The Debrief: Thomas Frank under pressure as Tottenham lose again

0:00On the Football Daily Podcast, the Debrief with Kelly Cates. Welcome to the Football Daily Podcast. Here are your headlines. Tottenham lost to Newcastle in a toxic atmosphere in North London. The boos rang out as Spurs lost 2-1 to increase the pressure on Thomas Frank. West Ham thought they'd earned three vital points against Manchester United before Benjamin Sheshko's 96th minute equaliser. And Leeds came from two goals down to get a draw at Chelsea. Joining us, we've got the record goal scorer for the Lionesses, Ellen White, is here. Former Manchester City Tottenham Leeds United midfielder Michael Brown is with us.

0:39And former Newcastle Lurich and Netherlands keeper Tim Krul is here as well. But let's focus on Tottenham. Our senior football correspondent Sammy Mockbell joins us now. Evening, Sammy. Kelly, how are you? Very well indeed, thanks. But there's only one place to start and that's with the future of Thomas Frank after that 2-1 defeat at home to Newcastle. What's your thoughts on his future now? Yeah, another result, I think, Kelly, that pushes the situation to breaking point. If it wasn't already a breaking point, I think Tottenham now have a very big decision to make after tonight. I think there's been, after the West Ham defeat, where my understanding was that they were mightily close to making a decision to let Thomas Frank go.

1:20He's had a couple of good results, hasn't he, in the Champions League. But the Premier League form has continued to be poor. and that's underlined again tonight with another home defeat. Boos at half-time, boos at full-time and my understanding of the situation now is that I can't categorically sit here and tell you that he's going to get sacked as a result of this or he's going to go as a result of this but it is my understanding now that there is now a decision that needs to be made. There is a big decision, a step that they need to take. Do they stick or do they twist? I think the one thing that will count against Thomas Frank, there is now 12 days between the day and their next fixture, which is against Arsenal of all clubs.

2:08So that gives Tottenham with a, leaves them with a pretty big window to sort of make a decision. If they were to make a decision to get rid of Frank, to appoint a successor, whether it's on an interim or full-time basis. and that would also allow enough time for the new manager to get a plan in place for the game. So I think the next 24 hours is difficult for him. Any rumours on who could be? It's all right saying, let's go and make that change. Is there anything that you get? Yeah, look, Brownie, I think what Tottenham are looking at are they look at the summer and they think there will be a lot more managers available.

2:49you've got all the World Cup managers you've got the likes of Glasner who's going to be out of work and an I.E. Riola his contract is up at the end of the season, he would probably be of interest. Marco Silva's contract's up and you've got the likes of Carlo Ancelotti, Thomas Tuchel and obviously Mauricio Pochettino in the summer who will all be available after the World Cup so I think ideally they would like to wait and maybe make an interim appointment. The problem is there's only a month between the end of the World Cup and the start of the Premier League season. So if you were thinking of coming in and having some time to get the players ready, and this is particularly pertinent, I think, for Mauricio Pochettino, because the Spurs fans were singing his name tonight.

3:33He's got a big job on until the end of July. Absolutely. Listen, his focus will be on the World Cup with the USA. They're the host nation. It's a massive deal for him. It's a massive deal for the country. And, you know, I don't think the United States Soccer Federation will allow Mauricio Pochettino's focus to be shifted elsewhere, even 1%. So he has to focus on that. But for sure, I can see a scenario where Mauricio Pochettino becomes the apple of Tottenham's eye if they do get rid of Thomas Frank and also the supporters' eyes, given the legendary status in many ways that he has still at the club.

4:16We haven't seen the owner since Daniel Levy left. We haven't seen them in a situation where they've had to make a decision of this magnitude. So we don't know how they operate under these circumstances. Yeah, no, that is a very good point, Kelly. There isn't a body of work to suggest where their breaking point may be. But I would hazard an educated guess here, given the conversations that I've had over the past three or four weeks, that I think we're pretty close to reaching the point of no return. Yeah, I think it could compel the ownership into making a decision over Thomas Frank's future. Michael, we know what would have happened, We think we know what would have happened under Daniel Levy.

4:59Very slick, very organised. He had already been weeks ahead, you know, regarding he would have had them all ready to go. And then especially into this game, he'd be looking at what's around him and he'd sort of go, right, if I have to react, I've already spoke to him. Rightly or wrongly, he has got that level of sort of, and you have to be ready, don't you? Because anything can happen any single day. I think, Sammy, the problem we've got is, is we're talking about managers for the future all not available now. And it's swung into a decision. I'm listening to people and they're saying, right, they desperately don't want to do this right now.

5:35They want to just wait. Hopefully it didn't get to this. But the hand now might need to be forced. And it's a case of, it's like Manchester United had to do it, didn't they? And then they had a week or so to try and find a reaction. And then they go, right, we're going to go with Carrick. It's one of those moments for Spurs. It's absolutely bang on the money, Brownie. because this is a decision that they have done everything to try and avoid to make. What they see in Thomas Frank is they believe they've got a good manager who's been dealt a rough hand. And I think to many cases, he has been dealt a rough hand.

6:13The injury list is well documented. I think if we look back at the last few transfer windows, They lost Harry Kane, Heung-Min Son, who have been their main source of goals. And they lack leadership in that squad. I think that was part of the reason that they tried to sign Andy Robertson during the final days of the transfer window. There's so many deficiencies in that squad. And I think the club as a whole have recognised and acknowledged that. And they wanted to give, and they wanted to give the manager the benefit of the doubt. but I think his body of work at the club just suggests that he may not be given the time that the club want to give him.

6:54The other question, whether it's Thomas Frank or whether they do make the change and it's a new manager, is what more can be done, Tim, not with the squad of players but with the fit players available? Yeah, I'm just looking at the bench tonight and I think most of them are just kids and yes, I feel for Thomas Frank in that way but ultimately it's a whole season and then you think, all right, you've got 12 games to go. Is this the right time? Is this enough time for somebody to turn it around and cement this kind of Premier League status? And that's what you need to look at as a club like Tottenham.

7:28There's no way Tottenham Stadium should be in the Championship by any stretch but this is where it's at now and the decision makers are going to wake up with a headache if they don't make the right decision. Do you know, Ryan Mason stepped into that before, hasn't he? Somebody knows the club. but we're watching United as a state. Is he somebody who you sort of go, right, get him in. It's a change of voice just while we have a little look at the situation if they're going to make that, if they're going to make the change. Yeah, you can see it's an area where that would be an option, but that would only be an option in my opinion because of what you sort of alluded to, Brownie.

8:03There isn't, if you look at the landscape of available managers, there just isn't one off the top of my head who would be of the magnitude or the calibre of manager that Tottenham would want to go for. So I think they're going to have to go down the short-term interim route until the summer. Yes, Ryan Mason would probably fit the bill on a short-term basis, but is he going to want to go back to Tottenham just for a six-month period? He'd go for three games in a heartbeat. That might be their best option then. Thank you very much to Sammy Mockbell. Let's get some reaction from the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium from Thomas Frank.

8:41Of course, it hurts massively that we couldn't get the win today. No doubt about that. I see a team running and fighting out there with everything they have. They give everything in a tricky and difficult situation against a good team that make it difficult for us, especially the first half. I think we came back in second half and equalised. And then it's symbolic for our season that we have a transition going one way and they go the other way and then we just defend it badly in that moment and then we concede the second goal, which we shouldn't do. I know basically you've got a full team, first team out with injuries and suspensions at the moment.

9:23You've alluded to it in your answer there. Are you getting enough out of the players that are fit and available to you? I think it's, as you say, it's a two-sided question. I think definitely 10 players with injuries and a suspension for Ferdinand's band and another injury after 30 minutes 100 % doesn't help. I am absolutely sure any coach would like to have more available players because it's easier to get more out of everything. But I have never complained. It's what I have available and we do everything we can to put a competitive team out there. It can't escape you. I don't think it escaped anybody.

10:03There were boos at full time. what is your message right now to the Tottenham Hotspur supporters tonight? Yeah, but I understand the frustration. 100%. It's not a good position we're in. And also, how can you say, been building up a little bit. Last season, it was a bit similar playing Europe and Premier League. This season is a bit similar to Europe and Premier League. So there's something in the squad to build that resilience physically and mentally to do that. and I also understand it's directed against me. That's the easiest way to do it. But I'm also 100 % sure about it's a team effort. It's not only one person.

10:47We're all aligned and know what needs to be done. And the next thing I can promise is that I will work very hard every single day to do everything I can to turn around with a lot of other good people. You have a break now over a week to your next fixture. We know what that fixture is, the North London derby. I think, first of all, it has to be asked, you still want to be here to be in charge of that fixture, but what can you do in the next 10, 11 days now to reset, refresh and change the fortunes of this season? Yeah, I think it was a bit of refresh first. I think everyone needs that because, of course, things are not going the right way.

11:29It's tough to be in player staff, everyone. so that's the first thing after that we need to have a very good training week make sure we get a top of everything and make sure we get a top team out there That was Thomas Frank on what was a tough night for Tottenham

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12:36Chelsea were 2-0 up against Leeds, who came back to draw 2-all. Everton were 1-0 up against Bournemouth. Bournemouth won it 2-1. Everton then down to 10 men in that game. Newcastle were 1-0 up against Tottenham, who pulled it back to 1-all through Archie Gray. Then Jacob Ramsey got the winner for Newcastle. It leaves Tottenham right in the mix for the relegation places. And it would have been even more so if West Ham had managed to hold on to that 1-0 advantage that they had against Manchester United, but which went in the final minutes of that game. It's the bottom that's come alive, isn't it?

13:08Leeds United look like, OK, we're struggling, we're 2-0 down, and then they show some recovery, some fight. That's a big place of a Chelsea side who are in form. But that West Ham performance, really, really strong. Spurs, the boos. I mean, we can keep going on, can't we, and keep looking, but it's now getting into a position where consistency is going to be key. You need to have a bit of luck. The planning is key. And there's some experienced managers down there in this fight who've been around it, who understand the way around. I did fear for West Ham. I didn't think they had an opportunity, had a chance, unless they were creative at the end of the window.

13:47They did a little bit, not as much as we thought, but it's a big blow, but I feel like the training ground would be a good place. And Ellen, from a West Ham point of view, what's your feeling on the final whistle? I think it's two points dropped for West Ham. I think 26 points would have put them in an amazing position. And now, Nottingham Forest, no disrespect to Wolves, if they go get that win, that's 29 points that Forest are on. That's five points. That's a huge mountain to climb for them again. So I think this is going to be a huge, devastating result for them. Yes, Manchester United have been on great form.

14:21West Ham have been on great form. But I think three points would have been such, such a good result for them and would have put them in such a better position. I'm not sure whether one point is enough for tonight. And Manchester United created so many chances, so many opportunities in that game. They had a couple of goals disallowed for offside. There were chances in that for them. And yet West Ham managed to keep them at bay. Yeah, they were knocking on the door all night. West Ham, first clean sheet since August in the weekend. And they were so close to do it again tonight. And that's one of the things when Nuno came into the club.

14:57That's what we all expected, to be more solid at the back. And they showed massive signs tonight that they could. But literally, this is the quality you face in the Premier League. What a finish from Cesc. I mean, that's incredible as a number nine to come off the bench and make a difference what he did there for United and continue that amazing start from Carrick. And this is how it leaves the bottom of the table with Wolves and Burnley both to play tomorrow night. West Ham still inside the bottom three. The gap between them and Nottingham Forest is two points. West Ham on 24. Nottingham Forest, who play against Wolves tomorrow night on 26.

15:34Tottenham, whose fans may well have been celebrating that late equaliser for Manchester United, on 29 points. That's now five points from the bottom three. Then it's Leeds United, who got a point from 2-0 down against Chelsea tonight on 30. Then it's Brighton and Crystal Palace, a point and then two points further on than that. it's actually not a bad result for Tottenham either when we were saying this was a terrible night for them. It's one glimmer of hope. We were joking, weren't we? Do you know when that goal went in? We said, Thomas Frank, whoa, wait on a second. You might not have to do that yet.

16:04We might not have the replay schedule. They might not be ready. So for West Ham, that's a huge point for them. It'd be disappointing with the way they went, but take the credit, take how they've performed, take how they've pushed Manchester United, who are in form. Their next game, I think it's home to Bournemouth, Kelly. So that is the game where you go, right, that's the must win for them. And then that's the one they've got to try and close the gap. But it's been fascinating. It's over to Forrest now, isn't it? Leeds United have done their job and Spurs, what is next? I mean, it's just been a brilliant night of football and that's what we're expecting.

16:38That's what we hope for. But West Ham are coming back and showing great signs. Manchester United, despite dropping points against West Ham, also coming back because in terms of the performance, there was that sort of cohesion that we've come to see under Michael Carrick that was there Yeah they're forced to be reckoned with again and I think that's the difference that fear factor of Man United is back and I think especially at Old Trafford it's got that I mean what a special place to play in football and I think that that fortress at Old Trafford is back that Fergie time we've seen over the last few weeks is well and truly back the belief again yeah tonight I think they would have hoped for three points while unbeaten runners continuing.

17:20And a word on that finish, Ellen. As England's record goal scorer, thoughts on Sheshko's finish? It was sublime. It was such a deft touch. He was actually outside of the near post as well. So to be able to kind of get his toes to kind of be able to kind of whip that in the top corner was something special. And he looks like he's gained a lot of confidence from having Michael Carrick in charge. and he just looks like a completely different player. He's always had good movement, obviously, but I just think he needed that confidence, that arm around his shoulder to say that you are a good striker, you do get good positions.

18:00And I think Michael Carrick's given him that and he's shown that in his performances and it was a wonderful finish. And again, he's keeping them at an unbeaten record. For Chelsea, it was a 2-0 draw against Leeds United. Chelsea were 2-0 up. Leeds United came back to draw 2-0. Liam Rossini spoke after the game. He shared the chat that he had with the ref after another controversial goal decision. I've liked what I've seen from this team. I know where we need to improve and we need to work on it on the training pitch. But overall, the players are giving me everything, every single one of them. And tonight, the frustration is that our performance didn't merit the result that we got.

18:37As you mentioned, you went in to see the referee. How did that chat go? What did he say? Not a really good open conversation. I wanted the rules explained to me, so I made sure that I got it right. Before I did my interviews and press conference, they were really honest with me. They said that he had to be the player that scored for it not to be disallowed. They're the laws. I think if you watch it back, if an attacking player handles the ball and it affects the flight of the ball so it affects my defenders, then in that moment, for me, it shouldn't be allowed. But there's no excuse. I can't remember them having a real shot on goal other than the penalty in that moment, and somehow we haven't managed to win the game.

19:13So they're the rules, but you think they're wrong? I'm not saying the rules are wrong. I'm saying sometimes there's logic. There's logic that just makes sense. I think if you see the moment back, you may agree with me. You can see real frustration there for Liam Rossini. Let's hear what Leeds manager Daniel Farker made of the game. I always believe in my team. Of course, I was feeling a bit for them because there's also a few players. Jakab Iol, the first appearance in the starting line-up after injury. Sebastian Bonneau, the first time since a while. and they were very unlucky also to be involved in the goals and I was hoping that they put this to bed and just keep going.

19:49And this also was my message at the sideline to the players. And yeah, I'm very happy. I was always convinced that we still have a chance if we score just one goal. And yeah, thank God they proved me right. How much credit should you take? You made those chances and the changes in the second half and it worked? Not at all. So all the credit goes to the players. So of course you can have an idea, but it's up to the players to bring it on the pitch and all the credit goes to my fantastic group of players and also like the players who made an impact, the players who played from the start because they stepped up when it was needed.

20:20Of course, also with Nooraka 4, of course, and you're happy when a player who comes in scores also a goal, but all the credit goes to the players. Thanks to Michael Brown, Ellen White and Tim Krull for being with us. That is all for the Football Daily Podcast. Steve Crossman will be back tomorrow, but from us, bye-bye.

21:04The Six Nations. Thank you.