The Debrief: Wales lose to Bosnia on penalties

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1:00on ad spend of major ad networks. Spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get $250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com slash broadcast. That's linkedin.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. On the Football Daily Podcast, The Debrief. Listen on BBC Sounds. Welcome to the Football Daily Podcast from the Cardiff City Stadium, where Wales have been knocked out of the World Cup qualifiers, losing to Bosnia and Herzegovina 4-2 on penalties. Alongside me are Dave Edwards, Tom Lockyer and Alistair Bruce Ball. The Wales players and coaching staff are in a huddle in the centre circle, no doubt wondering what may have been Craig Bellamy's head just poking out from the middle.

1:48I'm sure he's telling his players how proud he is of Wales as David Iwant's Amar Orhid, the unofficial anthem that Wales have had over the last few seasons just reminding everyone whatever happens Wales are still going to be here Brennan Johnson here is just trudging off the pitch down to our left through the tunnel he has his shirt over his face he will Dave Edwards be feeling so much heartbreak and your heart goes out to him because to miss a crucial penalty no one ever wants to be on the end of that. Yeah, Wales were in the ascendancy when Brennan Johnson stepped up to the ball and that's where they lost that little bit of momentum.

2:29Most of these Wales players head around the stadium to thank these incredible home fans. Brennan Johnson can't face it all. He heads down the tunnel. There's nothing that anyone can say to him that will make him feel any better. The same with Nico Williams. It's just a moment they're going to have to ponder over for the coming days, weeks, months, I'm sure, right the way through to the World Cup, but they'll come back stronger. Dan James got the goal here to set us off this evening. That could have easily been the winner after he was the one who missed the penalty here against Poland a couple of years ago.

3:01So they'll come back stronger, but there's nothing in this moment in time that you can say to Brennan Johnson or Nico Williams or to any of those Wales players to come for them in any way. It's such a contrast, isn't it? Because in that corner to the right of us, the far right corner, the Bosnia fans, and there's around 1 ,700 of them here tonight in the Cardiff City Stadium. They're bouncing, they're standing up, they're delighted. Their players are just turning away from them now. The celebrations will continue into the Cardiff night for them. The Wales players making their way slowly around the pitch, just thanking the support from the Wales fans, many of whom have already exited for their cars to transport to get home.

3:42Tom Lockyer, so disappointing, isn't it? Because to think Wales were four minutes away from being at a World Cup this summer. Yeah, absolutely, and Dave's hit the nail on the head. There's nothing that can be said at this moment in time. Time is the only thing that's going to help these players now, but they will have to get over it. They'll have another game coming up shortly, so you have to get around for that. But fair play to Bosnia, I think, over the 120 minutes, they probably deserved it fractionally. There probably wasn't much in it, but like you said, to be four minutes away from being knocked out themselves to go on and win it in penalties is quite the effort and the goalie as well having to have made the mistake to let Dan James score the opening goal to then go on and be the hero in the penalty shootout you have to take your hat off to him and yes the penalties weren't great but he still had to save one important one to take his team to a world cup and it's interesting Dave isn't it penalties, they can change on a dime because Carl Darlow saving that first penalty from Demirovic really, you felt, set the tone for the shootout but it just goes to show that you can never tell which way a penalty shootout is going to go.

4:58Not right up until the very end and you have to give credit to Alej Begovic, the 18-year-old who came on and made a real difference for Bosnia. They were on the ropes at 1-0 dine, they made their positive substitutions that come on and made a big difference he was a big part of that he got an assist and then regardless if it's the winning penalty he put his hand up to take the fifth one that is a huge amount of pressure on an 18 year old's shoulders and that shows his temperament and then he comes and he was he was calm and calculated but yes the brennan johnson penalty where he just felt a whole momentum shift not just in the actual shoe type in the stadium as well it felt like at that moment it just sucked the atmosphere away a little bit and then bosley go and score the next one and then the pressure ramps back up on Wales and Nico Williams with a wonderful penalty in the last penalty shot against Poland couldn't do the same again it's a good save by Vasil you went real early to his left hand side to get across to it and then it was all set the stage was set then for the youngster to go and win the game for Bosnia and the away fans have been terrific as well they made a real noise throughout this game and those traveling fans probably deserve that moment as well.

6:06They certainly do. We must say congratulations to Bosnia and Herzegovina. The Wales captain, Ethan Ampadu, just talking to BBC Wales TV just beneath us, doing his commitments, his post-match commitments, because whatever happens, you've always got to face the media, quite literally, and Ethan Ampadu is talking right now. And it's interesting, Ali, I know we were talking beforehand what would happen on Tuesday should Wales lose and Northern Ireland lose. and commiserations to Northern Ireland not quite making it as well, going down 2-0 against Italy. But Wales and Northern Ireland meet here on Tuesday night for, I suppose, to quote, a friendly match now.

6:43I mean, the atmosphere here on Tuesday. Yeah, I mean, when you buy those tickets before the game, you're hoping, obviously, they're going to be for a playoff final to get to the World Cup. Now they're anything but. And I suppose you could say, right, The next campaign is the Nations League in September and Wales are back up in the top division of that. I mean, the guys, I'll tell you, crikey. I mean, Craig Bellamy trying to lift those. And, you know, Michael O 'Neill, the same with the Northern Ireland players, for a game like that, I don't know how you do that. And in terms of Wales then, Tom, where does Craig Bellamy go from here?

7:19Because this is what the focus has been for his 20 months in charge. Yeah, I think today will probably be the biggest learning curve in those 20 months. I think Bosnia played in a way that I don't think many other international teams will play. There's almost a stigma about going direct nowadays, especially in international football, yet me and Dave see it week in, week out in League Two, and it can be effective like we've seen tonight, but you won't see a lot of that on the international stage, that's for sure, but Wales didn't know how to deal with it. It hit them, and it just kept working, it kept working, and Bosnia kept doing it and they kept getting chances from it.

8:02So fair play to Bosnia. It's a learning curve for Wales. Can't be that easy to go direct and allow the ball to bounce time after time after time. So, yeah, I think a learning curve tonight. There'll be a lot of video analysis done on it and where to improve and how to come back stronger. And we can hear from Dan James. Yeah, definitely tough to take. You know, I thought we played really well. For them to get a late goal was obviously gutting and I thought we played incredible in extra time. I thought we were absolutely brilliant and I'm just good for the boys because we've worked so hard but I think what we showed today was unbelievable and how far we've come and we've got so much more to show and we'll be back but I just say thank you to all the fans who've been absolutely incredible and we'll be back.

8:55It's a difficult evening. I mean, you scored a fantastic goal, which I'm sure means nothing to you after that result. But to lose on penalties as well, it's something that's happened to you as a squad before. And obviously you've got that experience as well. What were you able to say to the lads who weren't able to score their penalties tonight? Because you've been there, haven't you? Yeah, it's a really tough moment. You know, straight away you feel like you let your country down. But we wouldn't be here today without them boys. I thought a massive credit to them for stepping up, taking a pen.

9:28And from personal experience, you always come back stronger from it. And, you know, we're all behind them. You know, we always speak about together stronger, but we are. None of us, you know, everyone would have wanted to take a pen tonight. And it was, you know, it was them five. And it's such a difficult moment. As I said, I've been through it before to, you know, to not make the Euros. And it is difficult. you feel like the weight's all on you but that's what it is it wasn't meant to be tonight but them boys will definitely be stronger for it and credit to them for taking one There's plenty to look forward to the next major tournament's going to be here in Wales is that something that you can even think about at the moment?

10:12Yeah, I think obviously to lose tonight is absolutely good we've got another game on Tuesday which we'll dust ourselves and we've got to be ready for it because there's such important games coming. As you said, the Euros, the Euro qualifiers and also the Nations League. We ended up qualifying for Group A. We worked so hard to be there and we want to be amongst the top teams and we show tonight the level that we can play. So no World Cup for Wales, no World Cup for Northern Ireland, no World Cup for Republic of Ireland. England we know already there, Scotland too. So at least we do have home nations involvement.

10:47and many of the spectators have now exited the stadium. Some are still making their way down from the back of the Canton stand to the exits as well. They'll be going home thinking what may have been. And I suppose, Dave, that's the hardest thing now. A lot of the players will be thinking that. Hold that thought because we can hear from Ethan Ampadu. Ethan, not sure how much you can say about that, but how do you feel? I mean, obviously, disappointment is the only real word. We lost the words. We prepared as well as we could have for this game. I thought we played really well. I mean, any day doesn't really matter because we're not going there in the summer, which is the disappointing thing.

11:30But I think, as weird as it is to say, we can all hold our heads up high because we fought for everything. It's just sometimes it's not even down to luck because we prepared well. just sometimes in life it doesn't really go your way. We're all professionals and we're all going to, I think me and the standards that we have in this team, we're always going to look back on what we could have better and maybe we could have managed the game better the last 10 minutes before they scored in the 90 minutes to make sure that we stayed on their front foot and the attacking foot because that's how we want to play football.

12:03And sometimes in the games of football when they put more numbers forward, you obviously naturally do get pinned back a little bit, but I'm sure that's something that we can look at in the future for now. It's just a lot of disappointment. You all came together in the centre circle there and we couldn't see from here who was speaking but who was speaking and what were they saying? No, the manager, obviously. Everyone was in there together to console each other. I think that huddle there, I mean, it might seem something so small but I think that's one thing that makes us so strong and we're always going to be together.

12:32I think the Nations League now is next for us. Maybe some friendlies in the summer but we have to go again. in and then go on to Nations League. Thanks a lot for your time and well played tonight. Thank you. Thanks a lot. The Wales captain, Ethan Ampdood, speaking to the BBC's Carl Robert. Credit to him. It's an interview no one ever wants to do. Dave, what did you make of what he had to say there? I think he said everything that a captain needs to say. They have no choice but to move on. Football calendar will move on. They won't be at the World Cup. They have a Nations League campaign coming up.

13:03They have friendlies coming up. They have to deal with the game on Tuesday night, which I'm sure that's the last thing they'll want to do. I'm sure they just want to go back to their clubs, go back to their families, but it's going to be a tough weekend for them to try and get over this. But I spoke before the game about the transition they're in at the moment, and Craig Bellamy has got this team much further along that road than what they probably should be. So whilst there is disappointment in this, I do think that you can see by 60 minutes today they're absolutely brilliant. So they have evolved tremendously well over a short period of time, but like Tom said, there's going to be moments in games where it goes against you.

13:39Maybe that's the bit now that Craig Bellamy needs to look at. How do they stop that when Bosnia are pushing all those bodies forward, they're loads in the box. At what moment in there can you stop that momentum from the opposition and try and get your way back into the game? Because they really struggled at the back end of that second half. Away from that, the performance was excellent, had chances to go 2-0 up. But once they started making the changes, Bosnia, and they started lumping the ball forward, and he started pressing higher on the pitch. Wales, unfortunately, just didn't have the answers.

14:08Let's hear from the Wales manager, Craig Bellamy. Definitely proud, but very disappointed. You know, I don't like, you know, it's not the hard luck Wales one. We expect to be at major tournaments or we really push ourselves to be there. There was a lot good tonight. That really gives a good opportunity of being here. But, yeah, it wasn't to be. it wasn't to be but you said you wanted them to give everything you didn't fear losing because you were going to go for it did you get what you wanted from your team tonight yeah definitely it was the last 20 odd minutes was the only time we stopped playing we can't stop playing we just can't why do you think that was it's understandable we're leading they're throwing more men on more forwards come on that we weren't triggering weren't pressing but when we had the ball we didn't have the energy to press because the simple fact we didn't keep the ball long enough now it's a big lesson for us as well we want to see games out you've got to see it out with the ball we're not built that type of team to be able to defend deep and see things out especially with the size they have the more the bigger presence they had in the box was always going to be a big problem so we need to keep them away from the box and we regained it then extra time, regained momentum.

15:31But yeah, considering the chances we created and the moments we had, it maybe would have been like to have been out of sight by that time as well. Yeah, there's another game to come on Tuesday, but I know that you're looking at this long term. Is there plenty to be hopeful if you're a Wales football fan, a Wales men's team football fan? Yeah, yeah, you've got Group A coming up. You've got a home nation, Euros. What an incredible time. Listen, we want to keep that, of course. We want to be in a World Cup this summer. It's not going to be. But the future is very bright for this. And for this team as well.

16:13It's a reasonably young team. Some exceptional young players coming through. So, yeah, some good years ahead for Wales. Which there has been now, and I'm just a little bit disappointed. definitely for the players, not for myself, that we weren't able to just back-to-back World Cups because, you know, we're a good team. On the Football Daily Podcast, The Debrief. Listen on BBC Sound. Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Jewel Osco. It's stock up savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for storewide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in-store tags to earn on eligible items from Hunts, Nerds, Pillsbury, Lowry's, Breyers, Quaker, and Culture Pop.

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17:52My name's Steve Bradnell, assistant manager at Royal Oak FC. You may have seen me online going viral. Viral sensation. And now the BBC have given me the chance to set the footballing world bang to rise. This could be a great opportunity for us lads, a podcast for the BBC. Can I just say, what's a podcast? Brilliant. Great start. Well done, Bob. Brilliant. We can completely show utter transparency to Royal Oak fans. I'll use my charm. Gift it, Gab. Game's gone. The Steve Bracknell podcast. Watch on YouTube. Listen on BBC Sounds. On the Football Daily Podcast. The Debrief. Listen on BBC Sounds. It just goes to show, Tom, doesn't it, that ultimately the amount of chances that Wales did have in those 90 minutes.

18:44Had they put more of them away, we could have been having a different discussion. It just goes to show how slim margins are in football. Yeah, and you cast your mind back to that Daniel James chance that crashed against the crossbar after he got slid through by Harry Wilson and the deflection took it up onto the bar. And if that one goes in at 2-0, you'd like to think the game's done. And you have to give credit to Bosnia. After Wales took the lead, they did respond very well. They went very high in the press, which caused Wales different sort of problems. They were very good at it in the second half as well.

19:17So, yeah, it's a disappointing night, but like Dave said, you've got to move on. There's no other way in football and we are going to be better off for it, that's for sure. Would we have liked to have won this? Absolutely. But it's part and parcel of the game. There's going to be bumps along the road. And I have to say over this qualifying campaign, the way we have gone about playing our football and conducted ourselves through all these games, it does really, really make me proud to be Welsh. I think the transformation between, you know, we were probably in similar positions two years ago, but, you know, we were hanging on in games and hoping Gareth Bale would score a Woldie for us.

19:53And the way we've been able to do it as a team, this campaign just shows how far we've come. And like I said, it makes me really proud to be Welsh. So, yes, this is a horrible night for us, but I'm sure there's going to be a lot more positive in the future, and that's for sure. Indeed, there are a host of seagulls who've made an appearance swarming around the Cardiff City Stadium. They've missed the show. They've missed the entire extra time and penalties, but maybe that's what they wanted, the calmness. Just to run through the playoff final line-up that we've now got following the semifinals this evening, so we know Bosnian Hetzalcoatl will be home against Italy next Tuesday.

20:29The Czech Republic, who beat the Republic of Ireland on penalties, will host Denmark, who won 4-0 this evening. Kosovo against Turkey and Sweden against Poland make up the line-up. So commiserations to Wales, Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland as well. Let's get some reaction from Northern Ireland because they went out after losing 2-0 in Italy. Northern Ireland head coach Michael O 'Neill has been given his reaction after that game in Italy. He's been speaking to Gavin Andrews. I'm very proud of the performance, first of all. the players gave everything I thought first half we were terrific in terms of our shape and our structure made it difficult for Italy we had to defend corners but we defended them extremely well felt at times we could have been a little bit better on the ball I thought we had opportunities where maybe we just over hit the pass or maybe made the wrong option at times I think we were strong clean for a penalty with the handball as well and second half you know we gave them a couple of moments that we created ourself the goal's poor from our point of view we end up you know a little bit terry's out of shape and then isaac's not we're in the position we really want them to be in and then you know the ball's headed down in a poor area and the one person you don't want landing on the ball at that point in time is tonali and it's uh you know it's a strong hit and uh but again you know i felt that there was always something for us in the game the second goal obviously takes it away from me a little bit but we had a couple of chances towards the end to try and make it a little bit tense.

22:01But look, it was a very young team tonight. I think the average age of the team is maybe just 22 years of age. They gave everything and that's all we can ask. I'm very proud of them. And I think, you know, we showed that we've made, you know, huge strides as a team as well. Northern Ireland's head coach Michael O 'Neill there. Paul Gilmore watched the game out in Italy in Bergamo for us. An interesting point that he does make there because no doubt that they can take that from the game. But obviously the immediate feeling will, of course, be one of heartbreak, Paul. Of course, Deleth, a complete disappointment for this Northern Ireland team almost 40 years on from when they last dined at football's top table.

22:47Elements of their performance in Bergamo allowed the 1 ,300 vocal travelling supporters to dream of past glories. for 55 minutes the plucky underdogs were right in this game against the four time world champions many of the 25 ,000 inside Atalanta Stadium began to wonder if history might repeat itself for Italy, Sweden and North Macedonia have caused Italy problems in past playoffs but in truth North Island for all their endeavour and their comfort on this stage struggled to make a meaningful impact in the final third instead it was left to the classy Sandro Tonali to show the difference his fierce first time strike from 20 yards broke the resistance and then Moyes Keane fired in off the post when that happened that was that Italy responded well to the pressure and ultimately got the job done for Northern Ireland well attention now turns to Michael O 'Neill's future and the ongoing links and what happens with this Blackburn Rovers job and something needs to give and may yet give one thing he does have here with Northern Ireland though is a young squad that will only get better Will there be much fallout, do you think, surrounding that?

23:53There was a lot of talk when he took the role in February that obviously he could do both roles and that by taking the Blackburn job until the end of the season it would make his focus sharper ahead of the Northern Ireland camp. Is that likely to be a bit of a narrative, though, following the defeat in Italy, that perhaps Michael O 'Neill shouldn't have taken the Blackburn job? I don't think it'll be a narrative. I think if you speak to most Northern Ireland supporters, they will say if there's one manager they want in charge for a game like this it will be Michael O 'Neill and in some ways that was proven tonight the way they stayed in the game for so long the way they began to frustrate Italy and crucially for them that moment when Sandro Tonelli scored I watched Terry Devlin who was excellent on the night he played a back pass about 3-4 minutes before the Tonelli goal and it clipped his own player and took the sting off it and Italy had a real chance to score from it.

24:47They didn't score, but Northern Ireland struggled to regain their composure for that next three, four, five minutes, and that is when Tonali hit them. So it's these fine margins, but for the large part, we talk about having a sense of pride in the team. Michael O 'Neill has alluded to that already. That's what people will focus on. People will see that that was nothing to do with Blackburn Rovers, and of course everyone will be desperate. Michael O 'Neill will stay on as Northern Ireland boss. whether he can continue both jobs into next season, that feels like it would be incredibly unlikely. But crucially, his contract runs to the end of Euro 2028.

25:21So I guess it's a case of watch this space. Paul, great job this evening. Safe trip back from Italy. Paul Gilmore, they're out in Bergamo for us, who'll be returning with the Northern Ireland players, I'm sure, tomorrow as well. Disappointment for them. Michael O 'Neill, of course, like Craig Bellamy, contracted currently with their nations until 2028 or the European qualifying campaign for 2028. The pack-up job is already starting well underway here at Cardiff City Stadium. Everyone's packing things away. The pitch is getting mowed as well in the distance here. Just a word actually on that playoff final between Bosnia and Italy, Dave.

26:05We touched beforehand before kickoff that Italy, of course, are on the cusp potentially of missing a third World Cup, but they won't find going to Bosnia easy on Tuesday and the pressure arguably probably will more be on Italy. Absolutely, and I think they'll be happy that this went to extra time. You look at the legs of the Bosnian players at the end, they were flat out on the floor. So many of the players got cramp during it, so that they'll be hard for those Bosnians to recover. They've got to fly back to their home nation as well. But Italy should have enough to beat them, you'd think. But Bosnia is a tough place to go.

26:40I've been there for Wales in that Euro 2016 qualifying campaign. We lost there on that evening. Very difficult environment to play in. Very hostile atmosphere. And the Italians will find it difficult. You just feel the way the two games have gone tonight. They have to go into that as favourites. What's quite interesting, Deleth, about that playoff final draw line-up is that all the lower-ranked teams are at home, which makes that really interesting. So Bosnia and Herzegovina at home to Italy, Kosovo with their away win tonight at home to Turkey, Sweden at home to Poland, and Czechia at home to Denmark.

27:13And actually, it's reward for Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo and Sweden, who all won away tonight, actually get the reward of them playing the final at home. But I completely agree with Dave. I think the enormous pressure, you know, on those Italian players, is just the expectation of them as a football nation. They wouldn't have enjoyed coming here. They're not going to enjoy going there. I'm going to watch that one with fascination. Absolutely. I mean, Ali's right there, Tom, isn't it? The fact that Italy could potentially not make it for another World Cup full-time winners and the history that Italy and Italian football has.

27:49Yeah, absolutely. And look, it's not going to be an easy job going over to Bosnia. You look at what did they bring today? 3 ,000, was it? They were so loud. they were bouncing around, there was flares going off and let's have it right, there's going to be a lot more of that when Italy come to town on Tuesday night. So yeah, it's going to be a good game, but if, you know, World Cups aren't just giving away, they're earned, so you're going to have to go there, show what you're about and hopefully try and get the job done. Yeah, and I think there was a fair decent of ultras there. I think some of the ultras dressed all in black are still there.