The Commentators' View: Bellingham left out & commentary tattoos

11:29John Murray:And you might not necessarily have the individuals. It's all about the collective, isn't it?

11:35Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah. And exactly that. And look at that performance they put in in Belgrade. And I think, you know, quite often when this sort of thing happens, the names that dominate the headlines are the names of the players that are left out. and once again we forget the names of the players that were involved and played so well for England in Belgrade. And I always felt this was going to be the way with Thomas Tuchel. I'm sure you feel the same. That reputation wasn't going to matter. Who you played for, what you've done previously. It's what you do for Thomas Tuchel when you're on these training camps and when you play for England that will matter.

12:07Ali Bruce-Ball:I agree with John. I can't imagine that England will go to the World Cup without Jude Bellingham next summer if he has had enough football by then and he's fit and he doesn't get any injuries and whatever. But I really like the message. I really like the message, the manager being strong and rewarding those players who play well for him and try hard for him. And if you got left out having done that and someone else got parachuted in who's barely played, then you're going to get disaffected players on the other side. So I think it's a good call.

12:35Ian Dennis:Yeah, I mean, it's Thomas Tuchel from a position of authority after, by a distance, the best performance of his time as the England head coach. you know he is making it clear what he wants and what he expects from his england players you know he sees them sees the moment to do that and and it is quite easy for him to explain away the selection of this squad because it is continuity and the other thing in just linking it back to

13:02Ali Bruce-Ball:the writer cup i was really struck by bob mcintyre's interview after they won on the final day and he was talking about, you know, what makes that Ryder Cup team such a great team. And they repeat the same line every time. He goes at the door. They play in an individual sport all the time. He goes at the door and he said basically whatever Luke Donald asks us to do, you know, if he says jump, we say how high. That is what McIntyre said. That is what they all did. McIlroy, Rahm, Fleetwood, all these superstars. That's how it works.

13:34Ian Dennis:And at the same time, Thomas Tuchel asked himself during the time that we've been here at Wembley listening to him, he asked himself several questions and they were, are there players out there who deserve to be here? Yes. Is there a way back? 100%. Do I believe we are a stronger team with Jude Bellingham? Yes. So he asked himself those questions, answered those questions. So there are another series of messages there from him.

14:00John Murray:But he also gave a very clear message regarding Myles Lewis Skelly, where he obviously is not getting much game time in the Premier League in terms of starting games. And he said to be just a good citizen in camp will not be enough over the course of the year. You have to perform on a club level on a regular basis. And I think that the Arsenal youngster benefits from the fact, John, that the squad was only named or the last get together was only three and a half weeks ago.

14:27Ian Dennis:Yeah, and I can't remember an England squad. Maybe you're going to prove me wrong, but to have as few changes between two England squads. So it's three changes from the original squad that was named last month, but from the squad that finished it, just the one change, which is almost unheard of.

14:48John Murray:Who knows, the unfazed Tuchel could be an unintended pub name. As we move on to that and Bess Beards, emails to tcv at bbc.co.uk because facial fuzz has been a theme on recent episodes. Kat Downs set the tone with her impressive in-depth beard analysis last week. We mentioned, or you mentioned, Tyrell Hatton and John Rahm, and then Shane Lowry, of course, sink the putt to retain the cup. Yeah, it was a good week for beards, wasn't it? I guess it was. Mark in Aberdeen has also gone into great detail. Dear Ali, Ian and John, I have a couple of bearded footballer suggestions for you to consider. Supporting evidence is included, which he has.

15:32John Murray:Bearded one, a picture of Josko Gvardiol. This beard appears to be like dark moss on a tree trunk. Not too thick, but with a clear density. Reminiscent of a square of fire retardant office carpet, Gvardiol's beard gives him the look of the bearded action man from my youth. I don't think he has eagle eyes, though, doesn't he, Josko Gvardiol? Moving eyes. I didn't realize he's actually supplied the... Yes, it's there. Yeah. Now, I would have to say there that Mark from Aberdeen, that's an action man from the 70s. Well, without doubt. It's the action man adventurer.

16:09Ian Dennis:Right. Yeah. But that beard is remarkably similar to Josko Gavardi-All's.

16:16John Murray:Do you want to read out the evidence that he's provided for beard hashtag two?

16:20Ian Dennis:Yes, beard two from Mark is Graziano Pella, formerly of Southampton. A different style of beard, says Mark. Similar to Olivier Giroud, I think. Cultured, angular, almost musketeer standard, or perhaps more Dolce and Gabbana catwalk. Keep up the good work. Really enjoy the pod. Mark Aberdeen. I think that's quite a good compare and contrast between the two because I think, I don't know, I could be wrong about this, but it strikes me that Vardiole doesn't have to work too hard on that beard.

16:55Ali Bruce-Ball:That's just there. And he probably doesn't mess around with that too much. Just a little bit of trimming here and there. Graziano Pella. And you know the kind of beards we're talking about. There's a lot of craft and sculpting and time and energy that goes into making that look just so, I think. And we've got one more. Mike in Sevenoaks. At one point, this is a good shout from Mike, actually, Crystal Palace had both Joe Ledley and Mila Yedinac in their midfield. Now, surely that makes Palace the hairiest midfield in recent Premier League history. And actually, Mike's put a picture. There is a picture of the pair of them.

17:29Ali Bruce-Ball:And that's a great shout, actually. Hairy heads, hairy chins, lots of hair.

17:33Ian Dennis:That could be a great contrast to Everton's midfield of Lee Carsley and Thomas Graveson, which was the midfield with the least hair and the midfield with the most hair. And Mila Yedinak is an excellent beard.

17:49John Murray:Do you know what we should do in the build-up to children in need?

17:54Ian Dennis:I'm not liking the sound of this already.

17:57John Murray:We should see who could grow the blushiest beard between the three of us.

18:02Ian Dennis:Well, you told me recently, you said to me, I can't remember the last time I had a shave.

18:09John Murray:that's what you said to me recently i know and i actually nearly came a cropper when i was in istanbul this week oh because um as in istanbul uh do what the romans do i went for a turkey shave and before i knew it he he lathered me up on my chin and he went i give you baby face and i went yeah okay no problem and i'm used to i'm used to having a turkey shave at my local barber's anyway and all of a sudden it dawned on me what he was going to do he was going to take off my designer stubble. That's how I would describe it, not a beard. And I went, no, no, no, no. I said, just a trim. Otherwise, I would have been like a baby-faced assassin here today.

18:50Ian Dennis:Smooth as a baby's bottom. It could have done. That could be an unintended pub name. The unshaven Dennis.

19:00Ali Bruce-Ball:What I'd like to know as well is, possibly one for our friend Bill Edgar, is has that midfield come up against each other in Premier League history? So have Have Yedinac and Ledley come up against Graveson and Carsley? Has that happened? Because if it has, then we need to know.

19:16John Murray:This weekend, our offerings on Five Live. Arsenal-West Ham, Saturday, 3 o 'clock. I'll be joined by Andy Reid. The alternative is on Sports Extra. Manchester United against Sunderland. On Saturday, John, you're joined by Pat Nevin for Chelsea against Liverpool. That's the 5.30 kick-off. Small matter of. Small matter of, indeed. Newcastle against Nottingham Forest. is at two on Sunday. Ali's joined by Clinton Morrison. The pressure certainly intensifying on Ange Postacoglu already by the Forest supporters. Everton Palace is on Sports Extra at two. Villa Burnley is on the BBC website and app. And Wolves Brighton and Hove Albion, another two o 'clock kickoff, is also on the BBC Sport website and app.

20:01John Murray:And Brentford, Manchester City, where John will be joined by Mark Schwarzer, is at 4.30. Big one then, isn't it, for Ange?

20:09Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah, it's, I mean, that seems, he's had so little time, hasn't he, to actually work with those players and try to get things the way he wants them. And he's had Murillo out injured and, you know, various things to deal with. I just think, not just with Ange Postacoglu, if you come in as a manager and a certain section of the support right from the start decides, you know, we're not keen on this appointment, we're not going to give this fellow a chance, it then becomes immensely difficult because you always feel right from the start. I mean, I think of Russell Martin at Rangers in a similar position.

20:46Ali Bruce-Ball:Whatever he does now from this point in, it's not going to be enough. It's almost as if, you know, that section of fans are waiting for it to go wrong. And that makes it really, really difficult. And, you know, I think it's, well, obviously it's Newcastle on Sunday. After the international break, it's Chelsea. So there's two really difficult games. He's without a win in six, so that is not easy.

21:07John Murray:He's also the first permanent Forest manager for 100 years to fail to win any of his first six matches.

21:14Ian Dennis:But right at the outset, when he was appointed, virtually everyone said, is this a squad that has been assembled that can play football the way that Ange Postacoglu wants his team to play football? So should we necessarily expect him to have, you know, worked wonders in the first few matches?

21:39John Murray:Yeah, but I agree that once the supporters have turned, it's very, very hard to try and pull that and haul it back to try and get them back on side.

21:48Ali Bruce-Ball:And is the fact that they're not convinced by Posta Cogluv, is that all based on Tottenham's league form last season? because he did win a European trophy. The season before that, Tottenham went well in the league and he's had lots of success everywhere else he's been. So it does seem harsh to me.

22:05Ian Dennis:Now, Ian, tell us what you found when you made your first trip of the season to Selhurst Park last weekend.

22:12John Murray:Well, I've got to be honest with you. I knew it was there because Aaron Paul had sent me a message to say, have you seen what's in the press box, our commentary position at Selhurst Park? and Five Live, I think it's fair to say, has made its mark because there was a quote from one of my commentaries. It was actually from 2017 where Palace had beaten Chelsea and I said, every Crystal Palace fan has risen to their feet. I do not think there is a better atmosphere in the Premier League than Selhurst Park. So that quote is on one part of the wall as you walk down sort of like the press box and before you actually get to it, they've got your quote, John, from the FA Cup final, the whistle goes crystal palace have just won the fa cup they've beaten manchester city what a turn up this is what a moment for all of south london john murray bbc radio 5 live and the writing is in royal blue and red and you can't help but it's very striking as you so fair play to crystal palace it's a a lovely touch but then did you see one of the responses on social media when i put it on he's a chap called lewis who replied to my social media post he's got a tattoo John of all of your words at full time when Palace won the FA Cup it has the Wembley arch on it and then below it your minute-long speech down the back of his calf including what a moment for all of South London the scenes in the stands here the flags the celebrations I swear you can hear half

23:38Ian Dennis:of Wembley shaking right now I have to say I'm quite humbled by that I don't think that's ever happened before to my words from a commentary that somebody's had that tattooed on themselves so um it's on his left calf yeah yeah so lewis carey i uh i am genuinely touched by that has

24:01Ali Bruce-Ball:as he got um community shield commentary on the on the other calf

24:08Ian Dennis:well from the picture from lewis we can only see his left leg mind you the way that uh that

24:14John Murray:Oliver Glasner has got Palace playing at the minute on a club record run of 19 games undefeated. If he continues to, every time that Palace get a landmark victory, the Community Shield is now going to go on his right calf. You know, he could be covered in head to toe from tattoos all to do with Crystal Palace.

24:31Ian Dennis:Ian, has anyone, because as we speak now, I'm not still not long back from New York. And of course, Ali was there as well. You watched them win in the way that they did against the Champions last weekend. Has anyone seriously suggested that they might be capable of winning the Premier League this season?

24:50John Murray:They haven't yet, no.

24:52Ian Dennis:Should they be? Floating that?

24:56John Murray:Well, the worry would be, from a Crystal Palace point of view, is have they got the strength in depth? Yeah. However... And they are playing in the conference as well, of course. They were superb against Liverpool and I don't think anybody could have argued had they gone in at half-time either 4-0 or 5-0 up. They were that good. And they made Liverpool look ragged. And I would certainly think that the way they are playing, if they can keep everybody fit, they could easily qualify for the Champions League. I think that would be a more realistic target.

25:29Ian Dennis:But I mean, they're a good team. They've got good players, even though they've sold the players that they have. They've still got good players. They've made good additions. Oliver Glasner is clearly a very, very good coach. and I'm thinking back to when I saw them at the end of last season, what they did in the run-in, starting off that run, the way that they outwitted Aston Villa in the semi-final in the way that they did, the way that they outwitted Manchester City in the final, won the Community Shield against Liverpool, beaten them again in the league. Isn't that quite a strong body of evidence?

26:01John Murray:It is.

26:02Ian Dennis:It's got underlying feelings of you-know-what.

26:06John Murray:Yeah, but how many games are we in? I don't think we'd start talking of title. If they're still there come March, then you would say that you're not... I agree with that. You're not a title contender in the month of October, are you? No, you're not. But they're not out of it yet, either. I mean, if I said to you, am I a title contender for Clash of the Commentators, what would you say? I would say you're the favourite, Ian.

26:31Ian Dennis:Well, you're everyone's favourite, aren't you? You're our favourite. You're the housewife's favourite. You're just the favourite. Well, I wouldn't. I don't think that's the case at all. Well, if you'd had a shave and they'd seen that baby face of yours.

26:46Ali Bruce-Ball:From the start of your day... To the moment you head home.

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27:29Ian Dennis:Undercover in the furthest corners of the dark web. US special agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse. Move in now. From the BBC World Service, World of Secrets, the darkest web follows their shocking investigations. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

27:54Ali Bruce-Ball:The Commentator's View on the Football Daily with Alistair Bruce Ball, John Murray and Ian Dennis.

28:03John Murray:Well, last season's champion Ali is rooted at the bottom of the league table. And last week, Ali beat the golf correspondent Ian Carter on cocktails and New York sports teams. I've got to say, by the way, I've listened to both of the episodes that I've missed. I would have cleaned up on the cocktails last week as well.

28:21Ian Dennis:I think you've shown signs of complacency. Well, we'll see. You've talked the talk the last two weeks when you weren't in it. well it says you weren't part of it and you've you've boasted afterwards that that you would have won both of them

28:38John Murray:well we will we will see but I'm also not having this either so that ended Ali's three match losing run but it was only an exhibition so it counts for nothing

28:46Ian Dennis:it counts for nothing

28:47John Murray:so the current standings I'm three from three I'm top John you're still floundering a little bit really two from five and Ali one from four three defeats in a row in the league

28:57Ian Dennis:and this week it is going to be the leader Ian versus the Reigning champion Ali. So, who is going to go first? So, you and me, Ian, are in the same room.

29:09Ali Bruce-Ball:Let Ian go first. Let Ian go first. I will unplug.

29:12Ian Dennis:Okay. I think it's a good question, Ian. Yes, he's gone. It's a good question, Ian. I think you'll quite like this.

29:19John Murray:I'll be the judge of that.

29:20Ian Dennis:Yeah. And there are quite a few answers. So, this week, Arsenal made it two wins from two in the Champions League. And our three o 'clock Saturday commentary on 5 Live this week that you'll be doing, Ian, is Arsenal versus West Ham. Simply, I want you to name any player to have turned out for both Arsenal and West Ham. Your time starts now.

29:47John Murray:Oh, blimey. Clive Allen.

29:53John Murray:Ray Parler. I'm floundering. I can't think. I've got a brain freeze.

30:02John Murray:Freddie Lundberg

30:07Graham Ricks Tommy Kane Oh, Robson Stuart Robson

30:18John Murray:Got that one in After all that boasting

30:21Ian Dennis:There we are then

30:23John Murray:That wasn't very good Although

30:27Ian Dennis:So, see, Ali's come back from New York. Might still be jet lagged. I think that's quite a tricky one. Personally, today, I would not like to have been asked that. No, no. You need to be quite fresh. I know today you've just driven down, haven't you? You've just driven from home to London.

30:44John Murray:I got up very early this morning.

30:45Ian Dennis:Yeah, you were up early. Yeah. So there are, you know, maybe not at your freshest. No. Yeah. Okay, Ali's just putting his headphones back on. He is. Welcome back. Welcome back to Alistair Bruce Ball.

30:58Ali Bruce-Ball:So, Ali, this week, as you know,

31:02Ian Dennis:Arsenal made it two wins out of two in the Champions League. And our three o 'clock Saturday commentary this week is Arsenal against West Ham. I want you simply, and there are quite a lot of answers here, I want you to name any player to have turned out for both Arsenal and West Ham. Your time starts now.

31:23Ali Bruce-Ball:Arsenal-West Ham, I can't think of a single one. I literally can't think of a single one. West Ham and Arsenal.

31:37Ali Bruce-Ball:What, in any era?

31:42Ali Bruce-Ball:No, my mind has gone completely black. There'll be loads. There'll be loads. I'm not going to get any here. I'm going to have to admit defeat.

31:50Ian Dennis:Can't think of a single one. That's what you get. I've gone out of jail. You have gone massively out of jail there. He hardly got any. Yeah, it's difficult. That's very difficult. But he got more than none. But we missed Matt Upson.

32:04John Murray:Oh, that's poor.

32:06Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah.

32:06John Murray:I hope John, like you, he doesn't listen back. Someone will tell him. I think I got three.

32:14Ian Dennis:Oh, well done. You maybe even just go. Graham Ricks is not on our list.

32:18John Murray:No, it would have been Stuart Robson. Oh, Stuart Robson.

32:21Ian Dennis:It's Stuart Robson playing West Hatch.

32:23John Murray:Yeah. Stuart Robson Freddie Lundberg and Clive Allen

32:26Ian Dennis:Clive Allen Ian Wright Ian Wright Clive Allen for West Ham didn't Clive Allen play for West Ham yeah didn't play for Arsenal because of course he moved to Arsenal but never played famously yeah I know

32:38John Murray:but he still was at Arsenal

32:40Ian Dennis:let me just check what the two have turned out

32:43John Murray:oh come on

32:44Ian Dennis:for Arsenal and West Ham was the question that's the question well it doesn't matter anyway that's four from four he's won again I've got a way what about

32:54Ali Bruce-Ball:Mavropanos Mavropanos

32:56Ian Dennis:yeah Mavropanos let me get the most notable ones amazingly neither of you said Declan Rice of course Declan Rice yeah Fabianski Nigel Winterburn Samian Nasri and then there's a long list of which Matthew Upsner's on there Jack Wilshire Wilshire yeah Ian Wright played for West Ham remember at the end of his career yeah who else can I pick out from that John Hartson our old friend John did Tommy did Tommy Caten play? not that I remember but anyway he went to Man City didn't he?

33:34Ali Bruce-Ball:yeah good question although I think that's one of those where clearly because I've got none I'm going to say this that needs a little bit of pondering I think 30 seconds that's quite hard as I've proved

33:44Ian Dennis:you did, you proved that in good style yeah

33:49Ali Bruce-Ball:I sort of gave up, I gave up in the end

33:51Ian Dennis:So this is the picture now at the top of the table. Ian is top of the table with four from four. A Tommy Fleetwood style four from four. Very good. That's very good. Second place, me, two from five.

34:07Ali Bruce-Ball:And then, Ali, one from five.

34:11Ian Dennis:And that is now four defeats in a row in the league. Four competitive defeats in a row.

34:19Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah, fans could be turning.

34:21Ian Dennis:That's almost Murray-esque. It is. Well, he's got a bit to go. I very much hold the record there. Well played, everyone. Particularly well played, Ian. And your boasting was well played.

34:33John Murray:It wasn't really well played at all. It was a pretty poor effort for both of us. But a win is a win, as they say. And you move on, as we do now. Because it's now time for the great Glottery of Football Commentary, where we add listener suggestions of football-specific commentary terms and phrases to our collection. and another thing that was decided in my absence is that division one and division two have been introduced yeah well when the cat's away so division one is now for football exclusive terms and division two are for terms used in football commentary but also used in other sports

35:07Ian Dennis:this could wreak havoc with my plans for the book no why should that well the book will become more interesting all right okay like the world tour last week you had thunderous strike that's great

35:22John Murray:that's great football that's great oh yeah sorry yeah which i actually heard you say that's great rider cup golf i definitely heard you say that yeah and one for the cameras all of which we allocated to division two now we had some excellent work from five lives mark scott during aston villa Fulham last weekend.

35:42Ali Bruce-Ball:Surely a shy at goal you fancy here from Luca Dina, who runs up to it and bends it goalwards and Laino gets across to make a safe gather. That's one for the cameras there from Bert Laino but it may have been on target from Luca Dina.

35:55John Murray:And we also had this from Wednesday's Football Daily, our 72-plus EFL pod with Aaron Paul and Joby McInuff.

36:03Ali Bruce-Ball:Walker, long way out, shot from him! Oh, brilliant! Jamie Jimmy Walker finds the top corner where the spider sleep right into that postage stamp. The commentator's view. Can we just do an internal memo here at Five Live to John Murray, Ali, Bruce, Bowie and Dennis and the rest of the gang on the commentator's view? Where the spider sleep.

36:30John Murray:That is excellent commentary.

36:33Ali Bruce-Ball:I love that. Give that commentator a bacon roll.

36:38John Murray:That would be Matt Dean, wouldn't it? It would. At Radio Humberside, who I know listens a lot. Does he? Does he? There we are then. So Matt has come up trumps there with Where the Spider Sleeps.

36:47Ian Dennis:So our only turn in Division 1 so far, is that right? Is the Cruyff turn?

36:53Ali Bruce-Ball:I think since Div 1 came in. Oh, since it came in.

36:56Ian Dennis:That's the only one we've put into Division 1. So emails to tcv at bbc.co.uk for the great glossary or for anything else. and Kenneth in Glasgow has written in. He says, I did wonder how long the glossary could go on, but the addition of the Cruyff turn showed me it still has a lot of mileage left. In fact, I immediately turned my mind to footballers who have become associated with something specific. Unfortunately, I couldn't think of any. So I popped down to my local, the audacious Penenka for inspiration. Still can't think of anything. I'll order another pint of that nice Belgian beer to see if anything comes.

37:34Ian Dennis:it's called Bosman and the best thing about it is it's totally free. Next time you're in Glasgow I'll buy you one. Excellent email that. Yeah, very good. The audacious Penenka. Yeah. That is excellent, isn't it? I'd really fancy a link in the audacious Penenka. Especially if it's free. No, Bosman's free.

37:56Ali Bruce-Ball:But Penenka has to go in. I mean, Penenka is that is Div 1. That is exclusively to Football Commentary. Absolutely Division 1. And of course, we've been there this season.

38:06Ian Dennis:The stadium where it happened, which I mean, that was almost one of the highlights of the trip. And I know I've been there before and thought that before, but I'd forgotten. But the Red Star Belgrade Stadium is where Antonin Penenka took the penalty that became the original Penenka.

38:27Ali Bruce-Ball:It's one of the things I love about our job and going to stadiums in Europe, because during the commentary in Bilbao, although it's a renovated stadium now, but Bilbao is where Brian Robson scored after 27 seconds in the 1982 World Cup. And when you get to cities like that and stadiums like that, you think, wow, I remember that goal. I remember as a kid watching that goal. And now I'm in the place where that goal was scored.

38:52Ian Dennis:On a similar-ish theme, but slightly different, where we are speaking to you from now is the referee's room at Wembley, which has obviously been totally rebuilt with the stadium. But I think, you know, the original referee's room at Wembley would be where the Russian linesman got ready to go out there for the World Cup final in 1966. He was actually from Azerbaijan, wasn't he? Yeah, he was. And made the decision that Jeff Hurst's shot had struck the crossbar and crossed the line.

39:21Ali Bruce-Ball:Notts County fan Andrew gets in touch, tcv at bbc.co.uk. A couple of suggested additions for the first division, The Rabona, not to be confused with Ribena, he says, and the old classic onion bag for the goal net. I'm pretty sure this isn't used anywhere else but in football commentary and at the Greengrocers. So what do we think, chaps? The Rabona and the onion bag. Well, the Rabona's also been mentioned by John in Newcastle.

39:48Ian Dennis:Yeah, and that is another great suggestion. Where did that come from originally? What language is that, Rabona? Good question.

39:57Ali Bruce-Ball:Don't know.

39:57Ian Dennis:Well, people can let us know, tcv at bbc.co.uk. We've also had Onion Bag from Richard in Nova Scotia. Have we heard from him before? We've definitely heard from Nova Scotia before, haven't we? Also, Errol in the USA, Roy in New Zealand, and Suresh in India, among many, many others. So Onion Bag is actually a very, very popular suggestion.

40:22John Murray:I would say Onion Bag is going to go in Division 1.

40:24Ali Bruce-Ball:Okay.

40:25Ian Dennis:I'm good for that. Wouldn't you, Ali? I'm happy. Yeah, no, I'm happy with that. You know me, I wave everything through these days. You do it a minute, yeah.

40:31Ali Bruce-Ball:I've not used onion bag in a commentary for a long time, but very much recognise it as a term.

40:37Ian Dennis:I possibly have never used it.

40:38Ali Bruce-Ball:Oh, right, okay.

40:39Ian Dennis:But I remember it would certainly be used in the Victor comic when I was growing up, and certainly Roy of the Rovers would mention the onion bag. Absolutely so.

40:50Ali Bruce-Ball:Do you own an onion bag, John?

40:53Ian Dennis:I don't own an onion bag. Have you got an onion bag?

40:58Ali Bruce-Ball:No, I just thought it's one of the kind of things that you might have.

41:01Ian Dennis:What, from my rural upbringing? Well, just a man who knows his onions. Well, also, we have a voice note. It's Cameron from Newport in South Wales here. Now, this is a second time voice note. The first time I submitted a suggestion, Daisy Cutter, it was rejected. So I wonder now we have a Division 2, whether or not it can be accepted into there. And talking of new terms to be accepted into Division 2, I recently found myself describing another abject Newport County performance to my friend. In the term, the opposition played us off the park, referring to when a team quite simply outclass us on the pitch.

41:48Ian Dennis:Well Cameron, thank you for the voice notes by the way, I enjoyed that. 08289369 if you want to do what Cameron has done. He also says if we let Daisy Cutter in, it will make his 89 year old granddad in Cumbria a very happy chap. So I'm going to say both of those suggestions go into Division 2.

42:11John Murray:Well, I remember the original suggestion from Cameron, and we said no because it was used in cricket, wasn't it? You know, a daisy cut or a drive through the covers.

42:21Ian Dennis:But that was during the era when we weren't accepting anything.

42:24John Murray:But on this occasion, I think it goes into Division 2. Thirded. We've also had a suggestion from Martin in LA. You don't hear it often anymore, but the term purple patch should be in there in the new Division 1. For example, he's having a purple patch. the player has been playing well for a few weeks or more.

42:42Ali Bruce-Ball:That can't go in Division 1, Purple Patch. It could definitely go in Division 2. Division 2. Yeah. Yeah.

42:49John Murray:So we've got... I mean, Purple Patch applies to many sports as well as Clash of the Commentators. It does.

42:57Ian Dennis:Yeah, and there's no one more purple than you.

43:01John Murray:Well, actually, I disagree because you are actually wearing a purple shirt.

43:04Ian Dennis:You've got a purple face. so we've allowed quite a few into Division 1 this week haven't we? you can't see my face I haven't had it shaved off yet we've allowed the Penenka Bosman the Rabona Onion Bag Division 1's filling up

43:26Ali Bruce-Ball:and I believe we have our sound effect ready

43:36Ian Dennis:Hooray! You did that without your lips moving. Is that forgetting in Div 1? Must be. Excellent. Underwhelmed. No expense spared. No. And in Division 2, Daisy Cutter and Played Us Off the Park.

43:50Ali Bruce-Ball:I would say that Ian played me off the park in Clash of the Commentators today, if we're going to use another glossary term.

43:56Ian Dennis:And also, I suppose we do have to discuss Where the Spider Sleep, which is Matt's variation on a series of favourites. But it is slightly different, isn't it, where the spiders sleep?

44:07John Murray:Yeah.

44:08Ian Dennis:That's a Matt Dean original.

44:10John Murray:Well, isn't that just a variation of where the owl sleeps?

44:12Ian Dennis:Yeah, it is. Yeah. We've got where the cuckabra sleeps, where the owl sleeps. And should we put all of those in the... The spiders sleep? I would have thought so.

44:22John Murray:I was going to say, they're industrious.

44:24Ian Dennis:Yeah, industrious. Famously industrious. So they probably do need a sleep, a little bit like you and me, Ali, after the week that we've had.

44:32Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah. Yeah. Well, just very quickly on that. I don't know how you two chaps sleep on planes, but I find it quite hard to sleep on planes. And coming back from the States, I always get back to the UK absolutely exhausted. After the Ryder Cup this week, I was so tired. I sat down in an aisle seat on the plane and I slept for six hours solid, just straight, no waking me at all. And the woman who was sitting by the window on the plane tried to wake me and couldn't and had to clamber over me to go to the loo. That is how tired I was after the Riding Cup. Didn't wake you up.

45:06Ian Dennis:I remember Celtic Manor, because it finished on the Monday, spilled over into the Monday. I then, probably for football reasons, I then had to drive back home from Celtic Manor to the north. And I remember now I was so tired. I think I had to stop for three lengthy sleeps in the car on the way back from Celtic Manor. I was so tired.

45:28John Murray:So thank you, John. Thank you, Ali. I keep the unintended pub names and glossary suggestions coming in. The email tcv at bbc.co.uk. Voice notes on WhatsApp to 08000 289 369. So that's it for this episode of the Football Daily. The next one will be the football interview with Liverpool's Hugo Eketike. As for us here on the commentator's view, well, John will be back next week. So tune in for that. and you can catch up on all of the other episodes through the 5 Live Football Daily feed. Are you going on the train? Are you driving to Newcastle?

46:05Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah, doing the train. I'm going on the train Saturday and then back Sunday, yeah.

46:08John Murray:Yeah, looking forward to it. I don't often get there. Well, you say that. Have you seen the weather forecast? Yeah, terrible. Don't hear me. You're going to get soaked, mate. Yeah. You're going to be travelling over your underpants.

46:18Ali Bruce-Ball:I'll get the old golf waterproofs on. You might need them. You might need them. Thanks for your optimism.

46:24Ian Dennis:Okay.

46:26Ali Bruce-Ball:Look at those two. Have a good weekend. Their games in London, smug as you like. Tucked up at Stumford Bridge. See you. Nicely.

46:35John Murray:Welcome to the brand new podcast series Rugby League Top 10 with me, Mark Chapman.

46:40Ian Dennis:It's where John Wilkin, Brian Noble and Jamie Peacock will discuss, debate and argue over lists of the best players, games, finals, iconic moments and plenty of other categories that will no doubt leave you screaming at your device. The most entertaining parts of our sport, the jeopardy, the moments. He made Rugby League look cool. Yeah. I mean, that's a difficult thing to do, I think. It is really, isn't it? Yeah, no. I think we've all managed to carry that battle.

47:05John Murray:Rugby League Top Ten. Listen on BBC Sounds. We focus on the part of the internet that most people don't know about. It's called the dark web.

47:18Ian Dennis:Undercover in the furthest corners of the dark web. US special agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse. Move in now. From the BBC World Service, World of Secrets, the darkest web follows their shocking investigations. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.