off the referees and have an independent timekeeper so the ball would be in play more there wouldn't be as many stoppages and of course it would end it would improve the fan engagement where people would actually be able to look at the clock in stadia and see the clock counting down which would certainly build to excite to more excitement i feel that it's wrong but i can't make a logical argument for why it's wrong this one that there is somebody out of a job yes well there is that there is that And goalkeepers who fall on top of the ball.

22:08Absolutely, yeah. I think they're trialling this, actually. I don't know if you... There was an article about this a while back, I think. They were trying to do half an hour games. Half an hour halves, sorry. And have the timer stopped anytime the ball goes out. I think there's beauty in some of the dark arts and players' time-wasting in a good way. And sometimes it backfires on their own team because they're trying to waste time so often and then you see an equaliser being scored and then suddenly they want to get one back. I don't know, I'm torn on it. The issue with it is very soon people realise that it's like 5.30 and you're still in the stadium from a three o 'clock kick-off.

22:50Like it doesn't necessarily speed up the game as such. If you give people the amount of time that they believe that they want, all the dark arts, as Kay said, will still exist. And also add the nuance into this that, you know, somebody will suggest, oh, we want more time, we want more time. You want more time until your team who's winning a big game and you want less time and you actively want them to slow the clock down so all of a sudden people go from tapping their watch to be like oh my goodness gracious me when will this game end this is so stressful so i think it's a lot of these things i think they sound really good from the perspective of a neutral but then when your team is being affected by it i think can very much change your perception which is you know one of the beauties of football in my opinion yeah i think it's not as logical as that so it might be that if you go for a game clock the games might take longer because teams will be like right well you know the ball's out of play now so we'll take a couple of minutes at this point thanks very much I don't I don't think things always follow logically the other cautionary note I would add to this but the average 60 minute NFL game takes over three hours to complete with the various stoppages and timeouts now I know there's a lot of changing going on and there's a lot of kind of lining up and preparing for certain moves and all of that it is a bit of a cautionary note to to strike on there we have I've got one about a tactical timeout.

24:03Ashley Williams said you get one timeout per half. You can use wherever you want for a corner, before a free kick if someone's injured. So you actually get that time boxed off, where if the manager needs to get a hold of their team and change something, Ashley would let them have a timeout like they do in other sports. The only reason I would like that is just to see what nonsense Mikel Arteta would come up with. Why him in particular? Because, you know, he's the type to draw a light bulb on a whiteboard or something. I'd love to see him bring that out onto the pitch and see what he draws on to try and inspire the players.

24:39Do you know what? That's the start of a great idea. You could introduce the Phil Brown rule, which is where all team talks have to be done on the pitch. Yes. With players sitting around you like an upturned mushroom. You could even maybe, if you really wanted to go the whole hard, you bring out those little primary school chairs that you have to sit on at a parent's evening. You could do that. What's the difference between this idea that Ashley's come up with and say, for example, in the last 18 months or two years when we see a goalkeeper mysteriously just lay down on the floor and treatment come on?

25:08You know, that's essentially a time in itself. And let's be honest, that tends to not be received very well by most people in a stadium or people watching at home. There was a team who post lockdown, when the drinks breaks were introduced in lockdown, because they got used to having that rhythm in the game and that opportunity to talk to the bench and the bench for them to talk to the team. And they would kick the ball out of play or they would do something round about that time in order to give themselves that thinking time. If there was a big red button that would just demolish the internet, I would smash that button with my forehead.

25:45From the BBC, this is The Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

26:12He scored goals, lifted trophies and broken records along the way. It's a day to remember for Wayne Rooney. And now he's got a podcast. Welcome to the Wayne Rooney Show. Wayne Rooney, Kay Curd and me, Kelly Summers break down the biggest stories in the Premier League and beyond Plus we'll hear the funniest, wildest and most outrageous stories from Wayne's career I've never seen the manager go at someone like he did No way, someone's getting in and you just feel like saying come on, leave him now There's no way he could have played for Man United ever again The Wayne Rooney Show, listen on BBC Sounds This is the Football Daily Podcast with Kelly Kitts We're discussing the changes we would make and the changes that other people have suggested if we were designing football from scratch.