The Commentators' View: Hospital pass & boxing is back

0:00The Commentator's View on The Football Daily with Alistair Bruce Ball, John Murray and Ian Dennis. Hello, welcome to the Football Daily. I'm Ian Dennis and this is the Commentator's View, where we five live commentators talk football, our travels and the language of football commentary. And after a two week break, I am back, but the ever presents remain. Ali Bruce Ball and correspondent John Murray. Well, it's nice to have you back. It feels like a long time that you've not been with us. You had that big gap at the start of the season as well, didn't you? Did I have a gap at the start of the season?

0:36It feels like quite a long time since we've recorded one of these podcasts, and it is because the one we did last week with Jonathan Agnew, we recorded right at the start of the week, so it comes out on a Friday, but we recorded it on a Monday. So it's almost been two weeks since we actually recorded one of these, and obviously England managed to lose the first test in the space of two days. So it was a long time. He passed under that bridge between the time we recorded it and when it actually went out. By the time that it went out, it felt like ancient history. Here's a question for the pair of you at the start of this podcast.

1:09What purchase do you think I've just made that connects to our job that would have me rather excited? So I've not replaced this item for, I think, a good four or five years, but a new one has arrived yesterday. And it's going to get its first run out at West Ham, Liverpool on Sunday. A pair of slippers? I would suggest it's something heated. It's close. It's close. So I don't go for the heated version. It is just a new coat, a new winter coat. I've not replaced my winter coat for a long time. And that's so important to a football commentator. And I'm so excited about it. Are you? And you're trying it out at West Ham for the first time?

1:45Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yes. Well, I might wear it around the house, John, before that. Is it a sheepskin coat? No, it's not. I knew you were going to ask that. No, it's very boring. It's very functional. It's dark blue, like most of my clothes. it's warm it's not knee-length it's not silly you and i are very much the dark blue brothers aren't we yeah um we are yeah the other thing our producer gary here you say that he thought he was part of the czechia twins because the two of you forever wearing czech shirts um the thing i've learned about buying new coats is that in our job i don't know about you you cannot have a coat that's too big, because so many commentary positions are tight, if you have a coat that's too big and also the summarizer's wearing a big coat, there's not enough space.

2:39That's true. I agree with that. Old Trafford, which is possibly one of the tightest commentary positions, especially if the presenter decides to present from there as well. We're all squeezed into a row of six. And if I'm wearing my big, thick, chunky padded coat, I actually can get quite irritated because I feel restricted. You feel restricted, yeah. It's not the presenter who decides whether to present from there, incidentally. It's the editorial team. Well, I'm not sure about that. There are some presenters who think they're editors. Really? Yeah. Breaking news. I've not heard that. Well. That's quite a statement, Ian.

3:15Yeah. Anyway, you can send your WhatsApp and your voice notes to 08000 289 369. We've got the emails, of course, to tcv at bbc.co.uk. You didn't do Clash of the Commentators last week, but that will be back by popular demand on this episode. And we will also, of course, be doing our unintended pub names. And speaking of which, Ross, HM Ambassador to Estonia. Greetings from the Baltics. I bet it is Baltic as well there. Still loving the podcast. For your accidental pub names, how about one you previously mentioned on the pod in Clash of the Commentators? the inform Ian Dennis. I've attached an AI mock-up.

4:01I think it's nicely meta to have a pub name from the show itself. I've got to say, that doesn't look anything like me. Do you not think? I think that's a good likeness. It looks like the character out of Pretty Woman. You know, the lawyer for Richard Gere. What was he called? Yeah, I do know who you mean. That's a random look-alike you picked there. Yeah. Do you not think that looks like him, Ali? Well, he hasn't got a stubble. He's not got grey hair. In fact, he's got more hair than I've got, actually. And he's chubbier than I am as well. He looks, the image, he looks like you are, and he looks like a genuinely lovely, welcoming, comely fellow.

4:43He does. I think they've definitely got that bit right. I think it's the spitting image. Can we rewind the bit where I said he's chubbier than me as well, that you meant to say, yes, he is? because I just looked on the Zoom session. Ali, you were motionless. And John, you just started giggling. I thought it was quite funny how close a likeness Ross had managed to find to you, that's all. Anyway, Ian, you were in great form in Clash of the Commentators before your mid-season break. And you were at the top of the table, but you have lost the last two, both against Ali. and the inform Ian Dennis falling on hard times.

5:23We might soon have last orders at the inform Ian Dennis. Well, if you're drinking in there, I'm going to start calling closing time very soon. Anyway, before we talk about our adventures and the games we've been to in the week, let's just run you through our five live Premier League commentaries this weekend. I'll be joined by Chris Sutton for the three o 'clock commentary in the usual goal service, Manchester City against Leeds United. You must show the pub sign to Chris and ask him if he thinks that it looks like you. That's a good idea. Yeah. OK. Yeah. Remind me to do that. Not. Sunderland-Bourmouth is the alternative on Sports Extra, also at three.

6:02And then Everton-Newcastle is our commentary after Sports Report at 5.30. Ali, you're joined by Clinton and your new coat, West Ham United against Liverpool. What a huge game that is. That's at five past two. will also offer Aston Villa Wolves on Sports Extra and also at 5 past 2 on Sports Extra 2, which is a streaming service through BBC Sounds, Nottingham Forest against Brighton and Hove Albion. And then the small matter of Chelsea against Arsenal, John and Tat Nevin. Well, maybe we'll talk about that in a moment. But why 5 past 2 suddenly? Because isn't there an earlier game? You're right. There's a midday kickoff.

6:43and so the TV bosses would have decided that they want that to finish a little bit of buffer before going into five past two. Not that the schedule, of course, is dictated by television at any point. Perish the thought. Incidentally, on Tuesday and Wednesday night on Five Live, we will be around the grounds because there's a midweek Premier League action on Tuesday and Wednesday, so we'll have that covered as well on Five Live. I think Chelsea-Arsenal is a Premier League match that I'm looking forward to more than I have won for quite a while. You mean that particular match-up between those two clubs?

7:20Yeah. So do you think, John, because you've just watched Arsenal steamroll a Tottenham in the North London derby and do a really good job on Bayern Munich in the week. So do you think Chelsea will have enough to stand up to Arsenal? Well, at the same time, Ian, you saw them put in a very, very impressive display against an admittedly disappointing Barcelona on Tuesday night. But even so, winning 3-0 against Barcelona means that, I mean, they're in pretty good shape, aren't they, coming into this match? And the margin of victory could have been far greater as well. I thought they dominated, they controlled the game, and I have to say, and he scored a terrific goal, but Esteval, every time I've seen him in the flesh, and I heard Conor and Pat Nevin rave about him from the summer, and yet every time I've seen him, he hasn't disappointed.

8:08But they don't have a good record, do they, against Arsenal? They've not won, I think, in their last six at home against Arsenal. Mind you, that's history, isn't it? Yeah. That is history and we're looking at, I think, looking at where they are now. But I just think whatever happens in this match, it's going to be a really interesting outcome because obviously if Arsenal go and put in another statement performance there and stretch their lead at the top of the table. I think just the belief as well that they'd get from doing that and to have a week where you've played the North London derby, possibly the best team in Europe right now, the previously unbeaten Bayern Munich, and then Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, if they come out of those three with flying colours, then I think the feel on Monday morning will be, well, and it's not, but the feeling will be, well, that's that then.

8:59Yeah. The thing is about Arsenal is that, and you'll have seen it at first hand in midweek, is the strength in depth. You know, he made changes, didn't he, to take Sakharov when it was still 1-1. Yeah. Which he could do, which he could do on Wednesday because it wasn't. Even though that did, again, really enhance their position because of the way that they won it and the powerful performance in the second half particularly. you know really as we said at the time in the commentary i'm sure that was a planned change to make but kaiosaka uh to make the change because of the match coming up on sunday so and i think that's what we're saying in the champions league isn't it with harlan not starting for manchester city voltamada not starting for newcastle i think they all think well you know this is the actually the champions league is the opportunity to shuffle things around a bit yeah and i heard i heard you make the point that very point john on thursday morning uh on five live breakfast about the fact But Arsenal, five wins out of five, now with the last three games, will use those games to get players like Erdegaard and Jokeres and Havertz and all these players who haven't even been playing for Arsenal in the last few weeks sort of back up to speed.

10:06And Maduweke, who's now back as well. So you're right, Ian. I think this week they just keep proving it, Arsenal. And Mikel Arteta gets asked the question, doesn't he, after every game, is this the season? Are you going to go on and win this, win that and the other? and he keeps saying, well, you know, as any football manager would, you know, we've got a tough week ahead and let's deal with what we've got in front of us. They just keep proving the point this season and I don't see them being pipped to the Premier League title. And on a wider point, looking at the Champions League now, now we're into the second season of this league phase, I feel more strongly than ever before that it's not quite right, this.

10:41And I don't think you'll ever get an ideal scenario in that the matches before you get to the knockout stage, however you do it, whether you do a league phase, whether you do one group, two groups, I don't think you'll ever reach the kind of competitiveness that UEFA are looking for. It's almost like they want something to be resting on every match. But this is not ideal. And I think recently we've seen examples where in the World Cup, groups of four, you know, how groups of four can be incredibly exciting. And also, they pit, like Scotland, Denmark, groups of four will pit you matches against each other when everything's on the line that you won't necessarily get in a league of 36.

11:28And, you know, it's not gripping me. And also, the point that I've always made, it's not as fair when you have a league system and you don't play every team. and again on Wednesday night I was left thinking as I have been in this system thinking I'd love to now at some point see the other match where Bayern Munich are at home to Arsenal and you don't get that in the league phase. No, but if Arsenal and Bayern Munich were in a group of four those two at this stage now would have already qualified. Well, you say that probably yes that is the case but were one of them to lose in a group of four against one of the in inverted commas lesser teams, then you are chasing your tail.

12:15Yeah, I think, John, that's more likely to happen in international football, like you say, in qualifiers and at World Cups. I think the likelihood of those sort of results where the so-called bigger nation gets turned over is more likely to happen in international football. Because my memory of the group stages before we got into the league phase was exactly what Ian was saying, was once you got halfway through a group, you know, or four games in, four out of six, the top two teams have won their first four. They're coasting. I accept that. I agree with you. There's not an ideal solution. I accept that.

12:47In many of the groups, that was the case. But there would always be a couple of groups where it would be exciting. I think if the Newcastle group, in the last season of groups of four, do you remember when they were in with TSG, Milan and Dortmund? I mean, that was a thrilling group. And it went to the last night. And Milan and Newcastle were playing each other. But that was the exception, wasn't it? Yeah, but I still think that that's better than what we have now. But if you think about Liverpool, they've still got work to do. They've got to go to Inter Milan. They've got a tricky away game in January in Marseille.

13:22They're not home and hosed yet. So you don't think they're going to make it, do you? Well, I think they might struggle to get the top eight. Yeah, well, but they will progress. Yeah, but I mean, look at Juventus. Juventus are another team. There will still be, I think, come January, whatever it is, the 28th, 29th, there will be more jeopardy going into that final night than there would have been had we been still stuck with the previous format. There will around the point of 24 in the league. Yeah, but nobody wants to play those two additional games come February. Yeah, not just 24, John, but imagine, you know, sort of 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, trying to get into that top eight as well, possibly.

14:07I'll tell you what, there's a question as well. I mean, you talk about Liverpool definitely going to finish in that top 24. Where do you see Liverpool's next win coming from, John? I was listening to you. In fact, I was reporting on PSG Spurs on Wednesday night while you were commentating. And as those goals were going in in the second half at Anfield, the surprise in your voice that I registered, and I think everyone... it's not a surprise now, actually. It's not again. Surely not again at home. Well, I was listening to Ian commentate on them, capitulate against Nottingham Forest. Yeah. I tell you what, Sunday will be an eagerly awaited day on Five Live because before that game that you're doing, John, Ali, you're going to be at West Ham.

14:47And Liverpool go into that game on their worst run for 71 years on a slot saying he will fight on. but he is under real scrutiny now. Nine defeats in 12. The most defeats over a 12-game spell since the 1950s. Yeah. I was looking at this, just doing a bit of prep for the game. So the last time you would say that Liverpool found themselves in a situation like this, in terms of questioning the manager's position, was the second season after Brendan Rodgers had come very close to winning them the title. So he got another season after that, but Luis Suarez had gone and they finished sixth. And then the season after that, he was on a run of one win in nine games.

15:29They drew a Merseyside derby against Everton and that was that. They made the change and Jurgen Klopp came in. So that's 10 years ago. So it's not since then that they've been in this sort of position where they're on this sort of run that has you asking questions like that. I think the thing that strikes me, well, there's definitely a loyalty thing as in, can you really get rid of a manager who's won you the title only a few months ago. But the other thing that strikes me is he keeps coming out after matches and saying, and I've seen it as well Ian, you saw it against Nottingham Forest first half hour, we're playing well in patches.

16:05And there are bits in games where Liverpool are playing well. But as soon as they go behind at the moment, I mean Stephen Warnock picked up on it in the BBC analysis on Wednesday. Last couple of goals they conceded against PSV. I mean giving up is too strong, but just the collective belief, desire, spirit, everything just seems to have sapped out of that team. Well, they've lost three consecutive games in all competitions by a margin of three or more goals for the first time since 1953. And there must be something wrong with the confidence levels of the players because if you look at their record, they've played 20 games this season.

16:42They've scored first in 10 and they're unbeaten when they've scored the opening goal. And indeed, they started well, as you say, Ali, against Forest last week. McAllister had a shot, good block by Anderson. In the 10 games where they've conceded first, only on one occasion have they come from behind to win, and that was Eintracht Frankfurt. So that tells me that once they go behind, there's something wrong with the confidence levels of the players. There has to be something fundamentally wrong for them to be so brittle, so fragile, so vulnerable when they concede first. But didn't Liverpool have a big drop-off in the season?

17:17after they finally won the title again in 2020. So 2020-21. And, you know, I've had a look back at this and it is not unusual by any means for a club, a team, to have a significant drop off the season after they won the league. And it happened to Manchester City, you know, in recent times. It's happened, you know, if you think back to when Leicester City won the league, the way that it dropped off for them. The way that, if you go a little bit further back, Blackburn, Leeds United, I remember Leeds United, the season after they won the league, the question being asked, and with Blackburn, whether they were actually going to be able to stay in the top division the season after.

18:07And I think sometimes you underestimate the effort and what it takes out of a group of players to put in the kind of season that they did last season. And then you throw in the death of Diego Jota, which, you know, I do feel always has to be mentioned with this. And then clearly the manager, you know, which at the time we thought was going to make them the strongest team in Europe by a million miles when they spend 400 million pounds plus on new players. You know, it's just been all of that has led to where we are. Yeah, you're right, John. There's a huge combination of factors there. And also actually just just looking at the back line at the moment.

18:44You know, Alisson's missed nine of the last ten games. Trent Alexander-Arnold has left. They haven't got to fit right back. So that's Jones or Sobosly playing at right back. Kerkhez hasn't settled, but has started most of the Premier League games. And Canate and Van Dijk, I wouldn't just say Canate. Canate and Van Dijk have not been at their best this season. Well, the drop-off for Van Dijk and Salah, you know, two of the most important players, cannot be understated either. Yeah. I also don't understand why Joe Gomez isn't being played at right back. I think to keep putting Sabostlai or Jones in at that position, I think just not only you haven't got a recognised defender in that position, but it also weakens the midfield because Sabostlai has been possibly one of Liverpool's better players this season.

19:27So in this instance, do you guys feel that? So West Ham away on Sunday, in every game they go into now, you know, big eyes on it because, crikey, when are they going to get the win? When are they going to turn this around? Let's say they do get a win. Do you see them suddenly clicking into gear and putting five or six wins together? Or do you think this is going to be a season where they are just going to go up, down, up, down, all the way through, possibly get top four? I don't know. How do you see it playing out? I just feel they are too... Something will happen. They are too good a group of players not to find some form somewhere this season.

20:04And as I mentioned on Five Live during the course of the week, were they in to find a way through into the knockout stages of the Champions League there could yet be dangerous opponents in that competition when the league has gone for them and the Champions League is something they can really focus on We actually might hear some of the Liverpool Forest commentary here as we venture into our unintended pub names from sport commentary Once again we have been inundated with these so thank you very much The WhatsApps and voice notes to 08000 289 369 the emails to tcv at bbc.co.uk. Last week's highlights, the flying Sochek, the naughty chair and the commentator's view, which I actually quite like that one.

20:48This week, let's start with this one, which has come in on the old WhatsApp thingy. This is Matt from Dursley in Gloucestershire. The swivelling Gakpo. A swivelling Gakpo with a header that drops off target and out for a goal kick. That would be, I think, a cheeky little wine bar lots of Malbecs definitely somewhere I would go the Swivelling Gakpo I have an image of one of those high bar stool sort of like just no other tables you've just got to sit at the bar on a Swivelling Gakpo on a Swivelling Gakpo Craig says I always enjoy hearing the unintended pub names, I have one for you from the Preston Blackburn game when Preston were attacking the commentator referred to the Preston Riposte which I thought was quite clever and would work with the pub being in Preston and being the main place for the locals keep up the good work the Preston Riposte on the mention of Preston our colleague Paul Fletcher got in touch with me this week on the unintended pub names Preston fan and he says by the way it's not quite the Phantom Whistler so do you remember the Phantom Whistler was one of our pubs but there is a pub in Preston named after the peerless Tom Finney called the Phantom Winger.

22:06Of course, yeah. That is a genuine Preston pub, the Phantom Winger. There we are, Ben. By the way, who says that we don't appeal to a younger audience? 15-year-old Ewan has been in touch from Hertford, so thank you, Ewan, for listening. Hello, Ali, John and Ian. I was listening to Ian's brilliant commentary of Nottingham Forest versus Liverpool, and I couldn't help but notice an unintended pub name. We're inside the last 60 seconds. Salah gets away from a stumbling Williams. And Salah in the area, and he actually goes towards the near post with the outside of his left boot. He says, I imagine the stumbling Williams as a packed high street club in the city of Nottingham, popular after a hard-fought win at the city ground.

22:47Love the pod, keep it up. Ed in Maidstone says there was an unintended pub name from Alistair Bruce Ball on Sunday in the Leeds Villa match. Coming up to 13 minutes played. Luca Dean is there, Buendia is there for Aston Villa. You can see Buendia's shirt just being tugged in the chilly breeze in Yorkshire here this afternoon. Leeds have one man in the bright white shirt down as the draft excluder behind the wall. So Ed continues, the chilly breeze, somewhere to take refuge from the weather with a roaring fire. The chilly breeze. Do you enjoy your trip to Elland Road, Ali? I love going there, John.

23:26I love going there. Yes, it is a very atmospheric football ground. And actually, it is somewhere you have a lot of space, isn't it, up on the gantry? We're a little to the left of the halfway line. And the opening goal that was scored in that game, our monitors weren't working. And it was away to the right. And I think I had three goes at the goal scorer before I actually got it correct. But I did get the right team scoring. So I do like it there, John. I do like it. Mentioned in there, by the way, is the draft excluder. Have we proposed that? How have we not said that one yet? The draft excluder.

24:01we've mentioned this already last week of course was our Ash's special episode with Jonathan Agnew and you can still catch that on the Football Daily feed in reference to that Tim from Northern Ireland's written in I love the pod and I enjoyed listening to the most recent episode whilst driving down to the Aviva Stadium in Dublin with my dad to watch Ireland play South Africa in the rugby they couldn't sort their feet out was put forward as a possible glossary injury and Jonathan Agnew mentioned Inzamam Olhak famously getting his feet tangled up whilst batting at Headingley describing him going down like a felled elephant.

24:32Inzamamal Huck famously did so at Headingley one time and went down like a felled elephant. I couldn't help but think that this would make an excellent pub name. I'm heading down to the felled elephant for a pint of bitter. Keep up the good work and thanks also to Gary in Ireland who sent that one in. Definitely, definitely. If you couldn't sort your feet out you'd end up in the Stumbling Williams. And couldn't sort their feet out last week came from Richard in Stockport and Richard has got back in touch and says, thank you for making my Friday. Just listened to the episode with Agas and was absolutely chuffed to hear you run.

25:10Couldn't sort their feet out past him. I'm an absolute cricket badger, says Richard. And to hear my suggestion be dismissed by Agas was brilliant. And a huge footy fan as well, he says. Love your commentaries and the podcast. And Steve in Chelmsford, listening to day one of the ashes. I heard about a great pub down in Western Australia when Steve Smith was in a spot of bother. He is bowling well. Pass the umpire now to bowl to Smith and Smith ducks underneath that one. A flapping duck, Smith. Shut up. The bat was up periscope. Quick. Sometimes it hits it on the way through but actually it's just a bit wide over his back and through to the keeper.

25:49We've gone from a cricket badger to a flapping duck and if you spot an unintended pub name in football or cricket, the commentary then do let us know, tcv at bbc.co.uk or WhatsApps to 08000 289 369. And I must just mention, Ian, one that I heard the other night from Chris Coles after the Newcastle match. Barnes' goal had given Newcastle the early lead, but within five minutes of the game restarting after the break, Newcastle were behind or Bamiyang twice, rounding a reckless Pope for the first, poking in at the front post for the ultimate winner. The reckless Pope, I thought, that is a pub name.

26:24The Reckless Pulp. I've got to say, you've just gone and ruined my link name because I was about to then say, if you hear an unintended pub name in football, cricket, or indeed boxing, because this weekend we've got live professional boxing returning to BBC primetime television for the first time in 20 years, and Five Lives Boxing. Steve Bunce is with us to tell us more. Morning, boys and girls. One thing, in boxing, we wouldn't necessarily have pubs, but we'd have kind of, I don't know, sort of trendy bar sort of brasserie-style places. Would you not? No, because in a way, not really. We try and move on from there in a ridiculous way because we believe we can move on.

27:06So we'd have things like We're Back, Back With You, Old Friends Reunited. I mean, we don't go for sensible things like the Knack's Head or the Jockey. No, we'd have something silly like that. We'd ruin it, let's put it that way. What was that great pub you took me to just south of the river? In Lambeth. Yeah. I think it was called The Pineapple in Lambeth Way, not to be confused with Lambeth Walk, and it was a stone's throw from where William Blake, the great poet and seditionist from the late 18th into 19th century, lived, because if you're going to go to a boxing pub, if you're going to go to a boxing pub in inner London, at least go to one close to where a guy wrote fine poetry.