Remember When… We Went To Italia ’90

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1:28The 1990 World Cup finals didn't produce that many classic matches, but there was no denying the drama or the individual skills on show. And for some of those lucky enough to take part, it was going to change their lives. No World Cup has left us with more iconic images. Pavarotti's Nessun Dorma, Roger Miller dancing around the corner flag, Toto Scalacci lifting his arms aloft in disbelief, and of course, Paul Gascoigne's tears. Has actually Gascoigne got a yellow car on that? Oh dear. Oh dear me. is going to be out of the final if England get there. It was a tournament that saw England back as genuine contenders, but it was also a tournament that brought the global football community together, not on social media or in fan parks, but in piazzas and streets all over Italy.

2:14And England are out of the World Cup. West Germany are through to the final on penalty kicks. So today we're celebrating a golden summer of football and understanding it in the company of three fans who were there, because this is Remember When We Went to Italia 90. OK, let's introduce the three football fans that are with us today. I'm joined by Neil. Hi, Neil. Hi, Rick. Andy. Hi, Rick. Thanks for having us on. And Mark. Hello, Rick. So I think we'll deal with the elephant in the room immediately. We're talking about England at Italia 90. Neil, you're Welsh. Yeah. How did you end up at this tournament and why?

2:55I think it was, I mean, I was 20, I was 19 or 20 when I went. And it was just that kind of like, this is the first chance to go to a big tournament, even though we never qualified for anything until everybody knows, like 2016. And so it was just that moment in time. I was sort of like, you know, young and eager really. And so it was like, look, we can't miss this chance. Let's go and it's in Italy. Let's go and see it. It captured the imagination of everyone at home as well, Neil. and I wonder why that was because it wasn't like, there weren't loads of goals in that tournament. It wasn't like an amazing standard of football, but something about it grabbed us.

3:34Yeah, I totally agree with you. I mean, just mentioning that you went to Italia 90 makes fellow football enthusiasts stand up and go, did you? You know, everybody has that resonance with Italia 90. And obviously, I think I'd probably speak for the two boys with us. Like before that, you didn't know it and it was such a different experience going to those tournaments at the time. I mean, one of the games we went to, we scored Scotland, played Costa Rica. We bought a ticket off a copper outside. You know what I mean? And so it's just different days. And so it just, as the tournament went on, it's got this luster and this glamour which came around it.

4:07From Roger Meer dancing next to the corner flag. Yeah. You know, to the, I think the Cameroon players came out with roses, to Pavarotti. I mean, BBC got it so spot on with that music that, you know, I could cry whenever I hear that song. I know, it's quite Pavlovian when you hear that. Oh, literally. It takes you back. It literally does. I mean, I remember having my kids when they were young, and it was like kids get up to school beds, nappies, blah, blah, blah, and then I'd hear that music, and they'd be like, oh, I remember a special place. I remember a good time before all this. It took me back, and I think it kind of added, and then you had World in Motion, yeah, World in Motion, and then you had it in the order, you know, everything about it.

4:42And then as England progressed, you know, it was probably less so for a Wales fan, but I wasn't against England. As long as I don't win it, that's always my attitude as a Welshman. It'll be never at the end of it. But otherwise, I wish them well. So it just grew and it's one of those things, yeah, it's just special, isn't it? What was the expectation like before the tournament, would you say, Andy? There was great anticipation going into that tournament. And around about then, I think this was the time when the nation started to really get behind the World Cup. Previous to this, people sat at home and watched the World Cup on the TV or listened to it on the radio, in fact.

5:19But at this World Cup, there were World Cup parties. People were talking about it and going round to the friend's house to watch it. There were much larger groups watching that. People were watching it in pubs. So televisions were coming into pubs kind of for the first time. And there was a real buzz around that. And it was very much this time for us, it was England. The Cross of St George became really predominant. So we had the red and white cross and they also had the Union Jacks. previous to that it had only been the union flag that had been taken and people had worn shirts with and I've still got some of my old ones with the union flag on it but now it became England and we gained you know we gained possession of the team and I couldn't wait to get there there were so many little things that I remember the SO coins they came out can you remember those you went and got four gallons of petrol and you got a coin those had last been in in 1970 and people were buying those and there was just an absolute buzz in the country.

6:18What's part of that as well, the fact that England had done well and felt aggrieved in the previous World Cup, do you think, Mark? I think it was because, you know, England's World Cup history, apart from when we won it, has been pretty poor. And I think expectations did suddenly grow. And for me, when we went into 1990, we did have some well-cast players. So everyone thought we did actually have a chance of progressing, not necessarily getting as far as the final. But I think it was that groundswell of, we've got the players, we've got a fantastic manager who got hounded out of the job, sadly.

6:52And, you know, I think, as people have said, the expectation in England before you left was growing and growing until they saw the Republic of Ireland game. And then it was a bit of a, felt like a kick in the teeth of, are we going to once again fail? But I think there was massive expectation for the first time. So was this your first ever England away game then? The first game in Sardinia? It actually was. I got a really good opportunity to go. I was treasurer of Brighton Hove Albion Supporters Club and the National Federation of Football Supporters Club put out an appeal for people to steward the England fans for the first two weeks on Sardinia.

7:26It's quite a big call for a 21-year-old. It was. I'll go and look after this lot. I know. My parents were quite worried when I went over. But yeah, so I got the chance to go. I'm not sure whether I necessarily would have gone independently, but because I had that opportunity, it only covered the first three group games and I did go back because I got the bug What was it like when you first got to Sardinia? How many fans were there? There were very, very few England fans we were based on campsites miles outside the capital we did feel isolated and people I know who went independently had real struggles getting the ferries over it really felt like they didn't want us there and you know Sort of didn't No, they didn't and the reputation we had you could understand it But I think as it grew, there was problems, not going to hide from that.

8:15But I think the locals got to appreciate actually that the hardcore of England fans are actually genuine football fans. And we're there to see our country. And so Sardinia is very small. The capital was quite small. And this was a tournament where we had the, I can't remember how long the beer bands were for. It's like 24 hours before and so many hours after a game. So it actually became a game of could you hunt down a beer for the first two weeks pre-game as well. so for me it was all new my first away game my first away tournament and I thought they'd always be like that with England getting to semifinals and how was how wrong you were how was steward in the fans it was it was it was actually relatively easy because everybody we were there were with the small at the time England travel club right travel club was I think it had been introduced just before that but you could actually buy a membership to buy tickets while you're in Italy it was really strange and so we on our main responsibility was making was really counting people on the coach and counting people back the first game I think we came back with a third of the coach missing and that just followed it up is that I'm gonna say you didn't do a great job we had a time limit of like two hours one job mark yeah two hours post game everyone had to be back and yet people didn't and it was impossible to find people and but people made their own way back but of course didn't tell you so you you had to make a call so it was it was fun and games and as you say being 21 and that sort of responsibility you kind of it didn't feel that heavy on your shoulders because we kind of joined in with the whole getting caught up in being at a world cup and so similar settings to this happening Neil I guess you're in in Genoa for the for the Scotland Costa Rica game yeah we landed we we jumped land I can't even remember where we landed somewhere in France and on the way down we went through Marseille and England fans were in Marseille and lots of trouble had kicked off in Marseille so it was it was already in the air that kind of thing so anyway we went across and we just tried to go to we had no plan no money nothing and it was just like where can we go what can we do and we got to Turin and we went to see Brazil play Sweden at the new Stadio de la Alpi Juventus had just had that built um and it was just all like that That was very, very ad hoc, you know?

10:30So we were like, and then that night, we had nowhere to stay. This is a true story. And we had a Welsh flag with us, and we were going around all these hotels trying to get a place to stay. Like, literally, it was full, full, like, really, really late at night, really, really tired from walking. And we went into this hotel, and on the desk, like this desk in front of us, was a massive, big, royal standard of Scotland flag and all these Scottish boys. And they saw our Welsh flag, and we went, you know, and they went, oh, pick a room, boys. and they'd taken over the hotel. So we literally just pick a room.

11:02I don't know where the person was who owned the hotel was or anything. So we stayed with them and then we started going with them to go and see Scotland play. So the next game was Scotland, Costa Rica in Genoa. So we were like, okay. And there was a lot of Scotland fans. Oh man, it was unbelievable. It was unbelievable. The Tottenham Army were out in force. They were out in force and they were superb. What a force of nature they were. I always remember we'd got to Genoa and we were laying down in the park, laying down like that, a bit all tired and soporific. and you heard this noise come in and then you heard like the bagpipes and almost like the marching of this ancient army and they were in a row like all the people, you know, all the bands do it now, you know, from abroad.

11:37And then when they come to Britain, they all get together and walk in a big, massive line. No one did it back then, but the Scots did. And so we just saw them come on the street in Genoa and just were like literally gobsmacked, just like, wow, how good is this? And joined them and, like I said, we got a ticket off a policeman outside when the Carbonari or wherever it is, you know, had a ticket and let us get into that game. We saw them lose 1-0. But yeah, it was an amazing experience. Yeah, that kind of ad hoc approach doesn't really cut it anymore, does it? Yeah, you couldn't. You need a plan and you need money.

12:07Yeah, without the money, you couldn't. That's what I mean. It's hard to explain to people. Literally, that stadium was half full because it was Scotland, Costa Rica. So it was loads of Scots in both ends and the Italians weren't kind of interested. And so, you know, we just happened to get into it. But, you know, it was an amazing thing. I feel like FIFA talks a lot these days about the football family, but Italia 90, Andy, I think really cemented that as an idea and actually listened to Neil there talking about the Scotland fans and the kind of sense community, like there was stories about Scotland fans partying with all the Brazil fans in Turin.

12:44That kind of stuff was happening at this tournament, wasn't it? Oh, it certainly was. I've been to nine World Cups now and you meet the same people and the more that you go to the bigger your own personal family grows so it's a great experience when you travel away I remember in 1982 I was contacted by a professor from the USA we became firm friends for life so back in those days it was all by letter so we were basically pen pals Yeah, but he would come over to Europe occasionally, come to the UK and we'd meet up and he'd take me and my partner out, go and have lunch on him, which was great because we can afford it.

13:31But in the USA, when I'm going over there, I'm fully intending on meeting up with Danny from Colombia, the twins from Mexico. We've got Stavros from Greece is over there. Lewis from Seattle. So I've got lots of friends which I know around the world through that, as you say, this community. Yeah, you say you've been to nine World Cups. It is probably worth saying that you are the World Cup guy. I know this is audio, but people would recognise your face. You're like, that guy is at every England game and the camera always finds him. Yeah, if you Google that World Cup guy, I come up now. It's strange.

14:05It's a good title. It's the first thing I said to him when I came in. I said, I recognise you. Yeah. I mean, everyone does. every football pattern thing does. When you came back home, Neil, did you find it hard to explain to people what it was like out there? Yeah, I think that's a good point. I mean, I'm still a little bit like Andy's saying there on a lesser scale, I'm sure, but people in Newport who I haven't seen for years, I was just saying, you mentioned the World Cup, they go, yeah, you went to Italian night, you were Griffo, didn't you? You know, it was like we were the only two people I know of, I don't know, even in South Wales, but definitely from Newport who'd gone there.

14:38and yet coming home it was a funny experience because it was so like I said we had so many adventures there it was so exotic it was so full of excitement and everybody when we landed even back in Wales they've gone a bit world cup crazy yeah you know you could feel the buzz in the country and so to come back we were almost like lauded Hollywood stars to be like here they are coming back what was it like and and it yeah it just swept the nation I think it really did sweep sweet the nation. It was hard to say to them, you know, how to pass on. Well, they could see that we were massively excited by it.

15:15Things were very isolated back then, weren't they? There were no mobile phones. There was no internet. It was just before the internet was out there. So like you were saying about trying to find accommodation, nobody booked in advance because you couldn't. The only way to do it really was if you managed to find a guidebook and then you telephoned. But an international phone call cost so much but they didn't bother doing that. Could you do it on CFAX? Maybe was that possible? I think in CFAX you could book a package trip. CFAX holidays. Yeah, good times. You missed the page and then you've got to wait a long time for it to start again.

15:51I also, I think it sort of shows your memory works. I've told people for years that I was at, when Ronaldo made his debut or he was on the sub bench but didn't come on at that Sweden-Brazil game but he wasn't even at the tournament. but in my mind it was like that was 94 wasn't it yeah but I mean in my mind I literally told people I dined out on yeah he never came on the pitch he was on the subs bed and I honestly thought it was he was 12 yeah so I just think it shows you how like being wrapped up in something as well being so excited about it and your memory plays tricks doesn't it yeah but in quite a nice way I think a lot of people forget that England really struggled in those group stages Mark so it was a it was a one all with Ireland nil-nil with the Netherlands and then ground out a 1-0 against Egypt in that last game.

16:40And I don't know if at that point people thought England were going to be able to go deep into that tournament. I think that we forgot that if you look back in hindsight the group stages for England were terrible. The Netherlands we changed shape and I think it was it marked right at centre-back England went to a completely different formation never played it before. but I remember obviously my first away game Republic of Ireland game was terrible there was a huge thunderstorm and everyone was watching the lightning out the back because the game was so dire and I think no one was sure because three teams went through from that group and the England-Egypt result was the only positive result in all the group games and I think really people didn't know what to make of it we didn't play well particularly well the Netherlands we played a different formation we did play well scraped a 1-0 win against Egypt.

17:31And then I think it was back onto the mainland and no one knew what to expect. It became almost like a completely different tournament. It was so good to get away from the isolation of being on Sardinia. It just felt like a new tournament and a new England once we got to the knockout stages. Yeah, because England were effectively quarantined on Sardinia is kind of what it felt like. I can't really remember, Andy, from watching at home whether everyone was excited by Gazza at that point, like during the group stages, or was that later on? I think Gazza was, yeah, he was somebody that everybody was excited about.

18:07I think we had that spine in the team, didn't we? We had Shelton in goal, Butcher in centre of defence, Gazza and Gary Lineker up front. They were all household names. If you didn't like football, you knew those four. And with a team based around them, We thought we should be doing well, but as Mark said, the group stage was pretty dire. Every game in that group, not just ours, every game was awful. Were the fan base disappointed in Sardinia with what they were seeing? I think once we qualified, no, because we knew we were going to stay out there. But as you say, the fan base was fairly small.

18:44I really can't recall, but there's probably no more than probably 3 ,000, 4 ,000 England fans out there for the three group stages. and it had become that little bit of attrition because we were isolated we weren't made very welcome by the police as i say because of the reputation of england so it was all about results and to say the first game against republic of ireland afterwards it was just felt like you know there wasn't that groundswell of we can win this tournament it was it yeah that sort of grew as the tournament went along and the fan base grew as we got to the mainland so it was really we were treated like the lepers of that tournament and i think once we got off onto the mainland it all switched and then it felt like everybody was behind us and again because there was no internet we didn't know what the was happening at home obviously made phone various phone calls to people i remember phoning my parents up to tell them saying can they telephone my work because i'm not coming back was the first one um but yeah we didn't really know what what was going on back at home how how big the world cup had become and how the groundswell behind the team had grown as the tournament grew on.

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21:28This is the Football Daily Podcast from Five Life Sports. Did you make it to Sardinia? Oh, Lord, no, no. I think I've always said to people who ask about it, it was almost like a whisper on the wind. You could almost feel it in the end, people who were like, England are coming. England are coming or the England fans are coming. People were tangibly nervous about it. And hearing Mark say about them being lepers rings true to me because that's how it was there. We were in amongst it with the Scots and the Brazils and the Costa Ricans and the Italians and whoever you came across. And it was like, England are coming.

22:05And it was bad vibes. I'm not saying that England deserve it. I'm just saying that's what the atmosphere was at the time. You could feel it in the air. Literally like saying, well, are they going to qualify? They're coming onto the mainland. Like this foreign invasion, they're coming. You know, it did feel like that. Yeah, I think it reflects a difference because you were saying the Scotland fans marched to the ground and that felt really good. England tried to replicate that in one game and it just turned up to everyone being battered by the Italian police and it turned into an absolute disaster.

22:36Yeah. So I think that experience, you know, the fan experience for England was, I think it brought all the England fans around there together. Before the Netherlands game. It's a Netherlands game, yeah. And I think that brought the England fans together, but it still felt like that we weren't welcome. And I think from what you were explaining, how the Scotland fans were completely different. And I think that still happens to a certain degree these days. Certainly out in Germany, obviously there were thousands of Scotland fans out there, but again, they seemed to be much more welcomed than we were.

23:04And I think that's just the culture of Scotland fans are seeing as the party team and England fans are seeing as that. I think it's true. I mean, to be honest, back then, Wales, you know, we never went to any tournaments, but I went away with Wales or at home with Wales. There was a lot more trouble. There was a lot more feeling of that kind of like violence in the air. The Scots was just like a breath of fresh air to me. It literally was. It was like, wow, this exists. You're from Britain and it's just like a party. We'd like no aggro. Given all of that, were you still raring to get out there, Andy?

23:31No, I was raring to get out there, yeah. I got out there for the quarterfinals, which was fantastic. So we'd just beaten Belgium. Yes, David Platt. David Platt's goal one of the greatest England moments of all time were you there for that Mark? I was still in my top three ever that 119th minute and just a fantastic goal for me he was just really an up and coming player then he wasn't the main man but he had such a fantastic tournament yeah and that is one of my highlights ever watching England it's also a goal that you can immediately picture very precisely in your head almost from all of the different camera angles as well it's that iconic Yeah, all I remember is we were in the opposite end to most of the England fans, but there was probably about 1 ,500 England fans where we were and everybody was on the floor because the stadium in Bologna, it was really steep rake on the terracing, or seats on terracing, and just everybody was on the floor.

24:28And all I remember is I was on top of an inflatable crocodile. And that's my memory of it and just couldn't believe that we'd actually done it because that looked like penalties. It really did. I didn't understand penalties in England then. It hadn't started, but that moment to do it then, that's when we started to believe we could actually win this World Cup. And so you got out there for the quarterfinals against Cameroon then, Andy. And by that point, England fans were starting to believe. Well, it was Cameroon. But Cameroon were, I mean, they were a phenomenon in that World Cup. Yeah. Absolutely unbelievable.

25:03We didn't really know anything about African football at the time. There weren't African players playing in the UK and we didn't see any of it. An African team would qualify for the World Cup but they never did anything. And then this country came along and in their first match, they played against Argentina, world champions, and they held on to 0-0 at halftime and then the second half, it looked like it was all over. Cameroon had a player sent off, down to 10 men. And then they had the audacity to score and then they looked like they'd blown it when they got a second player off and went down to nine men and ended up beating the world champions 1-0.

25:44So that was the introduction. And, of course, the world fell in love with them. And then after that, Roger Miller was brought in. So the president of the country apparently phoned up Miller and told him to get himself out of retirement, get over here, we need you, 38-year-olds. This is your moment, Roger. Yeah, this is you. And it was his moment. So he came on in two matches. One in the group, I think it's Romania and Colombia, both were in the same sort of kit. And in both matches, he scored two goals after coming on. And they won that and they teed up against England. Even with all of this behind them, looking far more flamboyant, far better quality than England at the time.

26:26We didn't really think that they were anything. And we started off, we went 1-0 up against Cameroon. And then they turned it around, went 2-1 up. and it was only two Gary Lineker penalties, one very late in normal time, that won us the game in the end. It was very, very close. As an 11-year-old, I can remember obviously supporting England with my dad, but loving Cameroon so much that in that game I had the feeling of I didn't really mind who won, which is odd because I absolutely wanted England to win, but Cameroon was so fantastic and Roger Miller was so iconic and so cool. Famous dance with the corner flag.

27:08Yeah, with the corner flag. I mean, I imagine you wanted Cameroon to win, Neil. I guess I probably did, but I think the thing is, which I find interesting, that all of us here, and I'm sure everybody listening, will know what we're on about when we mention those moments. Yeah. You know, you say dancing around the corner flag, we can all see it. Yeah. You can see him coming out and giving out the roses. You know, you can see Lineker going like that to the bench and saying about Gaza crying. You know, it's everything through that tournament, which resonates like no other tournament does before or since to me.