The Commentators' View: Mighty Maguire & Trubin’s triumph

0:00The Commentator's View on The Football Daily with Alistair Bruce Ball, John Murray and Ian Dennis. Hello, welcome to the Football Daily. I'm John Murray and this is the Commentator's View, where we five live commentators discuss the football, our travels and the language of football commentary. And we have a full house today. Ian Dennis and Alistair Bruce Ball are both here. And how good was it to have Jonathan Pearce on last week, Ian? Have you listened to it, Ali? Did you listen back to it? Yes, I listened back last night. So that was the first sort of little window I found. I thought, A, that would be a good thing to do before I come on today, having missed an episode just in case, you know, my name might have been taken in vain.

0:45Who knows? Not that I'm always thinking about myself, of course, but I just thought, B, I would also love to listen to it because I always think whenever you walk into a press room and you see Jonathan Pearce sitting there doing the same game as you, so if he's there for Match of the Day and you turn up to do Five Live, there's always a smile. there's always a story, there's always a joke he always puts me in a great mood and actually just, I mean there's this, you know you could do a whole season of podcasts with JP and his stories about football commentary but one thing I would say having listened to it last night as well, it just reminded me what, you know, ever since I started I remember first, you know, first meeting Jonathan Pearce and he's you know, always been so generous with his time, with his feedback with his help, he's just been a fantastic colleague and it was brilliant to hear him on the pod and also really lovely to hear how much he enjoys the um the golf coverage on the radio as well he clearly absolutely loves that so that that was nice to hear too i think we only actually scratched the surface with him as you say ali he's probably got so many stories some that probably aren't suitable for uh for a podcast but um no it was it was great to have him but john his presence actually meant that i forgot to bring up a subject with you last week because what you didn't tell us, John, is that you actually had a fall in the Arctic Circle.

2:05Well, I did tell you that the pavements and the roads of Buddha were lethal. The ice, the packed ice. And of course, when it came to nighttime, the frost would come down again. It would get even slippier. So we were very, very careful as we were walking around Buddha. but post-match we had to go round to the other side of the stadium so where the commentary position was in one stand the interviews and the press conference area was right on the opposite side of the stand so after the match finished our producer Gary Flintoff went off round and I was going to follow him later once we'd finished our commitments on Five Lives so I set off round there on my own, walking in the sort of semi-darkness around the stadium.

2:59And after the whole, I thought Gary, at some point, I thought Gary or Rob, our engineer, I thought they were nailed on certainties to go flying. And I was quite comfortable. I kept my balance quite well. And anyway, because I did need to step on a little bit to get round to Pep Guardiola's press conference. I was walking around. There were all these Norwegian fans coming the other way towards me. and I just put my foot on a particularly slippy piece of ice and just went whoop. Down I went, straight down, causing great mirth for the Buddha fans who'd already had a great night and then had the extra added bonus of seeing me go head over heels outside the stadium.

3:46But yes, there were no ill effects. You'll be delighted to hear. I wish I'd seen that. I was able to get straight back up onto my feet. So, but hang on, John, how was that discovered then? Did any of your colleagues see that or did you report that back? Thankfully, they didn't. I told them that. I confessed that I had actually had a little slip. That happened to me once in Minsk, in Belarus, on my first ever trip with the cycling team. So it was my first ever cycling gig and a commentate in the velodrome in Minsk. And again, it was winter. And in front of all these people, I was working with Rob Hales, who used to do the cycling with us on Five Live alongside Simon Brotherton before me and all the TV team as well.

4:27You know you sort of want to make a good impression. And the first night we went out, so we'd all worked together, coming down a hill, I did exactly that. And not only did the sound effect you just did there, John, was absolutely perfect, but properly whacked my head on the pavement behind me. So there was quite a lot of concern. It was just hugely embarrassing having to pick myself up in front of all these people I'd never really worked with or met before. I was actually carrying my bag, which, as you know, is quite heavy. So I think that helped to anchor me. And that meant I went straight down.

4:59So there was no danger of banging my head. But as we said at the time, you know, the number of matches in the UK that are called off because the area around the ground is dangerous for the supporters. Honestly, if they did that in Buda, they'd never play. Absolutely. Yeah, that match would not have been on in the UK, I'm telling you, for that reason. Anyway, that was two weeks ago. And obviously, Jonathan was on last week. And we've had lots of great feedback. I'm sure Ian, you'll have had the same thing as well. People who really enjoyed that. So if you want to listen to that and you haven't heard it, it's still on the Football Daily.

5:36And one other thing, because of various things, we've got an absolute mountain of emails and such like that we've not answered. So we are going to, in February, do a question and answer special. And we're going to try and get through as many of those as we can. So if you have anything that you want us to talk about or to ask us about the life of football commentators, then do that. On tcv at bbc.co.uk, on the emails. Or you can send us a voice note on 08000 289 369. and we will have more of those a little bit later on. We've also got some interesting correspondence about Clash of the Commentators, haven't we?

6:24You know, there's been a tidal wave of support for me after the controversial Clash of the Commentators a couple of weeks ago. So all that is to come. And I can tell you two as well, we've got a very good, because I know there was some unrest about the question last time we did Clash of the Commentators. this week's question people will enjoy it uh it is a classic of its type and uh and it's going to be you two isn't it anyway um let me just run through the five live commentaries that are coming up over the course of the coming week um excellent one ian for you for a saturday three o 'clock i'm not sure how this has ended up not being on live television but it is leeds against to Arsenal, three o 'clock, you and Paul Robinson.

7:09I know, I'm actually really, really looking forward to it, because obviously it affects both ends of the table, but the atmosphere as well will just be electric inside Ellen Road, so yeah, Paul Robinson, usual goal service, Leeds United Arsenal from three. Yeah, and I obviously saw them lose against Manchester United last week, and I thought Mikel Arteta was very interesting, because I interviewed him after the match, and I thought, what is he going to be like here? And I thought he really showed managerial leadership in the way that he came out and what he said after that. It was very much a strong don't panic message.

7:49So I think to see how they react tomorrow is going to be fascinating. Obviously, they had the game in midweek where they made all the changes. But yeah, he was able to rest in a number of key players, wasn't he? Rice, Ryering, Goal, Saka. So they will be refreshed and rejuvenated. but they'll need to be because as you know that can be a real bear pit yeah so if you're listening to this ahead of that give Ian a listen with Paul Robinson three o 'clock Saturday afternoon at the same time we're also offering commentary on Brighton Everton which is on Sports Extra I'm going to be I've got a London double this weekend Chelsea West Ham at 5 30 on the Saturday Pat Nevin's with me for that.

8:30And on Sunday at 4.30, I'm going to be at Tottenham Manchester City with Clinton Morrison. Ali, you are going to be involved in a Bruce double. Yes. I mean, Chris Sutton would have a field day with this because he obviously calls me Bruce and I'm working alongside Steve Bruce for the first time ever. I've never commentated with Steve before. So I'm doing Manchester United Fulham at Old Trafford with Steve Bruce, which also, John, just on the other side of the game you commentated on last weekend with Manchester United following up the derby win with some fantastic goals. Great performance against Arsenal.

9:05I think this one now is really interesting because this is a game where the expectations are up again. And it doesn't take much, does it, at Manchester United? We've seen it so many times over the last decade. A couple of performances right there back. Everything's great. And Fulham will be awkward. You know, Fulham will be awkward with a very informed Harry Wilson, amongst others, in there. So I'm really looking forward to seeing how Manchester United go about it. And whether, you know, whether, I mean, if they can suddenly make it three wins in a row and play in a similar style. Yeah, let's, you know, let's see how they respond.

9:41We're going to see how Arsenal respond. Let's see how Manchester United respond as well, actually. Yeah. And Steve Bruce, with everything that he's done in the game, all of that, I think he has taken charge of over a thousand matches, hasn't he? Steve Bruce all of that experience you know he is he's just got such a wealth of knowledge of the game so yeah so that is Ali with Steve on Sunday at 2 o 'clock we've got quite a rich offering on Sunday as well because at that time Aston Villa Brentford kicks off so that's on Sports Extra also Nottingham Forest Crystal Palace on Sports Extra 2 you can listen to commentary of that there and looking a little further ahead Ian next midweek Tuesday night Wednesday night the second leg of the League Cup semifinals, where, you know, the heavy money is on it to be an Arsenal-Manchester City final.

10:31But I don't know about you, I just feel the way that Chelsea got that result in Italy this week against Napoli, and the fact that Newcastle performed as they did when I was in Paris this week, I think gives them both a little bit of a hope. And also, you know, David Pleat will tell you that this is rather quirky, rather than anything, you know, the statistics. But history is against both because Newcastle, from memory, haven't won in 11 visits to the Etihad. They haven't scored in their last seven trips there. But if you look, there have been 32 defeats at home in the first leg in the history of the League Cup.

11:15And of those 32, only two have come from behind to win away in the second leg and the last was Arsenal at Tottenham in the late 1980s. So history is against both Chelsea and Newcastle United. However, as you say, law of averages and records are there to be broken. Yes, mathematicians would say that that possibly increases the chances of it actually happening the longer a run like that goes on. If Arsenal get through that semi-final, get through to the League Cup final, is that the first time we're going to hear talk of a potential quadruple? Well, what time does that properly surface? Is it once a team is into the final, still in all other competitions, top of the Premier League, qualified, top of the Champions League table as well?

12:04Well, we were talking this week about the possibility of Arsenal and Manchester City playing each other in the League Cup final. They've still got to play each other in the Premier League. They could yet play each other in the Champions League. and they could yet play each other in the FA Cup final. Yeah. So, chances of that happening, Ian, with your knowledge of odds, slim. Thank you. Thank you very much for that expert analysis. But just talking odds and numbers and permutations and everything, John, how was your... Well, both of you, because you were both on duty, football-wise, in the Champions League in midweek, and we've obviously discussed the format on the pod over the last couple of seasons.

12:47It was a thrilling night of Champions League football. And as I know you've said before, John, you were half commentating on football and half commentating on a league table.

12:59It's eventful. I'll give it that. It's eventful. It's fast moving. But same as last year, there is something about it that leaves me feeling dissatisfied.

13:18because there is too much going on. I know I said this in the build-up. There's too much going on, and I just feel there is something of the manufactured about it and that it is more of an event that is made for TV rather than a proper footballing product, if you know what I mean. You know, if you give me an FA Cup tie or, as I've said many times, a group of four where you're concentrating on one match or the other match, that is proper, that is more as it's supposed to be when the concentration is more on the match that is taking place in front of you. Do you think that the Benfica fans were aware of the importance of that goal and what it did?

14:10I'd love to know if the Benfica fans really knew that they needed to get the fourth goal. What about the Buda Glimp fans who were in, you know, when Buda Glimp were hovering above and below the line, the elimination line, you know, were they totally across what the situation was? Did they realize that what they were doing was enough as it happened? And also from the English club's point of view, the peril of finishing in the top eight or not finishing in the top eight you know they need to win this to avoid two matches in February is valid from a footballing point of view but it's not do or die stuff is it no I mean the difference for Manchester City and the jeopardy with Manchester City it really only came very very late on with you know the results elsewhere for what was meant to be the most complicated route of all the English clubs it actually didn't turn out to be that complicated at all.

15:12And it would have meant them playing, after nine games in 28 days in January, that have played another nine games in 28 days in Feb, had they not made the last eight. Now they're looking at seven games in 28 days. So I suppose in that sense, that would have put a little bit of an extra burden on a stretch squad dealing with injuries. is for those who say the competition lacks jeopardy, bearing in mind that going into that final round, there were only four sides who'd been eliminated out of the 36. So 32 still had something to play for. So that creates a little bit of jeopardy if you look at the wider picture.

15:56But I agree with John that the chaotic nature probably still needs refining in some way. And again, I think it's designed for people who are not at the matches. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think it's better than the old group stage. Yeah, I'm not completely sold on that. I don't think there's a, I don't think there's a, I think that there are still matches here. And throughout the course of the eight matches, you know, I've covered exciting games like Newcastle and Barcelona and Real Madrid and Manchester City in this league phase. and still at the end of it, you think, well, they are both going to go through, which they all did.

16:43Yeah. And John, to your point about, you know, Newcastle dropping out of the top eight and that still not being, I mean, it is jeopardy in a sense. They've got to come through another tie to try and get to the last 16. And I don't think, they won't take Monaco or Carabag for granted, but you'd fancy them to do that. And obviously they've got to play the two extra games. it won't bother Real Madrid that much I think that they've got to do that but I think their topple from they started the night third in the table lost 4-2 away to a Jose Mourinho managed Benfica team and had two men sent off in the process that was quite a spectacular collapse mini collapse on you know in the final round of games and Sporting popped in there Sporting took advantage got a late goal and popped in there I think many of the big clubs probably are influenced by the fact that PSG last season finished 15th in the league phase and yet really stepped on and came stronger and stronger and won it in the end.

17:41And, you know, I think as well, in fact, it was pointed out to me that Tottenham finished fourth and in their eight matches, they won one match against another team that finished in the top 24. Wow. Although, as you mentioned on Wednesday night, John, the significance now with that change in the rules of finishing in the top four is going to give a lot of weight to those teams, isn't it? Knowing that they've got the advantage of playing in the last 16 and the quarterfinals for the top four, the second leg at home. Yeah, we've had a piece of correspondence actually from a BBC colleague of ours, Hamish Marshall, a regular voice on Five Live, who says, I have a Champions League slash Europa League idea.

18:29what about the team finishing first in the group stage gets to choose their opponents in the next round after the ninth to 24th playoff matches have concluded teams two to seven get to choose in that order too it would at least give teams some advantage for finishing higher up the table it would also add drama to the draw and needle to the tie with the team chosen as opponents having an extra point to prove. Currently you could finish top and get a tougher tie than if you had finished fifth. What do you think? I mean, that's fun. That's never going to happen. I like the idea. It's like him back at school, isn't it, when he used to line up?

19:10Yeah. We'll have Buddha Glimp, please. Yeah, what do you think of that idea? I like it, but I agree with you that it will never happen. And actually, another mention for our our excellent production friend, Gary Flintoff, who said to me in the aftermath of Wednesday night, he said, do you know what? The best format would be just straight knockout. How the European Cup actually started. What a revolutionary idea that would be to actually just pay two leg knockout ties right from the start. No seeding. That will definitely not happen. Well, you could seed it, you wouldn't seed it, but it doesn't matter, as Ian says.

19:49There's absolutely no chance for that. But that would be the best format. Agreed. I mean, if you went like the FA Cup, no seeding, well, exactly, you could get anything. Yeah, it'll never happen. Never happen. No, and as I've said a couple of times on the radio this week, I wouldn't be at all surprised. We could have a scenario where there are six English clubs in the last eight of the Champions League. And I would not be at all surprised if UEFA start thinking about taking away the country protection from the league phase of the competition. So that, because again, I keep talking about fairness of the league phase.

20:30And if the Premier League is proved to be significantly stronger than the other leagues, I don't think it's necessarily fair that those teams don't play each other in the league phase of the competition. Yeah, agreed. Yeah, agreed, agreed. Anyway, that's the Champions League. And we'll have more commentaries coming up next month. from that and indeed for the rest of the season on the way to Budapest. But we didn't get around, did we, to any of your unintended pub names from sports commentary last week. So previous examples included the Absolute Corker wine bar, the full-time whistle for post-match VAR debates, and Gerrard's Cross as an unintended railway station.

21:14Palace fan Tom says, Love the podcast and the insight you all bring. Thank you, Tom. During the Tottenham versus West Ham commentary, I think I heard an unintended pub name said by Stephen Warnock when describing the Somerville goal. He just backs Pedro Porro into the penalty area and Porro shows him inside. Connor Gallagher backs off him. And as he takes the shot, I think this comes off the backside of Castellanos. I think it's his goal. So the backside of Castellanos could be located in the rolling hills of Castilla y León in northern Spain, says Tom, just outside a tiny village called Castellanos, where the locals may joke that the pub is literally the backside of Castellanos.

22:01Local craft cerveza and Spanish craft ale would be serviced along with a small but excellent list of Rioja. Picture clay-washed walls, wooden beams, and flagstone floors and maybe a few old farming tools and faded postcards on the wall. Excellent, Tom. Well done. I'm there already, Tom. I'm going to survey the mass. Does survey the mass. Did you get to your Paris night spot, John, after the game on there? Yes, yes, very much so. You did? You got back in then, did you? Yeah. How was your friend? Yeah, he was great. And he enjoyed the match, but he also thoroughly enjoyed, as did all of the PSG fans.

22:42And this little brasserie that we go to, hardly ever... Is it cold? I'm not going to give the name because it's a little secret. And part of the reason is it's always full of PSG fans. I've hardly ever been in there when there have been fans of the English clubs in there. So they were absolutely delighted by the fact that Marseille got knocked out by the Benfica goal. so there were lots of smiling faces in there but yeah, our friend he produced for us later the evening an excellent plate of grilled sausages they were delicious Simon in Scarborough gets in touch I too am part of the trending band of cockapoo walkers often seen grinning and laughing as I walk my two lunatic dogs whilst listening to the pod anyway, I believe for a number of weeks that I've stumbled across a glaring omission in the list of unintended pub names, and that is the false nine.

23:42I have little idea of what it really means in a footballing context, but I love the phrase. I have once or twice thrown it into a pub conversation to test the water. Given the reaction, I don't think many people know what it means. Some nod knowingly. Others return with a 4-4-2 comment or earnest mutterings about buying a striker. I'd like to imagine the false nine as a sports bar with wall-to-wall chalkboards and magnetic counters where people can discuss and demonstrate tactical ideas. The bar would sell Target Man IPA, Messi Drop Cocktails and the Firmino Press. I'm writing the business plan as soon as I've sent this email.

24:19Can I also propose the false nine for the glossary Division One for football exclusive terms? That's excellent from Simon. I love that. And also that does include, as he has purposely said, Target Man. that's a phrase for the glossary I don't think that's in there is it? Target man that's probably Division 1 as well isn't it? yeah and I'm surprised we've not done False 9 in the glossary I'm surprised by that do you think there's someone somewhere who's about to open a pub a football related pub and he's lacking a little bit of inspiration for the name of the pub and then all of a sudden he stumbles across the podcast and then goes I'll tell you what I'll call it the False 9 or the target man.

25:03Toby from Winchester has one. He says, whilst en route to the shops, he wasn't walking his dog. I was listening to the five live commentary of Newcastle versus Wolves. Chow will collect it for Newcastle and passes back to his goalkeeper, the pink Pope and Nick Pope all in bright light pink this afternoon. I like it. Could you carry that off, Clinton? I think you could. Oh, 100%. Yeah, no, you could. I have pink boots and everything. Yeah, yeah. You've got to embrace it. What about John Murray? Do you think he could carry that off? Absolutely no chance. Well, I agree with Clinton. I don't think he could carry it off.

25:38But John from Newcastle, not our John, another one, the Pink Pope would probably be an establishment very heavy on the cocktails. The more fruity and flowery, the better. Nick Pope is very much the gift that keeps giving to the unintended pub names. And I think I might even, when he made penalty save the other night, I might have said the Spectacular Pope. which would also be a great pub. The spectacular pub. That was just an absolute gimme because it was so distinct, the pink and the alliteration with the P. It was just a tapping. The easy tapping. Yeah, and I suspect that's not Nick Pope's last contribution either.

26:21Carmen in Bromyard, Herefordshire. I don't think I've ever been there. Bromyard in Herefordshire? No, no. no could be a venue for the that we haven't mentioned for a long time well we are looking for a venue for you know for the world tour Herefordshire's lovely as well isn't it do you think they'll have the target man or the false knight in Bromyard anyway Carmen hello to you Carmen she says hello to the Holy Trinity she calls us that sealed it we're going to Bromyard good to see Carmen Yes, I hope she doesn't have a rollers in that night. Probably don't remember that. Anyway, Carmen says, Because I don't have a dog to walk, I listen in the gym, which is made almost bearable by your excellent discussions on football language and Ian's knitwear.

27:19It's been a while since I heard this unintended pub name. Towards the end of the Macclesfield-Crystal Palace FA Cup match, We're going back to that again. Summariser Paul Robinson said this. I think I was looking to our left-hand side to dodge these two posts in between us to see the 18-yard box of the Macclesfield goalkeeper is going to be a common theme in the last knockings of this game. Carmen says, in my mind, the last knockings would undoubtedly be an old-fashioned pub in the middle of nowhere, a real spit-and-sawdust place which sells nothing more exotic than a pickled egg and is somewhere you can still get a pint of mild.

27:58Frequented solely by old men playing dominoes, each time the door opened, the entire place would fall silent and all heads would turn to see who dared to enter. I feel ABB is a bit too metropolitan for the last knockings, but Ian would fit right in, if only because the regulars would refer to him as youngun. I hope you feel this is worthy of inclusion. that was that from Carmen would be akin to the scene from American Werewolf in London when at the very start they walk into that bar which is on the moors isn't it somewhere the slaughtered lamb the slaughtered lamb yeah Brian Glover's in there Brian Glover's one of the actors could be the last knockings I'd be happy to drink in there Yeah, I bet you would.

28:53Yeah. Yeah. And actually, hearing that has reminded me. Did you see, was it last week's edition of Private Eye in the Coleman Balls? We had a holy trinity in there from the Macclesfield match. Me, Hare Chapman and Paul Robinson were all in Coleman Balls that week of Private Eye. And what did you all say? Why were you in there? I can't remember what it was now. I should have brought it on. Chapman will dispute his, won't he? Yeah, almost certainly. The amount of times he would get booked for arguing with the ref, actually. I mean, I know he... Honestly, you can imagine it, can't you? Dan in Bristol.