The Debrief: Macclesfield to host Brentford & Liverpool put four past Barnsley

0:00On the Football Daily Podcast, The Debrief with Mark Chapman.

0:30Sam Heathcote joins us now. Another Premier League side then, Sam. Perfect. Amazing, yeah. Couldn't be more happier to have two draws and get two Premier League sides. Just dreamland for lads like us who play non-league and again, to try and test yourself against some of the best players in the world and international footballers. It'll be an amazing day for myself, my family and everyone related to that football club. Are you ready for the long throws? Oh, born ready. That's our game in non-league, isn't it? Kick it and head it. Do you know, in all seriousness, Sam, when I was there on Saturday and I thought your goalkeeper dealt with everything and one of the things that did come to mind is probably because he's used to quite a lot of crosses and long throws and balls coming into the box in the National League North.

1:17Would that be fair? Yeah, absolutely fair. And, you know, he's a brilliant keeper and we're definitely lucky to have him. He takes the pressure of us a lot by coming and claiming stuff. so it helps us out if we don't have to do that job and he's willing to get off his line which he does and just takes a sting out of games as well doesn't it so yeah lucky to have him behind us Sam I was just about to say I'm surprised you're on the radio you shouldn't be sober why are you here? He blimmin' should be sober he's been teaching today Yeah it would have been slightly concerning I was back in school this morning and we've got a game tomorrow so well done mate cheers pal what was it what was it like since full time I mean, what was the rest of Saturday afternoon and Saturday night like for you all?

1:59It was unbelievable because my first thing, I ran over to the corner where I knew what they were and to see all them and how emotional they were, I was so overwhelmed with emotion myself and just had a little sit down in the stand for about five, ten minutes trying to soak everything in. I had my best friend with me and he just said to me, what has just happened? And I was like, mate, I don't know. Honestly, I don't know. I was just trying to soak up every emotion and just enjoy every second of it because these things aren't supposed to happen, are they? And for somehow, some reason, it did happen on Saturday.

2:30So just try to soak up every single feeling that I had and just enjoy it. So I'm just going back to the game because I've been involved on both sides. And when you're the underdog, there's obviously hope going into the game. I wouldn't say I know everyone says there's a belief, but realistically, you don't probably feel at that level you're going to go and win the game. At what point did that hope turn to belief? I mean, because you were so good on the day. This wasn't a sort of smash and grab, you know, non-league team beating a Premier League team. You fully deserved it. But I just want to know what point of the game did you start feeling, actually, we're going to pull this off?

3:03Yeah, I mean, after the first goal, I said to Lewis Fenton, the right back, as we were walking back, I said, mate, regardless of what happens now, we've just scored against a Premier League team. We've celebrated. We've had that moment. And he went, I know, mate, mad that. And then when the second one went in, me and him just give each other this look as if to say, like, this might be on you now just with the way the waves I'd say after the second go I thought we'd really got something to hang on to it and to be honest apart from that I didn't even think about at the end I was so tired and mentally and physically exhausted just constantly kicking and heading balls away and then when that final whistle went just the relief the relief and everything that came with it it was yeah unbelievable feeling Did you feel nerves when they pulled one back?

3:49What was stoppage time like for you? Or are you in a position where you can't feel nerves? No, I don't think that you can do it. I didn't feel nervous when they scored. It was more just trying to focus on get that ball as far away from our net as possible. And there was no other thought in my mind. We've got a group of lads in there that despite what's happening in the game, they'll roll their sleeves up and they'll give it a good go. And that's what you're seeing for 96 minutes, whatever it was. Just 11 lads having a right go and we've come off the right side of it. so it's an amazing, amazing day.

4:19And what was today like back at Stanford Park Primary? It was lovely, went back in and all the kids were in the hall waiting for me and all cheered and, listen, probably half of them really understand what's happened and the younger half don't. I had some funny comments from the little ones. One of the first things I had this morning was a little boy come up to me and said, I made my dog wave at you on the telly and I was like, yeah, I'm absolutely right back into it. There's no saying I'm a high horse anymore. We're back down to planet Earth. But no, it was lovely seeing all of them, and I got little cards and stuff, which was nice.

4:54But isn't that amazing, Sam? I mean, the football side of it is brilliant, and obviously, you know, for your career and testing yourself and this, that and the other from the football side of it, just that sort of community side of it and the innocence of it for some of the kids, but the pride of it as well. 100 % the innocence of it is so special in itself and there's the kids saying that they're proud of me and things like that and it's such a strange feeling but they can take a message from that that even if you're not supposed to do things if you put your head down and you really really try amazing things can happen if I can give them a little bit of hope of something that they didn't weren't sure they were quite going to do or then that that means a lot and I spend a lot of time with them kids in the school and to have some of them come up to me at very young ages and say I'm proud of you and all that.

5:43It was a lovely day. How difficult is it combining the football with the job? I mean, John, your manager's been on a couple of times on a Monday night club and I think the last time we spoke to him I think you were about to play Kings Lynn maybe in a rearranged game because you'd gone to Kings Lynn and it had been called off when you got there. Now, I mean, there's a whole other debate to be had about how Kings Lynn have ended up in the National League North, but that's I mean, that is a hell of a journey when you have a job as well. I think you hear people at different levels complain about different things.

6:20And to be honest, at non-league level, I never hear any lads complain about anything. You go and you travel on Tuesday nights. We've got Woken tomorrow night and you'll be back up for work on Wednesday. And it's just a case of get on with it is what it is. I'm very fortunate that I have a head teacher at Stamford Park Primary School who's amazing and lets me work my training and my travel around that and swap lessons around. So I am very fortunate in that sense. but it works completely fine and I have full support of the school for the football and yeah it works really well and it's two really nice jobs, two really nice environments to work in.

6:51So in woking away in the FA Trophy tomorrow, I mean as a group have you had a chance to prepare for that or has it all been too much of a whirlwind? Well no we only train on Tuesday and Thursday mornings so obviously with us travelling to the game tomorrow afternoon we won't train in the morning so it was just the game Saturday, have your weekend and then we'll be on the coach ready to go. What are you shaking your head at, Joby? It's just what it's all about, isn't it, Chappers? It's just a beautiful, simple game sometimes. Yeah, where else in the world? And again, that's why for me it wasn't just the victory, but it was the manner of the performance.

7:28And to think that a team that has got players that have got other jobs and only train a couple of nights a week can go and totally outplay a Premier League team is just absolutely incredible. That is why it is the best cup of competition in the world. And, you know, for me, I'm a huge fan. I grew up with the FA Cup watching it, you know, and I just feel that, you know, these are the stories that we need, you know, to keep it as relevant as it should be because it's brilliant. The other thing, probably, Sam, for you as well, I mean, you come from a family steeped in non-league football, don't you?

7:58So you know the importance of it to communities. Yeah, I mean, I grew up with it with my dad and I don't know if you know, but Saturday was the 45th anniversary of when my dad scored for Altrincham against Liverpool in the FA Cup. And after we won the second round, he reminded me that I still needed to make the third round four more times to catch him up. So then I asked him after the game the other day, I said, have you reached the fourth round now? So I got my own back on that one. The football club, especially Macclesfield, It is probably the biggest community-run club you'll ever see. It's full of amazing people.

8:40They've got teams from the children all the way up to the first team. It's all like one, and that's the special thing about non-league. You'll have the players interacting with the fans after the game. It's all one club, and that's why it's amazing that we've got another home draw. That club means so much to a lot of good people, and they can all be there and be together and, again, have that moment that we probably didn't think we'd have the chance of repeating. well I'm sure it will be on telly again so that little little kid's dog will be waving at you for a second time when we get to the middle of February cheers cheers guys thank you well thank you Sam Heathcote with us on five lives but can't fail to put a smile on your face Dion can it no I think Joey we kind of summed it up it's just that is that's football for me I mean how grounded is he by the way he's such a chilled out man that's just achieved something incredible, goes back into work and just cracks on.

9:30I just think it's great, judging by the way he is, if his teammates are the same and they've approached the game with such humble hearts and big hearts, then they deserve to go through. We're going to talk Real Madrid in a little while. Xavi Alonso is gone this afternoon, so we'll talk about that. First, though, Michael Carrick set to be the caretaker head coach of Manchester United until the end of the season. No decision has actually been made yet. We're expecting it in the next 24, 48 hours. From your time watching Middlesbrough, Joby, in the Championship, what will a Michael Carrick team look like?

10:08One that is very, very controlled with possession. Really want to dominate the ball. I think that's one clear identity. And that's one thing I will say about him as a coach. If you watch a Middlesbrough side under him, you knew exactly what they were going to look like. So, again, I think that's something that he will try and obviously transfer over to United, preferably for him, probably a 4-2-3-1 or a variation of a 4-3-3, which I think from United's perspective have got definitely the players to play that. I think from an attacking point of view, really, really good football. Again, I think he really will get that forward unit going.

10:42I think as an attacking player, they reveled under him on numerous occasions and numerous players that did really well. I think what handicapped him at times was having to sell their top players, but that was largely due to how well they did in that attacking sense and obviously in midfield, which has been a big problem for Manchester United, he obviously got some real, real good players there going. Hayden Hackney is a young, up-and-coming, fantastic footballer. Anyone who doesn't watch a lot of EFL, he will be a Premier League player very, very soon and obviously Michael Carrick had a big part in his rise really.

11:12So I think they will see a team that has a clear style, clear identity and one that likes to play attacking and possession-based football. He's got his work cut out though, Dion, hasn't he? Given how flat everything is going to be when he arrives and how basically they haven't, apart from trying to qualify for a European spot, they haven't got anything else to play for. I think the hard work is getting the boys to believe that they can again, to be honest with you. I think Jobe is spot on. It's got to be more than believe, hasn't it, Dion? Yeah, no, no, no. Some of them have got to put some effort in.

11:43No, no, no. What I'm trying to say, Champions, is they've got to believe that if they do put the effort in, it can work. at the moment they don't even believe that it can work they're not putting the effort in well I say that I hope they're putting the effort in but it doesn't look like they are because I hate questioning footballers effort because that's all you should do as a basic however when you watch United you think hold it a minute why don't you close that down why don't you close him down why don't you play that pass why can't you play that pass and it's only the Man United players that are making punters think like that because they're getting it wrong so often it shouldn't be that hard for Man United to get results with the quality they have.

12:18The last time they did this, because they've done this before, where they've got a caretaker until the end of the season, I mean, I was going to say it fizzled out, but it didn't really. The mood around the place just got worse and worse and worse under Ralph Ragnick. Why would it be any different? Because this squad and some of the squad is exactly the same from two or three years ago, you know, we'll know that Michael Carrick isn't going to be there after the summer. You know what, Chappers, and Joby will tell you this as well, sometimes you know, the manager can't change things, won't be able to change things.

12:55Sometimes you need to hear it from your teammates who look you in your eye and they say, hold it a minute, why didn't you close him down? Why didn't you mark him? Point some fingers at your teammate to get the best out of your teammate. Sometimes it comes from within, not staff. I cannot believe we're at a stage again where we're seeing Manchester United go for an interim whoever that interim is i mean it is just rinse and repeat and for me they're going to end up with the same results and listen we're talking about completely different levels i went in as an interim sort of february till the end of the season and you might get a bit of a bounce to start with if they want to buy into how michael wants to play but then there's so much uncertainty it's almost like a void what is going to happen next and that's the last thing that for me you can give a group of players that is massively underperforming which is what manchester united has been doing for me this is however long it takes you get a permanent manager in now you use this season of course they've got ambitions and the goal is to get into the Champions League I'm very very sure whether they are good enough to do that I'm not quite sure but then you almost use this season for a new manager to get in find out those players if it is a case of maybe some that are not pulling their weight or some that are just not good enough to play the way that new manager wants and then you crack on from next season you give them a pre-season I just feel you're almost kicking the can down the road time and time again.

14:09And Manchester United is just too big a football club to be doing that, in my opinion. And the final thing there, Dion, going back to your point, when did they last look like a squad of players who point the finger at each other and demand responsibility from each other? I think Brian Lobson was the last person to do that, to be honest with you. But, Chappers, you know what I mean? Well, I mean, when did they? I mean, it's all very well everybody hammering managers all the time. Correct, I agree. I agree with you, Chappers. 100 % and you know what we're talking about Man United yes of course they have to do it there's a lot of teams out there that don't do it anymore is it a dying art and I know Joby's been on the training pitch as a coach is it a dying art that you know you don't want to upset your mate because you know I don't want to make him cry what's going on this is your job this is your job there's definitely a lack of what I would call real leaders in dressing rooms and listen leadership almost itself has evolved and changed you don't get as much of the the barking and those days are gone.

15:08No, but have you said that, Joby? And I go back to saying, you know, I'm not trying to say Macclesfield's midfield is better than United's, but Macclesfield had a leader in Paul Dawson who didn't have to shout at people, but he carried himself as a leader. You could see a leader in it. Yeah, but that comes down to recruitment as well, Trav. I'm not saying there isn't any leaders out there. Of course there is, but then how much input has a manager got over signings these days? and people look at data and stats and analysis. What you cannot see with that is, are you the type that when things are going against you, you're going to get people going, you're going to run that little bit harder or demand that from the person next to you?

15:46And I think we just live in a world now where all this data and it might look good on a piece of paper, but clearly it's not working out on the pictures where you really need it. I agree, Joby, and sometimes, you know, and I hate to go back because this is all I know. This is all I know is Sir Alex. He would buy the person. He would buy the personality. he would buy that first knowing full well there's a player there of course but he would bring people in that would do the basics which is blood, sweat and tears and then I know I bought the talent as well so you have to buy the player that's going to fit in exactly what you've said there Joey I totally agree with you 100 % Let's go from one soap opera to another shall we Xavi Alonso has left his position as head coach of Real Madrid by mutual consent after just eight months in charge Alvaro Arbeloa has been named as the new head coach.

16:33Guillaume Palaguet from EuroLeague joins us now. Just on the second point there with Arbeloa before we come on to Xavi Alonso, is he the permanent head coach or is he a club legend in interim charge until the summer? He's been in charge of the team until the end of the season. Right. That's it. Arbeloa was up till now the first youth manager, then the Real Madrid B, Castilla, manager was doing okay. But he was always told, I reckon since October, just be ready in case you get the call. And he got the call today. Well, that does show some forward planning, I suppose. Yeah, I think the sacking, because it's not by mutual consent.

17:16It's definitely sacking, yeah? It's a sacking. The sacking started being planned, organized, prepared in October after the defeat against Atletico Madrid. But perhaps the foundations of Xavi Alonso were very strong for minute one. Do you know when you arrive to a club, you are at your strongest when you first arrive in your first decisions? And he goes and says, no, no, sorry, I'm not going to be in the Club World Cup. What did he do? He went to the Club World Cup as a manager for Madrid because they didn't give him an option. So from then on, his authority was challenged. And I think everybody felt, the players are the first ones to feel this.

17:58They've got such a sharpness in their mind and their ears. They realized that he had no authority because Florentino Perez, the chairman, didn't really trust what he was bringing. It was suggested to him in the same way that in the past Lopetegui or Rafa Benitez was suggested to him. And he went like, yeah, OK, this could be, you know, the push of Real Madrid towards a modern football. But he didn't have the strength to do it, the power to do it, the authority to do it. Is this sort of final proof, and you mentioned a couple of others there, but is this final proof that you can't coach Real Madrid?

18:33You can manage Real Madrid, but you can't coach Real Madrid. You cannot coach Real Madrid and Florentino Pérez 100%. And if you remember Florentino Pérez, when he started the Galactico era, he left because he felt that he had spoiled the players. Because his idea was to look after the players and a manager, anybody could do that job. He went because he went too far. But he's just done exactly the same thing. There is no space for the manager. And there is some pictures from the Super Cup. I don't know if you've seen it, where having got the medal, Real Madrid players, you're supposed to wait and give the guard of honour to Barcelona.

19:13Mbappé starts with his arm going like, no, no, let's go into the changing room. Xavi kind of turned round and with his arm was saying, no, no, no, stay, stay. And he went like, Kylian went like, no, no, we're going in. So Xavi turned and went away. He didn't want to. So this was in front of our eyes, a picture of a manager that has got no control over the team and the team is run by the players. So at that point, I'm thinking, I think he just said I had enough. And then I rang the right people. It was no, no. He did not expect this to happen. At half past four this afternoon, the board met just before that.

19:47They told Xabi, we're meeting with one only theme on the table, which is you sacking. So you'll hear from us. And then soon enough, they did tell him and his agent and everything has been agreed. It may be impossible to tell this, but that scenario that you have just described at the end of the Super Cup, which was basically Kylian Mbappe doing what he wanted and getting the rest of the squad to follow, would that have happened under Ancelotti or Zidane? It would have been a different kind of agreement by which there is such a leeway for players and the either of them, and they could do on the pitch more or less what they wanted.

20:25And that quiet agreement, if you like, between managers and players worked. So, no, perhaps it wouldn't happen. So it was another challenge in the same way that Vinicius, when he was replaced at the Classico in the minute 70-something, he started putting up and down his arms in front of everybody. He was so unhappy. And then he apologized a couple of days later, not the next day, but forgot to mention the manager. Apologized to everybody apart from the manager. And, of course, his negotiations about his future stopped at that point. to see what happened with Xavi Alonso. But honestly, he did not expect this to happen.

21:01But at the same time, let me tell you that the word that he feels right now has been used to me as relief. So, I mean, there are two things, aren't there? First of all, there's what's next for him. And secondly, where do Real Madrid go then in the summer, bearing in mind what we've just talked about as the kind of person that they need. Xavi Alonso next. Nobody knows if he's going to go like, you know what, I think I need a rest. This has been tough for me. But he knows that big clubs in Europe that may need a manager next season will call him and will say, you are our man straight away. Big, big clubs in Europe.

21:47Some have got managers that will continue. Others are thinking of getting rid of the managers. But the message that he has arrived to him is that, yeah, Xavi Alonso, definitely, yes, he's a top manager. And in terms of… Real Madrid, yeah. How about Zinedine Zidane? If he doesn't go with France, that is the profile. That is the kind of manager that they want. But I think he's dreaming of… The champs is leaving, isn't he? Yeah. Dreaming to lead France, in which case they're going to have to look for another Ancelotti, another Zidane Zidane. And there are many around. And Florentino Pettit had this thing in his head about Jurgen Klopp.

22:23Don't ask me why, because it's nothing to do with either of them. But he liked the idea of having him around. But he wouldn't tolerate what we're talking about, would he? Not just that. He's retired from management. That's quite clear. But it's not easy. It's not easy. And there's going to be a lot of people putting their name forward. But don't be surprised if he ends up being, I don't know, Santi Solari, who was there before, who's a club man and still there, or somebody like that. We'll see. Thank you, Guillaume. Guillaume Balaguet with us from EuroLeague. Xavi Alonso leaving Real Madrid. Alvaro Abelola in charge until the summer.

23:01And then who knows what will happen.

23:12Hello, this is Matt Jolly's Urgent Questions, your daily dose of political mayhem from the heart of Westminster. Order, order. I call Matt Chorley. I'm a supporter of flags. It turns out time is finite. Government doesn't want to be involved in this. I do not think the candidates are frivolous. Matt Chorley's urgent questions. Subscribe to the podcast and you'll get the best bits every day from around five o 'clock. Listen on BBC Sounds. On the Football Daily Podcast. The Debrief. With Mark Chapman. So Liverpool will face Brighton in the fourth round of the FA Cup after they beat League One Barnsley 4-1 at Anfield.

23:51I think the conceded the fourth was a little bit harsh on them, Dion, don't you? Yeah, I do, actually. Yeah, you know, three sounds about right, but four, yeah, it sounds like they've been absolutely flashed and they haven't. You know what, it's really odd that they'll come off the pitch and they'll feel to themselves, you know, we did OK here, we did OK. Even though they conceded the goals, their attitude and their application to the game was great. and yeah, they unfortunately conceded the fourth. Liverpool had so much possession, they were always going to create chances and score, and I think it was just the pace of the passing chap as in the last 15 minutes, just they couldn't take it anymore, Barnsley, they were shattered, did all they could.

24:29They hung on for as long as they could as well, but proud, very proud of them, well done. Although what I would say, Joby McAdooffa is with us as well, that they did have more than the odd chance, didn't they? I mean, if you think right in that first minute with Davis Keeler done hitting the post. They obviously scored the goal through St Bosley's mistake, but Jürgen Nathan was a couple of studs away from getting on the end of the cross. Race, clearly, I feel he ought to have had a penalty. I mean, I've seen that several times. I'm still not 100 % sure myself which way I would give that, really.

25:02Yeah, I think 4-1's really harsh on Barnsley. I don't think they were certainly not as bad as that from a performance point of view. I don't think Liverpool were as good as 4-1. I just thought it's sometimes what you come up against is that real top level quality. So Bozlai's goal, Fringpong's goal, absolutely excellent. And you're bringing on two absolute top, top players, Eketike and Verts, who when you are a little bit leggy and you've done as much running as they have done without the ball, you know, but in terms of their own moments, I thought they were disciplined. I thought they were really well organised, made it difficult for Liverpool to break them down for the most part.