The Debrief: De Zerbi joins Spurs & Japan beat England

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1:47On the Football Daily Podcast, The Debrief with Kelly Cates. Hello and welcome to the Football Daily Podcast. We will have all the reaction to England's defeat by Japan at Wembley. But we're going to start with the news that Roberto De Zerbi has been appointed as head coach at Tottenham on a five-year deal. Former Tottenham keeper Paul Robinson is with us. And senior football commentator Ian Dennis will join us later on. But I'm going to start with our senior football correspondent, Sammy Mockbell. Sammy, what are the details of this deal? As you said there, Kelly, five-year deal for Roberto De Zerbe.

2:22But I think the most pertinent piece of information is that there isn't a relegation release clause. So given the situation that Tottenham are in at the moment, one point and one place away from the relegation zone, I think that's quite an important bit of detail. From what I understand, Roberto De Zerbe is backing himself to obviously keep the club up. But if the unthinkable does happen, he is all in to rebuild the team in the championship. So credit to him. He's got obviously big seven games ahead, given the situation that they're in. But he's in it for the long haul. In it for the long haul, but there is a short term fix that needs to happen.

3:02And is the belief in the club that those skill sets are the same? The same skill sets that can potentially keep Tottenham in the Premier League are the same set of skills that will be needed should they need to be promoted. I think there is an understanding that what happens in the next seven games won't necessarily be Roberto Di Serbi's long-term body of work at Tottenham. I think at the moment it's needs must. There's not going to be enough time to fit those tactical structures into his team. They need results and they need them now, immediately. so I think it's a case of Roberto Deserbi is simply putting his arm around the players telling them that you're actually good players, you're international footballers you should not be in 17th place in the Premier League and if he can do that if he can get on the right side of them straight away and have them running through brick walls for him then I think he's on to a winner because it's a great club, it's a global brand if he can get it right, the sky's the limit Sammy, thanks very much for coming and we'll let you go and put your head back in the England game now and concentrate on that job this evening.

4:07Thanks so much for coming in to chat to us. Paul, they've had four managers in less than a year. Does signing a five-year contract or signing a manager to a five-year contract seem more than a little optimistic? I think, yeah, definitely, especially when you look at the character of the manager as well and the type of manager that he is. But I think it's a good appointment for Tottenham, I really do. I think the managers that are out there and available at the moment, I think some stability and some long-term future for the club. And I think when you look at his record, he's a manager who doesn't care what people think.

4:36He's his own man. He's always delivered under pressure. The only problems that he's had are when the ownership and the director of football are pulled in a different direction. The project for him unravels very quickly. But I think when you look at the job that he did at Marseille, I mean, the city was behind him very much so. The decision making at the top of the club maybe wasn't. And I think he was maybe guilty of changing systems and personnel too much towards the end of his tenure. But his initial remit for Tottenham, as we know, is to keep them in the Premier League. he can't go in there and change the dressing room he can't go and change the players some players are going to be coming back from injury they don't play again until the 12th of April away at Sunderland which is a massive game and then six days later they play Brighton at home but I think the type of manager he is he's very intelligent obviously with his football knowledge he knows that he goes in there he's got to make friends he's got to make every one of those players play for him and he's got to make every one of those players like him come together as a team get results and then at the end of the season he'll be ruthless he'll have looked at the club He'll assess the squad himself already and he'll know exactly what he wants to do in the summer.

5:35But in the short term, it might not be pretty. It might go against his way of playing or his style. I think in the long term, Tottenham will play an open, expansive, high-pressing style of football like he's known for. But at the moment, it might be kicking it long. It might be putting it in the corners. It's just about getting through this season and starting again next season as a Premier League club. And then actually, Tottenham finished 17th last year. They're fighting against relegation this year. If they're in the Premier League next season, he can only improve. It's a great project at a fantastic club for him to improve both himself and the club.

6:06And as Paul said, his last job was at Marseille where he was until relatively recently and in January Roberto Deserbi spoke to Guillaume Balaguet about his coaching outlook for a special episode of the Football Daily. Premier League is still the best league in the world. It's like NBA in basketball. And then changing country, changing league, changing style of play in different leagues, I can improve because I think I'm better now than when I came. Different football culture, different coaches, different players, different football style. The most important, I think, is not to finish the mentality to improve.

6:55I always watch the game Premier League Serie A Bundesliga to complete my technologies to improve to be better and better That was Roberto De Zerbi speaking to EuroLeague's Guillaume Balaguet who joins us now Guillaume he started off by talking about the Premier League as the best league in the world so how has time away from that league changed him? Well he adds later on that that he was following the Premier League very, very closely, Kelly. And certainly he's got an essence which he will not change, even if he's got a few games before the end of the season and with a clear target, which may be new in his CV of a top six club not getting relegated.

7:44But certainly he, I think in every experience he's had, he's learned something about his relationship to the players, how to deliver the stuff that he's got to deliver and perhaps even what kind of people he should be working with him and this is absolutely crucial. There'll be a lot of stories now telling you that in every club things broke down and he's to blame. I put a different spin to the story. How about if you get the right people that work with him because you are talking about managers' favourite manager. You talk to Pep Guardiola, to Iraola, to Unai Emery and they'll tell you, are you watching what the Zerbi is doing?

8:24And they've all learned from him. And the kind of conversations that Pep Guardiola, who's a personal friend and the Zerbi have got, go to a level of knowledge that not many people have. And Pep and I have heard them say, if there is a manager that could take football to the next level, that's the Zerbi. It's just that I say he has to have the right context, the right environment and the right people that understand what he's trying to do and allow him to do it. And that's going to be absolutely key as we head into the end of this season because he needs to have the players who are able to take those ideas on board and implement them.

8:58So what is it about De Zerbi that suggests that he can get more out of these players than this myriad of different managers have been able to do so far? You could question if he's always got the targets with these teams. I mean, Marseille, first season, yes. Second season, not so much. Brighton taking to Europe. So, solo, just doing exceptionally well. So, yes, he's normally met the targets. But one thing you cannot question is that wherever he's been, the player has learned a lot. And players tell you about the first two weeks of when he arrives. This is when he's got time, of course. And they're just like, they hate it.

9:38Because they've been taken out of the comfort zone. They've been pushed to a limit that they didn't know they had. and through doing that, those that actually jump the hurdles and go to the other side become better players, no doubt about that. Who would have said that Don could actually play the ball from the back and absorb pressure and just pass the ball around? Well, he was convinced that he could do it and like him, many others. So there's no doubt that he can improve the players. I think he's going to take, it's going to be a double job he's going to be doing now. One, there is a target, a clear target on not getting relegated.

10:09to find out which one of the players he's got can work with his system and the way he wants to do things. Otherwise, he will just get rid of them and start a new one because, as you just heard before, he just doesn't care what people think because he's got a clear idea where he's going. With that clear idea and with his admiration for the Premier League, are you surprised that he's taken a job where he may, next season, be trying to get promoted from the Championship? Not really, because you're talking about financially, perhaps even historically, one of the top six clubs in the Premier League.

10:45And many would like to be in the situation that Spurs are in, in terms of what they've got, the stadium, the finances, etc. So with that in mind, and if they're giving you a five-year deal, the plan would be to actually just get them back to where they belong, really. And in that conversation I had with him two months ago, obviously, you know how it works, Kelly. he was like from the press officer do not talk about the Premier League you cannot talk about that don't ask about Manchester United and then you have to go around it but as soon as I mentioned the Premier League that's it there he goes he just goes off on talking about it because he wanted to come back wanted to be here certainly the context of Marseille is very special he worked for a while and he didn't work at the end because the people that were ahead of him the bosses didn't just think that he was doing a good job either right or wrong whatever it was the synergy was it broke down from the moment it did and this is three four months ago I think he had in his mind okay as soon as I can I have to go to the Premier League again and he's back in the Premier League as Spurs new head coach Guillaume thank you so much for joining us good to talk to you as always there are of course many aspects to being a manager with the profile of the Premier League club and the appointment has not been universally well received by Tottenham fans Let's bring in sport correspondent Katie Gornall, who's been speaking to some of them.

12:10Katie, just tell me a little bit about the concerns that some Spurs fans have about the appointment of Deserby. Well, Kelly, there's a real strength of feeling about this, and it relates to Deserby's time at Marseille when he controversially signed and supported Mason Greenwood. Now, just to remind everyone, Greenwood, when he was at Manchester United in January 2022, he was arrested and then later charged with attempted rape and assault. Now, the striker denied the charges, and in 2023, those charges were dropped by the Crown Prosecution Service after key witnesses withdrew their cooperation from the investigation.

12:47Deserby, 19 days after he was appointed as boss of the Ligue 1 side Marseille, signed Mason Greenwood, and then in November last year, he described the striker as a good lad, saying, and I quote, he had paid in a strong way for what happened. And it's those comments that have particularly angered many people. Now, tonight, Tottenham Supporters Trust, one of the fans groups who have come out and said that they cannot support De Zerbe's appointment. They released a statement calling his comments ill-judged and deeply offensive to a significant number of supporters and said if those remarks reflect his genuine views, they cast a troubling shadow over the values of the club we love.

13:31And Katie, one of the people you were talking to is Spurs fan and Women of the Lane co-founder Ali Speechley. I think for me, especially someone who I coached football for the best part of 10 years, and I know that actually you can't really separate out the character of a coach from their ability to then coach players. And the reason I say that is because I think actually the best coaches are authentic coaches and are coaches that are true to themselves. And so my issue with Roberto Di Zerbi is that he has shown his character very clearly over the years, but specifically with his treatment of Mason Greenwood.

14:11The fact that he hired him as a player and then continue to publicly back him and support him, sympathise with him around, you know, what a difficult time Mason Greenwood has supposedly been through. and for me that's just unforgivable and I think that speaks to the character of De Zerbe and therefore I don't want him anywhere near my football club. How do you think this has affected your relationship with the club? So, you know, as you said, I'm a die-hard Tottenham fan. I've been a fan since I was eight years old and I love the club dearly. It means everything to me. I don't think that the club will be that fuss necessarily about how I feel about this.

14:55But I know that I am. So in terms of my relationship with them, it's massively impacted it. And in all honesty, I don't have any intention now of going to the stadium because I don't feel safe around men like him. And it's as simple as that. Katie, Ali Speechley was saying that she doesn't think the club will care about the opinion of people like her. Is there a plan amongst those supporters who are against the appointment of De Zerby to kind of encourage the club to listen? Are there protests, for example, planned? Well, people do feel very strongly about this, as we've heard. Whether that becomes a formal protest of the ground, you know, we'll have to see.

15:38But it's clearly more than just online noise. Now, in relation to Tottenham Hotspur, we understand that the club and De Zerby are both sensitive to the Mason Greenwood comments. and the sentiment. It was something that was carefully considered and discussed as part of the process to appoint De Zerbi. And, you know, the Italian, he knows that he's going to be asked about this in his first press conference ahead of that Sunderland game. There's going to be questions coming on it. He'll be expecting that. And I think he'll be choosing his words very carefully. Katie, thank you very much. That was a sport correspondent, Katie Gornall.

16:41Transcription by CastingWords and Mediterranean chicken with code FREEMEAT at truenaturemeats.com. Hi, this is Alex Kantrowitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on-air contributor to CNBC. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology, I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like NVIDIA, Microsoft, Amazon, and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues, and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

17:25My name's Steve Bradnell, assistant manager at Royal Oak FC. You may have seen me online with Vinyl. Vinyl sensation. And now the BBC have given me the chance to set the footballing world bang to rise. This could be a great opportunity for us, lads, a podcast for the BBC. Can I just say, what's a podcast? Brilliant. Great start. Well done, Bob. Brilliant. We can completely show utter transparency to Royal Oak fans. I'll use my charm. Gift it, Gab. Game's gone. The Steve Bracknell podcast. Watch on YouTube. Listen on BBC Sounds. On the Football Daily Podcast, The Debrief with Kelly Cates. Here at Wembley, it finished England 0-Japan 1.

18:12Senior football commentator Ian Dennis and former England No. 1 Paul Robinson still with me. Denno, not a game in which England sparkled. There were reasons for that. They were missing plenty of senior squad members from their starting 11 and, in fact, even from the bench. But Japan looked impressive. Japan did look impressive, yeah. The first Asian side to beat England, a deserved win too. They carried the greater threat. They scored through Matoma. It was a well-created goal after 23 minutes. They also hit the crossbar in that first half, and England struggled to break them down. And I think you're right, Kelly.

18:46I mean, you could point out that there's no Harry Kane, who we were expecting him to captain England tonight, but as a precautionary measure, he didn't do so due to a minor issue. They weren't prepared to take that risk, so they were without him. Saka, Rice, James, Bellingham, established players, and it was the least inexperienced side that Thomas Tuchel has named in his 12 games in charge. However, that said, you know, ahead of the game, he was talking about the possibility, what do you do without Harry Kane? He says, well, I've got a few ideas. And he tried this false nine, which England tried under Lee Carsley against Greece in October 2024.

19:26Didn't seem to work that particular night in a 2-1 defeat and I don't think it worked tonight either. you asked Paul Robinson ahead of the game who's playing themselves out of position I think Phil Foden is because back in November Phil Foden was being talked about as a regular he's now gone 22 games without a goal, didn't really get himself involved, Palmer was trying to initiate something, Rodgers was playing out wide right, didn't seem to come off and only when they made the changes late on, Harry Maguire ironically as a defender going up front and Rashford on the left and Solanke coming on as a natural striker did they seem to get any sort of balance back into the team?

20:04He didn't come on as a central defender Harry Maguire did he? He threw him on as a central striker and they went longer, they went more direct and like I said at one point in the game Harry Maguire within 5-10 minutes of being on the pitch he's had more attempts on target than the whole front four in the first half and that just shows England lacked width at times they lacked creativity with any type of pace, the possession that they had, the territorial advantage, they dominated if you look at all the stats, you go on the BBC website and look at the stats, other than the one at the top that's the most important one, they've won in every category.

20:34But actually they didn't create enough in the final third, they weren't quick enough in possession, and it's only when they made the changes and reverted back to the formation with Solanke up front as that Harry Kane figure, if you like. Marcus Rashford, I thought, had an impact when he came on. I thought Lewis Hall had a good impact when he came on, provided Whip, put balls into the box. But in all honesty, I think tonight provided more questions than answers. yeah maybe except potentially one of the answers is that if Harry Kane were to be unavailable for whatever reason in any match in the World Cup that it's a maybe a like-for-like substitution rather than a change of approach from England is that going to be the best answer yeah I think so I think that's one thing that he will have seen tonight I don't think that trial that you know the trial with the four attackers they just got in each other's way they played far too now ran into each of the spaces and they couldn't really make anything happen for themselves in the final third and it wasn't until they had that central figurehead striker that took the attention of the central defenders because when you're playing with those types of players when you're playing with the Morgan Rodgers, Cole Palmer, Anthony Gordon, Phil Foden they're at their best when there's space in between the midfield and the defenders so what Solanke does or what Harry Kane does he occupies the back four he pushes the back four away and those players then have the space in the pockets of areas where they can deploy their talent best.

21:52But they just had four quality players in each other's space in front of the Japanese defence, unable to get in behind. I also wonder about Ollie Watkins, who wasn't named in the squad. These two games against Uruguayan tonight have actually enhanced his claims as well, because what Ollie Watkins, A, is proven at tournament football, you look at the configuration of the 26-man squad. For 2022, the last World Cup, they only took two strikers, Kane and Wilson for the Euros in 2024 they took three recognised strikers Kane, Tony and Watkins I think they'll only take two this time because of the options of maybe playing Bellingham in a more advanced role as well but I think the fact that Watkins can run in behind by him not playing I think he's actually possibly enhanced his own claims in a bizarre sort of way Well do you know what when you look at the you know talk about Ollie Watkins as well I know Ivan Toney's been in the squad Thomas Tuchel's had one look at him and he's not looked again but you look at the form that Ivan Tone is in he's the top scorer in the Saudi Pro League he scored 25 goals this season and you look at his ability to take penalties as well I know that's not the be all and end all of it but I just think there's more to his game as well whether he looks there that's a question that may not be quite answered yet and we know that England have never been shy of going into tournaments with this idea particularly under Gareth Southgate winning games by the smallest of margins and that of course is what penalties can come down to The noise from the over 7 ,000 Japan fans tucked away in the corner of Wembley is just incredible.

23:22The players are still out there long after the final whistle has gone and they're celebrating with their fans. They look really impressive. They look really exciting, look really creative in a way that England didn't in this game. They're a team who've developed throughout various tournaments, but maybe in Europe we don't see much of Japan. So every time we get to a World Cup, we go, could Japan be the dark horses? Are we past them being dark horses now? Well, I think there could be a surprise package, certainly. I mean, I actually commentated on their two games at the Khalifa Stadium in Qatar at the last World Cup, where they came from behind and they beat both Spain and Germany by two goals to one and actually topped the group in the last World Cup.

24:02And if you look at their record against European nations, they're now unbeaten in their last eight matches. Their last defeat against the European side was Belgium in the 2018 World Cup. the manager has been in place since 2018 they're well structured, they've got talent they're well drilled, they pose a threat on the break they're in Group F with Netherlands, Tunisia and then obviously the winners of Sweden, Poland so that'll be Sweden I think they've got a great chance really do not of winning it but going a long way in the competition they've proved that they're hard to beat I think they showed susceptibility towards the end when England actually upped the tempo and upped the quality of their play especially defending from set plays they struggled with But like you say, all the stats, when you look at where they've been recently, I mean, that's five games in a row that they've won now.

24:46They only conceded three in the 10 games of the qualifying campaign. So they are a team that are very, very difficult to break down. In fact, that's five successive wins, and it includes beating Brazil when they were 2-0 down to come back to win 3-2. So you're looking at credentials. They're certainly showing it. Yeah, Japan really tough opposition for England this evening, but still looking for the positives from that England performance, of which there weren't many but one and one player that caught your eye, Paul, was Elliot Anderson. I thought he was outstanding, both defensively and offensively.

25:17I think he's continued his club form and the way that he's developed as a player this season. He could well become a key part of Thomas Tuchel's plans for the summer alongside Declan Rice. If he is to play the four at the back with the two holding midfielders, it's looking very much like it's Elliot Anderson and Declan Rice in those positions. I just think what he gives you defensively, he covers so much ground, he wins the ball back quickly, but then he also turns defence into attack. England were guilty of being slow in possession and pedestrian-like but every time he got the ball, he looked forward, he tried to make something happen.

25:46He understands both sides of the game very, very well. John Murray's waiting to talk to Thomas Tuchel. Yes, the big fights for England are yet to come this summer. 78 days to go, Thomas Tuchel. This wasn't the send-off that you wanted. How are you all feeling about what happened tonight? It's not a send-off, come on. There are like 100 matches to be played now in England and then Europe and then wherever. So it's March. It's not a send-off. But of course, we're disappointed. But we knew before that this will be a tough exam for us because both teams, I knew it before, arrive in their strongest lineup.

26:22And they will take it very, very seriously. They're like well-drilled teams. They're both in the top 20 in the world. We knew that this can happen because we had a completely new team in camp. And then 10 new players arrived. suddenly we had six, seven, eight injuries after the first match and could not play with a group that we wanted to play, had again a huge mix-up and yeah did our best, I think the effort was there, the intensity was there, it was difficult to break Japan down because they're a well-drilled team, we got punished for not a lot for one counter-attack and from there it was difficult.

27:00But in the end, we created 19 shots, but only, I don't know, three or four or five on target. And yeah, couldn't score. It would have helped us, of course. We made life ourselves difficult in the first half because the field was way too narrow. Second half, we played a bit wider and more aggressive, took a little bit more risk. And it looked a bit better, but yeah, we couldn't prove it in the results. So yeah, it was a tough exam. And now we have to take our learnings. You know very well what the main storyline will be. I guess that you lose your captain, Harry Kane, at the 11th hour, not able to play.

27:35And the storyline will be, what of England if there's no Harry Kane? Yeah, it's not only Harry Kane who's missing, but of course Harry Kane is missing. The question is, what is Tottenham without Harry Kane? What is Bayern Munich without Harry Kane? So it's just like you rely on one of the best goalscorers who ever played this game. So where's the problem? It's just reality. And you gave Phil Foden the chance to play in that position. Do you feel that he's been able to further his cause at all over these two matches, Phil? It's not about Phil and not about Cole in particular, but of course we want from our strikers, whoever played today in offensive positions, we want offensive actions, we want runs, we want dribbling, we want dropping a shoulder, we want winning one-on-ones, we want that they take risks, that they are creative and dangerous.