The Debrief: Arsenal beat Chelsea to go through to the League Cup final

0:00On the Football Daily Podcast, The Debrief with Kelly Case. Arsenal will be heading to Wembley for the League Cup final after beating Chelsea 1-0 at the Emirates to secure a 4-2 win on aggregate. Kai Havertz scored the only goal with the last kick of the game in stoppage time. They will face either Manchester City or Newcastle United on Sunday, the 22nd of March. Ian Dennis, former Arsenal defender Masha Upson and ex-Chelsea player Frank Kirby watched the action at the Emirates. Ian Dennis, after 53 minutes, you said, I'd be surprised if this finishes nil-nil. I mean, you were close to being proved wrong.

0:39We had to wait right to the end. I mean, actually, the tie actually had jeopardy right up until that moment, didn't it? Because Chelsea were difficult opponents. I thought it was a compelling cup tie. It was fascinating from a tactical point of view. But for all of the pressure that Chelsea applied, you have to go back. I think probably Kepa was only tested once late on in the first half where Fernandes hit that right-footed effort and Kepa made the flying save. I mean, chances were the premium, but because what was at stake, I think, made it intriguing because of the pressure that Arsenal were having to contend with.

1:14They had to be really watchful. I mean, all of a sudden you had Garnaccio, Palmer, Estevão off the bench by Liam Rossini, who went across on his own to applaud the travelling support, who reciprocated by applauding him. I think the Chelsea supporters appreciated the endeavours from the Chelsea players. so I think whilst chances were a premium overall throughout the tie what was at stake and you could see what it meant to the Arsenal players and supporters as they celebrated wildly when Havertz went around the goalkeeper for a cool finish in the 97th minute as as you say they go through now to Wembley on the 22nd of March it meant a lot to them because they'd lost their previous four semi-finals so I think psychologically this can be a positive now for Arsenal to banish any negativity because had they lost it you know what the narrative would have been Yeah, and we'll come to the performance itself shortly.

2:00But Matt, first of all, to reflect on what it means. There were wild celebrations, not just among the Arsenal supporters, but on the Arsenal bench, the substitutes and the backroom staff running onto the pitch after that goal with the final kick of the game. That just shows how important it was to reach Wembley. Yeah, it's massive and it will be celebrated. I mean, the dressing room will be absolutely buzzing right now. and to be honest I think there was also an element of maybe a bit of relief because like Denno said it never felt like there wasn't anything in any moment in the game there was jeopardy all the way through even though Arsenal had the upper hand it just felt like something was going to happen.

2:39Mikel Arteta was his usual energetic on the edge outside the technical area you see him like that in every game but it's cup football so it has a different feel to it and you could sense that and his reaction when the goal went in I mean he just turned to the bench and you know the whole Arsenal bench were off on the pitch running over the game was over and you know the celebration started right then. Fran in terms of any criticism of Arsenal over the past few years it's been about not getting a trophy under Mikel Arteta in terms of the full seasons that he's been in charge and also at times about letting nerves get the better of them.

3:17How composed did you think that performance was? Yeah, I mean, you could see what the game plan was. You could see that they just wanted to keep control of the game. They wanted to keep possession. You know, there was a couple of moments where they changed the tempo to try and go forward, but not not really ever. I think obviously we spoke about Kepa making one save. I don't think Sanchez had to do much either in the Chelsea goal. So I think it was a bit of a trying to work each other out, I think, the whole game until it started to open up with the substitutions that came on, with the state of the game, with Chelsea having to really push forward.

3:49And I think you could see with Arsenal, the way that they celebrated, you would have thought that they'd scored the winner. Not that they were already 1-0 up the way that they ran on and celebrated. Of course, they knew then they were going to Wembley, so they were going to have that impact. But you could just see how much effort both teams put into the performance today, especially out of possession, because each team kind of just was happy to have the ball and keep moving it a little bit. And you could see that they were just both just relieved when they scored the goal. do you think both managers kind of put their principles to the side a little bit for this game and just treated it as what do we need to do that's how it looked to me it was kind of like you know both managers will have their philosophies and principles about how they want a team to play whereas this game was so one-off it was just right we're going to do this and okay if you're doing that we'll need to do this and they just adapted to each other really didn't they yeah i think so and i think that that makes a difference with the aggregate score as well when you're coming in and you've already got some goals behind you or you're 1-0 down.

4:45You know when you do training sessions and you do situations where you're 1-0 down and you've got five minutes to go. Yeah, that's how it felt throughout the game. And you could see that tactically. And Liam spoke about it throughout the week that he was going to conserve the energy and then in the second half they were going to really push for it. And I think they did that. I just don't think Chelsea created enough big chances to probably come away with a result here. I don't think Arsenal did either, but Chelsea's the team that's chasing. They're the ones that have to create them chances and even though they had the possession a lot in the second half towards the end, they didn't really create anything with it.

5:17You think Palmer could have come on early for it? I thought Cole Palmer had a big impact and I thought he was the player that is able to just get on the ball and he's so relaxed, he's always got time. You know, top players, it looks easy, doesn't it? And he just fired one or two passes and broke lines with passes and set players free that no one else did all game. And I thought maybe just him featuring a little bit more in the game, I mean, that wasn't the plan. He obviously had that all set up for those timings, but I thought he made a big difference, Cole Palmer. I almost think that in terms of the headline from the game, Arsenal reaching Wembley is clearly the headline.

5:52But in terms of assessing the performances, maybe Chelsea are the more interesting story here in terms of what Liam Rossini did with this side and the way that he set them up, the way that they managed to stifle Arsenal. I think they limited to Xhocres to just like a handful of touches of the ball. Yeah, you could see that they've definitely been working on that out of possession in terms of when do we press, when do we sit off, when are we going to let Declan Rice and Supermende come lower and get the ball. That's fine, you can have it. We're not going to chase you, we're not going to give you them spaces.

6:23And you could see in the second half especially that Arsenal resulted a lot to long ball. They went long quite a lot to try and stretch the game because they weren't quite getting it in their pockets that they do like. And Eze was quite quiet in the second half. I don't think we got to see him much in the second half. And I think that's down to how Chelsea defended and how they were really compact when they didn't have the ball. But, you know, it takes one moment. It takes a moment. And Arsenal knew it was coming. They knew that Chelsea were having to push forward. They knew they were going to get a counterattack at some point in the game.

6:48Maybe they didn't expect it with the final kick of the game. But you're right. Those opportunities were coming as Chelsea were pushing for the goal. And as you said, potentially Cole Palmer could have come on a little bit earlier because we know Leon Rossino does like to make those changes and isn't afraid to make them sometimes at half-time. No, absolutely. I mean, the plan I've got, I think the plan was effective for this game. When you have a player like Palmer, he's such a maverick for me. He just drifts in areas and he looks so relaxed. You almost think, does he really want the ball? But when he gets on it, he's so smooth and he sees things and it's simple and it's early and it's in his flow.

7:31I don't think he thinks about it, he just does it. And he's a special player in that sense. And I think getting him back to the levels that we've seen before, I mean, he's just an absolute game changer. So to not have him at those levels has affected Chelsea. So to get him back and get him into that rhythm is going to be key. And maybe maybe to hold on to another. It's all a little bit up in the air, but, you know, he's such a top player in my eyes. Yeah, I always say with players like Cole Palmer, it looks like everything slows down when you get the ball. You know, he just everything. Everyone else is running in slow motion and he can just find them passes.

8:03And I think it would have helped Chelsea a lot of him to come on earlier. whether or not he's fit enough to play at this level right now in terms of obviously he's been coming into the games he hasn't probably played as much as Liam probably wanted him to but I mean you could see the quality that he has that the passes he always looks to play between two players he was fine and then passes in between the Arsenal midfield and especially towards the end of the second half he was definitely coming lower because he wanted to impact going forward forward but yeah I mean having him on the pitch as much as they can is definitely a real importance for Chelsea Let's get some Arsenal reaction now.

8:35George Cummins is with Jurian Timber. Thanks, Kelly. He's smiling now. Jurian, just sum up how you're feeling. You're going off to Wembley. What a result. Yeah, no, it's not my first time. I want to say it's my first time. My second time going to Wembley, but I think it's always special. I think that atmosphere at the end just makes me smile as well. And I think this team deserves it. And yeah, on to Wembley. Just talk us through that celebration at the end when Kai Havertz runs the keeper and he scores. What was you thinking? did you know he was going to score first of all before we talk about the celebration?

9:04Well first of all I didn't know if he was going to pass or not so he went around the keeper and he did it amazing and he came in amazing as well and to have this kind of players come off the bench is an amazing thing I think and the reaction of the fans and the players I think you could see how happy we were for him and for the team but I think this team deserves it and yeah it was an amazing feeling and I think also for Kai being out so long coming back and then the love he gets from the fans and everyone I think says a lot as well and we love him as well and he did amazing today. You've been at the Emirates a couple of seasons now have you ever heard the stadium like that when that goal went in?

9:41Yeah that's what I mean I have to think really good if I want to think back about a moment like this but I think this was the first time I felt it like this you could feel it coming you know he goes around the goal He knows the stadium is going to go crazy. I've had some crazy nights here at the Emirates, but this is definitely one of them because the goal was so late as well. Just talk to us about Chelsea. It was a great semi-final. You go there, you win. But how hard did they make you work for it? Chelsea is a great team. They have some amazing players. I think you could see that tonight. I think they're bringing in Palmer and Esteval.

10:17They have amazing players coming off the bench. It was never going to be easy. I think if you win over two legs twice, first away game and now the home game, I think you've done an amazing job. So, credits to the team. I think I deserve going to Wembley. And just talk to us about the ambitions of the season. Top of the Premier League, you've topped the Champions League group, you're off to Wembley now, you're still in the FA Cup. What's the burning desire from this team, what you can achieve? Because the potential is there, isn't it? The potential is there, definitely. The desire is there as well.

10:48I think we are very hungry. I think you can see that. We're in an amazing position. At the same time, we have nothing still. So, what I said, it's amazing going to Wembley. Still a final to play and a lot to play for this season. We just have to go and grab it. George Cummins there with Jurian Timber, who doesn't sound perhaps quite as excited as his words would suggest, but he's clearly delighted to be going to Wembley with Arsenal. He said, we deserve it. And that's what Declan Rice, when he was speaking to ITV, has said. We have a group who really want it. Whatever team comes at us, we're ready for it.

11:18When you play a team like Chelsea, they throw so many things at you physically and mentally but he went on to say we deserve it the last three or four years we've been at the top of the Premier League competing and got really close but we haven't been good enough and then talks about how that means they've got extra desire extra fire in their belly this season and maybe that's why we saw the scenes that that we did at the end they have such a great opportunity this isn't the the trophy that they want the most this season but it could be the first step to it man it's been a few years in the making hasn't it I mean, there's been a steady build-up to this place for Arsenal, and there's been some difficult times.

11:52Mikel Arteta has been at the club a while now, laying the foundations, building the kind of ethos and the team and the togetherness that I think they have. I think that's a strong part of what he's built at the club. But I like what Juryn Timber said. We're in an amazing position, but at the same time, we have nothing. They haven't got nothing yet. And we're at that time of the year where that really is the case. But if you flip it, had they lost, then it would have been a fifth successive semi-final that they'd have lost. Then that would have then had the narrative going into, oh, will Arsenal now bottle it with the league?

12:27And I think that's why, and we said this at the very start, psychologically, this competition, Jose Mourinho put great faith in this competition to get silverware early, when it was either February or March, whenever the final is back in the day, get it in the trophy and then see what you can, and Arsenal are going to be in exactly the same position now. they've got a chance to win silverware on March 22nd and then all of a sudden by then they can then use that to go into either the Premier League or the Champions League.

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13:48Let's hear from the Arsenal boss, Mikel Arteta. Yeah, it was a big night. It ended up in a perfect way, I would say, because we knew that was going to be a really top one, a really competitive side, full of quality, and the conditions make it a real battle today as well. So I think we competed so well. We understood what we had to do. It was a game of very, very fine margins, and I think we'll find a way to win it. In terms of the team's mentality, obviously semi-final defeats last season, just what will that do tonight, knowing that you're in the final, and the players, when they wake up tomorrow morning, how are they going to feel?

14:22Probably they're more convinced that we can go all the way, regardless who we play against. But that's something that you have to show every single day. So we've done it tonight, three days ago. Now we have to go on Saturday and do it again in the Premier League, and this is not going to stop. So we're going to need everybody. I'm so pleased because everybody plays their minutes in the competition up to the final except for David, and that's because they all deserve it. And just in terms of Chelsea, two really tough legs, wasn't it? I mean, what you want to achieve, I'm guessing it's going to be hard, what you want to achieve this season.

14:55They pushed you all the way and you've got more challenges ahead. Yes, and as I said, any team that we're going to play in any competition like stages is going to be like this. So get used to it, enjoy it, because those are the challenges that we want to be part of and go for it. And just one word, Uri and Timber said to me that's the best he's had the atmosphere at the Emirates since he's been there. So what do you want from the crowd going forward? Well, I'm really pleased that the players feel that way because it makes such a difference. Emotionally, I think they handled the game really well.

15:23They really made an impact. So let's maintain that because with these standards, I think it's going to be really tough for the opponents. Fran, does that first piece of silverware change an individual player? Does it change the mentality of a team, of a football club? It makes you want to do it again and again and again because the feeling that you get when you're able to lift a trophy, you're able to celebrate with your fans, it's something as a top professional athlete you strive for, you want every single time. And for this team, they've got a fantastic squad. You look at the players that they bring on, you've got Kai Havertz coming on, you've got Trossard coming on.

16:01They've got everything in place now to be able to go and keep going and keep going. And, you know, if they get to win at Wembley and win that first trophy, then it just takes them further, like you said, going into the league and giving them that confidence and going, oh, we've got a taste of this. I want to do it again this year. And then I want to do it again. And then I want to do it again. They've, you know, they've got nothing, but they're in for all of it. And getting that first taste of it and getting that feeling, you saw the crowd here today, the fans, when they were just cheering. It was incredible in here when they scored that goal.

16:27You can see how much it means to the fans. So imagine if they win a trophy and then they go on and hope, you know, hoped for themselves that they win the Premier League. Matt, you asked Fran earlier on about the managers kind of putting aside their principles for this game. How important do you think that the changes that Arsenal have made in their backroom team have been to maybe the, not the mentality towards that, but their thinking in terms of being able to be more adaptable and knowing when to go for it and knowing when to play slightly differently? Yeah, I think the adapting thing is big.

16:59and maybe you only learn that through failure and through getting that wrong and I think again he's a young coach isn't he it's his first sample of this kind of stuff in terms of Premier League trophy and I think that he's always developing and learning all the time along with his staff but they're picking that up and they're getting better and better and the team's getting better and I think it's had such a almost like simultaneous growth between probably the manager and the coaches and everyone and the players at the same time. It's been like a joint journey, really. So that's something that also, I think, in terms of longevity, could bring quite a nice bond into the group, could stay there for a while and they could be a real challenge.

17:41I mean, staying at the top is a different requirement. And that'll be another step they'll have to take. So they're doing it all together. And I think, you know, Mikel Arteta, for me, has really developed in that sense. Karma, he got that yellow card, didn't he, for being too much. And then you saw him the next reaction. and he wanted to go and it's like, no, I'm going to step off and I'm going to keep my call. And I think that side of it, you really do develop and he's developed that really well for me. You get the impression that Gabriel Ainsay, who's brought into his coaching staff, has had a positive impact with the mentality side of things, don't you?

18:11Yeah, I agree with that. I can see. I think he laid a lot of foundations with the group. And eventually what happens is people like Declan Rice, like Martin Odell, they run it. So when it's player driven and you can step back as a head coach or whatever and go, well, the players understand it now. You can achieve great things. I think that's when it really picks up momentum because the players are driving it. They see it. They see the success. They enjoy it and they buy in and then they want to run it themselves. And I think those dressing rooms you're in, they're the ones where managers just, they love it.

18:45Because when it's driven by the players, it's so powerful. And we can get the thoughts of Chelsea head coach Liam Rossinia. Disappointed. Frustrated to not go through to a Wembley final. We felt coming here, as difficult a task as it is, to be a goal down. We felt like we really, really had a good chance if we got the game plan right in terms of the energy we had in the team, the absentees we had, in terms of the way we wanted the game to go, a lot of positive things. But the result leaves a bit of taste in the mouth because we didn't win. That's what we're here to do. in terms of that fight in the team, the intensity of our press, the way we defended set plays, the desire to defend our goal.

19:25Their goal comes last minute with throwing 11 men into their box. It's a natural occurrence. But in terms of what the players gave me, I couldn't ask for much more. But in terms of the result, which is why we're here, you always want to win the games that you play. Fran, just to go back to a point that we started talking about with Chelsea, which is what they come away from this game with. Yes, they've lost both legs of this semi-final. But in terms of the way they played, in terms of the way that Liam Rossini set them up, I think that's a back three for the first time since March 2024 for Chelsea.

20:01So it's an unfamiliar setup for them. And yet, to a certain extent, it's worked for them. Yeah, I think they can take huge confidence from the game. I think, you know, they really nullified Arsenal and that's not easy to do at the Emirates. I think hasn't had a long time to work on it. Players are playing out of position, having to learn their out of possession, in possession. Gusto was coming inside into the midfield, Enzo Fernandes on the left-hand side. These are not their typical positions, so they had to learn that. You could see as well the effort level that the players are putting into.

20:33I think it's a little bit what Matt said. You can see that it's starting to rub off a little bit the way that Liam wants them to press aggressively, run and run back for each other. Arteta's had to build that over for however many years that he's been at Arsenal. And Liam is trying to build that into now what Chelsea want to become in the next few years. And you can see that the players are buying into it. I think there was no one kind of turning around when it didn't go right. No one's turning around going, oh, why weren't you there? There was no arms in the air. There was no kind of, you're not where you're supposed to be.

21:00It was right, OK, I'm in the wrong position. I've got to put my head down, I've got to run. And those are the kind of players that you want and you want to build your team around. Because you look at Enzo Fernandes tonight, I think he covered every blade of grass with the effort level that he did out of position. and then you can see at the end of the game he was getting involved in possession as well. He was still driving the team forward and those are the players that you want your other players to look at and go, look at him, he is absolutely desperate for us to win this game and those are the ones that you want in your team.

21:26Esteve was in Brazil this week on compassionate leave and so he came off the bench to play for Chelsea. Do you think they missed him from the beginning and in terms of being at his absolute best? Yeah, I think so. I think obviously they had to put Enzo Fernandes out on the left, Liam De Lape on the right. It's not their normal positions to play in. And Esteban is someone who, you know, he can give you something. He can make something happen out of nothing. He has the confidence. He's young. He has that kind of fearless attitude when he goes one-by-one with a player. And I think they missed that, especially in the first half.

21:58I don't think, you know, you had Liam De Lape who was really powerful and he wanted to get around, but there wasn't really them players on the pitch who could go one-by-one and be really confident in them areas. So him coming on, I think similar with Palmer, he probably could have come on a little bit earlier just to kind of give Chelsea a little bit more because he got the ball a couple of times. Same with Garnaccio, I don't think Garnaccio got into the game enough when he did come on but maybe having a little bit longer would have helped them. I mean it worked well for them out of possession didn't it?

22:22Yeah absolutely. You know the responsibility, the physicality of the lap, you've got Enzo like I say puts a real shift in, Gael Pedro would press in so out of possession they would I mean it made the first half near impossible for Arsenal to get any momentum at all and it was great and you think right okay then it needed the gear shift and I think that's the point I think it just didn't quite have enough from those players whether or not it's because Arsenal started to to maybe be a bit more dogged or just they got a bit fatigued I mean how many games is it then oh 28 in 28 days for Chelsea yeah eight matches so you're going to get to a place where you know it's a big requirement to then make that push with half an hour to go given what you've given in this cup tie already?