Rio Ferdinand on the current state of Manchester United

0:00This is the Football Daily Podcast with Darren Fletcher.

0:08Rio, good to have you with us. I mean, the first thing I would say, it looks a lot nicer where you are than where I am. So I'm a little bit jealous. Only a few degrees different, but good to see you, mate. You all right? Yes, very good. Thank you. This is the perfect weekend to get you on. So much has happened at Manchester United, Manchester derby this weekend. I just want to take you back a little bit because I've not had the chance to speak to you. Ameren sacked, right decision, wrong decision. What were the emotions for you when you heard that decision have been taken? Because I kind of think before we get to where they are now, we've almost got to cover that off before we talk about Michael Carrick in this weekend.

0:43I think he's kind of split a lot of people. I think before he got the sack, I think a lot of people were going, well, he's under a lot of pressure here. If he got the sack, I won't be surprised, etc. Because I think when you look at it, it was just pure, cold, hard facts. His win percentage was the lowest since Alex Ferguson. Hadn't formed any type of consistency, even just in type of performance or identity as a team, it seemed hard in terms of getting across his methods and what his intentions were with a team to be kind of playing out on a weekend, week in, week out. It just was no consistency in us.

1:15The only consistent thing there was was that we weren't winning enough games. And so at that time, it felt like, OK, I don't think anyone would have been surprised if he'd given the sack to a point. But then when it happened and you look around and go, well, who's available? I think that's been the thing that a lot of fans and a lot of people I'm speaking to are going, right okay if you sack somebody surely there's someone in place i think all good business practice any line of work including football is if you if you're running a tight ship and a well-run company or club normally you have your next person on your list two or three of them down if something happened out of the blue and it just doesn't seem like that's been the case it's been almost like a maybe a reaction to a certain situation from what we're reading and reading between the lines there's been obviously a conversation that didn't go as well as it normally has done and the way that things were handled in the press conference by their manager couldn't be accepted by the powers that be at the club so they were left with no room to wiggle and just thought we've got to make a decision and get rid of Amarim which I understand but if there's nothing else that you've got out there waiting in the wings that you've kind of tapped up and gone you know there could be a problem coming down the line and just there it goes for a minute and then when this happens right you're in it seems like there's been no plan I think that's the thing that concerns maybe some of the fans.

2:31Yeah. So this is kind of a situation they've been in before. Ryan Giggs has been in as a caretaker, as a former player. Olly Gunnar Solskjaer came in as a former player, as a caretaker. Darren Fletcher's just had a couple of games as a caretaker. And now we go Michael Carrick, another one of your former teammates. He's got managerial experience at Middlesbrough. You know him as a player and you've also sat down with him and spoken in depth with him since he left Middlesbrough. Is he the right choice or was he just simply the only choice at this stage? Listen, I'm seeing a lot of people in the media, fans and that, and going up in arms at some of them and going, oh, well, what's going on here?

3:10We're back to square one type thing. We're doing it again, getting one of the old guys in. Well, who else is there available? Who else is jumping off the page? One, who's get a ball right this moment in time. And two, who you go right is right for this job. I don't think it's an easy call for the people making this decision. I don't know where you go and go, we've had a good plan here and we've got someone waiting in the wings who's out of a job, who's ready to come in. It just isn't like that. In their mind, our hands have been forced. We've had to make a quick decision. We've made that decision.

3:38Now we're reacting to the situation, which is, it's scarcity out there in terms of who is right for the job, who's equipped to do the job. And I think that what they've done is they've thought, you know what, we're going to go with someone who knows a good amount of the players, knows the club, and he's going to get a team around him, a blend of all that players experience and whatnot to give him the best chance possible. And I think that in this moment in time, you need a steady person who's going to come in and not rock the boat too much and just try and stabilise it. And I think Michael Carrick, I think he'll be in this situation right now.

4:09Where else are you going to look around and go, I think that's better. That is achievable and gettable. You've kind of been there under arguably the greatest Manchester United manager in Sir Alex. And if he's not the greatest, is certainly in the conversation with Sir Matt Busby. What skill set does a Manchester United manager need? Because they've tried so many different people, so many variations of a theme. They've tried ex-players, they've tried Mourinho, they've tried Van Gaal, they've hand-picked David Moyes. Amorim was the hot candidate at the time, the one that was supposed to be the next great coach.

4:43They tried everything and nobody seems to fit the bill. Nobody seems to be able to get this right. It kind of takes me back to Mourinho's quote when he said, finishing second in the league with Manchester United is one of my greatest achievements. And we all laughed at that because of the success he's had. But when you think about what everybody else has done, you can understand what he means. So as a former player and someone that knows Manchester United better than a lot of people, what is the skill set to be a Manchester United manager? What do you actually need? You need balls of steel. I know that to go in there.

5:14You need to be able to handle the media. I know we're talking about football coaches and managers here, right? But they've got to be able to handle the media at a club of the size of Manchester United with a scrutiny that comes. Because you get that wrong, it all quickly comes falling down. Yes, you've got to be a good coach and you've got to be able to manage the players and stuff. But you've also got to be able to do that. You can't have one without the other. Listen, like you said, I've said this on my podcast this week, we've had every single type of manager so far. We've had the wily old Lou Van Gaals, the experience of him and someone like Jose Mourinho, just probably not at his Chelsea peak, but still a top manager and a massive name.

5:49with a great character, knows the Premier League. We've had the young upcoming managers like Ten Hag and Amarim. We've got the local legends that have played for the club. We need to go down to the people that are passionate and a bit gunslinger type who just go at it and won't have it from the media. It will be hard maybe to handle for the club owners and the people that operate in the football maybe. It will be a harder call in terms of making sure they manage them. But that's what you pay to do, I think. And I think running away from somebody that, oh, he's a little bit emotional maybe, and he's a little bit, he could cause a few problems and he's going to rattle a few feathers.

6:27That might be what we just need now. We've played safe. We've had people that are very good, very good communicators, calm and cool and collected. We just need a lunatic. And when I say lunatic, there's only two people that I'm looking at right now and going, it might have to be someone like this. And by the way, lunatic isn't being disrespectful. It's just people that are very, very different and don't care when they're going to ruffle some feathers. and Conte jumps off the page to me and I think he's somebody where a jump at the opportunity if I'm not being disrespectful to where he is right now but again he knows the league he's won a league here he actually came into Chelsea when I think they were 10th done the same thing at Napoli coming up about when they were about 10th or 11th and won the league both times so he knows how to come in and stabilise and become successful quickly and then you've got on the other hand you've got someone who can absolutely coach a team and get a playing style and an identity of style very quickly within a club when he's been there he's done it at I think it was he's done it at three clubs already now and where we've seen it and it's been glaring and that is someone like De Zerbi and he can improve players and I think we need elements of both of those two coaches and I'd be I'd be absolutely fine by getting both of them as long as the hierarchy and the people operating football can handle them and I think that's that is part of your remit to be able to handle any and everything that comes through that door.

7:38Just on Michael Carrick before we get to that do you think there's any conceivable chance that he does enough for the rest of this season to get the job permanently and if he did, would it still be the wrong thing to do because they fell into that trap with Solskjaer that he did well as a caretaker he then gets the contract and it doesn't work out and they've got to start again do you think that this should purely be seen by the higher ups at Manchester United as a decision from now until May and then regardless of the situation they've got to sit down and make the right decision with a clear mind I think selfishly, I mean listen, Michael's been my mate since he was probably 13 14 years old so selfishly I would love Michael Carrick to get the job now until the end of the season, perform brilliantly and they go, here's the keys to Royal Trafford.

8:23I would love that. That would be the perfect scenario for me because it meant he would have done well and then he goes on to prove himself. But like you said, it has been done before, but everyone's different. I do believe that if you do go in there and you do well enough, you earn the opportunity to go on. That's what football's about. It's about earning the right to play, we say, in the change room before a game. Millions of times that's been said in the change room. Same thing with management. and earn the right to stay in that hot seat. And that's what Michael Carrick's got to do now. If he proves that he's good enough and he does well enough, why not give it to him?

8:51And I don't think you can blame the ball if he does well enough and there becomes a demand because of how well he's done to stay in the hot seat. But if I could waive a one, that would be it. Now Michael Carrick's been given a job, I'd love him to stay in there. But like I said, them other two guys, the two that I think are more achievable. You've got Tuchel, I think, would fall into that category, but he's with England, so it makes it very difficult. This is the Football Daily Podcast. With Darren Fletcher. From a small village on the banks of the River Nile. Everybody call me Mohammed, but in a short name or nickname, they call me Mo.

9:24To the biggest stages of world football. Goes for the corner! Salah! Salah is more than just a player. He's an icon, a symbol, a king. It's 6-0! And Salah rips off his shirt! Mohamed Salah represents a dream for Egyptians, for Muslims, for Africans. More than just a football player, he gave us hope. I'm Kelly Cates. This is Sporting Giant's Mo Salah. Listen on BBC Sounds. This is the Football Daily Podcast. With Darrell Fletcher. Just on kind of the bigger picture. Are we in a situation here with Manchester United where, even if Michael Carrick does well, that it's so broken behind the scenes that it's not really set up to be a success.

10:11I mean, it's only five minutes since Jim Ratcliffe was saying, well, let's judge Ruben Amirim in three years and then he gets the sack. Jason Wilcox didn't feel like he'd got the kind of experience to make the decisions he's making at Manchester United before he came in. You've got this Omar Barada situation who won a bit of a power struggle with Dan Ashworth because he didn't want to employ Amirim in the first place. I mean, it all seems such a... It seems rudderless behind the scenes. It doesn't seem as if there's a joined up plan. Does that generate a situation that even if Michael's successful, that you're still going to struggle to get sustained success because it's not going to be built on solid foundations?

10:46Well, I think that's why most of the fan base were kind of clapping their hands and were happy and rubbing their hands together when Ineos came in because they thought, right, football operations now is being handled by somebody outside of the ownership that was there previous to that, which wasn't being run as well as it should have been. So a new group are coming in to now run that. And what's been happening, I think Cristiano, Ranić, Jose, etc. have all spoken out about how the clubs run behind the scenes, which has a massive impact on the team on the pitch. And if this situation were to continue, then it's the same.

11:17It becomes a case of, does it really matter who comes in if things are so fragmented and unhinged behind the scenes? And I think that's the bit that's kind of a needle in a haystack kind of scenario. because we can all sit here and act like experts of what should be done, what shouldn't be done. But if we can't see, which we can't see behind the inner workings of the club, it's hard to then make a judgment on who should come in, why they should come in, what type should come in because the overriding factor is if the machine behind them isn't working, they're going to fail. And whatever that is, only the likes of Ranić, Mourinho, the Christianos and the like, these type of guys who've been in there and seen it working can tell us what that is.

11:55And so if I was Jason Wilcox or Omar Barada, I'll be going to those guys and saying, please can I have a coffee and an hour or two of your time, please? Run me through what was going on and what was going wrong back then. And then I'll be wanting to do all of that stuff. I'll be taking all of that information back and then going back starting from there to try and work things out. Because I think this is more than just managers. We've had too many managers, too many ones that are good, too many ones that are proven, and too many ones with huge potential for it to continuously keep going wrong to the level it's going wrong as well, by the way.

12:27It's not just going wrong and we're missing out on Europe by a couple of points here or there. We're finishing below mid-table. Just on that as well, you know, when you kind of look at that, they've gone down this managerial route of ex-players. I often look at situations in other sports and in other leagues where if you want to change the culture and you want to set the tone, that people tend to use players or people with experience of that franchise or club to do that. The Atlanta Falcons have just made Matt Ryan, who's their former quarterback, kind of the overall football czar to help them make all the right decisions, get the right head coach and strategise.

13:01Same thing happened in Denver with John Elway. Even though Brady didn't play for the Raiders, he's in there to try and set the tone and generate a winning environment in Las Vegas. You look at Edwin van der Sar and the work that he did at Ajax, a club that he knew very well. There's a lot of examples of people... Deco now at Barcelona. Yes. So why are Manchester United fixated on ex-players as coaches are not necessarily behind the scenes to set the tone. Yeah, well, I mean, that's another conversation. I can't believe we've discussed that Manchester United have had over the last 25, whatever, 30 years, that there aren't more of the players that performed and played within those times in the backroom of the football club.

13:41And I'm not talking, they don't even have to be around the first team. I'm talking in and around the club, working in some capacity where it's a reference point immediately that bangs players that are there, academy kids there in the face. Like, I always say this. When I was a player, I came in for a world record fee, by the way. Not just, like, just came in through the back door. I came through, banged through the front door, spotlight properly on me. I'm walking into Bobby Charlton. He's doing media, etc. I'm seeing Brian Robson. I'm seeing club legends. I'm walking around. I can't go eye to eye with these guys because of what they've done.

14:15I've still got more to do. And I didn't ever see that as a narrative. It was a, that's a stimulant. I hadn't won the Champions League until my fifth or sixth year maybe at the club. So Bobby Charlton, he's won that. He's an absolute legend. I'm not asking him what it's like. There are people that I sat with many times that no one would know. I've had conversations with these guys. Paddy Curran as well. About what was it like? I'm asking questions like a sponge. These are important conversations to be had for these current players. But who's the reference point to bounce off with that right now?

14:46Yeah, I see that. It looks like a long journey. if we had a situation where I said to you right there's a blank piece of paper and I'm going to say to you right you as a former player and a knowledgeable football person and a winner and a former captain done everything with that club if I said to you right write down what needs to happen to make this successful what would be the first three or four bullet points that you'd stick down to get it moving in the right direction you put me on the spot there listen it's a complex question because the answer there's so many layers to it but I think you've got to have somebody in that can come in there and the players respect one but respect on day one is great but you need to see that respect maintained throughout and that comes with good messages good training um and that the players see that what they're talking about is playing out at the weekend they're seeing them results and they've got to get and results are part of it and we can all talk about performance right at these types of moments here results is driven you need someone to come and get results immediately, which then breeds some confidence back into the team because three points will always do that.

15:52But you've got to have someone as well who's willing to take on the media and willing to take on the hierarchy. I think you need, like I said at the beginning, you need someone who's got balls of steel. You can't have a weak guy in there who's going to accept this and that. I want this and I need this and that has to be set out at the beginning. The hierarchy knows exactly where they stand with this guy and there's no deviating on that. So a strong character that comes in is needed because Manchester United is not any old club. It's very different from anywhere, especially in the UK. And I think somebody who knows how to coach not only players, but also knows how to coach human beings and people and manage people.

16:29I think it's such an important thing, even more so probably now than before, because I think before people were a bit more robust and willing to do things and learn on your own a little bit and be left to your own devices. Now, I think a lot of the players today, what I'm told especially by coaches, players want information. They want coaching. They want telling. they want to be directed and you've got to be a good communicator to get that across but as well as that on the training field off the pitch handling individuals and I'll go back to Alex Ferguson and everyone goes oh you're talking about but these are traits that I think all the top managers have a manager that can handle difficult situations within that change room and keep people engaged at the same time is critical Do you think it needs to be more of a Manchester United influence behind the scenes than a Manchester City influence because they brought Barada in from Manchester City Wilcox is in from Manchester City There are Manchester United people, surely, who would know the infrastructure and what works at Old Trafford a lot better than someone from Manchester City.

17:22What they do at Manchester City might be great, but it might not necessarily follow through at Manchester United. And the evidence would be that that's exactly what's happening. Do you think there needs to be more of a more of a united influence rather than a city influence on how this future is going to be shaped? I understand that. then obviously the rivalry between the blue and the red side of Manchester. But at the same time, I think there has to be a good balance. I think if you're going to have people that are from Man City, this isn't something that's new, by the way. Dennis Law played for both.

17:49Andy Cole played for both. There's people that are legends at the club that have done both sides of the thing, right? But what it is, is respecting the history and coming in and understanding the history of the football club and what that means and then trying to implement that. But that's where I think the balance comes with having the right type of people that have been at the club before still there to be able to add that balance and to kind of add the balance to the argument when somebody on the side is saying they shouldn't be there, but they could quickly go back and go, yeah, but we've got Sanzo there.

18:16We lean on X, Y and Z for this, that and the other. And listen, I have to say, by the way, I speak to Jason Wilcox. I played with him at Leeds, so I've known him for many years. And when I do speak to him about Manchester United, the respect that he has for the history, the respect that he has for the playing style and what's gone before, that isn't lost on him. Trust me, he understands what it is. The biggest difference, like the player, like the manager, like someone like Jason Wilcox or Omar Barada, it will be result-driven. Whether you understand it or you sound like you understand it, the results will be the driving factor in whether everyone thinks and sits here and goes, actually, yep, they get it and they've implemented it.

18:52So, yeah, I understand that. But even, for instance, there's players, there's coaches, there's players that have played for rival clubs all through the years. This happens. It's life. But again, if people start winning, that noise will shut down quick. Roy Keane said this week that Sir Alex Ferguson hangs around like a bad smell. I think that was his quote, which I thought was a bit strange. It strikes me, based on what you've said during the course of our conversation, that his influence at the minute and guidance is maybe more important than it's ever been, just to kind of get that Manchester United feeling back in.

19:24Yeah, and I would say, and I have to say, I don't think Sir Alex Ferguson has the influence that people probably think he does at the club. I think he should have an influence at the club, but I don't think he has the influence that people think he has. I would say, and I disagree with that, I think his presence is felt there. He goes to games. By the way, is there anyone on the planet who probably deserves a seat in the stadium every week more than Alex Ferguson? So I think to say he's hanging around like a bad smile probably airs on the side of disrespectful to someone like Alex Ferguson. I think if anyone deserves a seat in the director's box week in, week out at Old Trafford, it is him.

19:54I don't think he's somebody who meddles and angles in. I think people ring him, ask for opinions and put things on his plate. And then if he comes back to me, he does. Not saying that's the hierarchy or the people that are operating the football, but the likes of Fletcher, the likes of Carrick probably do call him. But they respect him. He was the manager. They've seen most of their career has been alongside him, watching him do his things. So why wouldn't you call on that experience? I don't agree with what Roy said in that sense. I think David Gill as well. These guys are Man United fans. They love the club.

20:24Why aren't they going to hang about the club and be around the club? I think that's more personal and that's probably between maybe Roy and his situation with the manager and stuff. but I just don't I wouldn't agree with that myself even the stuff with the coaches and stuff like that and calling out the coaches like Johnny Evans is a young coach why shouldn't he get a chance to come into the club he knows every single player in that club better than any coach on the planet right now other than the ones who have been there recently because he's played there he knows them all why wouldn't you bring him on your staff I don't understand if you want to get to know what Kobe Mane is like because you want to reboot him and put him in a team I wouldn't mind having somebody that knows him he's been in a change room he knows how he works close to me how do we get a bit more out of Bruno because you know him.

21:03That's the kind of conversation I'm sure that Michael Carrick is going to want to be having. Like, sit down and tell me about every single one of these players because you, Johnny, have lived with him and breathed with him for a couple of years now. And I don't know, I've just... I actually understand why someone like Steve Holland's there. He's experienced. Michael Carrick wants some experienced coach alongside him. He's gone for someone like him. Like, should he have gone for what? Who else has got experience that he should have gone for? I didn't agree with that and that's where his stance and that's fine.

21:30He can have that conversation and have that opinion.

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