Remember When… We Went To France ‘98

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1:28on the long march from the Bois de Boulogne at breakfast time, full of hope and defiance but privately expecting nothing better than a draw. After failing to reach the World Cup for the first time in 24 years in 1994, Scotland were back on the world stage. Qualifying hadn't been easy, they'd finished behind Austria but went through as the best runners-up in Europe and under the guidance of Craig Brown there was real excitement that this Scotland team could be the first to reach the knockouts. In keeping with the patriotic fervour of their fans, the Scottish team arrived wearing kilts. The sight is strange to the French as the opening ceremony was to just about everyone else.

2:01They were drawn against defending champions Brazil for a fourth time, who they face in the opening game of the tournament at the Stade de France in Paris. For better and worse, it'll be an unforgettable day. The Tartan army explodes with joy. John Collins scores his 11th goal for Scotland. It is a moment to treasure, a moment of which legends are born. And unbelievably, it's Brazil 1, Scotland 1. So today we're jumping on the Eurostar and heading to Paris in the company of three Scots who were there, because this is Remember When We Went To France 98.

2:50Everyone says that we made the opening game of the World Cup a very good game and that's quite unusual. It was sporting and it was end-to-end stuff. We competed well and we gave, I think, the glamour opening that the tournament wanted. but our big regret is that we didn't get the draw, which I think we deserve. OK, let's introduce the three die-hard Scotland fans that are with me today. I've got Paul. Hello there. I've got Gordon. Hello there. And I've got Ian. How you doing? So, going back to 1998, at that point, getting to the World Cup was pretty routine for Scotland. I know you'd missed out in 94, but before that, five World Cups on the bounce.

3:31what did you make of the Scotland squad that went out there? I think it was workmanlike is probably the best way to describe it. It wasn't our most attack-minded. Bear in mind it was Craig Brown, the schoolmaster, who was the boss. I think it was workmanlike. I don't think it was anything special. I don't think we had any great expectations that this was going to be a special World Cup performance. And I think those of us who are old enough, I'm looking at myself here in the mirror, remember 74 and 78 where we had world-class players. I think we were devoid of world-class players, would be my take in it.

4:15Yeah, is that fair, Colin? Yeah, hard-working, 100%. Guys like Colin Henry, Calderwood, Craig Burley, but John Collins is probably there. A classic and a player we had. What was the feeling about Ali McCoy not going here? He was coming to the end of his international career, but... He'd had a bit of a run-in, I think, at the Euros with Craig Brown. And I remember McCoy saying the person who didn't play him was the first person he ran and cuddled when he scored a goal against Norway. Villapark? Villapark, yeah. Against Switzerland, sorry, yeah. And he ran to Craig Brown. I remember McCoy said, I don't know why I ran to him, because he didn't play me.

4:54so I think there was something simmering in the background why he never went but I think to not have Ali McQuest in the squad an out and out goal scorer is what any team cries cries out for and no no Gary McAllister who was injured yeah I was kind of working it out today I was going was that McAllister's era I was trying to remember I mean he was probably our most consistent performer and was the captain as well before I think he was getting injured so he was a real miss again playing at a top flight in England definite miss not having McAllister on the team yeah missing a bit of creativity and a bit of flair we didn't have the massive names like you say like the De Gleach and the Jordans and all that it was a more hard work Craig Brown type give nothing away did we not go the first six games in the qualifying and not lose a goal or something we were really hard to beat good defensive team and I think the expectations for Scotland fans from 1978 when Ali McLeod told us we all thought we were going to win the World Cup I think we started to realise that might not be the case and so we were a bit more realistic going into this World Cup campaign You've got a dream as a football fan though, haven't you?

6:09We always dream we're Scotland fans The Tartan Army, yeah What was it like being in the Tartan Army back in those days and before that in the kind of glory days I suppose? I think there was a bit of a realisation, I think as Gordon said there, that we didn't have the flair players. And I can remember my own circumstances about debating whether to go or not. And I remember saying to another, a mate of mine from university, another Gordon, we've got to go because this doesn't look good for the future. I don't know how long it's going to be. And he reminded me of this just a couple of days ago. That's a good prediction, actually.

6:50Yeah, it was a really good prediction. I said I just don't know when we're going to get back to the World Cup and it's in France, we've just got to go and that was the kind of sequence of events but the writing was on the wall because in that qualifying group as well Gordon we didn't really beat anybody significant or it was kind of Latvia we didn't really hammer anybody and we were struggling to score goals so I think the writing was on the wall Can you remember your first Scotland game all of you? I can, it was 1974 1974, home internationals, Scotland, England, 2-0 at Scotland. 2-0 Scotland, yeah.

7:27At that time, I stayed near Inverness. In those days, that was a five-hour drive down and back. So it was, I think it was two on goals, actually, but we kind of classified it as Jordan and Jimmy Johnson, but I think it was Mike Pedgeck and Colin Todd, but we'll gloss over that well-deserved 2-0 win before setting off for West Germany as it was in those days. And I remember 1974, watching it on the telly. I was 11 year old And I have great memories That squad Could have gone on That is a squad That could have gone on And won the World Cup We were so unlucky With Bremner's Deflection Just inches past the post Against Brazil But we went out Unbeaten And we had some Fantastic players on the team We had Doug Leach McGrane Dennis Law Every single one of them Were fantastic players So that was To me that was probably Our strongest We might have thought 1978 we were going to win it But 1974 I thought we had a a really realistic chance of doing better I remember two memories really my first ever game Scotland game was going with my dad to the Centenary International it was on a arranged in a February or January or February time against England and we thought this is great and I remember going before it and my dad said watch out for that Bobby Moore he's a bit class and we couldn't get near them and we got absolute hammer so that was my first Scotland game but my first Scotland game going on my own with my mates as an 11 year old was 1973 which was the Scotland Czechoslovakia game with Jim Holt and then Joe Jordan scoring and took us through to that one and that was that was magical but it was scary as well as I was 11 or 12 and I was standing in the open terrace and it was quite something.

9:16Yeah, what was the fan culture like back then? Pretty well. I mean, it's scary, it's quite an interesting word because I remember being 11 and thinking, gee whiz, you know, when we score, you know. I remember my dad put me in front of a barrier in those days in the Terraceon so you weren't getting piled on with people behind, you know. So it was, yeah, the culture was different then. The Tartan Army sort of evolved into self-policing, maybe more into the 80s, late 70s sort of thing. Yeah, and I remember the qualifying campaign, so it'll be 77, and the covered end at Hamden was where all the sickening started, and it was jammed in there.

9:59And when Scotland scored, it was dust, the dust just came up, and you couldn't see, because there was just pure dust coming up from everyone jumping up and down. So, nothing like going to Hamden Park now, with its families and nice seating and everything else. It's pretty wild. So how did the Tottenham Army change then over the years, sort of 70s, 80s into the 90s? You know, part of it, I think, when the England fans were causing mayhem and out of sheer badness, we decided to be good. We were the opposite. We'll show you. Yeah, yeah. We're going to be popular when we go places. We'll become all cuddly and friendly.

10:38Yeah, yeah, we kind of changed because it was getting a bit out of hand. The Wembley trips were getting a bit chaotic. The goalposts in the grass of Wembley. The trains down and it was getting chaotic. And Ted Croker tried to ban the Tartan Army and then changed it until Wednesday. And all sorts of things were going on. And I think the Tartan Army just decided, yeah, let's get the one up and ship and be the super friendly fans. And it's been like that ever since. Other fans from other countries love what we do. and we've got you know fans in various countries now that are self-proclaimed Tartan Armies which is a bit strange isn't it I mean it's really strange but from where?

11:17we've got the guys in our group that are still in touch fairly regularly with some German guys that were over at a game at Hamden many years ago the Croatian Tartan Army Amsterdam all places and what the Tartan Army tend to do is we've got these wee badges called let's say I've met the Tartan Army and people buy them Tatanami buy them and all proceeds go to a children's charity that the Tatanami run the Sunshine Appeal Tatanami Sunshine Appeal and when a bit of fundraising goes on so when we're in a different city a donation's made to a children's charity of every away game and every city we go to and I think that's That's one of the key things that I think people just kind of see as maybe different football fans if you allied that to departing which is not in stop and a lot of the locals join in I still scratch my head as to how you can have the Amsterdam Tartan Army and the Poland Tartan Army, but we do have people coming.

12:11But are they actually going to Scotland games? Yeah. That's mad. Yeah, a lot of good... I mean, I love it, but it is mad. It's totally mad. Totally mad. Yeah, especially when we don't win much, so yeah, more glottans for punishment. I mean, what did the Polish lot do when Scotland played Poland? Ah, good point. Seat the fence. They're half and half shirts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're so horrible scarves. Yeah, yeah, they're the people that buy them. You do see them. you mentioned the Croatians it was Croatians over at one of the most recent Scotland matches and they're in city centre they're going to the pubs they're doing the marches they just love it it's just different you know it's a different fan culture I guess it's just the whole vibe I saw the Tartan army a lot in Germany in the Euros two years back and the atmosphere was was electric like every it's a party basically and yes the sort of demographic has changed slightly but it just feels very good fun.

13:08Irrespective of what's happening on the pitch, really. Definitely irrespective of what's happening on the pitch. It sort of has to be. Well, I think you've answered the question. It's got to be. But yeah, listen, we love a good party. We always have done. Think of Hugman A, you know. We've led that celebration in the world. So yeah, I think you go there with no expectation and I think it also goes back to something you mentioned earlier that because we're not at every single tournament when you get there in Germany it was a perfect example we had that kid on tournament before with the COVID but when we got to Germany it was bingo this is this is what it's all about you missed us didn't you world so there's a little bit of enjoyment going on there shall we say the least we like to get the best fans award but taking away from the party and that does not take away from the heart when we get defeat when we get beat you know I remember the playoffs when we beat Holland and then we went over to Amsterdam and we got absolutely hammered and that was tough because we were on the verge of qualifying for a campaign and it took quite a while but people ended up jumping into the canals and having a bit of fun at night and it's kind of resilience as well it doesn't take away the heart but we've got to enjoy the party as well it's not just the party the result is the most important thing The partying is a good coping mechanism as well.

14:33Yes, best coping mechanism ever. Thank God we can have one. I don't know how we'd survive some of these results. Let's go back to 1998 then. So June the 10th, Scotland drawn to play defending champions Brazil in the opening game in Paris. When that draw came out, what did you think, Paul? Huge excitement. And how the hell did I get a ticket? That was the starting point of it. I mean, I'd never seen Brazil play, wanted to see them play Scotland in the opening game. It just was a magical, magical draw for us. It was exciting. How about you guys? Over the moon, it was like playing Brazil. I mean, I love Brazil.

15:19I'm playing the world champions at the opening ceremony. It was like our World Cup final. And I'm thinking, this is our World Cup final. Centre stage got to be there. Yeah, it was just an unbelievable draw. we didn't have any expectations so it's not even a free hit because there's no expectation and the anticipation was building up to it was so good because you know you'd known for four or five months that's who you were playing you know I think the thing about that Brazil game as well is like we've played them at various competitions and even at friendlies they score four absolute screamers past you that was a known goal and a scrawny corner kick goal hitting off somebody's shoulder it was just it was so hard to take that defeat because we kind of deserved at least a draw out of that definitely did you all had with tickets did you have tickets I didn't have tickets I didn't have tickets for that game I had for the other two you were the lucky one then I was a lucky one plus metallic I was I was working for a brewery at the time I had a marketing agency and we did a big campaign and as part of my reward for pulling it together was the deal was I was getting two tickets for the first game.

16:31I negotiated that. And then they started to try and get out of it because they couldn't get any tickets. And eventually the only way they could get round out was tickets and hospitality. So I was very fortunate to be sharing seats with Rod Stewart and Justin Curry of General Maitre. So when John Collins scored, I was dancing with some interesting chaps and so did you get in then Ian? I mean not in with Rod Stewart obviously no no we weren't that lucky and I didn't know Paul at that time so I couldn't even try and beg tickets off him or anything like that we tried everything as you said to get tickets it was so difficult and when the draw came out everybody wanted to be at that game and we tried everything tried agencies in America everything but it was all priced way out of our range but there was five of us there and on the day of the game we thought we'll go and watch it on a big screen somewhere I don't even think we knew where we were going to watch it and we ended up at the stadium we thought right we'll go to the stadium get some photos and have a bit of party with the Brazilians and then actually all five of us ended up getting in how we got in I don't know if I like to say on air but we all got in and it was a long time ago I can't actually remember how we got in that you got in it's fine we got in and you know something there was actually we got in and we got seats so I think because it was such a lot of corporate and hospitality there that not all tickets it was really nice Ian by the way yeah yeah I hope you and Rod had a good time with your prawn sandwiches but we got not a bad seat as well so not far off the half day line we ended up in the square you were talking about at the Plasta Hotel de Ville about 10 ,000 mostly Scottish supporters with some Brazilians and then anyone who supported anyone not Brazil was supporting us so that's a great atmosphere I think there's about 60 ,000 Scots went over there and clearly not all of them were in Ian, there's no I just want you to tell me the story about the flag because I've read about it and it's one of the greats, so take it away Well, there's a national heritage site in Stirling famous for its Battle of Bannockburn where Scotland in 1314 won the battle for independence.

18:54And there's a massive big flagpole there and there's always a flag that looks the size of a postage stamp at the top. And for some reason, I don't know why, we decided to borrow it. I don't know if this... We wanted to make sure that it was borrowed. Also, sorry, I've been there. This is a big flagpole. This is like, I don't know how tall that is. Well, if you could think about it being... pitch black and the person who had to get to the top did a good job. Well done, Harvey. So we were all up there and it was quite nerve wracking and we borrowed the flag, but we wanted to make sure that they knew the flag wasn't stolen because it wasn't.

19:38It was just on national duty. You've been called up, flag. Yeah, yeah. And we got an old beige curtain and we wrote gone to, with a number two, France, and put it back up in its place. I never actually thought anything more about it obviously we had to the thing until we started reading the newspapers and it was like they started to say Darten Army and flag blag and the story took arms and legs and it was on the national news and we'd start panicking actually and thinking we have got how can we go for two or three weeks and not lose this flag but we did return it and did put up another side of the curtain and said mercy and what kind of state was the flag in after a couple of weeks I'm trying to remember the women from the National Heritage said it was battle-worn and stained a bit like the Tartan Army a bit like the Tartan Army I'll tell you what I went back up that flagpole with about I don't know how many signatures there must have been about a thousand Tartan Army signatures all in the flag as we put it back up so it was a good story everybody wanted a picture taken with it including Walter Smith and Sandy Jardim just outside the stadium when two Scottish legends who were actually panicking because they didn't have tickets to get in either so

20:58This was watched by probably Half a billion people around the world Opening game at the World Cup When Flower of Scotland was ringing out Before the game started How did that feel? Amazing Goosebumps, it really did the bit as well where the Scotland team came out with the kilts on as well the only time that's ever happened and it was a surprise you know that just brought the fans and the team together it was really a big lift I think I mean when they come out for the warm up with the kilts an hour before or whatever the Hotel de Ville ever kind of looked oh wow the two things I remember before I watched it in a square were the kilts and John Collins winking when the national opponents played at the camera that's the two things that stick in your mind.

21:47Pre-game. And we already sort of alluded to how the game ended, but can you talk me through your thoughts and feelings as the 90 minutes unfolded, Ian? Well, when we lost an early goal, I kind of thought it might be... I should lose a shed load of goals. I was kind of panicking. And it was scrappy. It was off his shoulder. Yeah, it was an annoying goal. but for me I was actually thinking oh no here we go but we rallied round and actually started playing really good and when John Collins scored the penalty I thought we could have gone on and won it Let's just say we're glad there wasn't any VAR I'm not sure that penalty would have been given It might be a little bit soft It's a little bit soft It was compact as you say In today's football that would be a definite penalty because you just need to look at someone and it's a penalty they fall over So we're halfway through the second half ball comes to Cafu quite close in to the goal who sort of prods it at Leighton who makes the save and then Boyd is running back and it just ricochets into his chest and then very my memory is very slowly goes in and I mean it's it's a heartbreaker isn't it?

23:06Yeah that was a slow motion goal to break our hearts it was absolutely sickening especially after how well we were the stronger team at that point and for it to lose a goal in such a way it was just sickening it really was

23:38because it's one thing to lose to Brazil if they're scoring and kind of Brazil-like goals. But that's an ugly goal. It wasn't quite like the goals they got in 1982 against us. And we got the toe poke. It was just, yeah. It's because it took so long to go into the net. I remember Henry going back and he didn't quite make it. It was horrific. It was just the last type of, there's no good own goal, let's be honest. But, you know, if something sclaps off somebody and it's an accident, it was the way, boy, he just couldn't get out of the way. It was just... It was nothing he could do. It wasn't that flame at all.

24:12It was horrible. It was just horrible to watch. And obviously, the inevitable happened after we just couldn't get back in the game to get the equaliser. So it was a horrible experience. I still relive it. Maybe the memory plays tricks, but I seem to remember the second half where we spell five or ten minutes at 1-1. You kind of think, you know, we might have a wee chance. No, no, there wasn't three tricks. We could have won that game. I told you, no memory tricks here. And at least we got to really really have that moment when John Collins scored so we had that moment where we weren't getting beat we scored against the world champions Brazil but at the opening ceremony life's good proud and he scored in front of where most of the Scottish fans was well it's a great picture actually it's a brilliant picture of John could you see it from up in the posh seats yeah they give you binoculars sharing a pair of binoculars amongst you yeah I hope

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26:45This is the Football Daily Podcast from Five Live Sport. And so off the back of that result, which was disappointing, but, you know, came away with a lot of credit, then went into the Norway game. Where were you watching that? It was at the game down in Bordeaux. In Bordeaux, yeah. What were you and Rod up to? No, I didn't have corporate hospitality tickets at that one. It was just the first game. Listen, that's another game we should have won. You always felt with Craig Brown's team and very fortunate through work, I got to know Craig many years later, you always felt as if we were playing with a handbrake on.

27:28you know he just never kind of let them go and just go for it and I felt that should have been the game we were targeting but also you know looking ahead we probably thought Morocco were going to be easy but yeah everyone did yeah yeah but Burley's scored a good goal and there was a there was a great atmosphere down in Bordeaux the sets of fans that the opening game was special because of the opening game like a World Cup final as I said earlier but down in Bordeaux that was party central that is people every lamppost every there was a Scotsman at the top of it and it was parties Bordeaux was the highlight of the three venues Bordeaux was by far because we had five days of Scottish and Norwegian fans and a tented village and the French the French were there marching out of the streets marching together and remember afterwards the Bordeaux council took out full page adverts in the newspapers to thank you to the Tartan army for coming to our city and partying we hope you come back and visit us again I say England fans don't get that very often and in fact we've got exactly the same in Cologne the same things that happen come back to Cologne any time you want and there's always a Cologne flag at Scotland games now it's all there one of the things I remember about that is there was one of the bars which stayed open all night was that Connemara?

28:48aye and they actually let Scotland fans sleep on the kind of sofas of the bars they just stayed open bodies lying everywhere It was just unbelievable. I don't know how that happened, but nowhere we've ever been before do they keep the bar open all night for us and invite people to sleep. It was special. As they left, Scottish supporters were happy. 25 minutes ago, I thought we were out. The competition, first people home on the plane, and now we're not looking forward to the next game. We were hoping to get one by the odd goal. We didn't, but we're still in anyway, so it doesn't matter. So roll on the next game.

29:25That one-all draw, although a little bit disappointing because probably could have won it, I think the feeling was that you would go on and then beat Morocco and you just needed Brazil to get a result against Norway, and then you were out of the group. And I think there was genuine optimism that was going to happen. Definitely. I think everyone... Just knows a tear in Ian's eye, actually. Yeah, yeah. They're bringing back bad memories now. We actually played well against Norway. You know, OK, Brazil, we did all right, but I think we we stepped up a bit against Norway and I really really felt we could and should have won it chances near the end of that one absolutely so we were kind of oh right that's a point in the bag you know go and get the job done against Morocco in those days it wasn't quite the African Cup of Nations so I think we kind of just thought Morocco we're in here I think I underestimated them and I had a player sent off so I think there was the Scottish FA were handing out leaflets weren't they of saying this is how you get to Marseille for the first knockout game I remember getting handed this thing this is how you get in touch we were due to fly back the next day so you were kind of thinking what are you going to do here and we're handing out this how to contact for the tickets for the Saturday Marseille if we'd go through there's not many games I've been to watching Scotland where you actually feel embarrassed and I felt embarrassed about the performance that night, they were so off it and Burleigh who was excellent against Norway Eddie Sully died here and he just stood out and I don't know what he was thinking about but it was a red card and it was an uphill battle so we just weren't awful we weren't at it it's the quietest I can ever remember being at a stadium with Scotland fans I think it was such a letdown the funny thing was Craig Brown explained and looked at the stats and said the stats were really good for Scotland like the shots on goal and everything like that the Adorners movie Was he an early XG adopter?

31:24I think we deserved to win that. I don't think he was too convincing with the argument, but stats don't lie. We didn't play as we have done, and yet we had many scoring chances. Even with 10 men, we created one or two scoring chances. The bads fought bravely. And the goals were terrible, Colin Henry, Jim Leighton. Normally guys were 100 % reliable. They just didn't have good nights. Painful. Just didn't happen, unfortunately. Watching that Morocco game, which obviously was pretty dire from Scotland's point of view. Did you have a sense, as you mentioned earlier on, ah, this might be the end of a bit of a good run for Scottish football on the international scene?

32:04Definitely. I mean, I just kind of felt with the players that we had, and there was a lot of those players as well, getting, you know, Colin Calderwood, 30, Hendry. We'd been there, great servants, but you didn't see anything coming through. I think that was the thing you know it's been fairly sparse recently as well but at that time you just didn't feel there was anything coming that was backing up that team and it just felt at the end of the Craig Brown kind of era because we did kind of go from that to the kind of Bertie Vokes where we seemed to give everyone a cap because there wasn't that much around which backs up what you've just said that we had that era of anybody was getting a cap we almost got a game didn't we yeah you look at the team and go who's that that's playing I don't even recognise them we didn't think it would be 28 years no we've kind of been pretty spoilt and maybe now realise how well other teams have done over the years to qualify for so many tournaments World Cups and Euros I didn't see it coming to that extent you know we're just coming back now what was the atmosphere like when you got back home was everyone pretty glum I think everyone just went into their house closed the door and never came back out for another couple of months so I don't really know see you in it's 28 years yeah yeah yeah that's it there was certainly I think from the media point of view I think they started to dissect it quite quickly and usually when that happens it's the right let's review the game why is there no players coming through why did we get beat by a team called Morocco and again disrespect to you know a nation that we're really aware looking at football properly so I think everybody just kind of followed that path and just heading under the blankets it's so different back then because you didn't know what was going on I mean I know it's not hundreds of years ago but in France you used a phone box you phoned home I remember sending postcards but so you didn't actually know it wasn't like Germany where you're you're actually speaking to people at home through your text message or whatever at the game there you didn't actually have a feedback of the vibe at home it's only when you come home you find out oh the schools were shut for the Brazil game the tally at the school everyone's watching it you didn't have that link like you do now you've just reminded me of something of the postcards we sent a postcard back from every city to the Bannockburn Heritage Centre flag's doing well yeah we signed it from the flag we said the Bannockburn are looking after us back soon hopefully not too soon the postcard days if someone had told you then that it would be 28 years until Scotland got to another World Cup what would you have said Ian?

34:47I wouldn't have believed him that's for sure it's been a really really tough time and it's even harder at times when your neighbours are qualifying and everybody else is going to the party the tournaments and we're not there again and you try new managers you try different things you come close you know you're so close at times we could beat France the world champions Spain beat Spain we nearly beat Italy in a tournament and so close and so many things it just didn't happen so that's why I'm so pleased now obviously that we're back and I think now we've had two Euros we're back at a World Cup I'm hoping now we're coming out of that drought been in momentum because we obviously weren't qualifying for Euros either you know it was like until the Covid one you referred to it was 22 years without a major tournament and you've got a chance every two years so we missed X World Cups but we missed the same number of Euros yeah it's been tough but we're back now back for good as they say yeah well don't get that at yourself How do you reflect then on 1998 now, Paul?

35:51Really happy memories. I mean, it was a great experience from start to finish. It was a fairly unique experience for me. I went with my close friend Gordon, who we'd sworn that we would go to the World Cup at some stage and we were in a difficult position because he had a 14-month-old son and his wife was pregnant with his second child, soon to be on the way. That's a tough sell. It was a tough sell. And, you know, hats off to Janet Alexander. She said, as long as there's a villa with a pool, I'll let you boys go and do the football. And, you know, we had a great, great, great experience. But looking back at it, it was wonderful.

36:38And that's all part of the experience, and it's like his son's thrown up on me in the back seat of the car, and you just can't accept it. He's like, you know, a 14-month-old kid, who cares? But overall, it was great. It's maybe not as much partying because of that circumstance for us, but I've made up for it post-98, shall we say. Gordon? Yeah, I mean, I went with a good pal from Aberdeen and another mate from Edinburgh, and yeah, it's just the memories. We were actually, we met up at the weekend there, and we're talking about it, and it's just, you know, you can still picture everything and then they say something, you think, oh, I'd forgotten about that and you say something.

37:14And it's just the memories and the France-Germany link was quite strong for me because I thought they were very similar in terms of volume of people, atmosphere. And yeah, I remember in Norway, the Florida Scotland at the Bordeaux Stadium, really struggling to get it out. And it was the same at Cologne. It just, the Cologne noise just was similar. It just brought me back to that. And it was, I mean, they just give you memories for life, these trips. Absolutely. I've got the memories I've got the memories of five of us being crammed in a Honda Civic going across there and you know and the best times ever you know we slept in the car we slept on the road we slept on a footbridge one time we had a great time and it was absolutely fantastic and as you say when you meet up it all comes back all the stories and what a laugh so fantastic times and it's a bit like the age that we are now the groups that we go with now the younger guys come in it's almost like passing the baton some of our guys at France were like they were at the secondary school at the end of primary school and now they were in Germany and that just feels really good to know that they are then carrying it on yeah they've heard the France 98 stories too long they need to make their own stories now and they get the opportunity now definitely make their own flag yeah yeah well there's actually a camera up there now so I wouldn't realise that go Scotland wonderful Frode Grodas hesitated and Craig Burley from the midfield roll picks up a wonderful pass over the top by David Weir and elegantly Scotland's Player of the Year lifts Scotland back into the World Cup Finals Scotland won, Norway won and now just finally looking ahead to this summer, what do you reckon?