The Debrief: Sorry England humbled in Spain

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1:09Vicki Sparks:So England have failed to take the chance to qualify for next summer's Women's World Cup, losing 4-0 to Spain in Mallorca. I'm Katie Smith. Alongside me, former England midfielder Frank Kirby, our commentator Vicky Sparks. And Vicky, let's just lay out firstly, before we dive into that disappointing performance and what went wrong for England, let's lay out the situation now in terms of qualification as it stands after that game's been played.

1:36Fran Kirby:Yeah, so Spain with that 4-0 victory, they came into this game knowing that they had to win by two or more goals to really put themselves in the driving seat for World Cup qualification. So they are now top of the group. They're level on points with England, but they're ahead on head to head. So it does go down to the final qualifiers. England are at home to Ukraine. That's on Tuesday night, live on Five Live, eight o 'clock from Everton's Hill, Dickinson Stadium. That is a game that England will expect to win. Spain are away to Iceland. Now, apart from facing England in this group for Spain, that is Spain's trickiest qualifier.

2:11Fran Kirby:But if Spain match England's results in terms of winning if England win, drawing if England draw, losing if England lose, Spain will be going through automatically as group winners and England will be heading into the playoffs as reigning European champions for next summer's World Cup.

2:30Vicki Sparks:That was such a disappointing display, Fran, in so many aspects for England. It's the most one-sided iteration we've had of this ever-growing rivalry so far. Never been more than a one-goal margin previously. Why was it so one-sided in terms of quality today?

2:47Katie Smith:I think we have to give credit to Spain. I think the way that they performed tonight, the way that they moved the ball, the way that they kept the ball, the directness that they had. England struggled. They really struggled to get any form of pressure. And that's what happens when you come up against a top team. It's really difficult to play against. But, you know, it's disappointing that England's best spells came, you know, when the game was kind of out of their reach. But I think, like I said, it will be a lot of learnings from England for this. I think they'll learn how it feels to play against a team that's in full flow, a team that's finding the pockets, finding the spaces, and they'll know how this hurts.

3:26Katie Smith:This will hurt. I'm hurt watching it. I'm hurt seeing, you know, the girls and the way that they deflated after the game. So they'll learn from it. They'll have to rise up to it, and they have to put in a good performance against Ukraine, which I'm sure they will. And I imagine from your perspective then, Fran,

3:39Vicki Sparks:frustrating at times to watch, say, in the first half especially, those risky decisions being made out the back, passing around the area as opposed to getting some long balls up there. When, yes, England are not there to get a draw, they made that clear before the game began, but they still had a lot to play for if they were to draw or win. And I just wonder if they were not making the correct, the sensible decisions at times.

4:08Katie Smith:Yeah, look, it's difficult, isn't it? Because I think you also want to play your style of football. And England like to build up from the back. They like to be in possession of the ball. So you've got that element. You've got Kira Walsh. You've got Georgia Stanway, who you also want to be involved. And I don't think they were enough in the first half because of the way that Spain set up their press. So you want to have that element of, you know, we're going to play the way that we play. But I think after a couple of times when it wasn't working, I think you have to take that moment and go, this isn't working.

4:36Katie Smith:Let's get up, get together, try and play off second balls. Because physically, England can compete in that midfield. they just didn't change it quick enough I don't think and I think that's where they struggled and that's where Spain became so dominant because when Spain won the ball back their centre-backs were in England's half England never pushed them low enough that it was going to be difficult for Spain to play so yes I think you have that element of you want to play your style of football but as you said they turn it over a few too many times and that should send some alarm bells of okay like maybe we need to change something here and on that point actually Vicky we have seen

5:11Vicki Sparks:England able to adapt to those situations as Fran was saying before. This idea of proper England, that mentality they came up with through tournaments to describe sometimes these pragmatic, gritty wins. It didn't feel like they could ever even assert that style of football on

5:27Fran Kirby:the game today. No, and I think Fran touched on it there. I think the thing that stood out to me most in this defeat, which is the biggest defeat that England have suffered under Serena Vigman, was the level of individual errors across the park. And I think that is just so hard for England fans to hear and to watch tonight and for the players as well. I mean, we praised England and rightly so for the way that they played against Spain less than two months ago at Wembley where they got the early goal through Lauren Hemp and every single player stepped up. Lots of Iben Moy and Esme Morgan in that game, again deputising for the injured Leah Williamson who wasn't available the England captain again tonight were colossuses at Wembley less than two months ago against this Spain side who again were very similar to the side that lined up against England at Wembley and tonight they look nervy they look shaky but it wasn't just them every single player it felt like in the first half was misplacing passes and the only ones that weren't were players that couldn't get on the ball And it was just, it was such a strange performance from England, given that they beat Spain so well at Wembley less than two months ago, given that they beat Spain in the European Championship final, given that, as you say, Katie, they found so many ways to fight back when we thought that all was lost.

6:49Fran Kirby:Michel Adjimang again and again, penalty shootouts, late goals taking games to extra time, and they just didn't get to grips at all with any sense of doing that tonight. And I think that will be hugely, hugely disappointing for Serena Wigman, for these players and for Spain. You know, what a statement this is. You know, it felt like this was a side who turned up with their World Cup qualification hopes on the line as reigning world champions and came here to Mallorca and said, you know what? We are going to show the world once more what we're about. They were sublime. They were nearly perfect in every single aspect.

7:28Fran Kirby:and I think teams in Brazil next year, look, it's not done yet. We know it's not done yet. It will go down to the final round of games. But if they get to Brazil, and we expect that they will do, I think teams should be very, very fearful of Spain.

7:42Vicki Sparks:Do you think, Fran, that Spain did come into this game with a point to prove? Because I know there's been a lot of, probably more jesting, light jesting in the media about revenge with these two sides and the to-ing and fro-ing of who's won what. And often players back that away. but do you think they did?

8:00Katie Smith:Oh, 100%. 100%. They played tonight that they wanted, they played like they had a point to prove and I think as I said in air, there's been a lot of talk around the game at Wembley about the rivalry, about how Spain struggled against England, this, that. There's been a lot of talk and I think you saw tonight from minute one, Spain were, we're going to take this to you. We're going to show you what we're made of and we're going to go to another level and England just couldn't match it tonight. And I think, like I said, you have to give credit to Spain because they were fantastic tonight. And I do think they played with a point to prove.

8:33Fran Kirby:And again, Katie, just to say, that talk wasn't just coming from the England side of things. I was in the Spanish press conferences yesterday here in Mallorca and a member of the Spanish press asked their manager, Sonia Bermudez, you know, is England this bogey team for Spain? And she kind of, you know, deflected the question and said, well, every match is different. But that pressure, those questions were coming from their own media as much as English media were talking about the fact that England have got the best of Spain over the last couple of huge meetings. And I think Fran's right. They came here with a point to prove.

9:06Fran Kirby:We have players here again from Mallorca, Lucia Corrales, who plays for London City Lionesses, was absolutely fabulous. And for her in particular and the likes of Catecoy and Guillaro, they're from Mallorca to step out here. Mariona Caldente as well, to come and play here in front of what is such a real home crowd that really got behind them and really enjoyed what they saw. You know, you could see on so many levels

9:31Vicki Sparks:what it meant to Spain tonight. It's going to be a quick turnaround. England now have their final game against Ukraine at home on Tuesday. But this is the biggest loss under Serena Vigman. They've actually never been in this situation before.

9:45Katie Smith:No, and that will be tough. And, you know, Kira sums it up perfectly. When you do play a team like Spain and they're in this flow, it feels like they have more players than you on the pitch. You press in one of them and then you've got two on either shoulder. When they're in full flow, when they're moving and doing everything that they're good at, it's near impossible to know what is the right solution. So it's going to be really raw emotions, as you said, obviously being the biggest loss under Serena. But they can learn from it. They will learn from it because it's the first time it's happened.

10:16Katie Smith:It's the first time that they've been beaten the way that they have been beaten by Spain, by any team. so they have things to learn from now and they'll know that feeling and when you're an athlete and when you're a sports person a footballer you don't want to feel that again you don't want to walk off the pitch feeling that kind of way again yes Spain were incredible tonight and everything that they did but it'll be a massive learning curve for England because they're gonna come up against the likes of Spain in the World Cup against the USA against the Brazil against Japan who are also very good on the ball so it will be a massive learning curve for them because this hasn't happen before so they have to learn from it and they have to learn from it quickly yes ukraine is a different element in terms of maybe the quality you know it's not going to be the same as spain but this will be a learning for a year's time and i think that's how serena will look at it as well right let's hear from the lionesses boss then serena viegman with nebka serena thank you for

11:07Fran Kirby:your time a tough evening this evening and an uncharacteristic performance under yourself as

11:12Vicki Sparks:well what are your overriding emotions uh yeah a huge disappointment um of course um you can you can lose games because then uh you know you know when you play against spain that it's going to be a hard game but the difference today was big and that was the most disappointing and i think we started well actually um but after they got their first goal um yeah we found it really hard to get back in the game stay in the game and we played a bit in their hands playing short instead of trying to get in their backs and skip players. And when they had the ball, they played really well and we were really struggling with their dynamics and the way they played.

11:54Fran Kirby:So many of these recent scorelines have been one goal margins, draws so tight, but that wasn't the case tonight. Do you think Spain played a bit more directly and did that play into it at all?

12:04Vicki Sparks:Yeah, they did. I think they played well and also they made even more runs in behind. They were even more dynamic than they were the last game we played them. And, of course, with some direct players, Paraluelo in form. They put in Mada in the starting line-up, who's very dangerous in front of the goal, too. And then they have other options from the bench, too. But, you know, we're still a very good team. We have to be at our very, very best to get a good result against Spain. And I think they were at their best today, and we weren't. and unfortunately that gave this scoreline.

12:41Fran Kirby:World Cup qualification now out of your hands, but it's not the end of the story. A huge game coming up against Ukraine and you know how difficult going to Iceland away is. What are you going to say to regroup going into the next week?

12:54Vicki Sparks:Yeah, well, this is a tough one. These are the hardest moments for teams because everyone, of course, really disappointed and that hurts. But yeah, tomorrow we do recovery and then the mindset is getting ready for Ukraine. and show that we're still a very good team and that we can beat Ukraine. That's what we have to do and play well.

13:15Fran Kirby:And just finally, you'll be at home, you'll be on Merseyside. How important will the home fans be to make sure you get a really good result against Ukraine?

13:21Vicki Sparks:Yeah, of course, the fans are always behind. You saw that tonight too. And even after the game, they were cheering. And there were a lot of fans too that took the opportunity to go to Mallorca here. So we really, really appreciate that. and we know when we go back to England that they will support us and we'll show that we really appreciate that they will come and watch us. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Let's get a bit more reaction from Kira Walsh then. She's speaking to Nivkar.

13:48Fran Kirby:Kira, a tough evening. It was never going to be easy tonight, but what's your overriding emotion knowing that World Cup qualification was on the line and an opportunity missed?

13:57Katie Smith:Yeah, I think obviously we're all disappointed. I think we weren't good enough tonight. I think there were a lot of reasons why that was the case, but I think, yeah, they were very, very good. I think at home we know how good they are. So, yeah, I think the overriding emotion is just disappointment because, yeah, World Cup qualification is out of our hands a little bit now.

14:15Fran Kirby:When we preview England-Spain, there's so much talk about being comfortable being uncomfortable, but what's it like as a player when it feels like it's just a bit out of your hands and it's almost chasing shadows out there?

14:25Katie Smith:Yeah, it's really, really difficult. I think tonight they made it, it was impossible almost to get up to the ball. felt like they had an extra player almost. But I think in moments we could have been a little bit more compact and patient and if we needed to protect our goal then I think we could have just sat a little bit lower. But it's easy to say that now the game's done. I think in the moment it's very, very difficult and they've got a number of unbelievable players.

14:46Fran Kirby:Qualocation out of your hands now, but if any team knows how difficult Iceland away is, it's yourselves. You're back at home next week on home soil. How important is the home support going to be?

14:55Katie Smith:Yeah, I think obviously a massive thanks to the fans who travelled out to Mallorca as well. Obviously, it wasn't a great game for them, but I think all we can do is just go and put the things right that we didn't do today on Tuesday and just, yeah, try and have a good game and then see what happens afterwards. But I think most importantly, it's just, yeah, to get back on the grass and get a win on Tuesday. Thank you for your time. Thank you.

15:15Vicki Sparks:Well, a chastening defeat for England tonight and a big game coming up on Tuesday. Thanks then to Frank Kirby and Vicky Sparks for us in Mallorca with coverage of that big loss. Spain 4, England 0. Spain in the driving seat now to get that automatic qualifying spot for the World Cup next summer. And we're going to bring you full coverage of that massive game now for the Lionesses against Ukraine on Tuesday. That is eight o 'clock on BBC Radio 5 Live.

15:48Vicki Sparks:There's this feeling you get when it's about to go in the net and everyone goes.

16:02Fran Kirby:I do know what that's called, but I know what it feels like. We know that feeling.

16:14Fran Kirby:The FIFA World Cup 2026. On 5 Live and BBC Sounds.