The Debrief: Ben White booed on England return

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1:00on ad spend of major ad networks. Spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get $250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com slash broadcast. That's linkedin.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. On the Football Daily Podcast, The Debrief with Aaron Paul.

1:24Aaron Paul:Welcome to the Football Daily Podcast coming to you from Wembley Stadium after England's one all draw with Uruguay in a World Cup warm-up friendly. Paul Robinson, Ian Dennis and Sammy Mockbell here with us. Gentlemen, an uninspiring 90 minutes. I want to say we've learned something tonight. I don't know what we've learned, but we've learned something tonight, Sammy. Yeah, I think we have. Look, I think we've learned that perhaps the fringe players aren't as good as Thomas Tuchel hopes they may be and that the 11 or 12 or 13 that he's got who will join up next week, or actually with the squad now, remain the core of his hopes of England winning the World Cup in the summer.

2:13I think anyone really took their chance today. If I was to single one out, Harry Maguire was pretty solid at the back. It was a Harry Maguire-like performance, the kind of ones that we've seen for the past decade. So it's nothing that really grabs the attention. But looking elsewhere on the pitch, particularly at the attacking talent, no one really took their chance. Paul Robinson, you talked about it in the first half

2:40Aaron Paul:with Dominic Solanke. He said that it's a shoot on sight sort of motive from him because it's the trial game. It's the game to try and get on the plane. And he fluffed his lines. Did Dominic have a learn as well? It's difficult in that situation. I described it before the game and during the first half. We're not looking at England as a collective tonight, as much as we will judge the performance, the result and the performance as a team. It wasn't a performance to be judged as a team. It was for individuals. And you got the impression watching that game that individuals were trying too hard in certain situations.

3:19Rather than being a collective unit and playing as a cohesive team, they looked like a bunch of trialists trying to impress a manager to get through to the next stage of the trial if you like. Dominic Solanke is going to be judged on goals. Goal scorers are judged on goals. He got two opportunities in the first half. One was from 30 yards, one was from 25 yards. Opportunities were few and far between and you could see in his mind he's thinking I'm going to have a shot, I'm going to try and get a shot off here. I want to get on the score sheet because that's what I'll be judged on. He had what, 60, 65 minutes then Dominic Calvert-Lewin came on.

3:49he had probably the game's best chance other than the goal from Ben White free header from inside the six yard box but again from another set play it was just it just lacked cohesion it lacked any type of team performance and it really did it it's it stunk of a performance of players that were playing for for a place on the plane and you know for self gain rather than for team game and it was it was a difficult watch at times if you if you're Danny Danny Welbeck watching that at home this evening, surely you're thinking, I deserve a shot. Well, if you're Ivan Toni, what are you thinking as well?

4:20You look at the amount of goals that he scored in the Saudi Pro League this season. Oli Watkins as well. There's a lot of players there. Danny Welbeck, Ivan Toni, Oli Watkins. There's a lot of goals there. But again, it's a tough one, isn't it? It's Harry Kane. He plays. If Harry Kane doesn't play, then we're looking at the options. But on Thomas Tuchel's side of things, he gets to see Solanke in that situation when he's only got 60 minutes. he gets to see Calvert-Lewin when he's only got 30 minutes because that's all they're going to get if Harry Kane isn't there. So that's a situation that they're going to have to perform in.

4:50But we talk about Dominic Solanke and Dominic Calvert-Lewin, they're two strikers that this season pretty much play within the width of the 18-yard box. They rely on service. And with that England performance tonight, they've got no service whatsoever.

5:02Aaron Paul:Ian Dennis, we've given you a bit of time to fester, if you like, on what was a very, very flat evening at Wembley. I mean, by the time the Uruguay goal went in and we saw that penalty and had it on time, the majority of the stadium had cleared out. They turfed up. It's not really conducive to a nation that should be billing itself and bigging itself up for a tournament in the States. No, but, you know, you were missing players out of the 11 who are going to start and will go to the World Cup. Declan Rice, Anderson, Rodgers, Gordon, Saka, Harry Kane, you know, Byrne, Gahee, Concer, O 'Reilly, Dean Henderson, all those 11 players, if I've named all 11, they'll be going to the World Cup.

5:49I think it's a performance that will pose more questions than answers regarding who gets that ticket that Thomas Tuchel keeps referring to for his final squad of 26. I think Ollie Watkins, who's not been named in this squad of 35, the performance tonight possibly still enhances his claims. I wouldn't necessarily rule him out for making the final cut. And I think that his comments regarding Cole Palmer, he became more and more animated as the game wore on, did Thomas Tuchel. I think in the first half, he showed signs where he was visibly applauding above his head. Solanke, which actually wasn't too dissimilar to a little bit of a run from Harry Kane, where he's poked it past his marker and then had a shot.

6:30There was a driving run by Rashford down the left-hand side. That got Tuchel applauding above his head. Moments like that were few and far between. Second half, a lot more animated. He wasn't happy with Cole Palmer coming too deep to collect the ball, wanted him further forward, and he was also unhappy about Wharton giving the ball away. And he just cut a more frustrated figure as the night wore on.

6:50Aaron Paul:Do England have a problem, Sammy, in that player, that creative outlet, that 10, that someone who's going to link the midfield and the attack and play that killer ball, where you've got Cole Palmer and you've got Phil Foden? I don't think they've got a problem. I think Jude Bellingham will probably start at 10, right? And that's a pretty good option to have. If not, you've got the option of Morgan Rodgers potentially. So there are options. But I think in isolation for tonight, if Phil Foden or Cole Palmer had any aspirations of even remotely pushing Morgan Rodgers or Jude Bellingham out of that number 10 position, I think those hopes have gone after tonight.

7:31Aaron Paul:What I ask is, Paul Robinson, we talked about it pre-game, how big a night it was for Phil Foden tonight. Yeah, he struggled to get into the game, in all honesty. It wasn't his type of game. Uruguay came here to kill the game, to not play with any type of tempo. And England struggled to get any kind of attacking, threat and tempo together in the final third. And Phil Foden in that number 10 role, which I think personally is his best position, he came in the game in flits and starts. But that wasn't just him personally. That was a collective as an England performance. They struggled going forward in that final third.

8:04and then he got that bad tackle didn't he Araujo it was a really poor challenge where he actually could have been sent off the Uruguayan central defender I think on another day he may have been sent off and then that knocked Phil Foden he was never really able to shake that knock off getting to see the tackle again as we talk now we're looking at the TV monitors it's a really poor challenge he goes right through he gets the ball but it's an old-fashioned challenge he goes right up Phil Foden's left shin I mean it's one that's certainly taking the wind out of his sails for want of a better phrase and from there he's never been able to recover and it was an inevitable substitution.

8:38Paul, he's going to have to leave one of those tens at home. It's that question we've been asking ourselves, I guess, for the last six months. He's got Morgan Rodgers, Jude Bellingham, Cole Palmer, Phil Foden. Which one stays at home? On the evidence of tonight, I guess it will be Phil Foden. I think when you look at the amount of time left in the season, form's going to play a big part in it, not just what you're doing in England, Jersey. I think it's very difficult to judge any player on that performance tonight. There's a long way to go between now and the end of the season. Injuries and form will come into that often, I think, in Thomas Tuchel's decision.

9:11And how often do we see it, Sam, when you come towards a tournament at the end of the season? Managers' decisions are quite often made for them because of injuries.

9:18Aaron Paul:Paul, you talked about players trying too hard. It felt like a group of individuals. It did feel like a trial game, didn't it? where you see a club putting a team together for a season and yeah, just loads of trialists out there all trying to hone individual quality. They did not play like a team. No, I think he created that atmosphere by naming that 35-man squad, by doing what he's done. And you look at the players that are coming in that were here tonight, that will join up tomorrow. They almost now, well, they are. They're going, aren't they? The ones that are coming in tomorrow. That group of players are almost the chosen few that are going.

9:57And this was the audition. It'll be interesting to see what team he picks on Tuesday against Japan as to whether he goes full tilt or it's another audition because, you know, you can't dress it up any other way. Thomas Tuchel will say, you know, we're looking at all these players. We're going to play this way. This is what we're doing. It's a team, et cetera, et cetera. That's nonsense. That was an individual trial game. And that's what it looked like. When he named his squad last week, he talked about the 10th position. He says we're going to have to make some tough calls on that 10th position.

10:24He talked about Palmer and Foden playing in the game against Uruguay and then Jude Bellingham, Rodgers or Eze, who he says can play anywhere against Japan. Now, they're managing the expectations regarding Bellingham and they weren't prepared to take any risks. I think Rodgers will start against Japan and then Bellingham to come off the bench. So then all of a sudden, I'm going back to his comments about Cole Palmer, where he says he has to show we have more evidence without him than we have with him. He cannot hold back. This was an opportunity for Cole Palmer to do that. And I'm not necessarily convinced that whether he's...

11:03But I think him and Foden. I mean, Foden's gone now 21 games without a goal on international level. To me, he wasn't as close to the penalty area that Thomas Tuchel would have wanted him to be in that first half. You look at the quality of players that we've got, right? We talk about individuals. You analyse those players individually. Every single one of those would enhance most of the teams that they played in. But as a team tonight, it didn't work. And the fact that we're sat here now, we're thinking, okay who put their hand up and the first answer to that question was Harry Maguire you know he played okay he did well enough but actually as a performance and as a collective as a team we've got attacking talent like Madueki, Foden, Rashford, Solanke you know those type of quality players in an attacking third where you're thinking go on then show us something we didn't get anything tonight.

11:46Aaron Paul:Talk to us about Ben White Sammy because he came back in no Trent Alexander-Arnold in this squad and there's question marks over whether he goes to the United States and Canada and Mexico and he was involved at both ends was Arsenal's Ben White yeah it was a re-baptism of fire for him wasn't it on his on his England return booed by a section of supporters as he came on scores the goal and even when his name was read out after goal after scoring the goal he was booed again and then goes away to give away that last gas penalty for Eurogrise equaliser. Look, it's been a difficult road back to international football for Ben White.

12:31I think the machinations towards tonight have been ongoing pretty much ever since Thomas Tuchel took over. My understanding was ahead of the June friendlies, which were, I don't know, remind me who they were against, It was Senegal and Andorra. There was a possibility of him getting called up then, but his wife at the time was just about to give birth. And so I think if you think about the machinations of Ben White pulling out of another squad, that wouldn't have necessarily been a good look. So I think they decided not to do it then. And then for the August games, the August qualifiers, again, I think there was Serbia and Andorra.

13:14I think Thomas Tuchel wanted to select him then, but he got injured at the start of the season with a knee problem. And then he's just not played, has he? Durian Timbers is Arsenal's first choice right back. And Thomas Tuchel hasn't been able to pick him, but he's picked him tonight. And I think for that 15, 20 minutes he came on, he scored the goal, gave the goal away. I think he leaves it broken even. but I still think it will be a hard push for him to get into the final squad. Look, I think, you know, obviously Rhys James is ahead of him, but can we trust Rhys James to overcome his injury problems?

13:52Tino Livramento played tonight. I know Thomas Tuchel likes him, but, you know, will his body hold up? It's a separate point there.

14:03Aaron Paul:How many of these players are we talking about where we're like, Right, great, fantastic. Will their bodies hold up in the sweltering heat? Aaron, we said before, me, Ian and John, all three of us said, Thomas Tuchel is very strong-willed. He plans ahead. He will know exactly what he wants to take with him to America. He will have an outline of the squad now. What is it? It's a 26-man squad that he's got to name. And out of those 35 there, I think he will probably know for definite 23 of them. And I think there is nobody on that pitch tonight that has made a case for him to suggest otherwise. What do you think, Ian?

14:39Well, the John Stones thing is a problem for Thomas Tuchel because he's played very little football since December. 67 minutes against Salford in an FA Cup tie and then the full 90 against Newcastle United at St James' Park. He would have started tonight, but he had a calf injury in training and he couldn't trust his body. And John Murray said to Thomas Tuchel, are you going to have to be 100 % confident of his fitness to include him in the World Cup squad. And Thomas said, yes, I guess so. But he came here and he was fit. Then he feels something. So if we call him up, there might be the chance he maybe misses out on a match at short notice.

15:16We have other top central defenders, but he can still play a part with his energy and with his quality. But first of all, I want him to be in camp as a player. Let's see how this camp continues and how it plays out. So now that means that they're going to have to assess that calf issue, bearing in mind they've got Japan on Tuesday night at Wembley.

15:34Aaron Paul:Ian, I've been watching England for 30 years. I don't think I've ever heard an England player be booed after scoring. Well, no, to be fair, I mean, I remember being in France at Euro 2016 and Raheem Sterling was subjected to a lot more booing and jeering from the England supporters than what Ben White had tonight. And I remember speaking to Daniel Sturridge and Daniel Sturridge coming out in defence of Raheem Sterling on that occasion at Euro 2016. Ashley Cole has been booed before so it's nothing new and actually I think in comparison to those two incidents I mentioned that was actually quite tame Paul let's talk goalkeepers James Trafford handed a first cap this evening how do you think he got on and does he have the potential to sort of cement himself as that third choice goalkeeper in this squad for the tournament?

16:27He was very underemployed tonight wasn't he and it's very difficult to judge him on that game a year ago I had one shot on target and it was a penalty and they scored from it, a penalty you could do nothing about, I mean he's still only 23 years of age, that was his first cap he's a goalkeeper that I know, I know that Thomas Tuchel likes him and I think he's been unfortunate in that situation at Manchester City I think he went there thoroughly expecting to be a big part of their season and to play week in and week out and that hasn't happened the opportunity to sign one of the world's best goalkeepers in Donnarumma arose and that's kind of knocked his career back a little bit I think when you look at Jordan Pickford, I said in commentary he's got 81 caps jordan pickford 71 of those are competitive which which speaks a lot for where he is and 23 of those 71 are in major tournaments so there's nobody that's going to take his position at the moment but underneath him once again we're guilty as a nation of having one goalkeeper who's heavily capped and three or four understudies who are in single figures cap

17:21Aaron Paul:wise and i know this is really nitpicky and i know you're you're part of the union i think there's one moment which really sort of opened up his and showed a bit where he showed a bit naivety and that was at the death where Uruguay are pressing and pressing and pushing and pushing and hunting a winner and he claims the ball and he plays out to Lewis Hall who's got three men in front of him. Hall tries to pop a ball down the left and it gets intercepted in midfield and suddenly England are under pressure again and you just think yeah an experienced keeper drops gets down and sits on the ball or or stands it into the corners don't they yeah that is nitpicky very nitpicky sorry and I'm definitely not part of the union my card was revoked a long time ago in lieu of honesty and the job that I do now but no I think listen I think that's it a lot of this listen it's a completely different topic and you'll get me on you'll get me on my high horse about it about playing out from the back they do so many it's like set plays when a goalkeeper gets the ball he has three or four situations and scenarios in front of him that he has in his mind and if they're not on then a goalkeeper's mind is quite often pre-meditated as to what the manager wants them to do regardless of what game the situation of the game is and actually where the game was um at that point yes England were under pressure but at the same time he's just conceded and England it's a game that they want to go on and win he's thinking can I set off an attack can I start something and he made a bad decision as to where he threw the ball out and we can hear from James Trafford after his first cap.

18:49Aaron Paul:He's with John Murray. Yes, first of all, it is one of England's debutants tonight, James Trafford. James, that must be very frustrating for you, the way that it finished there. Yeah, it's obviously frustrating because we played well. We limited them to very little and I haven't seen the penalty back, so I don't know. But judging off our reactions, I'm not sure on it. And yeah, it was unfortunate, but it was a really good game all in. At best you would say the award of the penalty was debatable, clear and obvious, question mark? I don't know, I haven't seen it back. High foot and it is one of those where it is debatable.

19:33Yeah, I don't know, I haven't seen it back, it happens quite quick live, isn't it? Tell us what the experience was like then, you've had to wait a little while for the opportunity. Yeah, obviously, I think it's two years ago, this March, was my first camp, and yeah, caps aren't given out, they're earned, like everyone knows, and yeah, when I got told I was starting, I was obviously really happy, everyone around me was really happy because I was making my England debut, and yeah, over the two years that I've been with the senior squad, it paid off. Yeah, and a kind of great time for it to happen, having played here, kept a clean sheet and won a cup final just a few days ago.

20:20Yeah, obviously the cup final was amazing. It was a great experience for me and me and the team. And yeah, I just wanted to come into the camp on Tuesday. I just wanted to build on the good momentum that I'd built myself through the days of training and the games I've played. Just tell me, James, as well, because, you know, this is a great day in your professional life. great day in your life to play for the England senior team for the first time from farming beginnings. You know, when you were growing up on the farm, to think that you'd be here playing for England? Yeah, obviously it's, I've come a long way in life.

20:54Not many farmers, sons from North West Cumbria play for England and yeah, I just took it every day at a time as a kid and still do and just try as hard as I can. I have to say I've got a little bit of common ground with you as a farmer's son myself from Northumberland. What sort of things were you doing on the farm when you were growing up? Growing up, just loved being with my dad, with my mum, just on the tractor with my dad, sat in the tractor, mucking holes out, feeding sheep, lambing sheep. And yeah, me and my sister just loved it as kids, just farming. like that's all we knew really it was farming first and whatever we whatever me my sister did was second and yeah we both loved it growing up must seem such a leap to have come from that to this yeah when you put it like that yeah but i don't really think about it i enjoy i enjoy going back home to the farm because where my mates from the family still live there yeah i enjoy going back i don't really do too much farming now when i go back but on christmas day me my dad went around sheep so yeah I enjoy it.

22:03Lovely well done tonight and I hope it's the first of many. Hopefully cheers pal. Well we've already heard from one of England's debutants tonight James Trafford. Now the other James, James Garner congratulations to you. Great moment I was just saying to the other James, great moment in your life isn't it to play for England for the senior team for the first time? Yeah no you know I'm very happy and very grateful for this moment. for a long time I didn't think it was possible but I think this season I've really pushed on and made this achievable and I'm so happy that it happened today A lot of people have to wait a bit James Trafford certainly has been in quite a number of senior squads for you, in the squad, in the team Yeah, like I said, I'm very grateful I think it's a little bit harder for keepers as obviously there's quite a few of them in the same position but like I said I'm just really happy to come in and the manager's trusted me in such a big game Did he only tell you today?

23:04Today was when I found out so I've been a bag of nerves to be quite honest with you a couple of days just waiting and hoping to be selected and found out today and I just couldn't wait to get on the pitch Are you one who gets nervous whenever you play? No, I don't really get nervous, but of course this is an experience that I've never felt before. Of course it is just another game of football, but you carry that extra bit of weight wearing the England shirt. I just didn't want to put a foot wrong. It must be nice that it's come when you're in a groove, a good groove. Yeah, I think I've had a good season.

23:49I think my form of late has been really good. and I'm glad that I've managed to bring it into the camp. Like I said, I'm just really happy that I ended up getting some minutes today and showing what I can do. Be honest, how do you think you did? Yeah, I think I did all right. Of course, in your dream debut, you want to be scoring goals and assisting and things like that and obviously winning the game, but I feel like I didn't really put a foot wrong, so I'm just really happy and grateful that I managed to make my debut today. in a tough match all the substitutions awkward difficult opponents yeah no, very good team like what you said quite a stop start game a couple of injuries, a couple of bad tackles as well but yeah no, it was a good game to be a part of there you are cap coming your way, you've got your legacy number now forever great experiences yeah sure Yeah, yeah, sure.

24:48Now, like I've already touched on, I'm really happy. And it's been a dream. A dream come true.