Spurs’ bad habits, Arsenal bounce back and more twists in the Scottish title race

10:53Theo Walcott:Yes, it counts as a night game. Yeah, the floodlights will be on.

10:56Mark Chapman:Not in spring, it's an evening game I think Chapters you started the show with good afternoon I'm not sure we can take your word

11:02Theo Walcott:That's because Claire the producer of Saturdays is making a guest appearance producing tonight and it doesn't take a lot to confuse me It's completely thrown me

11:14Mark Chapman:You looked at Spurs and I think they've won five home games since 2024 which is not enough They've got this huge list of injuries and obviously if Kulis Estre and madison are able to play some part towards the end of the season that will be a massive advantage but you're reaching the stage now where they're very unlikely unless they come back in the next couple of weeks to be to be fully fit at any point this season they've got so many players injured that the workload on the 13 who remain is excessive they also have to think about the champions league they've got all this stuff that is kind of piling up against them that i think they've got the points advantage on West Ham, obviously, but their situation is really genuinely perilous now, Tottenham, because it's hard to see them getting the number of points they need to make it comfortable.

12:02Mark Chapman:And because of the size of Spurs as a club, the closer they get without being safe, I think the more stressful, the more strained, the more kind of intense everything becomes. And that's when bad things can happen.

12:14Chris Sutton:They've got some good games coming up. Let's get it right. Why are you... What's a good game?

12:20Theo Walcott:I think they've got some terrible games coming up. Have they?

12:23Chris Sutton:Well, Crystal Palace are in crisis. The fans don't like the manager, do they, anymore? They've got one winning 15. I mean, Fulham are a little bit flaky. Sunderland, the wheels are off at home for Sunderland. Nottingham Forest, their chance of going down. Their four are the next five games. If you think they're good, that's fine. They've got Liverpool away in that period as well. Yeah! Well, we had a caller into 6.06 who still wanted on the slot out.

12:51Mark Chapman:I mean, Fulham away is tough. Palace, I take your point, Chris, that Spurs would look at that and think, OK, that's definitely one that you kind of have to win. Spurs-Forest at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium will be a nightmare for Spurs if their form hasn't changed considerably. It will be incredibly kind of hostile and tense. And if you're Forest, you're probably looking at that and thinking there's an opportunity for us there. I cannot stress how bad Tottenham's home form is.

13:17Rory Smith:Do you know what I always look at it as well when you look at a group of players around you. You know, Chris, you've been in the dressing room when you see an English companion there and there's a few English culture who understand the league a bit differently to other cultures. They want to really feed that energy onto them. I don't think those players have because even you look at the likes of your Madisons who's an excellent player, but he's going to have to focus on himself and away from the squad at times. So he can't really affect the squad in that sense. I don't think they're on the same page.

13:47Rory Smith:I always feel that there's a lot of pointing fingers. excuse, blame game. And that's never a good sign when you're right down. And I've been down there in St. Hampton and it's essentially like that. And the people hide away in their phones, the younger crowd, should we just say, the younger generation, because it's an escape, isn't it? If you go lost in your phone, that happens. After the games, I'm pretty sure truce won't be said. I even remember Mikel Arteta, when I was playing with him, he experienced the fact that we weren't going to make the top four, which was the ultimate target. And I spoke about this on numerous occasions.

14:17Rory Smith:And he said a few truce. I don't think they've got the characters to say a few truths in a controlled, safe environment. I think it comes out. I think it will just come out. And I think that's the problem.

14:28Theo Walcott:From an Arsenal perspective, Theo, rather than going down title race and who has what and this, that and the other, is the biggest positive to come out of yesterday what Jokeres did?

14:41Rory Smith:Yeah, absolutely. I think I always give a bit of leeway for players that come from different leagues. because I think they need to have that time. And I think it's just the fact that he's had to adapt very quickly and the expectation to win the league, and it's kind of all on him. And I actually felt watching him from the start of the season, he put too much pressure on himself, and he kind of went away from what he's good at. And if you're going to type in Jokeres on YouTube or wherever you want to see it, that's exactly his game. Find him, recognising space, recognising the weakness, and then putting it on them.

15:12Rory Smith:And look, it's like any player, you give him time and space, and you're going to sit off and they're going to make you look not like a professional athlete. But I just think the confidence is there, the feel, the energy. I think that's what was lacking. He was kind of making runs and then you could see him throwing his arms up and he kind of gave up on those runs. He gave up doing it. But he was just tired. He looked fitter as well. So I think that's credit to him, getting up to the levels that Miguel wants.

15:36Theo Walcott:Would it surprise you, Chris, if I told you that no Premier League player has scored more goals this calendar year across all competitions than Jokeres?

15:47Chris Sutton:Yeah, well, that has surprised me a little bit. You have to credit Mikel Arteta for really sticking with him, but having the faith to keep putting him in game after game. And, you know, you've seen numerous press conferences where basically the only subject has been the Arsenal centre-forward, Jokeres, you know, why hasn't he sort of found form and hit the heights? I think that connection, that understanding that Theo has talked about, that comes with time. But I think that you look at his finishes yesterday, they were finishes of a really confident strike, a brilliant ball in from Timber, first touch, bang, didn't even think about it.

16:25Chris Sutton:And I love the second one as well, because Archie Gray actually looked for a second like he was getting back and Jokka has just brushed him aside and muscled him and composed himself to finish. So when I saw him even back at Coventry and at Lisbon, people sort of said he's a good channel runner. But his sort of spatial awareness and his brain about when to run in behind when they're spacing behind and then when to come short and link up, I thought that was on point yesterday. So, I mean, it's really encouraging now that he is hitting the form, which he has done with this run-in now because the run-in is fascinating and they'll need him to carry this on if they want to win the title.

17:06Rory Smith:Chris, were you at your best when you weren't thinking about anything? Because I felt like he's not overthinking it because that finish was just... No, no one's ever accused of overthinking things, Chris. I'm often accused of underthinking. I didn't mean it in that sense. I mean the fact that I always felt if I had more time, this is coming from the winnings perspective, I would then make a rash decision or just overthink it. But because he's been in that situation before, the first goal particularly, because you see it a lot of times in warm-ups or after the end of training sessions. The players love doing it.

17:40Rory Smith:They do competitions. And I've seen Jokeres do this. And that's where he wins that competition all the time, by the way, because he knows what he's doing. I just feel like he's not overthinking it now. What do you reckon?

17:52Chris Sutton:I think I always felt, you know, my game was always about building relationships with players, understanding. And that was, what are you doing? He's still there.

18:03Rory Smith:I love his celebration. My son loves it, so I love it as well.

18:08Theo Walcott:Theo finished his answer, and then as if he'd scored a goal, did he jok her as a celebration with his hands over his face? But go on.

18:16Chris Sutton:Very weird. Very strange behaviour that was. So my game was, you know, I always felt I was on top of my game when I had understanding of when the ball was going to come. And that certainly comes with time. I mean, I think that's what has happened with Jokeres.

18:35Mark Chapman:Yeah, I go along with that. There was a really interesting interview with Graeme Lesseau in the Times at the weekend, who is now running a computer called Machine Football or something. Graeme was working with Mallorca for a long time and he's kind of gone into data. And there's a little kind of heat map that my son looked at it and said to me, sort of, Daddy, what's that? And there was a heat map of Jokeres' touches at Sporting and his touches at Arsenal. And they've been completely different. I think a part of that will be that he's coming to look for the ball because he wants to get involved with the play.

19:04Mark Chapman:He wants to contribute. But ultimately, he's a box player. That's where he wants the ball to be. That's what he wants to do. He wants to be spinning off defenders and running behind and picking out those channels. And to be honest, where he really wants to be is in that little kind of inside left channel to cut in and put it in the far corner and score the goal that was Arsenal's fourth. And I wonder if what's changed as much as anything is that the other Arsenal players are now on his wavelength more and more. Arsenal's players are getting him the ball where he wants the ball.

19:32Theo Walcott:But also, Rory, it will come down to the make-up of those in and around him. So who is on the left of a three? How are midfield changes if you sort of have Eze as more of a ten as opposed to, say, Zubomendy, Rice and Odegaard as more of a three? I mean, there are all sorts of different elements that presumably play into it for him. Are you asking me that because of my experience of playing in high level, but very deep squats? No, I'm going back to the, yes, exactly. But I go back to kind of your point about Graham Lassau's data company and heat maps and stuff. Sometimes your position is going to depend on, and this was Graham Lassau's point in that article, you know, sometimes the external stuff isn't taken into account as much.

20:25Theo Walcott:They will only look at the player rather than system, other players, how every little bit affects the performance.

20:33Mark Chapman:Yeah, the Ocaro's thing kind of became a storyline. He had that big run of not scoring between Burnley and December, I think, Everton maybe in December, where he didn't score. And it became a thing of Arsenal's big money signing hasn't worked out and everything is then cast through that lens. But you're totally right that Arsenal's strength in depth is a massive advantage. It's the reason that they are top of the lead. It's the reason that they look best equipped to win the title. It's the reason that they are still, in theory, capable of winning all four trophies. They won't, but they are in theory capable of it.

21:04Mark Chapman:But it presents the difficulty, which is that Arteta can change his components every single week to keep everybody fresh. And for someone like Jokeres, who is to an extent, I think, reliant on the team around him, servicing what he wants to do as the kind of the end point of the play, that does make it more difficult. You're trying to learn other players' patterns, but those players around you keep changing. Why can't they not win four? I'm not saying they can't. I'm just saying it's very unlikely because it's never been done before. It would be an astonishing achievement to win all four.

21:35Rory Smith:But with all their options they have that are suited for each game, you can pick individuals that are suited for that game. That's why he's got the best tools, isn't he?

21:44Mark Chapman:They are as well set as you could be, but I just think I'm really wary of it because I think the more people talk about it, the more, if they don't, it will be used as a stick to beat them with and it shouldn't be.

21:54Theo Walcott:But let me ask you then, Theo, how much do you think their chances of winning the league hinge on what happens in the league cup final?

22:01Rory Smith:There we go. There it is. That was what I was waiting for, Chappers. Go on. That's the game. That's the one that essentially for me sets the tone for how this whole year is going to look for Arsenal. It really is. I think Man City will drop points. I think Arsenal will still drop points. It's that cup final in between is the ultimate, I think. And what's great about this competition is plenty of younger players before all these teams do it. As soon as it gets closer, they know how important it is and they put the big guns, they put all the big players out because they know how early this first trophy is.

22:37Rory Smith:It sets the mark and presence for the whole league. So that's the one.

22:47Chris Sutton:Steve Bragnell here, the assistant manager of Sunday League team, the Royal Oak FC. Are you sick of changes to our beautiful game?

22:54Mark Chapman:Five-minute stoppages for VAR checks. VAR, the talking point again after a five-minute-plus delay. Cryotherapy ice chambers. Alls in back at socks.

23:05Chris Sutton:XG double pivots and inferred wing-backs. The game's well and truly gone, and I'm here to bring it back. Game's gone. The Steve Bracknell podcast.

23:14Gary Locke:Listen on BBC Sounds. This is the Monday Night Club with Mark Chapman.

23:21Chris Sutton:on the Football Daily Podcast.

23:26Theo Walcott:Let's move on to Crystal Palace. The fans displayed a banner against the board and Oliver Glasner during their 1-0 win over Wolves on Sunday. I think it said the board was inept, said that Oliver Glasner is finished, opportunities missed, fans disrespected. Well, Glasner couldn't confirm last week whether he'd see out the rest of the season. So then he was asked whether it had changed over the weekend.

23:51Mark Chapman:For me, Oliver Glasner is not important. It's Crystal Palace that is important. And for me, it was maybe, I don't know how it was interpreted, but for me, it's if the club had thought they need a change, then I don't want to be in the way. That's what I meant. And I spoke to the board, to the chairman and to the sporting director. They said, no, no, we think you are the right one. This is for me important. You know, not that I say, hey, I will stay whatever, because I know we had the best two years in Crystal Palace history. And then it's not so easy also for a club to say, hey, I think it's better you leave.

24:27Mark Chapman:If you believe it's better for Crystal Palace, then let's talk, sit together. But they said, no, no, we believe in you. I talked to the players because that's for me important. It's not that I have to leave in London because otherwise I don't know what to do. No, the most important thing is Crystal Palace. and I'm here to give 100 % to be successful for Crystal Palace. But therefore, I need the players. I can't do anything alone, nothing. Okay, I can go into my office, but that's it. I need the players. That's why it's important that the players are believing in what we are telling them, I and the staff.

25:04Mark Chapman:It's important that the club is believing in us, that we can get this turnaround and the season successfully. And this is what I talked about. That's why I said, I don't know if the club has a different idea. I don't want to stay in the way, and then we will find a solution.

25:19Theo Walcott:Well, that was Oliver Glasner after the win over Wolves. Monday Night Club regular Crystal Palace fan Dan Cook from HLTCO, the Hopkins Look Into Curl One podcast, joins us. I cannot imagine, actually, in some ways, Dan, the turmoil that most Crystal Palace fans must be in over this whole saga. You've got a man who delivered the FA Cup sounding, as you actually put in a long tweet over the weekend, like he's in a marriage that's no longer working.

25:50Gary Locke:Yeah. I mean, it's obviously multifaceted. The banners at the weekend, I wanted to sort of say immediately that it could easily come across as if Crystal Palace fans are entitled. You know, you could easily say he's won you an FA Cup, he's taken you to Europe. I agree with all of that. and I will always be eternally grateful to him and his coaching staff and the players from last year for getting us there. I think my main gripe, and I would like to think the majority of Palace fans that feel a similar way to me would say this, is that he decided back in October that he wanted to move on. He agreed with the club that the best thing to do was not to make that information public because it would have rocked the boat.

26:30Gary Locke:It would have led to a situation like the one we find ourselves in now. He found out that Marguerite was being sold because, as our captain, we chose to get 20 million pounds for him rather than letting him walk out for free alongside our manager in the summer. And then on his own, against the wishes of the club, decided to announce that he was going to leave as well. And we still had 10 days to go in the window. You know, you've got a fan base and a group of players that didn't know before then that he was going to do that. I just don't see the logic of it. You know, if you want to leave, I understand.

27:01Gary Locke:I'm not suggesting you should necessarily stay and, you know, commit your life to Crystal Palace just because you've won us a trophy. But I didn't see the logic in announcing that he was going to leave. And ever since then, it's been a case of one week he'll say one thing, then he'll go back on it a little bit, then he'll say that he understands fans being frustrated. After the game on Thursday, he said that we needed to remain humble as a fan base. I mean, obviously, I can't speak. You know, I am a Palace fan, so maybe my perception of us is slightly warped. I wouldn't have Crystal Palace fans down as an arrogant fan base.

27:34Gary Locke:I think we are genuinely humble. And if he was a manager who had signed a three or four year contract, we would be saying, you know, we'll ride this out. He's won us in FA Cup. He's got us into Europe. We want him to stay. Obviously, we wouldn't be calling for his head. I think this is a case of him not wanting to be here, but wanting to be sacked rather than walk away without any compensation.

27:52Theo Walcott:I mean, my experience, Dan, and the others can come in is that it's my experience of football. It has always been a humble fan base. And actually what happened by winning the FA Cup, I don't think this has changed that. But what what I'm guessing you all want is kind of to feel respected. Well, yeah, I mean, to be honest, the respect thing, I would probably say instead of respect, it's more just valued.

28:19Gary Locke:Because I mean, for example, this European situation we find ourselves in is one of my biggest gripes with Oliver Glasner's management of us this season. because I don't believe if we were in the Europa League, obviously we qualified for it, didn't get in because of the paperwork, etc. or the Champions League, he wouldn't be phoning in the selections that he has. You look at the situation, he was very, very clear that Mark Gay was absolutely pivotal for us and half-time, 1-0 up away at Strasbourg, he took him off because he wanted to manage his minutes. He wasn't injured, he just decided it was the best thing to do.

28:53Gary Locke:We ended up losing that game 2-1 against Coops at home. If we'd won that, we wouldn't have been needing this two-legged playoff with Zergini Mostar that we are in the midst of, because we would have got the three points and we would have gone through. We're probably not going to get back to Europe in the next five or ten years. We may never get back there. You only need to look at someone like Leicester City at the moment to realise how fast you can fall away from a position of supremacy. So I think every Palace fan wanted us to grasp the nettle, and I don't believe that his selections in this particular competition have given us that opportunity so far.

29:23Chris Sutton:Do you wish the club had been more decisive when Oliver Glasner came out? You say he came out, nobody knew he was going to come out and talk about him leaving. Do you wish the club had been decisive in that moment and just moved on?

29:38Gary Locke:Yeah, 100%. I mean, there was a situation. So he announced that Mark Gay was leaving on the Friday before Sunderland away. He was very, very clear then that he was unhappy because that was him throwing his toys out of the pram and deciding to tell everybody that he wasn't going to be re-signing and he's made his mind up in October. He then came out after the game against Sunderland and said that he looked at his bench and didn't see a single person worthy of bringing on. So from a management perspective, I felt that was terrible. You've alienated six or seven people immediately. You've got a situation afterwards where he said that he couldn't trust the board and the only people that he could trust for the players.

30:15Gary Locke:And at that point, I wanted him gone immediately. and I think the board probably were going to do it. They decided to row back on that call and now I feel they've backed themselves into something of an impossible corner because if you weren't going to do it then, you're not going to do it now. But I mean, on Thursday night, we're playing Mostar at home. If we don't get through, I mean, it was toxic on Sunday. It will be even worse. I mean, significantly worse. If we don't perform and we don't get through there, it will just be a complete wasted opportunity in terms of this made-in-European campaign.

30:47Chris Sutton:It's quite a sad situation, Dan, isn't it? I mean, just how do you think, it's impossible to answer this, but I'll ask it anyway, how do you think he'll be viewed, say, five years down the line?

30:59Gary Locke:I mean, look, it's such an obvious thing to say he's our greatest ever manager. He is, you know, you can't, you could argue, for example, that Steve Koppel is still above him because of the longevity and the different spells. I think it's 442 matches Steve Koppel managed. So it depends how you look at it, But in terms of tangible success, you know, rocking up to a football club that have never won anything, taking us into Europe, winning the FA Cup, winning the Community Shield, it's beyond our wildest dreams. I never thought I would see it. So by definition, in many people's minds, he will go down as our greatest manager.

31:31Gary Locke:But in terms of his legacy, in terms of how we viewed as an individual and personality wise, he has definitely sullied it in its last six months. There's no doubt about it. Because as Mark said, you know, respect or value is a huge part of being a football fan. And you want to feel like your manager wants to be your manager. And it clearly doesn't.

31:49Mark Chapman:Are you worried that Glasner is making the situation so toxic there might be a little bit of contagion with players as well? That field factor has diminished at Palace. And the other is, and this maybe isn't Palace specific, do you tell me that the vibe, because I do, that he's massively impacting his ability to get the job he wants when he leaves Palace? Because the whole thing is a really bad look.

32:12Gary Locke:Yeah, for sure. just to answer your first question I mean I was out in Bosnia on Thursday and obviously it's such an intangible thing to say they're not playing for him anymore and I'm not suggesting they're going out against a Wolves or a Burnley or a Mostar and trying to not win the game but it certainly feels like you've got a boss, a manager that you know isn't going to be there in three months so you're not going to necessarily want to run through a brick wall for him you know Adam Walton got sent off against Chelsea a couple of weeks back, it was brainless but if the manager's going to go in and roast him for it at full time there will I mean imagine be a part of Alan Wharton's brain where he's thinking I don't really care you're not going to be here so why would I run through a brick wall for you?

32:55Gary Locke:He might only be there though. Well no, I mean this is the other thing he also mentioned Oliver Glasner the other day that there are a couple of players that are thinking about where they're going to be next season so that in itself is like have you cultivated that view? Have you led those players to feel that way? We don't know obviously but it just it felt like a peculiar thing to say from a manager anyway in terms of his prospects of getting another job I honestly believe that a lot of his frustration and anger which tends to boil over comes from the fact that he knows this run I mean it's now two wins in 17 I think because we obviously beat Wolves on Sunday but prior to that it was one win in 16 I think he knows that when you go on a run like that top clubs are not going to take a punt and then once you have had your Sunderland outburst, once you have thrown the entire bench under the bus, once you have said that you can't trust the board, you can't act like that at Top Six Club, because you'll be out before your feet touch the ground.

33:51Gary Locke:So I think it's almost like a runaway train of him scrambling and realising that that chance of getting a big job is fallen by the wayside.

33:59Theo Walcott:And let's be honest, actually, Rory, if you followed that train of thought, two of the two of the so-called big six have already biffed their managers this year as soon as they spoke out against the hierarchy in Maresca and Amarim. I mean, they may be framed as mutual or whatever, you know, just for legal reasons. But let's just say they have part of company with two managers. I would have stuck with biffed if I were you. I think legally biffed is absolutely right. Excellent. Well, I'm not sure I want you to be my lawyer. so I'll still tread a fine line.

34:38Mark Chapman:It's true. I think Dan's completely right. The run itself would have been a problem for Glasner. If you're United or Tottenham, which are the two that we know will be up, Liverpool might come up. There'll be other jobs towards the top end of the Premier League that might be available. Marco Silva's contracts up at Fulham. I wouldn't necessarily say Fulham are a bigger club than Palace, but it's the sort of thing that Glasner might be looking at as a backup option. I don't know. But a lot of those will be looking at it and thinking, well, the run is bad. but also the way that you've kind of sort of strafing everybody with your dissatisfaction.

35:08Mark Chapman:That is not what we need at all. You know, managers now, the pressure remains the same, the kind of the intensity, the responsibility, the fact that you're first in the firing line remains the same. But most clubs see them as cards in a wheel. They're not the old powerful figures that they used to be. You have to be able to kind of work within a hierarchy. What Glasner's basically doing is advertising to everybody who might have hired him that he can't do that.

35:31Theo Walcott:Dan, appreciate your time this evening. Good to see you. Thank you. Dan Cook, Crystal Palace fan from HLTCO with us on the Monday Night Club. Let's talk James Milner. Started in midfield and in doing so became the all-time Premier League record appearance holder on 654 after they won at Brentford. And then amongst all the notes that I have, you played in the under-21s with him. We know it is.

35:59Rory Smith:and he had a record there as well I think he's the yes 46 times he's a record there and I just knew from the day one when I played with James Milner I was 16 or 15 very long time ago I should still be playing when he's still playing anyway he was here for the long run because his attitude the fact that I was with the 21s for only about 14 games and he already made 40 games by the time I joined and he was still there he wasn't one of those players was I'm too good for the 21s I'm too old you know I should be in the first team that's his attitude he essentially was was never that you know such a cliche big time Charlie he was never that type he was so professional off the field which I learned so much from he had so much time for anyone that's why I took took away from my younger days when I watched him because he's not far from me the time you have for people away from the actual football and I think that's his influence of Brighton's only going to excel and I think when he's playing, they're going to perform better because James Milner is that type who gets the best out of everyone.

37:03Rory Smith:He got the best out of me when I played with him. But, I mean, it's a great achievement. He's a great professional. And I don't know when he will stop, though, because the hunger for his gain is key. So I don't know when he will stop.

37:14Chris Sutton:What position was he? What position was he? Well, he was a right winger.

37:18Rory Smith:He was a right winger and I was right wing, but then he went out to the left because he thought, I'm not as quick as this guy. You know, I'll stay out there. But he can, look, I could only play out on the right, to be fair. I wasn't as quick as him. But he could play everywhere. But yeah, he was right wing when I came in, but he adapted knowing that I was coming in as well because he felt, look, I've got another good player around me now. I'll just move. He was that comfortable going anywhere on the field. So I think that's just credit to him. He wouldn't ask questions.

37:43Theo Walcott:He'd just get on with the job. When you look at him, though, Theo, and knowing how we are told how he lives his life, he played in the middle of midfield for Brighton at Brentford. So as long as he has the desire to keep training, really, I suppose, that's the bit, isn't it? The dedication to the sort of less glamorous stuff. He's got more in him. Oh, I've seen him as top off, Chappers.

38:14Rory Smith:He's still got it. He's still got it. He's always had it. But he just speaks multiple languages as well. so where he can affect players that come from different leagues is so key, he's such a role model in every available asset honestly, he's to play midfield in the Premier League at that age at that level, that consistency still he's been very lucky with the injuries he's not had some major injury setbacks but just shows how he lives his life, I think that's credit to him again

38:45Theo Walcott:John, some other astonishing stats just from his career, which when you think about it because of the longevity they do make sense but they're still mind-boggling really he's scored a premier league goal rory against goalkeepers born in the 60s 70s 80s 90s and the 2000s so he's the only player to do that and since john murray won't like this stuff but anyhow since the premier league was formed in 1992-93 there have been just over 5 000 players who have played in the Premier League and almost half of those 49 % have played either alongside him

39:27Mark Chapman:or against him he's the ultimate Premier League figure James Milner he really is he's been a fixture of kind of our imagination I remember him coming through was a really exciting teenage winner at Leeds when he was 16 yeah the baggy top wasn't it yeah yeah and you kind of look that was when Leeds would I think the start of the financial crisis and he was the sort of hot one off the production line and I think I've said before went to school with my brother-in-law good cricketer James Milner very important important that the Yorkshireman is representing in this way carrying the standard for Yorkshire and for Leeds specifically he I think he is that rare thing that in football's always been tribal obviously it's become more and more kind of toxic that that tribalness I think most fans respect James Milner they might not necessarily like him particularly as he's played for the wrong clubs or whatever, but I think very few fans would look at James Milner with any real antipathy.

40:20Mark Chapman:I think he is pretty universally admired and extraordinarily well-liked by the standards of football. Chris?

40:28Chris Sutton:Yeah, I mean, just incredible to think that he's 40 and still playing Premier League football. I mean, the sacrifices he has had to make over the years to play at that level are just incredible. And his mental strength must be up there with most top players who have played the game just to play that length. So many different positions as well. I remember playing right, played right back, I think. Played right back, played right, played left, played centrally. I mean, as a manager, that's your perfect player, someone who will come into the team, play a position, not moan, get on with it, get his head down.

41:18Chris Sutton:And just an unbelievable career. And the fact that Theo is right, he probably will want to play on for a year or two. I don't know how his body, I don't know how he can have a body which does that. I mean, he's not a goalkeeper. Goalkeepers can play forever. But to sort of carry on. It's true, they can. Especially, I know Rory's big on physicality in this era and what have you. But he's an absolute machine. He was a brilliant cross-country runner, wasn't he as well, Rory? He's like you, Chris.

41:50Mark Chapman:He's just a very naturally gifted sportsman, I think. No, he was. As I said, good cricketer, good cross-country runner. I spoke to him about this once. I think he was a bit of a jack-of-all-trades in terms of sport. He had that full-on all-sports background, which is certainly healthier than kind of focusing relentlessly on football from the age of five. And I think it probably gives you certain advantages. The thing that I find difficult to understand as a layman, when Milner talks about standards, he says that the secret has always been that he set high standards early on and carried them through.

42:22Mark Chapman:What to you two is he referring to? Is it kind of attitude in training? Is it taking care of your body away from football?

42:29Rory Smith:It's all of that. but what I always used to think with James Milne if he's in a starting line up and he's playing the head of a certain player it's always that unfair it's unfair that he's always a 7 no he's better than a 7 he was better than a 7 and he's kind of been been trademarked that and I always felt like if you're in James Milne's position you want to play in that position you've got to be a 9 you have to be a 9 you have to stand out because he does everything good everything is better than good sorry you have to be excel what he's just poor at and his poor thing was an eight all the time so that's like how highly i rated him because of his standards he set on a match day on you know and it's just the match day preparation his preparation was just so focused and it was just nothing would affect him nothing and he's a crisp hit in the head about the the sacrifices he sacrificed so much and i just think that was the point for me that seven he was never a seven he was better than a seven I never liked that from him.

43:29Rory Smith:I thought that was a bit unfair when you always say he's a standard, he's a seven every week.

43:33Theo Walcott:I'm just going to read some of the managers he's played under as well, just as a final thing. I mean, he played under Sir Bobby Robson. Do you know when you actually go back? Terry Venables was at Leeds and actually gave him his debut. So he's played under Venables and Sir Bobby, Allardyce, Keegan, Souness Martin O 'Neill O 'Leary Mancini Klopp Deserby I mean Stuart Pearce Stuart Pearce Yeah I mean Goodness

44:08Mark Chapman:So he must have played under managers Bobby Robson must have been born in what The 1930s I would guess You're testing me now Yes And Fabian Herzler Who was born in the 2010s That is remarkable

44:21Theo Walcott:We're going to talk Scottish Premiership Next, a win for Hearts, a draw for Rangers, and a defeat for Celtic over the weekend. So Hearts, four points clear at the top. We'll bring former Hearts captain Gary Locke in in just a second. But honestly, Chris, every weekend, it just keeps delivering. It's brilliant.

44:45Chris Sutton:It is absolutely brilliant because, I mean, Gary will tell you when he comes on, when Hearts lost to Rangers, everybody was saying, well, that's Rangers. They're going to win it now. They've got the momentum and Hearts, they'll fall away. I mean, my thoughts, and I've said this before on it, I think that all three, I mean, you could even include Motherwell in there at a push. They're only 10 points off it. Well, you want to include Motherwell, don't you? Well, I do just because they've been the best football team I've seen this season, north or south of the border. Honestly, they play an incredible brand of football.

45:19Chris Sutton:they maybe will have too much to do but as I did expect I didn't expect Rangers to drop points at Livingston the bottom team who have only won this season but they all have their sort of frailties what Hearts have in their favour is with every passing game four points at the moment they're top I know Celtic have a game in hand I don't think Celtic can win it I really don't I think Celtic will finish third the way things are going at this moment in time but Lauren Shankland and Gary will probably have a better idea than me. Every, every passing week, he's closer to returning and boy, have they missed him.

45:57Chris Sutton:You know, he's a brilliant finisher. I know they've got Cammy Devlin, the midfielder to come back as well, but I look at Hart's fixtures and I think, I still think, and I said this, I think about a month ago on here, I still think Hart's will win it. I still think Hart's are favourites, but the beauty of it is, is every weekend now, It'll be like this last weekend. And after the split, I mean, that could just be absolute carnage. I mean, it really could because everybody is capable of beating anybody else.

46:26Theo Walcott:Let's bring in former Hearts Captain Gary Locke rather than just reading out fixture lists for the next 10 minutes. And do you think, Gary, that that felt like a pivotal weekend because after what happened the previous week at Ibrox, I think a lot of people, and maybe to use Chris's phrase, from down south, thought, uh-oh, here we go. Maybe this is when the old firm starts to ratchet up and Hartscare be under pressure. And the opposite has happened.

46:55Mark Chapman:Yeah, listen, I'm quite happy with everybody saying that. You know, we've been written off most of the season. And as I say, I certainly didn't see Rangers dropping points at Livingston. I didn't see our biggest rivals, Hibs, doing us a favour either. so it was a good weekend for us obviously we can only take care of ourselves we won the day before putting a wee bit pressure on them and as I say the other results you know they went really well for us yesterday so long may that continue but as Chris touched on there it's great for the Scottish game we've now got ourselves challenging at the top end of the table and it's just refreshing that it's not just Celtic that are running away with the league this year which is great for everybody.

47:36Rory Smith:Gary were you a bit worried when they brought back Martin O 'Neill and just felt, oh this is someone who's obviously course got the history in winning this and being in this situation before, was that a worry for you when he came back to the club thinking they're going to dominate?

47:49Mark Chapman:I think it would have been a worry for both ourselves and Rangers, you know Martin and Chris will be able to tell you better than me but he's a fantastic manager and he gets the best out of players you know, he's got that magic touch in terms of Celtic get a lot of last minute winners and that's not a fluke for me. They keep going right to the very end. So it was a wee bit of a worry when he went back there because obviously he was undefeated when he went in earlier on in the season. And I was very surprised that Celtic let him go. I think they'd probably be in a far better position now if they'd kept him as a manager for most of the season.

48:22Mark Chapman:But it was great for us, the fact that they had so much unrest and so many bad results. And it's maybe going to prove costly for them moving forward. When you look at the team, when you look at Hearts, How do you see them coping with the pressure of, did you imagine that the closer they get to the end of the season still being top, the more it becomes real that they might, you know, it's possible that they do this. Do you see them coping with that pressure? Do you think it's starting to take its toll? There's been quite a lot of 1-0 wins. Yeah, I think there has been a bit of nervousness about the stadium, but I think we're in the same position.

48:55Mark Chapman:I think if you look at the Rangers squad, you know, there's no many of their players have won league titles up in Scotland, I think. So we're all in the same boat. it's new for us obviously we're delighted to be up there because this time last year we were fighting relegation which we should never be in that position but we were so I think everybody's just enjoying it we're all on a bit of a rollercoaster but I think we've got enough quality in the changing room that'll be able to handle the running I think we've got a fantastic manager who will keep the boys very much grounded I think we're all in good spirits at the moment and the boys are really looking forward to the running.

49:34Chris Sutton:Gary, I mean, is there, I don't want this to sound bad, but is there an element of paranoia about Hearts and this people think you're going to fall away? Because I've not been one of those really. And if you look at, I mentioned just before you came on, if you look at Celtic and Rangers, they'll drop points as well. I'm not saying Hearts will go and win the next 10 games. They just won't. That's not going to happen. But there's nothing really to suggest that this Celtic team are suddenly going to flick a switch and go and win 10 games on the bounce. That absolutely is not going to happen. So that must give the hearts plenty of confidence as well.

50:16Mark Chapman:Yeah, I think you're absolutely spot on. I think there's still a lot of twists and turns to go. But I think, and you'll probably agree with me, I think it's the first time in a long, long time where you're looking at both the old firm and you're saying, you know, potentially they will get beat with a Motherwell or a St Mirren, which doesn't really happen. It's never really happened in the past. And you're right. I think there is a lot of points to be won and lost in the next six, seven games. So it's just really important for us that we win as many of these games before the split. And if we can do that, we're going to put ourselves in a great position when we go into the split.

50:53Mark Chapman:And I heard you talking earlier, you touched on that. I think the league's going to have a big problem because you know yourself, Chris, if we finish in the top six and it finishes like how it's finishing at the moment, I don't know how they're going to work the fixtures out because you might end up playing one team three times at home and only playing away from home once. So it's probably the first time in a long time where the home games have got to be crucial this year.

51:18Theo Walcott:Do you know what, Gary? We touched on that a few weeks ago in the sense of because of how it has panned out over recent years, since they've done the split, they've never had to worry how fair it's been because whoever's winning the title has been miles clear. So it hasn't made a massive difference. Whereas now they've got a serious competitive three-way title race and they need to make it as fair as they possibly can. But I don't know how you do that.

51:47Mark Chapman:Yeah, well, it's a huge problem because, you know, if it does go down to the wire and it finishes how the league is at the moment, We would be due to go to Easter Road, we'd be due to go to Parkhead, we'd also be due to go to Motherwell. And, you know, I don't think the fixtures will work out like that. I think maybe Motherwell might have to come to Tincastle three times. So it's a big problem for them because I think it will go down to the wire. I think the three years, and Motherwell as well, if they win their game in hand, you know, they're only seven points behind. So, you know, we could have a big problem on our hands, but lucky enough, it's no me that has to make that decision.

52:23Mark Chapman:but they're going to have to get their heads together because I think a lot of clubs will be very unhappy if they didn't get the home games that they should be getting.

52:30Theo Walcott:Gary, thank you very much for being on. Talk to you soon. Gary Lott with us on the Monday Night Club. Motherwell are at home to Dundee United on Saturday and Hearts are at home to Aberdeen. So they could both, Chris, either extend the lead or close the gap before the old firm on Sunday.

52:47Chris Sutton:Yeah, and who knows what's going to happen on Sunday. I mean, that's going to be absolute bedlam. The split thing is really interesting. Are you there, Ross? Are you allowed in again? Yeah, we're all friends again. Maybe one more game and then we'll see. But the split thing is brilliant because, you know, as Gary explained, there'll be an imbalance somewhere and there will be loads of conspiracy theories going around.

53:19Theo Walcott:Of course there will.

53:20Chris Sutton:When those fixtures are announced, you know, somebody will be getting done in.

53:28Mark Chapman:Presumably the last old firm of the season is fixed in already, though, surely. They'll know where the last old firm is.

53:34Chris Sutton:Yeah, well, you never know, Rory. Of course it is, yeah.

53:39Mark Chapman:Presumably what they... That's presumably the only thing they really worry about with the split is making sure that they've got the old firms sort of set up and then they go. Chris, what is it you like so much about Motherwell?

53:51Chris Sutton:Well, I think when you look at them as a club, their budget, the way that they are coached, the way that they play, they are the best footballing team in Scotland. I mean, he has them playing. It's all about using the extra man and picking that right pass. And they are so good and so aware as players. And you look at their team, and without being disrespectful, they're sort of waifs and strays, a team who are cobbled together. That is slightly disrespectful, actually. It is, yeah. But the way that they play and the confidence they have and the way they have torn Celtic apart this season, And 10 men against Rangers, they were the better team.

54:38Chris Sutton:They went to Ibrox and lost narrowly 1-0 when they were the better team at Ibrox. And it's just the purity of their football. And I think it's a brilliant story. And it's a real testament to their manager that he's gone and he coaches them so well. And he's got them playing in this particular style. At the weekend, they beat St Mirren, who are struggling this season. They won the League Cup, though. They beat them 5-0 on their own patch. And some of the football is just scintillating. And in fairness, some of the pitchers in Scotland at this moment in time, because of the weather which are cutting up, he insists that they play this way.

55:12Chris Sutton:And the players are brought into it.

55:15Theo Walcott:And it's a great, great story. The stats as well for Motherwell, Rory, they're unbeaten in eight in the league. They've only conceded three goals in their past 15, and they've lost once in 19. If they were based in Sweden or Paraguay, you'd be straight there doing a... That sounds very dismissive. doing one of your articles, wouldn't you?

55:37Mark Chapman:Our budgets don't stretch the Paraguay, Jack, I'm going to assure you.

55:40Theo Walcott:No, don't worry. Sweden or Bulgaria or... Yeah, 100%. What's wrong with Motherwell?

55:48Mark Chapman:Nothing at all, Chris. This is very self-indulgent. I think Hearts potentially are the best story in Europe this season. If they win the Scottish Premiership, that is... I'm not sure there's another story that would have the same kind of historic... FC Toon is quite a good story. FC Toon is remarkable. They only came up this year. But yeah, that is a great story. Hearts maybe has a little bit more resonance just because of the dominance of the Glasgow 2. The problem Motherwell have got from a journalistic point of view, as someone who goes out and loves a lovely romantic story, is that Hearts are there.

56:15Mark Chapman:I think if Hearts weren't top, Motherwell would have got more attention. But I've written all of this down, Chris, so give me a week or two and I'll make sure that I can remedy that. Oh, great.

56:25Chris Sutton:You can get the train as well, you get the train to Motherwell. I heard you moaning about the price of train tickets before we came on. Oh, don't let me started.

56:32Theo Walcott:Thanks to Chris, Theo and Rory That's it for this week's Monday Night Club Next episode of the Football Daily We'll be with Kelly And it's the Champions League Deep

56:47Mark Chapman:I'm Rich Hall And this is Sports Strangest Crimes Presents Confessions of a Super Bowl Streaker

56:53Gary Locke:When people ask me what I do I say to them, well, by day or by night

56:57Mark Chapman:The story of one man's mission To conquer the Holy Grail of streaking the Super Bowl. Mark Roberts is too lively for this body. He's just like the entertainer. Mark pushes the boundaries of what is socially acceptable. No chance, Texas. It's really strict, but then the moral thought was about it. The moral thought, hang on. What are you about? Sports Strangers Crimes presents Confessions of a Super Bowl Streaker. Listen on BBC Sounds.

57:30Gary Locke:This is not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline for the show?

57:35Mark Chapman:From the BBC, this is The Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.

57:43Theo Walcott:This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews.

57:47Mark Chapman:It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.