The Debrief: Five-goal Stamford Bridge thriller, AFCON final is set

0:00On the Football Daily Podcast, The Debrief with Steve Crossman. What a night at Stamford Bridge. Chelsea 2, Arsenal 3, full-time, first leg of the League Cup semi-final. Liam Rossini's first home game in charge. Arsenal twice leading by two goals. White, Jokeres and Zubimendi for Arsenal. For Chelsea, two goals from Alejandro Garnaccio after he came on as a substitute. Also more to come on Celtic's 1-0 win at Falkirk and Hearts 2-0 victory over St Mirren. They went down to 10 men when it was nil-nil, but that helps them greatly up at the top of the Scottish Premiership. We're also going to hear from Sadio Mane as well.

0:42In the next half hour, he scored the goal for Senegal as they knocked Egypt out of the Africa Cup of Nations at the semi-final stage. But these are the sounds of Stamford Bridge. The correspondent John Murray and Matt Upson inside the stadium, former England goalkeeper Rob Green is with us as well. Rob, you launched a spirited defence of Robert Sanchez over the first Arsenal goal. What about the second? No, can't do it. Sorry, Steve. Technically, his legs have gone one way because he's trying to cut his body to get down to the ball. But when you do that, your legs throw your body weight up. And therefore, he's done that rainbow dive as opposed to dropping down onto the ball and basically just not got his hands behind the ball.

1:24And that's what hurt them. You're thinking two goalkeeping errors in there in a game against Arsenal. You just can't afford to do that. You need your defence on point, you need your goalkeeper on point, and he wasn't. Is Rainbow Dive a technical term? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've never heard that one before. No, you can picture it. It's an up and a down rather than a down and a cross. Put it that way. There's a joke somewhere in there, John, about them still having hope because of Garnaccio, but I won't be the one to make it. Yeah, I think it was certainly entertaining for Liam Rossini's first match here as the head coach, and I think there's certainly something for him to take from this, But the hard fact is, as we know, they know, everyone knows, at Chelsea, you will be expected to win.

2:05And he lost. And yes, you know, there was the rally after he made his changes in the second half and one of his substitutes, Garnaccio, scored both of the goals. But, you know, the fact is Chelsea will have to go and win at the Emirates and no visiting team has done that yet this season. What do you think, Matt, will be Liam Ross Sr.'s favourite takeaway? What will he have enjoyed seeing? I think he'll enjoy the fact that they came back a couple of times from times in the game where Arsenal could have run away with it. And I think that's partly down to them sticking at it, in fairness to them, partly down to the fact that I think Arsenal will be disappointed they haven't come away from here with maybe a little bit more.

2:48As we've already touched on with two goalkeeping errors, you'd think that they might have had more of a lead but weren't able to. and I think that's a big positive. I'm just looking at the team and I think there was only three players in the Chelsea team that didn't change position throughout the 90 minutes. I mean, talk about tinkering and what have you. So he's had a real shuffle about with nearly everyone bar Santos, Enzo and Esteval who stayed out on the right. Everyone else changed at some point. Goalkeeper. Goalkeeper as well, of course, with Sanchez so far. So with that in mind, they've actually done all right Steve I think they've had a bit of grit and dug in and they've done okay because that amount of change during the game against the team is efficient and as organized as Arsenal's not easy to cope with in they've they've hung in there I mean and I don't take any pleasure in just sort of laying into a goalkeeper Rob or anyone else but especially a goalkeeper because you're on if you are Liam Rossini you are surely thinking well, two things happened in that game which are completely beyond my control.

3:53Yeah, and you say, well, I'll set a team up and touch it on what Matt said. You can see the goal within the opening minutes of both half and they're both errors. And you think, what can we do here? What can I do? And the fact of the matter is that Philip Jorgensen played in his first game and played really well in goal against Charlton. Yes, it was against Charlton. Yes, there's different challenges in doing that. But all of a sudden, the challenge for Albert Sanchez is you'd proven yourself to be number one. You've got to go and do it again. And it's something that's against the team that you just do not want to do it against.

4:29Do you think it could be an even keel now for those two keepers, Greeny, in terms of new manager coming in and resetting and thinking, right, who am I going to play? Or do you think he'll go with Sanchez? I think he'll stick with Sanchez because he's had the shirt. But you look at how they're playing now, Matt, and it's interesting. They're looking to lure that press. They've got the double pivot. They've got the overload around their own goal. And it was hairy at times, wasn't it? You're looking at Sanchez. He didn't look assured on the ball. I think that's the difference. That's where Jorgensen can play.

5:03He's got shortcomings in the shot-stopping attributes and stuff like that. But the playing out from the back, if you want your keeper to do that, then all of a sudden it throws in a very different dimension because Maresca had changed that. Maresca had allowed Sanchez to go long. So all of a sudden these errors of, you know, he's saying, well, what are you bringing to the party if you're going to cost us goals as well as not be able to play out as well? So it's going to be an interesting one. I never know, Rob, quite how it works with who's going to play. Who's going to play in goal in the League Cup?

5:37So Jorgensen had started all three matches in this competition, but a new manager comes in and it's Sanchez who plays, whereas for Arsenal, Kepa has started all of the matches in this competition and continued to play in the semi-final. I presume every case is different, but what sort of deals, if I can call it that, are done? Or does it just come down to the manager wanting to give the other goalkeeper a match? Yeah, it's just, you know what, some are on a game-by-game basis, some sighing to play only in cup games, and it is a very odd dynamic because the feel of everything, a whole 11 can remain virtually the same.

6:14You change your goalkeeper, it sends a completely different message, doesn't it? It's a really odd dynamic. I suppose the thing is, John, that normally it is a manager who has two good goalkeepers who wants to try and do what they can to keep the number two keeper happy so that they stick around. But that's not necessarily the case with Chelsea, is it? There is an argument there that neither one of their goalkeepers could necessarily kick up a fuss if they weren't picked on any given week at the moment. But then sometimes it comes to the final. Oh, yeah. And then the other goalkeeper comes in, but then sometimes it doesn't.

6:50Look, there's a third option in all of this, Matt, which is they go and buy another one. Yeah, I mean, that is an option. And I think, you know, as well as Sanchez has done at times, and I think, you know, he has had very solid games and come away with positive performances. I think what Rob said there, every time I see him I don't quite trust him with his feet he doesn't look comfortable a couple of times tonight if it's coming to him and he's under pressure and he's got to get his head up and find that pass which you have to if you're going to play that that out from the back as Rob just described I'm not sure he's got that in the armoury so that's something for Liam Rossini to have to figure out and whether or not that needs addressing and we don't know why he played the goalkeepers this way round as well That would be quite interesting to know whether or not he's saving Sanchez because he feels this was obviously the bigger game than Charlton or whether or not he fancies Jorgensen more and wanted to play him.

7:45We don't know his decision-making, so that's quite an interesting one as well. Let's move it on to Arsenal then, Matt. Goodness me, if anybody is feeling relieved after this game tonight, it's got to be Victor Jokeres, hasn't it? Yeah, it has. I mean, showed, you know, large parts of the game where you kind of think, is he effective enough? I feel for him in a little way because I think that, you know, in terms of what his strengths are, he's not going to get that many opportunities to showcase what he likes to do. So he's got to adapt and I think he's got to learn that. And he's got to almost be coached that and change the way that he's played previously.

8:25so to see him in the second half offer up himself to have that ball into his feet centrally in the pitch on the edge of the box and find a little offload for Zubimendi for me was a real plus point because I think it showed that centre forwards have made such good careers off those type of moves, I mean Olivier Giroud played for both these teams was one of the best I've seen at that, I think he was fantastic at playing that role and he's got to learn that that kind of link up is essential because you're going to dominate the edge of the opposition box all the time. And you have to have that in your locker to play for a team like Arsenal.

8:59And that's got to come more from Jokeres. You can look at the bullish running and steaming through people, which he did a couple of times. And he can cause a bit of havoc. He can have two or three people hanging off him while he's driving with the ball. And then it pings out to someone else and he draws players to him. So he is effective, but he's got to offer up more. And he did that in moments tonight. Rob, you know, the thing that I think really stood out after the goal is of the 10 people who celebrated that goal, everybody celebrated it more than Jokeres, which almost paints the picture of a group of players who are desperate to get him going.

9:36Well, that's because he was still sinus eye relief, wasn't he? You could just see him physically go, oh, thank God for that. But he was there. He was there. And you go back to the first half, and João Pedro had a shot come cross, and no one was there for Chelsea. They didn't have that instinctive centre forward there. So you kind of, you say, oh, it was a tap-in. You've got to be there to score that tap-in and he was. So you've got to give him credit for that. And I just find it interesting, Matt, I was going to ask you on him. Do you think with the way that they play with Urien Timber and Ben White marauding forwards is the sort of, is the modern day sort of number 10, full-back come number 10 kind of attacking player.

10:23Do you think that brings a dynamic that he's not used to as a centre forward, that almost you've got to pin yourself in there? Because, like you say, he wants to make those channel runs, those bullish runs, but there's already someone there. Yeah, yeah. Like I say, the space a lot of the time, and you see him drifting around the centre of the field, there's a little bit of aimlessness about him looking at where should I place myself. so in those moments when they're all up there you have to offer that ability to take the ball in and set it off, win a foul, pin the centre half, find where the midfield because he'll always have options because he's got world class players all around him from midfield but it's just getting in that mindset and giving it time to do that and to your point Steve on them wanting to celebrate that with him, do you remember Havertz at Bournemouth where they gave him a penalty and said you go and take it and they really made a fuss of him to bring him into the group and to give him a boost.

11:20It just reminded me of that. It's a testament to the spirit that Mikel Arteta has built in that Arsenal dressing room. How long does that go on for though? How long do you keep not scoring? Handing him a penalty or something. Yeah, yeah. I know because it is manufactured, isn't it? It's a sign of support but sooner or later you've got to pick it up and do it yourself, haven't you? Exactly. There'll be a time limit for that for Jokic. I mean, he does bring a different dimension to anyone else, so it is useful. But for that starting role, which he obviously wants coming into the club, with Haberts getting fit and what have you, that could start to slip away for him.

11:58I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, Matt, but the thing that I found really interesting about that is that sort of reaction to a player is almost what I would expect if a striker who has been missing loads of chances and therefore is low in confidence, scores a goal and everyone's behind him. I'm not sure that's the Jokeres story, is it? It's not like he's been passing up a hat full of easy opportunities. He just hasn't necessarily been there. It's not really a confidence thing, is it? No, I don't think he's had a lot of the opportunities. So you're right. It's not a thing where, oh, he's having a bad time in front of goal.

12:32It's just you're not getting into the places like he got in tonight to have those tap-ins. Yes, it was gifted to him by a goalkeeper and error, but that's fine. he's in the spot, he tucks it away that's his job, you know the assist for Zubimendi that for me was the best part because he's in the right place, he's taking the ball in, he sees the offload, he executes it he's done his job and I think that's really, really good but he's not missing hatfuls of chances, he's just getting in those positions In seven Premier League matches this season, he's not had an attempt on goal that he's played in So they're not misses, they're lack of efforts.

13:10Hence why you're on it almost seems not well not unnecessary as they shouldn't have done it but it isn't one of those situations necessarily where teammates need to get around a player and sort of get them going because he's not he's not a player who is missing a ton of chances he's just a player who isn't taking a ton of shots and also now there is direct pressure on his position with Jesus and and Havertz now fit and maybe that actually is something that he needs you know that sort of the threat of losing his place to these other guys. He could react brilliantly to that and you can get a different dimension out of him.

13:46I mean, possibly, but I don't think he's not given it his all. You know what I mean? I don't think he's given it his all. It just requires for me a change of tact and a change of understanding that his role can't just be what's made him successful so far and got him the move to Arsenal. He's done that bit. He's now here. Right, what do I need to do to be a success at this club? And it might just need those tweaks and him playing that role to really bolster his importance to the team. There's a great piece, by the way, on the BBC Sport website by Alex Howell, which is all about basically the question of, can Arsenal go and win a Premier League without a player who necessarily scores over 10 Premier League goals?

14:25Because it hasn't happened before, but at the moment they're on course to do it. Now, the answer to that is obviously yes, because they're top of the Premier League despite that fact. That said, Rob, doesn't it kind of feel inevitable that this is just Havertz's team to walk back into? Has the ship not sailed on Jokeresh keeping him out? I don't know, because he didn't score a bundle himself, did he? We were just talking about it then. Does he not offer more, though? He's a better footballer. Yeah. He's a better... I think he's a better centre-forward. He's more involved. Yeah, he's more involved.

14:56I think he's more versatile. I think he's got a better... He's got a cuter football brain. Whether he scores the hatful of goals that we're thinking, I don't know. But he's... I can't see him getting 10 that's for sure this season but I do think that Giorgores has come in as someone who they desperately needed they needed a number 9 where would they be if they hadn't have had him this season they'd have still been playing Michael Marino up front and that had its shortcomings in itself so there's definitely space for him I just I don't think it's his fault Giorgores that he's not that great at football he's not that great as a centre-foot Of all the things you've ever said about a player.

15:39I just don't, you know, he's not at that standard. And I do feel like he's, when they come up against the good teams, the really good sides, that that's where they've come short, fallen short, isn't it? He's probably an important part of potentially Arsenal going on to win the league because he's playing that role. But for that position, to really nail down that position and grab it and run with it and be a full success there. I think there's definitely a lot of work to do for him. And I think Mikel Ateta really does like Kai Havertz. He likes the way he plays. He likes that intelligence that Greeny just mentioned about what type of footballer he is.

16:18So that's going to be an interesting thing to unravel from here on in. But you look at and say, sorry. No, you're all right. Go on, Rob. Yeah, but where we were, and it's 64 million, was it? John was saying that they've spent. and they were saying that the drop-off isn't as far from player one to player two now. So you may be looking at your career saying it's£64 million spent on player two when Kai Havertz is fit, so the drop-off isn't that great. I think that's where the key difference is. I was about to ask you both how you think Mikel Arteta will feel after that, but I don't have to because here he is with John Southall.

16:512-0 up and at 3-1 up, you must have thought we can really go on and push on and finish this one off. So is there a lingering frustration tonight that you didn't? Yeah, we tried. With the 1-3, we kept going. We kept pressing them. We put them under a lot of problems. We had two massive chances to score the fourth one. And when we had the best moment, they scored the goal from the corner. And how do you see the tie now? I mean, you are clear favourites. It's just half-time, but it's very open, especially with the quality that they have. Was it a bit too open for you tonight? At 2-0 or at 3-1, should you have maybe seen it out better?

17:26There is so much quality in that pitch. and the moment somebody unlocks one player, it's a lot of space. And that happened in many occasions today. Well, he dodged it there, Matt, but the answer to that question is yes, surely it must have been too open for Arteta's liking in the end. I think that they didn't deal with a couple of situations that he would have liked. I mean, the cross that wound its way all the way back to Garnaccio, they were a little bit stretching. It was just too easy for him. Obviously, the second one was a bit more of a tricky one. it was deflected out it was a good first time finish but you know he was right I thought the subs made a massive impact Mourinho came on with energy Martinelli the save you know on a positive note with Sanchez was fantastic for Mourinho really came out made himself big and got a great block in which really did save Chelsea because that would have been big trouble I think that would have put it to 4-1 wouldn't it John at that point so you know that was a big moment in the game where it could have gone completely the other way So he will be disappointed because I think it was there for the taking at moments in the game.

18:30But I think you could hear in the smile in his voice, I think, cup match, first leg away from home, you win it. Yeah. That's the bottom line. It's not a disaster. That is the bottom line. This is kind of, this is quite a big question, but I'm going to ask it anyway, because I feel like we should talk a bit, John, about Alejandro Garnaccio. And it is really easy to forget, so much so that I just had to Google it. He is still 21, and yet he is a player who it feels like there are a myriad of discussions around, is he ever going to live up to his potential? He's still 21. Yep. He feels a lot older.

19:05The world is his oyster, and he is a very, very talented player. And, you know, he's in a place here where he has intense competition for a place in the starting lineup. But if this is a cup final, if it's on the line, if it's a Champions League match, does Garnaccio start for Chelsea? Is he one of your best 11? I think that's... I said to you before the game, how long is Liam Rossini going to keep him happy if he's not picking him in big games? And he's got that feel about him as a character. That's just me from the outside, how I see him and what he is. I said at half-time to you, I think he would have an impact on the game.

19:47And he did. And he did it because I think he's got this different personality, which I thought was such a positive for Chelsea tonight. He came on and he brought something different. He's got a way about him. He was direct. He's hungry. He's desperate to prove himself and be the best player. And I think he's got that kind of arrogance and will to want to do that. Whether or not he's easy to manage, I don't know. And that'll be the test and that'll be Liam Resignia's job. But he has something. He's got an edge about him. as a person. I mean, I think it's, to me, it's odd that he's not still at Manchester United.

20:23Why? But why do you think he's not still at Manchester United? There might well be a very good reason for that. Clearly, you know, there were issues there. But, you know, he's come through, he's been developed at Manchester United. But, you know, there's a lot of that that goes on. I think, you know, Madueke was on the bench today for Arsenal. I think it's odd that he's not still at Chelsea. Yeah. From the point where he was with Chelsea, his development, being a part of a successful team last season, and yet they sold him to a team across the capital who were one of their direct rivals. But maybe...

20:54John actually frustrates the life out of me. He is someone who you look at tonight, you say, just bottle it, do it again. And you get games, and I've watched him live so many times already this season where you're going, right, this is yours for taking. Enzo Fernandes, when he plays in that more advanced role, loves to get on and get in between the right-sided centre-half and the right-back. and the right-back has to tuck in and then all of a sudden Garnaccio's got a third of the pitch on his own and he's saying, just take it, just do it, just run at him, use the combinations with Enzo, with your number 10, whoever it might be, just go and do it and he doesn't and then you see him tonight where he comes on with his bit between his teeth and he's got something to prove and he goes and proves it and you're like, oh come on, do this, do this.

21:40He needs managing though, Rob, doesn't he? He's not one of those players you can kind of like leave him to his own devices to produce that. I think it's a constant progress with him. And you're right, that reaction he had today, he was desperate to get on and do something. And he did. That's how capable he is. Well, if Liam Rossini can unlock Alejandro Garnaccio, that might be a heck of a start. Guys, lovely. Really, really good. Enjoyed that. Thank you very much, John, Matt, Rob. Excellent. John Murray, Matt Upson, Rob Green, who've been with us on Five Live Sports tonight. Chelsea 2, Arsenal 3, first leg of the league, Cup semi-final.

22:16Excellent game. Let's hear from the Chelsea manager, Liam Rossiniar with John Southall. Liam, it was a very good watch for the neutral. How did you find your first Stamford Bridge experience? Yeah, the walkout was a great thing for me and my family. My family were here today in terms of the result. Not the result we wanted, it's half time in the tie. A lot of positive aspects in terms of the energy, the attitude, the intensity, the resilience of the players but disappointed in the manner that we conceded the goals. I was going to say how frustrated were you with that and how much can you learn from those goals?

22:50Yeah we have to we have to myself included the first goal work on the corners we know where they're going to put the ball I think lots of managers have said that against Arsenal we need to be stronger on in that moment you know we need to fight that one out and the third goal was disappointing because we we actually were in a really good place in the game at 2-1 the energy of the crowd was up we were on top of the game and then we switched off on a restart where they played a quick free kick through our lines and they have quality, they took advantage and punished us but again we come back and I have to say that's what I've spoken to the group about is resilience, determination I thought we had some really, really good passages of football we were exciting to watch but we need to make sure that we're pragmatic at the same time 2-0 down and maybe at 3-1 it looked like the game might get away from you so in a strange way are you not that disappointed to come away with a 3-2?

23:38I'm always disappointed to lose a game, but what I did like was the resilience, the determination of the players. I felt we looked fit. I'm asking them to press in a different way. I'm asking them to be even more intense than they have been. And there were a lot of really, really positive signs in terms of the engagement, the attitude of the players. But we can't give cheap goals away. And a word about Garnaccio. He came on as a sub. I mean, you must be thrilled with him. And how important could he be if you can get the best out of him? He's an outstanding player. It's no surprise to me. He gets goals, he can finish.

24:09Two fantastic finishes from him. But I felt the other two wingers were out of the field. Estaval is going to be scary how good he was today. Pedro Neto was top in terms of playing three different positions. He played the number 10, he played on both wings. I thought his energy levels, his quality was really, really good. So again, pleasing aspects to our performance. But we want to start winning games of football.

24:33From a small village on the banks of the River Nile. Everybody call me Mohamed, but in a short name or nickname, they call me Mo. To the biggest stages of world football. Goes for the corner! Mo Salah! Salah is more than just a player. He's an icon, a symbol, a king. It sticks still! And Salah rips off his shirt! Mohamed Salah represents a dream. For Egyptians, for Muslims, for Africans. More than just a football player, he gave us hope. I'm Kelly Cates. This is Sporting Giants Mo Salah. Listen on BBC Sounds. On the Football Daily Podcast, The Debrief with Steve Crossman. OK, let's talk Africa Cup of Nations because we have our final.

25:21Senegal will play the hosts, Morocco. Morocco beat Nigeria on penalties. John Bennett was watching. Well, here in Rabat, the dream for Morocco to win a first Africa Cup of Nations title in 50 years is still on. Thanks yet again to their keeper, Yassin Bonu. He was a hero at the World Cup in Qatar when they beat Spain on penalties during the tournament. And he was a hero in this semifinal, saving from Samuel Chukwese and Bruno Onyemechi before experienced striker Youssef N. Naziri stepped up to score the winner, leading, of course, to delirious celebrations. The coach, Walid Reg Raghi, who'd been under pressure during this tournament, sprinted onto the pitch, punching the air.

26:02The 120 minutes before the penalty shootout have been gripping despite the lack of goal-scoring opportunities. Nigeria's star man, Victor Ossaman, never really got into the game and the Super Eagles are going home despite scoring 14 goals in their first five matches at this tournament. Earlier, Senegal's Sadio Mane won the third part of his international football trilogy against Egypt's Mohamed Salah, his former Liverpool teammate. Mane scored the winner 12 minutes from time, which means Salah's wait to win the title goes on. But the question is, will this be his final AFCON? As for Senegal, they have a chance to win the Cup of Nations title for the second time in four years.