The Commentators’ View: John Helm & the magic sponge

24:07The train leaves in 20 minutes. Absolutely true, and they lost 1-0. That's a true story. That's the sort of thing that's happened to me along the way.

24:16Ali Bruce-Ball:Oh, my goodness, mate. Wanted to ask you about one game in particular, John, out of those 6 ,775. Because again, just reading an interview you'd given this season, you commentated on a game that really properly got me hooked on football at the World Cup in 1982. So I was into my football by then, but the game that really sparked my imagination and I can still picture it now and hear it now in vivid colour was Italy's 3-2 win over Brazil at the World Cup in Spain in 1982 and the Paolo Rossi hat-trick. So in terms of doing that game, John, just in terms of the nuts and bolts of it, sort of stadium, weather, atmosphere, noise, facilities, what was that like to do that game?

25:09It was the greatest game I've ever seen. You're absolutely spot on. And I felt so proud to have been there, to have the opportunity to commentate on that. And the only thing I would say about my performance that day was that I was unprofessional in that I so wanted Brazil to win. Zico, Socrates, Falcao, Edair, Junio, the names rolled off the tongue. And I thought it would have been good for the very essence and very future football if Brazil had won that World Cup. I'd done every one of their games against Russia and Scotland and New Zealand and Argentina when Maradona got sent off. And it was such a privilege.

25:49The weather was fantastic. The Brazilians in the yellow strips, in the crowd, made it such a colourful occasion. It was played in Barcelona, not in the Sarriot Stadium, not in the Nou Camp. But it was without question a game that had everything. That, for me, summed up the whole of football, what it can be like, a colourful pageant. exhilarating, entertaining. You go to watch that every day of the week. It was a dream to be there. They were probably the greatest side never to win a World Cup, weren't they? Without question. Absolutely without question, Jim. I think Denno, you just enjoyed commentating on them.

26:33We've all been to some good matches. We've been to some horrible matches over the years. It's always a privilege to go to any game for me, but to have been there at that one Ali was a great question because it's given me the opportunity to say that that sums up what I was talking about earlier we are so privileged to be in this job and to have seen great moments like that, you know, I saw Usain Bolton, that was another great moment as well breaking a world record I saw Geoffrey Boycott make his 100th 100 and it's just to be there and to have that thrill and the honour of having been there is For nothing.

27:09We haven't paid to go, have we? We're just there doing our jobs.

27:12Ali Bruce-Ball:It's interesting you talk about the other sports there, John, because, you know, we've all, you know, Johnny and I have done a few different sports in our time as commentators for BBC Radio Sport. Again, from my research ahead of this pod today, 39 different sports that you've commentated on, apparently. Yeah, some of them very badly. For example, greyhound racing, where dogs are called something like Maharaja Baroda III and the race lasts 30 seconds. And I did that at the old Ellen Road dog track, which you'll know, Denno, in Leeds. And I got one response, stick to football. And he was absolutely right.

27:52But even, yeah, I do the Asian games and I did five sports in one day the last time I was in China doing it. I did handball, which is a nightmare. there. It's so fast going from one end of the court to the other that you can't possibly do them all well. But the other thrilling moment I had from another sport, Ali, was golf. And in 1977 for Radio 2 as it was at the time, I was the on-course commentator when Nicholas and Watson had the famous shootout and interviewed Linda Watson, Tom's wife, as he holed the winning putt. It was another memory that you'll never lose. You can't erase things like that from your mind.

28:32So yeah, it's been fantastic. And what you do do is research even more diligently a sport that you're not used to doing. So I had to do open water swimming. I was even offered chess. Could you imagine commentating on chess? Good move. Every now and again, good move. Well played. So some I've thoroughly enjoyed. Recently, I've done water polo. I've done that for the last four editions of the World Water Polo, the World Aquatics Championships, and thoroughly enjoyed that. You know, they are the best of the best. You know, I've always said even Torvald and Dean. You knew they were the best. Franz Klammer skiing, you knew he was the best.

29:11You only have to watch them to know somehow. Something inside tells you, why, he's good. They're good. They're better than anybody else. And that's been a privilege, again, you know, all these different sports. You've just mentioned the golf in 1977. What was the story involving Argentina in the World Cup in 1978? No, no, you've been a bit naughty here. No, no. I'll tell you what, this is from John Murray.

29:36Ali Bruce-Ball:So John said, we must, must, must ask you about, so apparently you were at that World Cup in 1978, Argentina hosting, and they win it in Buenos Aires, and you were in the dressing room after they won the World Cup. I thought of something else for a moment, which involved a certain manager. But yes, the final finish in Buenos Aires, and I was the producer for BBC there. I did do one commentary, fully enough, involving Brazil and Italy. But I was down at the dressing room door and Ernie Brandt, one of the Dutch players I got to know during the build-up, and he said, come into the dressing room. And this was, they'd just got beaten in the World Cup final.

30:16And I'm in the Dutch dressing room interviewing Remy van der Kerkhoff, Ernie Brandt, Johnny Rep, you know, within five minutes. I mean, could you imagine that today, even at Rotherham United or Wraith Rovers? you'd have no chance at all would you? And then all evening the car horns sounding Argentina winning the World Cup for the first time ever. But yeah those are just the wonderful things that used to happen. In those days you knew every player you had the phone number of every what would now be Premier League player and certainly every manager and you talked to them on a regular basis. I used to go playing darts and dominoes with Jack Charlton and Billy Brenner on a Friday night.

30:58Imagine doing that today.

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32:44Ali Bruce-Ball:Just before we get on to some of our more regular and lighter pod features, one thing I hope you don't mind me asking you about. you were the commentator weren't you at Bradford City in 1985 and the the tragic fire there that day and it's just you know you talk about the the great privilege that we have with with the jobs that we do in the events we get to go and see but on a day like like that day and it would be the same for Peter Jones at Hillsborough of course wouldn't it in in 1989 probably your every instinct as a human being is either to run away from the danger or run towards it to try and help people.

33:26Ali Bruce-Ball:And actually, you've got to keep doing your job and providing record, haven't you, of that? That must have been just incredibly difficult. Yeah, a very harrowing day. And I never mind talking about it, Ali, because, you know, it has to be talked about. And thankfully, if any good has come from 1985 and May the 11th, It is that we've got some wonderful stadia around the world. And, of course, people can't smoke cigarettes in football grounds anymore, which is what caused the disaster. But I really was grateful for all the training I'd had, almost seven years on a weekly paper, four years on the Yorkshire Post, an evening post, local radio, national radio, before being thrust into television.

34:10And I had a great director with me that day called Peter Jones, and he was very encouraging. He was in my ears just saying, keep talking, John, keep talking. And I was very conscious of not over-dramatising because the pictures were dramatic enough, obviously. And I could see the pall of smoke going up above Valley Parade. And I didn't realise the gravity at the time. I couldn't bother with, Don. And there were a lot of people there that I knew, you know, spilling out onto the pitch. But then two little boys scrambled up the hillside, you know this, Denno, at the old Midland Roadside at Valley Parade, and shouted to me, there were two dead down there.

34:47And that really sent a shudder at me. And even when I speak about Mali Parade on that day, now it still sends a shudder at my spine. But I always say, you have to talk about it because it's happened, it's in history. If I could have been anywhere else that day, I would love to have been somewhere else. But it happened to be me and you just do the job, you hope, as professionally as possible. As I say, not over-dramatised because those pictures must have been horrendous. And thinking about people watching at home, people at home with no interest in the football, suddenly it's Valley Parade, and they're looking at those pictures live, which were being beamed around the world.

35:26So it was a horrific experience, but one that cannot be forgotten, never will be forgotten.

35:32Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah. They played, I mean, in terms of the football, which obviously became a complete irrelevance, they played Lincoln, didn't they? John that day, playing Lincoln that day, who you are now the commentator for Lincoln City. And I'm right in saying, aren't I, that Lincoln asked you to represent them when they played Bradford at Sinsel Bank this season. Yes, they did. I laid the wreath. And funnily enough, I'm laying the wreath before the final home game against Wickham Wanderers as well, because I always insisted that it should never be forgotten that two Lincoln City fans lost their lives and never went home on that day as well.

36:12And yes, I'm honoured that Lincoln have asked me to represent the club in the laying of the wreaths. And I'm honoured, as I say, to do that. That's the way Lincoln have embraced me as well. And I appreciate the gesture very, very, very much. So what was nice, I said that I know a lot of the Bradford people, so I'm not going to wear the Lincoln gear, which I wear on a match day as a representative of the club. I'm going to wear a suit or a smart shirt and tie. And I think the Bradford fans respected that as well. I got a nice reception from both sets of representatives of the clubs.

36:49Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah, we've got John Helm with us on the Commentators View podcast this week. So John, as I said, 56 years of broadcasting. John, we've got some regular features we do on the podcast, so lots of correspondence from our listeners. And I think you'll enjoy joining in with these. One last question before we do that, actually. obviously you've done a lot I mean you it sounds to me like you've done every single job you could possibly do in in broadcasting radio and television do you have a favorite uh in terms of commentating on they're very different styles aren't they radio commentary is very very different from tv commentary and you have done both brilliantly do you have one you prefer well this is a very strange question it's a very strange answer in a funny way I loved doing a programme called Scrum Down, which is rugby league, which is how I got to know Dave Woods, of course, simply because, if you know, and Denny, you particularly know as well, of course, it's the old thing about fail to prepare, prepare to fail.

37:49But with rugby league, you didn't need to do as much preparation because there is so much action. It's so fast and it's shorter. It's 80 minutes. You still did your notes about every single player, but it never stopped and also the accessibility something I was talking about a moment ago about football as you have that still with rugby league players we would go out on this programme scrum down to present a player of the match award and I'd be in the dressing room just like I was the Dutch in 1978 I'd be in the dressing room five minutes after they'd been smashing one another to bits doing this player of the match award we did one at Headingley and a player called Carl Gibson was voted the player of the match of you.

38:30Somebody had stubbed a cigarette out on his backside. We've been very hot. But as an actual commentator, Rugby League, I thought, was fantastically entertaining to do. It really was because, you know, eight or ten tries a match, really. So it might be a bit of a strange answer, but I thoroughly enjoyed several years of doing Rugby League commentary.

38:50Ali Bruce-Ball:Right. Tell you what, let's move it on then. So the first of our features we'll get to is our unintended pub names and by the sounds of it John, Ian, John, Dave Woods, others do enjoy popping into the odd hostelry or two when they're off duty so John this came about Paul Robinson former England goalkeeper Leeds, goalkeeper Spurs, goalkeeper Blackburn came up with this feature for us it was during a commentary with John Murray I think where John used a phrase and Paul said that actually sounds like a pub name and we now get our listeners to message in whenever they've heard unintended pub names so we got a couple of pub and film names from commentaries for you last week we had sunshine and pain and we had a great film description for a film called the rising whistling drive which i think came from one of ian's uh post-match reports um so kevin from whitstable has sent us this one from michael brown and this was during uh michael and i doing leeds wolves last weekend docker four's going to try and get away on the left bueno slides in Missed the ball, missed the ban.

39:58Ali Bruce-Ball:Okafor though has knocked it out of play. That'll be a throw-in to Wolves. Michael Brown. Yeah, good start, man. Shamane, the talented youngster. And I was at that game as well. So the talented youngster is the suggestion, guys, is the unintended pub name. And Kevin says it would be an upmarket bijou-style pub full of teenagers such as Max Dowman and Rio Ungamoa, who will be trying really hard to get themselves served. However, the manager politely tells them they can only consume soft drinks for another couple of years until they turn 18. The talented youngster. We've had this one, Ali. Brentford fan Matt from Livington on the south coast.

40:35I am sending you a voice note from the harbourside at La Rochelle. Very nice of us too. Anyway, I noticed an early potential public house during the Liverpool derby at the Hill Dickinson. Bill Leslie, I believe it was him, was discussing the pressure on Mr G. Marbanashvili Esquire to stand in for the revered Alison. I sort of thought the revered Alison sounded a bit like a classy Mayfair establishment. Lots of mahogany, red velvet, probably specialises in large glasses of Rioja and venison pie, I believe. So keep up the fine work, chaps.

41:17Ali Bruce-Ball:OK, so John, if you had a choice of going for a pint in the revered Alisson or the talented youngster, where do you think you're heading? I think the revered Alisson sounds good. It could be Malcolm Alisson, it could be Wayne Alisson. Oh, yes. Yeah, it's a good one, isn't it? Denno and I, we don't have a pint anywhere, really, do we? Yeah, as long as Woodsy or John Murray are buying. Yeah, absolutely right. Danny in The Hague in the Netherlands, high TCV, different sport. while watching the snooker, I've just heard Dennis Taylor say the dreaded double kiss during the match between Kyron Wilson and Stan Moody.

41:51Ali Bruce-Ball:Unintentional pub name or unintentional film name, take your pick. The dreaded double kiss. Yeah, it sounds like it could be a bit of James Bond if you were going to go film there. The dreaded double kiss. Have you ever commentated on snooker, John? Presented it. I didn't do the commentary, but we used to do pro-celebrity snooker and Steve Davis was in it. I used to present it and one shocking story at the end I used to always have to say well thank you for joining I hope you've enjoyed the coverage join us again next week wherever and I had alongside me Les Dawson and Jimmy Tarbuck and by mistake it came to the end and I said well thanks very much for joining join us again next week for more Pro Celebrity Golf for some reason I said golf for goodness sake I think I've been doing some the day before and every time I got to the punchline join us again next week Jimmy Tarbuck would shout out darts Les Dorf one shaft out golf I can talk with you about 24 takes to get the programme finished with great characters great characters in Snake so thank you for that Danny the dreaded double kiss if you do spot an unintended pub or film name in any sports commentary let us know tcv at bbc.co.uk and the whatsapps to 08000 289 369 have you done the 92 the grounds well funnily enough I haven't I've been to about 126, but I've not done Bromley, I've not done Crawley.

43:18Because I'm so busy, I thought, I'm not going to just go special just to say that I've been there. I'm hoping to go one day, working there, but I've actually been to about 120 football leagues on Broffitt Park Avenue as Denno knows is my club and I've been to the Barrows and the Workingtons and the Gatesheads, but every year there's another team that comes in. It used to be Daggerland, Redbridge or Forest Green. Forest Green Road was fully off. I went to commentate on with Ian Snodden. And as we arrived, they put up the match postponed sign. So I never got to see Forest Green Rovers at their ground when they were in the league either.

43:53So, yeah, it's something that's still on my mind. You know, it's still possible. I'm all in my mid-80s. I don't wish to go back onto the naughty step. But if, and I've heard John recite this when we have been in an actual pub name rather than an unintended pub name. It is a treat to listen to John rattle through the 92. I mean, he is in the Guinness World Book of Records for doing it. He can do it in 26 seconds. You've seen him good, I know, aren't you? Well, only because I marvel every time I listen. I mean, I've heard you do it after I've had a few pints, so this might be the first time I've heard you do it sober.

44:36Do you know how it happened? It happened because of Radio 2 in the days when a lady called Patricia Arthur from Liverpool was the brain of sport who could answer questions about a timekeeper in a boxing match in 1923. And we took them on. We had to sit an exam in the office in London at Broadcasting House, and Des Lynham, myself, and Christopher Martin Jenkins are a great broadcaster, a lovely guy. We were the three chosen to represent the BBC against the brains of sport. And so when Peter Jones asked me for the first question, I slipped to him. I said, John, did you just ask me to name all the county cricket teams?

45:12So I said, John Helm, name all the county cricket teams, please. I said, Derbyshire, Durham, Mexico, Melbourne, Gloucestershire, Hampshire, Kent, Lancashire, Leicestershire, Middlesex, North Elf, North Somerset, Sirius, Warringshire, Worcester to Yorkshire. It took about four seconds. All right, he said, smart, so I'm so. How about Rugby League? I said, well, there's Barrow, Battle of Blackpool, Bradford, Bramley, Cardiff, Carlow, Castle for Chorley, Dewsburg, Donkers, the Feathers Unfulham, Halifax, Huddersfield Hall, Hawkingston Road, Huntley Heighton, Keesley Leesley, Nottingham Old and Rochdale, Sunnell and Salford, Sheffield, Swinton, Chaplin, Wakeham, Warrington Whiteham, Wiggins, Wiggins, Wiggins and York.

45:43Took about another 15 seconds. Ah, OK then. He said, I bet you can't do the 92 football league clubs. So I'll try. There's Arslas and Villa, Birmingham, Brighton, Coventry, Ed Neutrius, Leeds, Liverpool, Man City, Mania, Milne, Northern Forest, Notts County, Silverman, Stokes, London, Swansea, Tottenham, West Bromwich, and Wolves, Basley, Blackburn, Bolton, Cambridge, Ridge, Cardiff, Charlton, Chelsea, Crystal, Bas, Derby, Grimley, Leicester, Newcastle, Norwich, Oldamore, and QVR, and Sheffield, Wrexham, Brentford, Biscuits, Inbridge, Roves, Burnley, Carl, Chester, Chesterfield, Donkeys, Exeter, Fullham, Gilling, Huddersfield, Lincoln, Millwall, Newport, Oxford, Plymouth, Portsmouth, Preston, Reading, Southend, Swindon, Walsham, Wimbledon, Atkinson, Oldershop, Barnet, Blackpool, Bournemouth, Pratham, City, Bury, Coaster, Crewe, Dalton, Halifax, Hartlepool, Hayford, McIntyre, Mansfield, Northampton, and people at Port Vale, Rock, Scarborough, Sponflop, Sheffield, and York.

46:28And it took 26 seconds. I'm sorry about holding everybody up. I hope you could get your team in there. But it did get me on to the Guinness Book of Records show with David Frost, Paul McCartney, who'd sold the most records worldwide, Billie Jean King, who'd won the most tennis titles, the world's fastest cucumber slicer, the man who played Dracula, of the most times. And a lady, an air hostess, who had fallen 36 ,000 feet out of a plane and lived. And she was fantastic. That's the most everybody's done. So apologies for that. But I hope it didn't take up too much of your time. That is superb, isn't it, Ali?

47:11Ali Bruce-Ball:What on earth have we been doing with our time, Ian? That's what I want to know. That's astonishing. That is absolutely astonishing. Right, we're going to get on to the great glossary of football commentary. I'm very much looking forward to John's input on this. Just before we do that, last week we heard from Rhys in East London, who wrote in delighted about there being a fellow TCV listener called Rhys from London. So this week, that Rhys from London has reached out to say, Dear TCV, I'm not writing today to contribute to your great features of the show, but rather to thank you for making the world feel just that little bit smaller.

47:45Ali Bruce-Ball:Now that I'm aware of a fellow Rhys in East London, I'm not sure if we should meet up for a post-game glass of red, or if like Wenger and Fergie, this is a rivalry for the decades and could only be decided by an exhibition match of Clash of the Commentators on the pod. All the best, Rhys, also from East London. So two listeners called Rhys from East London, so please do reach out again because we need another way of identifying you and differentiating you. And the very good question, obviously, is do you support different football teams? Which teams do our two Rhys' support? Right, should we do the glossary?

48:22The Rees reunion could be in the Rees Rovers.

48:25Ali Bruce-Ball:Very good. So, great glossary of football commentary. We're adding commentary terms and phrases to our collection. You can find our entire glossary in the episode description. So it's Division 1 for football-exclusive terms. You'll only hear them in football commentaries. And Division 2 for terms that are used in football commentary, but they're also used in other sports, other walks of life. Last week, we put postage stamp. Now, I'd be interested to get John's thoughts on this one, actually. We put postage stamp and taking it to the corner flag into Division 1. But Ollie in Sleaford has sent us a WhatsApp.

49:00Ali Bruce-Ball:Hello, TCV team. I feel the need to argue against postage stamp being put in Division 1. While it does describe the top corner of a goal, it also describes the exact placement of a ball in a specific location. Golf uses this term. he landed it on a postage stamp. There's even a golf hole at Royal Troon named the postage stamp. For those reasons, I feel it should be relegated to Division 2. Now, John, I'm well aware of the postage stamp at Royal Troon. I'm not sure in commentary I've ever said he landed it on a postage stamp, though. Have you? No, no, that's a new one to me. And I can't imagine anybody would.

49:41Sometimes people hear what they want to hear. They hear something, they latch upon it. And I don't get that. You wouldn't have done that. I wouldn't have done that. Denner wouldn't have done that. We have had this, though, from Richard in Berkshire. He says maybe the term postage stamp should be reconsidered. And his message reads, You suggested last week that postage stamps are only placed in the top right. Lundy, an island in the Bristol Channel, has had a private postal service since 1929. Its stamps are positioned top left since a UK postage stamp is still required top right? Part and parcel.

50:23If it went top left corner, John, would you say it's in the postage stamp? No, not in this universe. Never, ever.

50:33Ali Bruce-Ball:We've got this one from Ross. Now, we've heard from Ross before. Ross is His Majesty's ambassador to Estonia. Hello, Ross. Dear TCV, greetings again from your Baltics correspondent. A suggestion for the glossary. When a player shown a red card is said to have gone for an early bath. For me, it conjures up visions of those big communal baths in 1970s era changing rooms. I guess it's division two, as it would also be used in rugby. But I also think the early bath, this is a good point, could be a cracking West Country pub with local pork pies and real ales. I mean, it is a classic, the early bath.

51:10Ali Bruce-Ball:and in the modern game Ian you know players don't go for bars now so it doesn't quite work but we still use it but it's probably Div 2 isn't it? It is Div 2 yeah although I agree about the pub in the West Country if it's got pork pies and real ales then John Murray would definitely be in that one Eddie Waring was the first one to use that as far as I'm aware he described a rugby league player who got sent off I think he was a Wakefield Trinity player and Eddie Waring said he's gone for an early bath and it probably was true in those days. They did all dive into the same bath, I reckon. Let's get a voice note.

51:48Ali Bruce-Ball:How about this one from Johnny in Hertfordshire? I have two suggestions, if I may, for the glossary this week, both of which are quite pertinent to this time of the season and both worthy of Division I status, I believe. So the first one is the business end of the season, which obviously only gets brought out in the final few weeks when there's much to play for. And then secondly, squeaky bum time. That classic phrase first uttered by Sir Alex Ferguson many years ago and something that's actually now in common parlance but has its origins firmly in football, I believe. So yeah, they're mine too.

52:28Ali Bruce-Ball:I know a bit cheeky, but hopefully at least one of them will make it through to Div 1. Sounds like it was recorded in a communal bath, that, doesn't it? It does. Very echoey. It's a good point, though, that Johnny makes, because squeaky bum time, orange ends in football definitely, you know, a bit like John was saying with Eddie Waring in the early bath, that is a Sir Alex Ferguson, but it is used elsewhere now. So that's probably, it probably was a Division I, but now becomes a Division II because I think that would be used elsewhere. And I think business end of the season, we've already got in Division II.

53:01Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah. I think so. John in Missouri is up next. Hello, gents. For your consideration in the glossary and nostalgic memories, the Magic Sponge. Grant in Queensland also on this one. I think I've solved the injury crises that have afflicted a number of the top, top, top premiership teams in recent years. It's because these top teams stopped investing in that matte black bucket containing the Magic Sponge. A number of younger listeners will not be aware, but back in the pre-premiership era where there was no squad rotation only one sub and a playing surface resembling a peat bog players would go down but then be quickly revitalised by a visit from the trainer with their trusty black bucket and a quick dousing of ice cold water from a large yellow sponge which could appear to soak up around 3 ,000 litres of water I'm sure that the return of this valuable implement would regularly keep our valuable stars on the pitch and that John that is a good point because I think I would use I mean you don't see the magic sponge anymore but I would use that as a term, but there'd be loads of listeners who would think, what on earth, what on earth is he talking about?

54:05It's true, isn't it? And it's always yellow. Have you noticed? Never green, never red. It's got to be a magic. Where does the magic come from? I mean, I've never, I've had the sponge, but I don't think I've ever had a magic sponge. It's the sort of thing that, you know, David Nixon used to have, if you remember him, you know, Paul Daniels, they might have turned up with a magic sponge, but not Alistair Bruce Boar or Ian Dennis or John Murray. No chance. It's amazing though, isn't it, when you think about it, that the quality of the footballers from yesteryear, and yet they were treated with just a sponge.

54:40Often in the nether regions. When they've been hit with that heavy ball.

54:45Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah. Well, yeah. Tim in Nottingham's got our last one. I think we've discussed this one before. Finished with aplomb. It used to describe many a cool finish by strikers over the years, but I actually heard this the other week on Five Live from one of your golf pundits. Trish Johnson, when describing Rory McIlroy at the Masters. So I think it now falls into Division 2. Oh, I see. So it was in Div 1. McIlroy finished with a plomb. Golf. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's Div 2. I'm pretty sure, and you'd have worked with Mike Ingham, John. I'm pretty sure that Mike Ingham, he used to discourage me to say finish with a plomb.

55:21I'm pretty sure that Mike wasn't a fan of that expression. No. And we've all got our little idiosyncrasies, haven't we, certain things that we detest. I mentioned earlier about part and parcel. That was a Dave Bassett special. And then somebody said, what on earth does part and parcel mean? And I'm not sure either. But there's things we all hate and things we all try to avoid. My first editor told me never use the same word in the same sentence twice. And I've tried to stick to that, apart from if it's a quotation, like to be or not to be. That's fair enough. but otherwise there are words definitely to be, I hate temporarily, that's not a good word to come out with at any stage

56:05Ali Bruce-Ball:Simon Mann who's obviously a long time commentator on Test Match Special plies his trade was one that apparently Simon didn't like that's always stuck with me, I've never ever used it and it wasn't even Simon who told me it it was my brother who told me it because Simon had told him, so plies his trade I don't go with that one. But you're right, we all have our little peccadillo. So the summary of the glossary today, finish with aplomb is dropping down to Division 2. Early bath is going into Division 2, and John's actually given us where we very first heard that. Business end of the season, Division 2.

56:43Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah, it has to be because of other sports that's used elsewhere. Squeaky bum time, Division 2. So the ones we have to ask you, chaps, the magic sponge, is that going in Division 1 or Division 2? I'd go Division 2 because the Magic Sponge would have been used in Rugby League and Rugby Union. Division 2. Okay, so nothing's getting into Division 1 unless postage stamp is staying in Division 1 because we're not accepting. Because I've got to say I do disagree with landing it on a postage stamp. I'm trying to think of landing it. If you do land it, you know, so at the Masters, for example, you have to find very specific spots on the green.

57:21Ali Bruce-Ball:but I don't think I'd ever say landing it on a, maybe landing it on a dime or, no, it's turning on a sixpence, isn't it? Yeah. I think, yeah, I'm getting, yeah, I'm talking to myself here. I think that's staying in, I think that's staying in Division One, I think. Okay. And I was actually telling him, I was playing golf with my son the other day and I was talking to him about like a butterfly landing with sore feet, which is one. I don't know who first said that, but that's a brilliant description, isn't it, of something. coming to land very, very softly. Right, I think that's us. That is us. That is us for TCV today.

58:00Ali Bruce-Ball:John, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on. And also, just hearing those stories, it makes me realise that I've got to get myself up north and get myself invited to a social with you and Ian and John and others because I feel I'm missing out there. You'd be very, very, very welcome. Thanks for you around. John it's been a pleasure and I look forward to seeing you soon and I will glad to get you the first round in you're a good man Dan O I look forward to seeing you as well I know you enjoyed Lincoln Chelsea and you've been very welcome there as well listen to me sounding as a representative of Lincoln City Football it's been a pleasure talking to you both and to everybody absolute pleasure everyone keep the unintended pub names and glossary suggestions coming in as always.

58:48Ali Bruce-Ball:TCV at bbc.co.uk and you can send us a message or a voice note on the WhatsApp to 08000 289 369. That is it for this episode of the Football Daily and remember you can find each and every episode of the Commentator's View by scrolling down your Football Daily feed. John Murray is going to have to listen to that episode. He never listens back to the pod but he's going to have to listen to this one. He's going to have to listen to that one. Five Live Sports. BBC Women's Football Weekly. The latest news, insights and analysis from across the women's game. Dame Serena Vigman, welcome to the moment.

59:22Ali Bruce-Ball:Are we including Dame in your title now? You know how much an honour that is. And it's a remarkable team! And it's remarkable women! We want to play in a way that they can show their skills, so that's what we're trying to do. Win the World Cup, it's a dream. Listen. With the BBC Sounds app.