Remember When… We Went to Russia 2018

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1:30I'm Rick Edwards and today we're going back to the summer that reignited the nation's love for the England men's national team. England have won a penalty shootout at a World Cup. Glory, glory be. When Gareth Southgate took permanent charge of the England team in 2016, things were at a low end. The Euros' exit to Iceland was still raw, then Sam Allardyce had been and gone within 67 days. And things didn't immediately get better. Qualification for the Russia World Cup was uninspiring. But then everything changed. Not only did England put demons to rest, the players also reconnected with the fan base, from inflatable unicorns to love train set pieces.

2:08This was a team that people didn't expect much from, but perhaps more importantly, it was a team that people liked and related to. They brought back our team spirit. They've been brilliant for the country. I'm so happy for them, even though we did win. So today we're returning to 2018 with three fans who fell in love with England that summer, because this is Remember When We Went To Russia 2018. So let's introduce the England fans I'm going to be chatting with today. We've got Seb. Hi, Seb. Hi, Rick. How you doing? We've got Dan. Hello. And we've got Salon. Hello. So in our last episode, we explored England's golden generation and then the Brazil World Cup that kind of followed it.

2:52Given those World Cups, How were you feeling going into the 2018 World Cup, Dan? I think optimism is the right word because, I mean, to coin a crypto term, when the chips are down, a lot of people whisper in your ear, now's a good time to invest when everything had fallen apart post the Iceland loss and the state of our team and the hopelessness and also realizing that, oh, maybe we're not going to go on to achieve of all the things that we've always expected that we were gonna achieve. And when we brought in Gareth Southgate, I remember thinking, it reminds me of Gary Lineker when he reacted when Claudio Ranieri was brought in and he goes, quite uninspiring.

3:35I kind of looked at that and I was like, uninspiring on paper, but that maybe feels like what we need. And I genuinely wasn't one of those fans that was unhappy about the appointment and thought we should have got in, I don't know, Sir Alex or Wenger or something like that. I genuinely felt quite optimistic because of the human side of Gareth and also how embedded he was in St. George's Park and the development of the players. I was feeling optimistic. So, yeah, November 2016 was when Gareth was appointed. How did you feel about it so long? I think I felt quite detached from supporting England men for a long time.

4:13I think I had a period of my life as a child. I was born in 95. So I had, yeah, detachment and just kind of pessimism was probably my response to supporting England. And I think when... Yeah, that's being an England fan. Yeah, sounds right. But maybe not for this episode. Maybe there's something different here. And I think that was it. I had low expectations. I think there was a rumbling of excitement. I think like a dormant excitement of, oh, we've done something different here. It's not Roy Hodgson anymore. It's not, you know, older. It's not Big Sam. It's not Big Sam. He did his best for that very limited period of time.

4:52And I think Gareth Salisket was sort of like a quiet thing in the background of my expectations are so low, maybe this guy can do something different, but not a particular, this is the one, we're going to do something here. Because this is a team that felt new as well, because, you know, Rooney was obviously out of the picture and you've got, you know, you've got Harry Kane, you've got Dele Alli, who was at the time absolutely superb. Raheem Sterling, John Stones. Jesse Lingard. Jay Ling, yeah. True. And it did feel like a bit of a sort of rebirth after that period of disappointment. Yeah, definitely.

5:29I think, like you said, the players you've got there, the calibre, it was just exciting and fresh in the same way that the appointment was fresh. The players felt fresh. I think there's a real hangover from the so-called golden generation. I felt quite detached from all that, that those players didn't quite seem to be relatable. The money that they earned and things like that, it was not necessarily their fault. But I never felt super involved and super invested in England because of that. But along came these guys, including the manager, and then the players, like you said, the Jalings, the Pickfords, the Canes, the Stones.

6:06they just seem like good guys Maguires they seem like good guys and also good players and there was just a real freshness about it but then at the same time I think I didn't go into that tournament thinking we're going to do well I actually like the fact that there was that lesser expectation than normal because there had been every other tournament I watched England in it was like we're going to win this we're going to win this you know that all started from Italia 90 onwards even though we probably well we didn't and we probably didn't deserve to be the favourites So it's quite nice to go into this tournament with just a positive, but yeah, realism about it.

6:42And also remember the games before the tournament started were fairly sort of lacklustre as well. And there were a few, it was not quite booing, but the crowd weren't loving it. And Gareth Southgate sort of came out and said, well, look, we're not going to be Spain in the next eight months. And I think that kind of lowering expectations for the manager also works because we could work with that as fans, I think. I think he set the tone with the media well. He did such a good job with the media. It was one of his strengths. It's so important to be an England manager. It's almost like it should be the number one thing of the job description.

7:21Can you manage expectations of the English public and manage the English press? And I think he did that very well in a way that we weren't particularly used to and I think probably caught a lot of the press pack off guard in lots of ways. because the the sort of perception that we had of those players before in the in the golden generation was i think largely driven by a kind of tense relationship with with with the media that's what informed it and once you kind of got the media on side we all just felt differently about these players dan yeah it's a it's a there's cause and effect right so you you have the players that respond to the paparazzi the paparazzi or the media are like oh well this is getting us hits and clicks.

8:00Let's lean into that. Gareth Southgate just said, listen, I'm not going to play paparazzi tennis with you guys. I'm going to respond to the elephant in the room straight away. I'm going to be clear and concise with my message. I'm not going to dig out players unnecessarily. And I'm just going to say things in a very straightforward, simple way. And once that happened, it kind of almost burst a bubble in the media that, oh, there's another way to communicate here. We don't just have to see who can grab the headline. And throughout his time, you can't think of any real moment where you go oh Gareth let himself down there I think he always spoke so brilliantly and that's why I still results aside still love him so much and still think I don't know if I'm ever going to see a better England manager in my lifetime for sure In terms of how he just kind of carried himself and presented himself yeah it already sort of feels like we miss it a bit because Tuchel is it's safe to say a different character There's no waistcoat yeah and that's what we really miss isn't it so crucial you did say how he presented himself and i thought is that subtext for the waistcoat there were weddings up and down the country in that period where where grooms were literally like for like wearing that exact same combo of the the light blue shirt the the navy blue waistcoat back on those wedding photos i think that was a bum steer but we nearly got there we nearly got there um so long where where did you watch you were at home right I was in London yeah it was I just moved to London and it was just euphoric it was really warm summer it was a really hot summer in London and I was very fortunate and I'd found this I've grown up a woman I played football since I was three years old I played for boys teams I've been around men and boys in my life the whole time supporting Liverpool men supporting England men and I moved to London and I found this thing called this fangirl and it had started a couple before as a photography series looking at female football fans in the Premier League and I met with the founder as soon as I moved to London and I was like as soon as I had this drink with Amy I was like oh I found my people and I had this beautiful summer in 2018 of a range of women from about 21 years old up to about 40 coming together in pubs for meetups to take over like old man pubs and watch games as a collective of women all in our England shirts with face paint and it just I think it was that community that allowed me to express a new relationship to the England team because I was surrounded by people who looked like me, sounded like me, had similar life experiences to me to watch the England team.

10:31And we fell in love with the team. And I remember when we went out, I actually wrote that love to Gareth and the boys who nearly, but it was, it was the girls who brought it home for me this year. It was this fangirl, this moment that really brought the energy and the sort of sense of community around watching England and redefine that relationship for me. When you said it was a warm summer, and I'll never forget that summer, I just had like rose tinted glasses. And I was like, what is it about your country doing really well at a tournament that just makes the place feel like the best place on earth?

10:59Yeah. And you're in a pub garden. Yeah. And so yeah, I watched most of the games at home bar a couple. And then I went out for the semifinal. I watched that was my first ever game at a World Cup. And I never ever thought I'd be in a country where a World Cup was taking place, let alone watching a World Cup game. Was that always the plan? No, no, no, no. That was, I mean, it's a bit of a deep story, but that was pure escapism. Like my father was terminally ill during the whole World Cup. And I was using the World Cup as a welcome distraction. I was so leaned in. I'd always loved World Cups for me.

11:36And then I just said to myself at the England-Sweden game, and I was like, if they win this, I was like I'm going to have to open Skyscanner, other flight companies are available but I was going to open my one of choice and just see if I could get there so yeah And how about you Seb, where were you? I was running an event space for the whole month and you mentioned it being hot it was so hot, we had these industrial fans and my summer was soundtracked by the noise of industrial fans but also laughter, happiness positivity I think there was a It's a fairly dark time, wasn't it? Brexit had happened a couple of years ago.

12:14The government was in chaos one way or another. And it felt like the country needed a release. And there was people all around London, just wherever you went. And again, living in London, we're very lucky. There's people from all over the world and supporting all their teams. And we had different nationalities throughout the whole time. But there was a real release and desire to enjoy yourself. And again, I think the team came at the right time. the positivity of the players the Southgate and actually just also the actual matches you know don't forget Tunisia we had to score late on 91st minute something like that yeah I was like it's England, Algeria South Africa all over again where you're like oh so this one's a guaranteed win hopefully we get this out of the way then Belgium's not a big deal and then but I mean Harry Kane I think that was the lift off towards his journey as England's next great striker pure instinct and listen not a second too late that's for sure and then the Panama game gave us all a bit of a lift I was at a house party because it was my mate's birthday and we were all a bit like oh we could all be in the pub and you know the kids running around but we just kept going hang on I know it's Panama right but how many times have England not done that against shall I say lesser nations how many times I mean almost every time well exactly we struggle It was just the freedom and the smiles and the celebrations.

13:40I watched them back again today because sometimes, obviously, you get rose-tinted glasses and look back on these moments. And when you look at it, the players are having fun. One more goal would put it beyond doubt. Here's Jung. Infield towards Lingard. Lingard with a little ball now to Sterling. Sterling back to Lingard. This is nice. Lingard with a curling shot. That's wonderful. That's a super goal for England from Jesse Lingard. 3-0. England out of sight. I remember driving home. I live about an hour away from there. I remember me and my brother driving home, playing free from desire on repeat all the way home.

14:12Just beep, beep on the A40, just smashing the horn and special, special day. It's just so rare to celebrate six England goals. Like to get that six times in a 90-minute period. That's the time when you've got to smash the horn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then from there, we'd built, as discussed, from that kind of quite low expectation level. You just started to think, hold on maybe this is clicking yeah it was like a pressure valve was sort of released I think Seb's point around it just being fun there was something about the players experience being mirrored by the nation's experience at the same time they were like reinforcing one another the better they were doing the more fun they were having the more fun we were having the happier the country was the more and it didn't feel I don't know I wasn't in England camp but it didn't feel like pressure it felt I think because of the circumstances before that it felt like it doesn't doesn't really matter we're having fun each game we're getting something to celebrate for by the time we got to Belgium we're like we're already through we've never really had that before we were there we were like we were losing and like we were still singing It's Coming Home like I was on a table starting It's Coming Home as we were losing to Belgium but also you compare it to the previous World Cup where we are out after the first two great games to be through out after the first two just incredible.

15:35We know a lot about it now. If you've seen Dear England or you think about, if you've read about what Southgate did, what he was able to do and create as a culture internally at that camp in terms of the psychological work he was doing with that group in order to buffer them but to let them feel enough of that joy and euphoria to like open the gates a little bit so that can come through from the country. Look how happy you're making people and it's okay. If you go out there and you have fun and you take your chances and you work hard together as a team, look how much joy you're going to keep creating.

16:03and he managed to create this sort of layer, I think, between the press and the public that was just enough, was getting in probably to the camp to motivate them and to create that culture of kind of safety and like security whilst at the same time as inspiring them to keep going. And I think that what he did in terms of shifting their mindsets, obviously the penalty shootout, right, that was transformative. If he's going to have a legacy of anything, it's how he created culture in that team. And then England get Colombia in the round of 16 and they go ahead and it's quite like it's a feisty game, is how I'd describe it.

16:41And then Yerimina equalises in the dying seconds of stoppage time. And you have that, you know, just that sinking feeling of, well, penalties. Same old story. Yeah, Jordan Henderson misses the penalties. They're all brilliant penalties from both sides. And actually, to be fair, the one that he saved from Jordan Henderson is still a really good penalty. Espina's just done a great save for it. And I remember that moment. I was watching it with my five-year-old daughter. I was sort of explaining ahead, this is what's going to happen. Unfortunately, this is what happens with England. It happens all the time.

17:17I remember watching Germany and Natalia 90, Euro 96, France 98, blah, blah, blah. We know the events. And I just said, this is what's going to happen. And I just couldn't. when the Henderson penalty got saved, I was like, but then that changed. You mentioned the culture. I know it's a missed penalty, but it just felt like it was all moving in the right direction. Hits the bar, and then again, you get someone like Trippier to step up who just slams it home. Great penalty. And then Pickford, in my opinion, he's the best England goalkeeper there's ever been. Still standing, still a waiter. And backer, right-footed.

17:52Up he comes. It's saved by Pickford. He got a left arm to it and Pickford strikes a pose and Eric Dier will walk forward. And if Eric Dier scores this, England have won a World Cup penalty shootout. Whisper it quietly. It's Tottenham against Arsenal. Dier against Ospina. He scores! England have won the penalty shootout for the first time in a World Cup. They're through to the quarterfinals. off they go to celebrate and finally, finally, finally this jinx is broken I'll always remember the thing I remember most about the Columbia game are the pictures the next day of the players Harry Maguire, John Stones looking back they're celebrating this iconic moment England have won a penalty shootout but John Stones and Harry Maguire even though we're talking about the fun and the positivity they've still got that looking back at the Colombian players sort of as if to say because it was quite a spiky match wasn't it?

18:50there was a lot going on but even that It was just like, they get it. Those players get it, you know. So it was a beautiful moment, and I think that was the turning point. England have won a penalty shootout at a World Cup. Glory, glory be. And then you just have that whole thing where, similar to, I think, Italia 90, where there are certain sort of images that really stay. I mean, this is obviously before you were born so long, but you probably know all the images anyway. Gaza crying. being the most obvious one. And then you have Harry Maguire on that unicorn, on that inflatable unicorn, and you have Pickford with his get your Ravon, get the Ravon boots, and all of this stuff, it just sort of fed into this idea that these are our guys, and we really like them.

19:43Yeah, because there was a whole generation of players that just, they were titans of the game, but like you were saying earlier, like there was just no relatability to them they were just the stiffest like unsort of touchable unrelatable group of players they were conditioned to be because they were they were burnt so many times by the press and by and this boom of the Premier League where they had they had to navigate for the first time I'm not just a footballer anymore I'm a celebrity and then you get this next generation who come through who are going okay well now I know it means if I'm going to make it at the top of the game I know what also comes with that as kind of a celebrity.

20:21But that alone isn't enough in terms of how to navigate. You need the leadership of someone who's going to protect you to buffer you and to show you how it's done and to say, actually, I'm going to step in and say this is too far from the press. And also, you guys are amazing young men and I'm going to help bring that side out of you and be a coach. He's a leader of young men. That's why he's doing everything he's doing now around the Lost Boys agenda. He's there saying, I've coached young men. I know how to access kind of the parts of themselves that they might have suppressed in the past and to create environments that allow that to come out of them.

20:52So many of us can learn from that. He's a manager, I think, that came in and said the technical tactical is so important, but the social psych stuff is as important. And I think that's been neglected in the old English managers of the past. It wasn't seen as important, I don't think. No. And it's where the margins are, right? You look at the managers who are doing really well in modern football, and they are people that understand that it is about the mind as much as it is about the body and what they can do. And it felt like Gareth Southgate was sort of the start of the revolution of that in English football, I would say.

21:22He started to think about, okay, well, how do you create culture? How do you prioritise the social and emotional side of these men as athletes? Maybe a sort of return in a different way, but Venables, I think, you know, Robson had a sort of arm around the shoulder kind of approach to their players and they obviously loved their players and supported them. And then we, I think, sort of drifted away from that through a number of managerial choices. It's a question of their skill as a leader and a manager, right? It's about what they prioritise and how they develop people. And I think if you don't just assume it's just going to come in my character as like, I can put the arm around the shoulder and I'll be kind and that sort of thing.

22:03It's like, no, if I'm deliberate about building culture and if I'm deliberate about supporting these young men off the pitch and giving them the support, it's not Gareth doing everything, is it? It's Pippa Grange who he brought in. It's a team he's built to do this work for them. and he's gone, that's where the margins are in this team and that's how I'm going to unlock the next stage for England as a footballing nation. When you said about creating the environment, I couldn't help but picture him creating the environment by getting on Amazon and ordering a load of inflatables. Probably. But literally that is important.

22:33Make this place fun. Make this place a place the boys want to feel at home and feel like they can just relax and be themselves when they're not on the pitch because it will help them when they're on the pitch. They had a coffee shop. They had a little basketball net going on. They had like a really fun sort of clubhouse environment. Yeah. But the FA have been really deliberate about that. And I think Gareth's been a big part of that, of saying the environment is as important as those things. So let's make it. When we travel to Russia, this place has, wherever we stay, everything has to be designed in a way that's going to make these boys feel that they can be at their best and without pressure.

23:02We're not creating spaces that are like, you have to be thinking about football all the time. The downtime spaces are as important. And we know they've put so much investment behind that over the years and continue to do so. of let's get the best facilities and the best places for these boys to relax and to be able to unlock the parts themselves that are going to allow them to do their best on the pit.

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24:12Five Live Sports. BBC Women's Football Weekly. The latest news, insights and analysis from across the women's game. Dame Serena Vigman, welcome to the moment. Are we including Dame in your title now? You know how much an honour that is. And it's remarkable team! And it's remarkable women! We want to play in a way that they can show their skills, so that's what we're trying to do. Win the World Cup. It's a dream. Listen. with the BBC Sounds app. This is the Football Daily Podcast from Five Life Sports. The quarterfinal against Sweden was then one of those very rare games involving England where it was basically sort of routine.

24:58Just sort of won it quite comfortably. You were like, what? So routine that at half time I was on Skyscanner and put my fight to Moscow. Yeah, yeah. I imagined you were doing something similar. Yeah, yeah. I was just like, at halftime, we go 1-0 up. And I'm like, again, the whole, the previous few weeks and days have just been so positive and so exciting. And I was like, no, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. You know, open SkyScanner, book the flight to Moscow, worry about the visa and tickets later. We can sort all that out. It's still only 1-0. Russia's pretty relaxed. Yeah, yeah. I've got a funny story about that.

25:30But it's still only 1-0 at halftime. But actually, I just had the confidence to go, I'm just going to do it. and of course we go in with Dele Alli scores in the second half anyway to allay my fears but I think it was just like you said the routine the confidence and the happiness all sort of melted together into this genuinely good feeling and it was like well I saw it as well England last time England were in a semi-final World Cup I was sat on my sofa watching England play Germany in tears you know eventually at the end so why would I not make the effort now especially being involved in football and knowing that something like a ticket and a visa would probably get sorted somewhere along the line probably as it did uh just both of you go out without tickets yes yeah yeah yeah i love that absolutely no no because the idea was the visas were linked to tickets your fan number but then essentially a a generic fan number got passed around so everyone could apply for the visas but as you said russia being russia even then i was still thinking i'm going to get to moscow airport i'm going to go through immigration and they're going to go you can go back on the plane.

26:34Not you, Sunshine. No, they let me in. And then luckily I'd put out a lot of feelers and within five minutes I landed in Moscow, I'm in a taxi to going through Red Square and I get a ping saying I've got a ticket. But it felt like a magical experience and I felt fortunate to be able to be in a position to be able to do it. And I know you felt the same, didn't you? Yeah, my toxic trait is that I feel like I will die tomorrow at all times. So if there's an opportunity to do something, I will be like, But I could literally cease to exist tomorrow. So I should probably do this. I don't think that's toxic.

27:06It's a lovely way to live your life. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Yeah, memento mori. Yeah, my wife will not be keen on the support of this moment. But I appreciate that. So I went out without a ticket. Again, my friend who was already out there, he sent me like a little ticket number. I put it in, got my visa straight away. And my story of getting to the airport was pure. like there could be a short film just on my journey to the airport. And when I landed, conveniently, I landed and someone I met on the way there who was also on their way in the same boat as me, we just met two Argentinian fans who were waiting at our arrival gate.

27:44And then they were like, yeah, we're on our way home. We've got two tickets to tomorrow's game. Do you want to? That's a touch. Because they'd been knocked out, right? They bought them in advance, ready for Argentina to be there. Now they weren't there. So they were like, okay, let's pitch up where all the England fans are going to be turning up. Poetic. Argentina fans allowing you to go to that. I mean, they allowed me by overcharging me by a mile on the ticket. So I guess, yeah, I guess hand of God. And now, you know, me paying their mortgage for three years. It's kind of worked out. But yeah, just handed them over a wad of cash.

28:17I emptied out my, yeah, my bag, literally. That was very irresponsible of me. And then I had a ticket in my hand all of a sudden. And I was, I remember sending a picture to my dad and my brother, like, I had the ticket in my mouth. I took a photo. I was like, I've just landed and got a ticket. I was like, is that how easy it is to attend a World Cup semifinal? Like, I just couldn't believe it. Should have come out earlier. So on the way to the game then, with your tickets, how were you both feeling? It was that buzz expectation. Of course, every football fan has optimism, whatever game they're watching, their nation or wherever it's their club.