TCV: Awkward interviews, Anthony Gordon & barn doors

14:58Ian Dennis:That is very funny. Very funny. Very funny. Yeah, that did make me laugh. There's been a few of those over the years, haven't there? Yeah. When people have been caught up thinking they weren't their fader, they weren't on air, and they were on air.

15:16Ali Bruce-Ball:There's a classic. Some more broadcastable than others. Well, I was just going to say the Russell Fuller, Tim Peach one is the absolute classic, isn't it? Where Russell isn't that impressed by the production that's gone on and makes his point. Once before that and the entire match, that's clearly not good enough. Andy Murray talking to Russell Fuller. Danny Mills, Pablo Zabaleta has just said he doesn't understand why he was sent off this evening. That was just s*** production, Tim. Well, we just heard Russell Fuller there. I apologise for that. Let's go to Danny Mills, Danny. That's funny, that one.

15:56Ali Bruce-Ball:Right, and just before we get to the international football, we've mentioned it, actually, haven't we, about the handshakes in the England camp this week. But Kenneth in Glasgow threw down the gauntlet.

16:07Ian Dennis:Kenneth in Glasgow, just for the record, just in case Hare Chapman is listening, we do accept that Kenneth in Glasgow has been mentioned. His correspondence has been mentioned before. So we're going to put that on the record.

16:17Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah, he threw the gauntlet down last week on the handshake, hand-class debacle that we've been discussing. He mentioned how dapping up is now the popular term for the clasp these days, challenged us to get that into one of our commentaries. So step up the BBC's football correspondent, John Murray.

16:34Ian Dennis:I must mention Kenneth in Glasgow, who got in touch with us on the Commentator's View podcast about this current trend to clasp hands rather than shake hands. And we saw that before the match. And I said I would mention, because his son says it's called dapping up. Oh, is that right? So we have a dapping up ceremony when they're clasped hands before the match. So there we are, Kenneth. Thank you, Kenneth. Thank you, Kenneth. Especially for you. Nottingham Forest, nil. Coventry City, nil. Dion Dublin on board with that.

17:05John Murray:A little disappointed you didn't do that with Rio and Gamora.

17:09Ian Dennis:You know, often to dapp him up. Yeah, yeah. If I'd thought about it, I might have done. Incidentally, and I did mention this during the commentary in the first half at the city ground, which is part of the reason why I didn't hear you, Ian, because I was making my way to the city ground last Saturday afternoon. And I actually walked round the ground and I went somewhere I'd never been before. So I walked round the other side of the city ground, other side of the Brian Clough stand. And I saw a little path and I thought, where's that going? So I went down this path, like quite overgrown. and that is alongside the old Grantham Canal and it is right next to the city ground.

17:48Ian Dennis:So you walk along the canal, which is now overgrown. That section of the Grantham Canal is overgrown. So I think it originally flowed down into the Trent. But the Brian Clough stand, you can see it from the toll path and it feels like, by the canal, it feels like you're a million miles away from anywhere. It feels like you're in the middle of the countryside. In fact, you're right next to the city ground. So a new part of Nottingham that I discovered last weekend.

18:14Ali Bruce-Ball:My favourite line from your commentary, I think it was first half, John, was Oliver Glasner's winter collection. I'm looking forward to that. It's early yet, but too early for the winter collection. And you also got onto county halls under the hammer with Dion, didn't you? The county hall that you parked at that needed a bit of renovation. It was very good.

18:37Ian Dennis:Fair to say it wasn't the best of first halves, but produced quite a story with Coventry getting their first win in the Premier League for a quarter of a century.

18:47Ali Bruce-Ball:Worth making the point as well as we often do, you know, if you want to listen to any of these commentaries again or that moment that Coventry scored that goal, first goal of the season in the Premier League, BBC Sounds app, stations and schedules, get there, go back and find the day and you can do exactly that.

19:03Ian Dennis:And also, that was an incredible goal really. when you consider, I think it was his 127th match, and he finally scored his first goal, Jada Silva, for Coventry City. The way that he took it was incredible. You know, the control and then the finish. You'd think he did it every week.

19:18Ali Bruce-Ball:Right, this is how your weekend looks on Five Live this weekend. So this podcast comes out Thursday. We're recording this Thursday morning. So Thursday night, if you're listening to this ahead of a 7.45 kickoff, We have got Portugal-Wales commentary in the Nations League. Friday, Northern Ireland in Nations League action. They kick off at five. Updates of that on Five Live. Scotland in action away to Slovenia on Saturday at two o 'clock. So updates of that into Five Live sports. Saturday, 7.45. We'll be talking about this game in a minute. England-Spain at Wembley. John and Ian both on commentary duty with Paul Robinson and Matt Upson.

20:00Ali Bruce-Ball:massive game in the WSL on Sunday at 4.30. Chelsea and Arsenal both won in the Champions League this week. They go head-to-head in the WSL. So Vicky Sparks and Frank Kirby, there we go, is on duty again. So definitely have a listen to that. And 5 o 'clock Sunday into that commentary in the WSL, updates of Denmark-Wales. So why don't we have a listen to Anthony Gordon and then we'll chat England-Spain with John and Ian here. So it's England against the world and European champions on Saturday. Anthony Gordon speaking ahead of this game. He was taken off in the semi-final against Argentina in the World Cup as England went to a back five to defend their lead.

20:41Ali Bruce-Ball:It invited the pressure, of course, before Argentina got their two late goals. And Gordon says he was surprised to be taken off. Yeah, I was, being totally honest, only because I'd just scored. So I'm the type of player that I've said before, I'm really good when I play off adrenaline. and when I score, I normally don't have many bad games because I get into an untouchable mode of confidence. It makes me feel on top of the world, especially in that moment, on that stage. I felt really good. But as a winger, to be honest, I come off most games. It's normal. It's usually the position that is targeted first for substitutions because the players on the bench in your position are usually quick and usually really good as well.

21:26So managers feel that when you're getting a bit tired, you can add them fresh legs and they can really go. Obviously, that substitution was different, but it makes a lot of sense to me why the manager would then, you know, go more safe and more defensive and really tune into what got us through the previous two rounds in that moment. It might not to other people, but it does to me being a part of the group. I felt like as players, we could have done more. For me, we had the best team. We had the best players on the pitch in that semifinal. And in the last 20 minutes, we didn't play the best football.

21:55that's something a manager can't really affect from the sideline so I think as a group everyone together should take responsibility we shouldn't try and blame one man who's obviously trying his best to win the game and win the cup for us all

22:10Ian Dennis:But when you compare the England squad with Spain, France what they've achieved what they've done there doesn't seem to be a great deal of difference and England have got a coach who's won the champions league yeah so that it shouldn't be that far a leap should it well it's not it's not because we got to the semi-final against the reigning world champions in which we should have won we can say in my opinion we were the far better team for 60 minutes okay things took a turn and we didn't win but that that is football football is not perfect football doesn't mean you can be the better team for 60 minutes you can score and you're always going to win There are times when Spain will have been winning 1-0 and lost the game.

22:59It's not an English thing. Just in the moment we lost the game. I don't think there is a big leap. I felt so confident. I felt like if we would have got to the final, I would have felt so confident to play in Spain, that we would come out victorious. But we just didn't get there, so we'll never know. Do you think it is not a coincidence

23:20Ian Dennis:that two best performers at that World Cup played for Bayern Munich and Real Madrid? No, I think all the best players play for the best teams in the world and there's never a coincidence with that. If it was that easy, then everyone else would do it. So, no, not surprising. There are two players who are at the very top of the game. I obviously watch every one of Jude's games now, hoping they lose, but he has had a tremendous start to the season. Like I said, I watch all of his games so I watch him quite closely and as an individual he's started really, really well.

23:58Ali Bruce-Ball:So that's Barcelona's Anthony Gordon. He's a straight talker, John, in terms of dealing with him as the media, someone you want to talk to. You're going to get answers to your questions.

24:08Ian Dennis:Yeah, I think he's really developed in that sense over the last couple of years and taken on a new standing which I guess is the standing of a player who would play for Barcelona. so he's quite the go-to guy now in terms of that sort of issue you know why was it what happened to England in that last half hour against Argentina happened and and this widely discussed debate was it down to the manager or was it down to the players so he's made it very clear there that he thinks it's a it's a shared thing it's not just down to Thomas Tuchel the players have to take their part of the blame. And also, I think the point of my question, my second question there was, do England, the national team, actually have a disadvantage because they play Premier League football when it comes to the tournaments?

25:03Ian Dennis:Is there something there? And I think it is true, and this was touched on by Anthony Gordon as well. There is definitely something in what happened there against Argentina, in my opinion, that came from the fact that they put in such a massive effort against Mexico at altitude, then a few days later played in the sweltering heat of Miami. And when it came to it in that last half hour against Argentina, they weren't able to change the narrative, change the game, despite, as Anthony Gordon said, he felt they had the best players on the pitch.

25:35Ali Bruce-Ball:I think I'm right in saying as well, Ian, he touched on the theme, or was asked about the theme of possession of the football, controlling games, comparing it to the likes of Spain. That's an age-old debate about the England national team, isn't it? But we're here again, particularly as they're playing Spain this weekend.

25:54John Murray:But he was also saying, though, that in Spain, he's seen how that control is part of their DNA. And he was actually saying that, I'm not too sure that we'll ever get to that level with the English game. but he was also saying that the English game has its other strengths, its other attributes and maybe we should just stick to that, what we're good at.

26:14Ali Bruce-Ball:How long will it be before we the media, England football fans, stop talking about the last half hour against Argentina? Let's say England beat Spain this weekend and play really well. That's not going to go away that last half hour, is it? Because it came in the biggest game of all when it really mattered. We're going to constantly come back to that half hour, aren't we? Whatever happens in the next four.

26:34Ian Dennis:Until a point comes where England lift a trophy. And that's why the Nations League is highly significant for Thomas Tuchel and for England. And also in this very first match against the world champions at Wembley, so Spain's first match after winning the World Cup and England coming off the back of, as Thomas Tuchel said correctly last week, an unfulfilled experience. If England want to win this group and therefore reach the finals of the Nations League, the likelihood is they will have to win this match against Spain on Saturday. So it's a really big one.

27:09Ali Bruce-Ball:It's a 7.45 commentary on Five Live and BBC Sounds. There have been a few withdrawals, Ian, from the England squad. So Declan Rice not involved, Cobby Mainu, Cole Palmer, Marcus Rashford, call-ups in James Garner and Morgan Gibbs-White. In terms of an England team that we're going to see, any inkling as yet? Are we going to see Trent Alexander-Arnold, do you think? Do you think Alex Scott might get a go in Central Madrid?

27:34John Murray:midfield not for this spain game i think he'll he'll stick to the tried and trusted players that served him well in at the world cup now obviously there's there's no declan rice who's straight away springs out in the in the center of midfield for that but he could play jude bellingham in that position and then play rogers a little bit higher up it'll be interesting to see and bukayo saka said to me that when referring to that chaotic game against france in miami the third fourth place playoff he said the pressure was off but england embraced the chaos in that game they just thought oh let's let's just play football last game of the world cup let's just go and enjoy it the pressure now is back on so let's see what approach they take for this game against spain

28:15Ian Dennis:but with liver mental pulling out and obviously england have lost a string of right backs reese james ben white uh on the injured list jed spencer's well injured and so now trent alexander arnold really is what you would consider to be the first choice right back in the squad. What would be a very interesting selection is if Jarrell Kwanzaa's in the squad, has played at right back for England. If he were to play Jarrell Kwanzaa as the right back ahead of Trent Alexander-Arnold, but I think the likelihood would probably be Alexander-Arnold, but we'll see.

28:50Ali Bruce-Ball:Okay. Watch this team sheet. Clash of the commentators on the way. We've got an unintended pub name this week and the great glossary of football commentary. Emails into tcv at bbc.co.uk and it's 08000 289 369 for your messages and voice notes. So before Clash of the Commentators, a couple of good questions are coming here actually this week. Ashley in North Herefordshire asks, after John's recent Azteca experience at the World Cup, I wonder which England game comes to mind to you three as the most memorable live match you've seen. So watching England live. I mean, from what you said, John, about that experience, it's that one, isn't it, for you?

29:35John Murray:That will take some beating. The two that spring to my mind from a commentary point of view are beating Germany in Berlin by three goals to two. And also winning away in Spain in Seville. I think it was the home of Real Betis.

29:50Ian Dennis:Yeah, that was an amazing match.

29:53John Murray:Yeah, where England really did put Spain to the sword in a terrific first-half performance in particular. I think the one thing I remember about that is Eric Dier's challenge very early on, which I think was the catalyst to set the tone for the night on Sergio Ramos.

30:08Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah, that was irresistible. Sterling, Rashford, Kane, front three, wasn't it? I remember they were electric that night. So here's a question for you, John. I've commentated on England once for Five Live alongside you can you remember can you remember so it's the only time I think it's the only time I've ever seen England live because I'm not sure I've ever seen them live when I've not been working so I mean you'll never get this you'll never get this

30:40Ian Dennis:was it not at Wembley

30:42Ali Bruce-Ball:it was at Wembley it was at Wembley I'm not going to get this No, you've got no chance. You've got no chance. So August 2013, you and I commentated on England against Scotland. England beat Scotland 3-2. James Morrison scored early for Scotland. I remember that. But also, here's another one. Can you remember who scored England's winner against Scotland? Came off the bench. Oh, Dedo's there. Was it Ricky Lambert? Ricky Lambert. Ricky Lambert scored the winner. That would be my most memorable live experience in England, because it's my only one.

31:20Ian Dennis:Was that where I referenced him working in a beetroot factory?

31:24Ali Bruce-Ball:Yes, it was. It was. It was exactly that, yeah. That's right, wasn't it? A beetroot factory?

31:30Ian Dennis:Yeah, yeah.

31:30Ali Bruce-Ball:I think so, something like that, yeah. Roy Hodgson in charge of England. Beetroot was involved. Gordon Strachan in charge of Scotland. Here's your other question before Clash of the Commentators. This is a good one, too. I don't know if you've seen this in the script. This comes from Bournemouth supporter Graham, who says uh hi guys excellent show as always got a question here for you all have you have you ever interviewed someone and realized halfway through they aren't the person that you thought they were you've confused them with someone else and you've had to change tack very quickly keep up the good work now i think there's variations on that question because i've certainly been in an instance where a sports person's been put in front of me and I'm thinking right who's this and I've got to interview them and I think the way around that is you can very cheekily say just just for the levels just for the recording could you just say your name into the uh into the microphone here and then and then away you go have you found yourself in in that scenario I have I remember

32:34Ian Dennis:doing a match for match of the day and it was a Leicester City match and I was doing the interviews post-match and normally they'll say to you, we're bringing in whoever. On this occasion, they didn't. I turned around and here's a man standing in front of me in a Leicester City shirt and I'm thinking, I'm not 100 % sure who you are. And I had to start doing this interview with him And during the course of the interview, I was able to clock and work out that it was Andy King. So if Andy's listening, I apologise for not immediately recognising you, Andy. Has it happened to you, Ali?

33:18Ali Bruce-Ball:Not like that. I can tell, I mean, a really embarrassing story for me, and I still feel bad about this to this day, was the first Masters I ever covered. And in those days, John will remember this, we used to walk up to that famous famous clubhouse big oak tree and there was a there was a roped off area and all the golfers had wandered through and you just interview everyone willy-nilly it's much harder to do that nowadays it's become much more sort of sanitized and controlled but if you could see someone and get two minutes with them you'd have a chat with them and we'd often look we'd obviously look for the for the british golfers that were playing in the tournament that year and there was a chap called Stuart, I must get this right this time, Stuart Wilson, who'd won the Amateur Championship in 2004, which qualified him for the Masters, which obviously would have been the biggest thing in his career at that point.

34:09Ali Bruce-Ball:And so I went to go and find him. I had Andrew Cotter alongside me, who was very helpful because he was able to point him out because obviously they're not wearing name badges and I wouldn't necessarily recognise Stuart Wilson. And then for whatever reason, I got a different surname in my head and I tried to start the interview in a sort of clever fashion and really paid for it and I said to him something like so you know so when when Stuart Drummond was a young seven-year-old boy chipping balls in the back garden did he ever think he'd be at Augusta National and he said I've got no idea what Stuart Drummond was thinking as a seven-year-old but I can tell you what Stuart Wilson was thinking I was like oh and Cotter was standing two yards And he was laughing his socks off.

34:53Ali Bruce-Ball:It was a disaster. Absolute disaster.

34:58John Murray:You, Denno? I don't think I have. What I have done, though, is where I've interviewed Emmanuel Pogatetz after Austria played Northern Ireland. And I knew I was speaking to Emmanuel Pogatetz, but I didn't realise that he'd been sent off during the game. So when we were talking...

35:14Ian Dennis:How did you not realise that?

35:16John Murray:Well, I just missed it. Right. So what I'd done, I'd filed my report. Austria beat Northern Ireland. I think Northern Ireland had a player sent off as well. And I left the report, dashed, because the commentary must have still been going on, dashed down to the tunnel, caught Emmanuel Pogatetz. Emmanuel, two minutes. He shows me this gash on his shin. And I could not believe it. He said, and the referee sent me off as well. And I went, sorry? I said, you were sent off? Yes. He said, and I wasn't happy. So I said, so I wrapped up the interview very, very quickly. got the interview, ran back up to the commentary position.

35:52John Murray:I said, have you filed my full-time report yet? No, no, not yet. I said, well, don't. I said, I'll do it again. I said, I wasn't aware that Pogates had been sent off.

36:02Ali Bruce-Ball:That was famously Branislav Ivanovic, wasn't it, who found out he was suspended for the Champions League final, having picked up a yellow in a semi-final. He didn't realise in the TV interview. I said, well, such a shame about not making the final. His face just fell. Do you remember that? Yeah. Yes, I do. Yeah. Yeah.

36:21In the early 90s, women's tennis was having a moment. This is a match that will live in the memory of all of us forever. Steffi had been so dominant, suddenly along came Monica Sellers. She hit the bar big, she hit two hands off both sides. And just when tennis fans were licking their lips at the prospect of a rivalry that would push the sport to new heights, One of the strangest and most shocking sporting crimes brought it to a grinding halt.

36:49Ali Bruce-Ball:Monica Seles has been stabbed by a spectator. This man stole her story from her. Sports' strangest crimes. Tennis' darkest hour. Listen on BBC Sounds.

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38:04Ali Bruce-Ball:The Commentators' View on the Football Daily with Alistair Bruce Ball, John Murray and Ian Dennis.

38:12John Murray:Clash of the Commentators. Ah, let's go. My face last week was extremely happy because I got my first win of the season. Up and running on Czech players who have played in the Premier League, although Jonathan has sent us this. To my dear TCV team, I've been an Arsenal fan all my life, and it was therefore to my utter disgust that Thomas Rosicki was mentioned by neither Ian nor Alistair during last week's clash of the commentators. What really got to me, however, was that he wasn't even mentioned by John during the debrief. All this dismay was compounded by Ian's checkmate pun at the end. So my question to you is, did he do something wrong?

38:52Or was he just not the player that he seemed to me to be during my adolescent years?

38:56Ian Dennis:Well, of course, part of the problem with that was that virtually every player you mentioned had check in their name in some way, and he doesn't. And also, I think in the roundup, I think, Ali, you said to me, who's the most obscure name on the list, which obviously was not Thomas Rositsky. Oh, so that's the explanation, Jonathan? So you're blaming on Ali now. He was a fabulous player.

39:23Ali Bruce-Ball:Like Anthony Gordon.

39:25Ian Dennis:I'm sharing it around.

39:29Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah. No, I agree with Jonathan, though. That's a massive miss, not to say Rosicki, because he was a wonderful player to watch, wasn't he?

39:36John Murray:Well, apologies, Jonathan. Too late now. It is too late. Too late now, Ali. So Ali and John, who will go top of the table? Because after four games each, it's Ali two from three, It's John two from three, and I'm just one behind with the one win. So John and Ali will take turns to answer a question and give as many correct answers as they can in 30 seconds. But who's going first?

39:59Ali Bruce-Ball:I'm going to put my hand up and say, can I go first, please, this week? Don't know why, John. Is that OK?

40:04John Murray:Yes. OK. Once again, I've got to put him at odds on favourite for this. The odds are stacked very much in his favour. Anyway, we're ready to go. Saturday night, 5 Live, 7.45 kickoff, England, Spain in the Nations League. It's the first time England have played Spain since the Euro 2024 final. I want you to tell me anything you can remember about that game. It could be players, goal scorers, the score, venue, kits, managers, you name it. I'll give you one point for each fact you get right. What? What can you remember from the England-Spain Euro 2024 final? Your time starts now.

40:45Ali Bruce-Ball:Well, Harry Kane must have captained England. Cole Palmer came off the bench and scored. He was played in the Olympic Stadium in Berlin. Jordan Pickford would have been England's goalkeeper. I mean, who else would have been in that England team? Rashford, Maguire. My mind's gone completely blank. Why didn't we say... This is hard. It's so random. I can't think he would have scored the Spanish goal either. I've had a nightmare there.

41:15John Murray:If ever he doesn't win a clash of the commentators, he will win that one. We'll try and wave and get him on. You back with us?

41:25Ian Dennis:Yep.

41:25John Murray:Are you happy?

41:27Ian Dennis:I'm happy if you're happy.

41:28John Murray:Yeah, the bookies have stopped taking bets.

41:31Ian Dennis:Okay.

41:32John Murray:Because you are the overwhelming favourite for this question.

41:36Ian Dennis:I always hate it when you say that. I mean... Last time you said that, I lost.

41:41John Murray:Yeah. Well, you shouldn't lose this one. You really shouldn't. So Saturday night, we've got England, Spain and the Nations League, commentary 745. It's the first time England have played Spain since the Euro 2024 final. I want you to tell me anything you can remember about the game. It could be players, goal scorers, the score, venue, kits, managers, you name it. I'll give you one point for each fact you get right. What can you remember from the England-Spain Euro 2024 final? Your time starts now.

42:09Ian Dennis:OK, well Cole Palmer scored for England which made him the and he was the youngest man I think to play for England in a final Oyazabar scored for Spain Nico Williams scored for Spain Mark Gay had a header at the end that was cleared off the line by Danny Olmo Jordan Pickford played for England Unai Simon played for Spain Rodri played, he went off at half time injured who else was playing for England, John Stones was playing for England, Harry Kane.

42:40John Murray:Questions, I think, have got to be asked. I mean, I raised this a couple of weeks ago about how the questions seem to be loaded in favour of the correspondent. And I don't know. I mean, I don't even have to know what the final score is there, but I know he's won. I know he's won. But ABB, there has got to be a stewards inquiry, surely.

42:59Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah, I mean, I'm kicking myself. I didn't say the score of the game or either of the two managers. So I'm a complete buffoon. for not doing that, but there we go. There we go. You should be pleased for me after all of the agonies

43:13Ian Dennis:I went through last season on this. So did I win?

43:17John Murray:Well, you did win, but I haven't got the full-time score yet.

43:21Ali Bruce-Ball:You'll win. You'll win. Well played, John. Top of the table. 11-5. 11-5. Yeah, five to Paul. That's a big win.

43:31John Murray:Rashford and Maguire didn't play.

43:34Ali Bruce-Ball:No, I was just lobbing names out. I just couldn't picture anyone on the pitch other than Kane, Palmer. Didn't say the managers. I said Pickford, I think. But, yeah, strange.

43:44John Murray:Producer Gary hasn't called me, but he has messaged me because he's actually next to me. That Pogates, of course, is assistant head coach at Forest under Glasner.

43:54Ian Dennis:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is where I was last week. Yeah, yeah.

43:58Ali Bruce-Ball:Very good. Very good. Right. Right, so that means John goes to three from four. I'm two from four. Dano's one from four in Clash of the Commentators. That's me on back-to-back defeats. So there we go. Right, next up, unintended pub name. So this is our unintended pub name of the week. This featured this season. There is only one has to be top-top to get in here. This week it comes from Michael in Julian, California. And this is from John's commentary of Nottingham Forest Coventry alongside Dion Dublin. Unintended Pug Name of the Week. And Ndoy just finds himself edge of the D. Just couldn't curl it in that top corner.

44:47He was looking, to be fair, Mushrith was looking over his left shoulder thinking, I hope that goes over.

44:51Ian Dennis:And it did. It was probably only a foot over the postage stamp corner. of the Coventry City goal. Unintended Pub Name of the Week.

45:04Ali Bruce-Ball:So Michael says, John might just have given us TCV's first unintended pub name forward slash great glossary combo. The postage stamp would be a tiny pub the size of the six yard box with the walls covered by Panini stickers through the ages and miniature trophies from around the world. The postage stamp. Not to be confused with Troon's famous par three, the postage stamp? Because you might go in there, John, and expect something entirely different from that pub.

45:32Ian Dennis:Yes, you could see that. You could see the postage stamp as a pub.

45:36Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah.

45:37Ian Dennis:Smallest pub you've been in?

45:39Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah, it's a good question that, John. So the one that springs to mind for me is, and it's bigger now, they've extended it, but it used to do an outrageous trade. When I was a student in Bristol, there's a pub called the Coronation Tap in Clifton Village that served exhibition cider in half pints because it was so super strong. You couldn't drink more than a half. And as a student in those days, you could take 10 pounds out with you and that was more than enough to see you fairly merry for an evening. But honestly, it was a scrum to try and get served. It was a tiny little cupboard, the Coronation.

46:15Ali Bruce-Ball:The Corrie Tap, the Corrie Tap, as it was called. It's now expanded and is bigger. But that would be my memory. of trying to get to the bar in there was ridiculous.

46:24Ian Dennis:I feel like I've been in a lot of very small pubs in various places. And one that does come to mind is in Morningside in Edinburgh, there is a very, very small pub there and I can't remember the name of it. And actually on pub names, now you mention it, it just came to mind when I was driving to St George's Park this week, I noticed, you know, on the screen you have in your car with the sat-nav on it, I noticed that I drove down the A1 and suddenly it came up on the screen that I was passing a pub called the Arabian Horse. What an unusual name for a pub.

47:06Ali Bruce-Ball:They're now the smallest pub?

47:08John Murray:Crown Posada in Newcastle. That's one of the smallest bars I've been in.

47:14Ali Bruce-Ball:There's a famous pub, famous old pub in Salisbury, where I live called the haunch of venison that has a front sort of cubby hole so when you walk into the pub there's a little room you can shut the door on it and it's it's benches all the way around a small table and every Christmas we try and get as many you know try and break the record for as many people as you can possibly get into that little space or having a drink in there it's also the pub where uh displayed on the wall uh is the the hand haunch of venison of the haunch of it's not a haunch of venison john it's a it's a it's the hand of someone who had their hand chopped off uh because they tried to cheat at gambling in that pub and it's it's displayed in a you know the actual hand well it purports to be the actual hand yes yeah you can't touch that's Incredible.

48:09Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

48:10Ian Dennis:That is absolutely incredible.

48:12Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah, so tried to play fast and loose in gambling, stuck his hand out to take his winnings, and down came the old butcher's cleaver, chopped it off, and they, you know, yeah.

48:21Ian Dennis:Yet the pub is called the Haunch of Venison. Haunch of Venison, yeah. So there's no Haunch of Venison on display, but there is a severed hand.

48:28Ali Bruce-Ball:I don't think so. There's a severed hand, yeah, exactly. It should be the severed hand. It should be. It should be, but it's not. It's the Haunch of Venison. So next time you're in town, John, I'll show you.

48:40Ian Dennis:I'm looking forward to that already. That's gone straight to the top of the list.

48:45Ali Bruce-Ball:Okay. Let's get on to the great glossary of football commentary as we build a collection of commentary terms and phrases. Division 1 for football exclusive terms. Division 2 for terms used across various sports. Last week we added both into Division 1, in fact, needs one to go in off their backside in terms of a striker going through a goal drought. and taking the match ball home. But Tom in North Hans has sent us a voice note. Hi all. I've just been listening to the latest pod and need to oppose the decision to allow taking home the match ball into Division 1 of the Great Glossary. Surely this would apply to a bowler taking a five-wicket haul in a test innings where they get to show the crowd the ball and I'm assuming taking it home with them.

49:32Or half a ball in the case of Oli Robinson and Josh Tong after recently taking five wickets each against Pakistan, where the match ball was quite literally cut in half.

49:42Ali Bruce-Ball:Therefore, this must be demoted to Division 2. I'm surprised we didn't think of that at the time. Why did we not say that?

49:49Ian Dennis:How did we not think of that? Yeah, I know. How did we not think of that? I don't know.

49:53Ali Bruce-Ball:Because it wasn't a hat-trick because it's five wickets, maybe?

49:56Ian Dennis:Maybe.

49:57Ali Bruce-Ball:But taking the match ball home is taking... Yeah.

49:59Ian Dennis:Yeah, that was a real oversight on our part. That was a worse oversight than not mentioning Thomas Rosicki.

50:06John Murray:I had a fleeting moment I was going to mention it but then it passed me because again it's not a hat trick is it?

50:12Ali Bruce-Ball:No.

50:12John Murray:The phrase was taking the match ball home.

50:15Ali Bruce-Ball:The match ball home. Did you see Brian Brobby with the match ball up his shirt which they quite often do but it's a new I mean I wonder how many strikers have scored a hat trick in the top flight and been on the losing side there's probably quite a few but he looked a little bit clump.

50:30Ian Dennis:Well it was said wasn't it? Was it? I'm trying to remember but it was said he was the first since...

50:37Ali Bruce-Ball:Oh, right. Who was it? I'm hearing, John, the fifth different player. I'm presuming that's in Premier League history, not in top flight history, is it? Yeah. The last one, John, was Roque Santa Cruz, 2007. There we go. So that's not happened for almost 20 years. You can't really celebrate it.

50:53Ian Dennis:Santa Cruz, wasn't he the son of a naval sea captain or something?

50:59Ali Bruce-Ball:Not a beetroot farmer. No. thank you thank you also to listeners Sam and Paul from London who both told us about the five wicket hall and made the point so yes that has to go into division two agreed Al in Toronto hello regarding hat tricks in the National Hockey League so we're talking ice hockey here obviously if a player scores a hat trick the hockey rink is festooned with hats thrown down by the spectators do you know that

51:28Ian Dennis:did not know that no fresh suggestion Matt in South London says, I will be so bold as to suggest this is a Division 1 entry straight off the bat. In Martin Fisher's commentary on the Manchester City versus Sunderland 5-3 on Sunday, he said this a couple of times regarding VAR decisions. Le Fay. Anderson gets it away. Le Fay felt it might have just brushed his arm there as he did so. Has been checked and cleared. And Matt says, it's been checked and cleared. I'd like to propose that since the institution of VAR, commentators increasingly use the phrase checked and cleared, a shorthand to explain to the viewer stroke listener that VAR has checked the validity of a goal or a penalty decision, etc, etc.

52:20Ian Dennis:This is surely unique to football, he says. Even other sports that have some kind of video review Don't use the phrase checked and cleared. Thanks for considering this suggestion. Well, thank you for sending it in, Matt. Checked and cleared. What?

52:36Ali Bruce-Ball:Is that? Yeah, I mean, suggestion checked and cleared. Cricket, you wouldn't say that for a third umpire or rugby for a TMO, would you? Checked and cleared. In that form, in that form of words. It's been checked and cleared. Cleared. You can stick with your original decision is one you'll always hear, won't you? Yeah, that's a good one. you can stick with your original decision.

53:02Ali Bruce-Ball:Checked and cleared. What do we think, Denno? Checked and cleared.

53:04John Murray:I'm a little bit reluctant to say because of what we've, with our oversight from last week, whether there is a glaring...

53:11Ian Dennis:Well, I think we should say it. I think we should say it and then let others disprove it. Okay. I also quite like, you're on screen now.

53:20Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah. From cricket. Yeah. Rocking and rolling. Rocking and rolling. Yeah. Right, slightly relieved West Ham fan Dan, this is from. When Mohamedou Kante got sent off during the barnstorming end to Millwall, West Ham, Five Live reporter Mike Williams said the following. You could argue Kante did the only thing he could do. He prevented a near certain goal, the Frenchman, who earlier dragged West Ham back into it by scoring their first here at the Den. He's now getting an early bath after only coming on at half-time as a substitute. So Dan says, I doubt stadiums have baths anymore. The dismissed player is more likely to be going for an early hydrotherapy pool.

54:00Ali Bruce-Ball:But going for an early bath is one of those phrases that perfectly sums up what is happening as the player trudges off the pitch and down the tunnel on their own. I would guess this one will be in Division 2. Would we say early bath in other sports?

54:13Ian Dennis:Yeah, definitely Division 2. In fact, I've got a feeling Eddie Waring might have been the commentator who started using the phrase early bath.

54:24Ali Bruce-Ball:Did he coin the phrase, John?

54:26Ian Dennis:I think he may have coined the phrase, unless, of course, someone knows differently.

54:32Ali Bruce-Ball:Get in touch, tcv at bbc.co.uk.

54:34John Murray:And staying on the EFL theme, Reading fan Mike has got in touch with something said on the latest episode of the 72 plus EFL podcast on BBC Sounds.

54:45Ian Dennis:Finn Azaz, for me, is a cut above. I don't know what Joe Bidnell think, but he has a football brain like very few players in the championship. Lovely touch, great vision, and I think he makes them tick. When he plays, they play. Laren's got seven in seven, and then he couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo on Saturday. We're excellent, unfortunately, because that cost him the points there.

55:06John Murray:Well, that's BBC Solent's Adam Blackmore speaking on the 72. which is on its own feed this season. So just search for 72 plus on BBC Sounds. Anyway, Mike says, Hi, gents. Last week's discussion around a misfiring striker needing one to go in off their backside led me towards this other potential Division I entry. Prior to the derriere-assisted effort, the lookless forward might have been described as being unable to hit a barn door with a banjo. I think what adds credence to this phrase is the fact that it can also be used and understood without the mention of the banjo at all, i.e. couldn't hit a barn door.

55:46John Murray:While this phrase is very much fitting at arenas such as the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium this season, the wider TCV listenership may be aware of its use in other sports, so I'd be interested to hear where you would place it.

56:00Ian Dennis:I think probably into Division I. What I'd love to know is, I remember hearing that phrase in my really early days, and I'd love to know where it is derived from. Yeah. Because it won't be sport, will it? It'll be something else.

56:18Ali Bruce-Ball:Could have come from the haunch of venison, John. I've got to say, that's got to be Division 2.

56:25John Murray:Division 2, because? Surely it's got to be another sport. Like?

56:30Ali Bruce-Ball:place kicker in rugby having a bad day couldn't hit a barn door darts couldn't hit a barn door I think they did too you'd like to think that you'd like to think of darts they would actually hit the

56:43Ian Dennis:board

56:47Ali Bruce-Ball:that's a very good point that's a very good point right so in summary the great glossary of football commentary taking the match ball home we are demoting to division 2 quite right I don't know what we were on last week with that one. Early Bath from Mike Williams at Millwall West Ham. That is going into Division 2. Couldn't hit a barn door. Ian and I have now relegated that to Division 2 in brackets potentially with a banjo. But going into Division 1 this week for now, checked and cleared.

57:25Ali Bruce-Ball:Hooray! Hooray indeed. By the way, John, I've just looked up on the hand because I just wanted to check. I don't want to get you down here under false pretenses. Apparently, it's a smoke-preserved mummified hand that is on that wall that I've seen there in the haunch of venison.

57:39John Murray:Okay. And Gary is very much hands-on because he's just sent me this. Roque Santa Cruz's father worked as a policeman in Asuncion in Paraguay. His father, Apriano Santa Cruz, is also his agent.

57:58Ian Dennis:where was the sea captain then

58:00John Murray:you're all at sea

58:01Ian Dennis:wasn't there a

58:03John Murray:that notion has been sunk if it's not him

58:10Ian Dennis:who is it I'm thinking of which footballer's father it's a South American footballer whose father or uncle was a sea captain

58:21Ali Bruce-Ball:I mean that sea captain really conjures up a vision of something quite grand and majestic and you know.

58:29John Murray:We might have a contributor from South America who could give us the answer.

58:33Ian Dennis:Who's never been in touch before.

58:35John Murray:Yeah.

58:35Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah, let's hope so. Let's hope so. We'll wait for the latest jibes from Hair Chapman on the Monday Night Club, but in the meantime, thank you very much for listening everyone. That is it for this episode of the Commentator's View. Questions and correspondence always welcome, as you know, from plenty of you all around the globe, anytime. TCV at BBC.co.uk or you can send us a message or a voice note on WhatsApp to 08000 289 369. And on the next episode of the Football Daily, they will be looking ahead to England against Spain. In League One, it's Barnsley 0, Leicester 1, Burton...

59:13John Murray:What's the point? What is the point? Sorry, he's talking about Villa trying to keep the ball. I'm just trying to give the scores, John. I mean, I thought that was the main part of my job. Yeah, that was very unprofessional.

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