The Football Mind

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0:30School ready at Whole Foods Market. How many streaming subscriptions do you have? Is it the same for your business? Avoid it by having all your business on one platform. Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. This is the Football Daily Podcast with Steve Crossman.

0:54Welcome to the Football Daily Podcast. and welcome to a park in the centre of Brentford, mostly like any other park. Right now I'm standing in front of one of those sort of pens, it's blue and red metal. There's a big football goal net built into it at either end, and two basketball hoops covered in graffiti, no nets. Everything here has that feeling of it was built quite a long time ago. We've got the planes taking off from Heathrow above us, Just walking around to a yellow painted gate here, which gets you into the park itself. Faded, paint chipping away. But in front of me, about 50 metres away, is the shiniest, glossiest, black painted bench.

1:44It's new. And it's Michael's bench. Michael Caulfield. Michael is the sports psychologist at Brentford. and he has, although he wouldn't use the word himself, revolutionised the way that sports psychologists talk to elite athletes in these environments. And we're here to meet him because he brought a bench to Brentford when he arrived at the club. It's a place where players can sit and talk or just sit. In fact, that is the inscription that sits on it. And now Michael's benches are spreading. and here today they're installing one in this park for the first time they'll be one of Michael Caulfield's benches outside of the Brentford training ground and in the coming weeks and months they will multiply there'll be more and more in the local area maybe it'll catch on maybe it's something that we'll start to see at football clubs up and down the land at other sports clubs up and down the land as well Michael's here he's sitting on the bench and with him is Fabio Carvalho the Brentford player who when he was 18, 19 moved from London to Liverpool and now he's back here and he's here because he has a great relationship with Michael and they both want to talk about the importance of talking so let's meet them

3:10It's a lovely day, we're in a lovely setting and we're next to this brilliant bench and I think Michael before we do anything else we just need an explainer of why we're here not just with this bench but why benches have become such an important part of your work I worked out many moons ago but particularly in football that if you're in a meeting room in football a player, a member of staff and someone walks past everyone always says what's fabio doing with Michael in there if you sit in a park bench by the side of the pitch by the side of the building no one ever asks that question and I think football has got unbelievably professional, correctly so.

3:51And I worked out when we moved to our new training building named after Robert Rowan that there was nowhere to just sit and talk. So I went online and I bought a very nice teak bench and varnished it myself and it's become my office and it's been, for me, it opened up a completely new way of working with young men like Fabio. Because I wouldn't get to know him inside but I've got to know him outside. I feel like for a player as well. It's like I think it just puts you at ease when you're just talking to someone outside You don't really have to go into four walls. You feel like a prisoner in some some way shape or form I think just being outside in the fresh air.

4:29It's just just more natural to More personal I think so as well I think you're just able to just speak without feeling judged and Obviously Michael just makes you feel welcome and just Well for me personally when I first joined just being able to just sit down and have a word with him about anything and everything like it doesn't just have to be about football and that's the most special thing about it because it's like I can just go to him just talk about anything. Did you know about Michael and Michael's bench before you walked through the door then? No I didn't I met him and he just left an impression on me like he does to everyone else such a character and just easy easy to just speak to and I think the first time we sat on the bench was just I think after training we just sat and just spoke about life and everything that I was going through and then ask questions to him as well because I feel like he always helps everyone else but it's like it's always good to just ask if someone's good and how today's going and to ask him as well I think it's important.

5:27Do you think safety is a key aspect? Is safety part of the reason why it works Michael? I think if there's one word I would take from what's happened the last few years is that it is safer and actually I was speaking to a player this morning, a young player, finding his way in the game. And I asked him at the end of last season, it was a B team. I had two years with the B team as well. And they asked for a bench. Right. They asked for a bench when I joined the B team. So I bought them a bench as well. And at the end of last season, I said to the young men, and they are very young men, they're 18, 19.

6:02And I said to them independently, one-on-one. I said, why did this work? because I'm 40 years older than Fabio and 44 years older than the B team players. And I said, why did this work? And they all said exactly the same thing. They said it was safe. And if there's nothing else I've done, it's to give players a safe space in a very controlled sport and a very scrutinized sport. If I've given them somewhere safe to go, I hope, it's my favourite phrase, I've done my bit. And I hope I've done my bit. What about that atmosphere, Fabio, makes you feel safe in that environment? Because that is the key thing about having an open conversation, isn't it?

6:48Yeah, you want to just be able to speak what's on your mind. I feel like with footwork can be a bit cutthroat, especially if you're not playing or you're injured. I've just seen, when I used to go out to training last year, some of the players that had long-term injuries and they just used to sit with Michael, just being able to just talk about what you're going through on and off the pitch, I think it's a blessing. Because in this day and age, it's just easy to just go on social media and get trapped. But it's like being able to express your feelings. I don't feel like men in general do that enough.

7:16And it's just good to have someone that can kind of like share the burdens that you're holding. Just being able to just talk and get things off your chest, it goes a long way. Can you remember then the first time you came out of a conversation with Michael feeling, I guess, lighter is what you're looking to feel, is it? Yeah, I think I was going through a time when I wasn't playing last year, where I wasn't really getting a chance, and I just spoke to him and he just said, look, get your head down, keep working. And I spoke to him about my faith as well, which is big to me. And it's just something I like talking to people about, just seeing their perspective on what they believe in and sharing them what I believe in and just being able to speak to him.

7:56And obviously he told me to just use my faith to keep me going, and that's what I've been doing today and every other day as well. and it's just something that keeps me going every day and it's just a blessing. That idea of faith I think is really interesting, Michael, because that is so personal to everybody who has faith, isn't it? So from the perspective of you doing your role, that must be quite, well, it's obviously an important thing, but also quite a difficult thing to get right because of how individual it is. Well, if I can admit something to Fabio, I was very nervous when I first met Fabio because I didn't know him.

8:33And you have to time your first conversation correctly because if you're not in the team or you're injured and you're struggling and with a big move as well from a different part of the country, so you have to get that first conversation right and only then can it lead you into a very personal area like faith. And I was brought up in a very strong religious household so we connected over that and we started asking questions about that, listening to each other about that. but I was trusting again Steve that conversation could never have taken place inside, it just wouldn't have happened in a building, it wouldn't have happened in the coffee area Fabio, it wouldn't have happened over the luncheon table where I don't sit with the players anyway because that's their space it certainly wouldn't have happened in the dressing room because I'd never have been in there the only place it could have happened was on a nice sunny morning just like today with planes going overhead no one interrupting us and away we went and that's why I think the simplicity of it works because it's safe and there's no rush and no one's got a phone, no one's timing you you can have two minutes, you can have 22 minutes and I think that's why it works and that's why I've got to know Fabio we wouldn't have this relationship without sitting outside on the bench When you arrived then, did you does Michael almost sort of get referred to you in the sense that people explain what he is and why he's here or did he sort of come to you and say hello I'm Michael?

10:01Yeah he just came to me I don't feel like the club kind of put pressure on anyone to go and speak to anyone I think it's got to also become like come from your will because if they're just kind of oh yeah go speak to Michael kind of thing it's just a bit forceful it's not natural at all and me personally I know myself I wouldn't be like I'd be a bit reluctant to go and speak to him if he was kind of forced upon and he just came and introduced himself and I looked at his nice suit and I thought this guy's got something on about him so we just spoke and yeah nah honestly he's just a good friend of mine and yeah it's just someone I can count on and talk to Steve this is now a new experience for me because I didn't know he thought that and then he said wearing his nice suit but I don't thank you but I don't wear track suits I don't think middle aged men look great in track suits on a good day so I just wear my normal clothes and they joke I look like a maths teacher or a history teacher.

10:58But again, it gives it that bit of further safety because then if I have my initials and the club crest on, I think that's a tiny barrier. And having been in football for a number of years now, I'm just trying to just bring down a few of those barriers because in the main, these are very young men. Fabio's a very young man who's gone through an extraordinary amount in his life already. And sometimes there are barriers put up in sport because you have to have this absolute perfect bulletproof image the whole time. And real life in sport, and particularly football, is not like that. And all I've tried to do, and I've been allowed to do it at Brentford, which has been the biggest thrill of all, as Fabio said there, I wasn't forced upon Fabio.

11:42In fact, I waited for a few weeks. And then when I felt I could say good morning and sit on the bench, we did. But you have to reduce those barriers. And being outside, I know I repeat this a hundred times, to the point of you won't release this podcast, being outside is the most important aspect of that. Why? Because there's no windows, there's no screens, there's no television, there's no printout, there's no measurement, there's no judgement, there's nothing other than you, a piece of wood and sometimes a cup of coffee. And at Brentford, several aeroplanes every three seconds and wind. But apart from that, it is as natural as you could get anything in the world, which is two people.

12:25And the other thing is you're facing the same direction. If you're on a table, you've got another barrier. And I've learned through my work and through people who've fostered children and things that the best conversations happen when you're walking along side by side. And often I go for a walk with the players too. If my dog is in Paisley, I might just go for a walk. And again, it takes you anywhere you want. as long as you show the players, I think the respect I certainly give them, and also the crucial word is time. And I think being outside creates time, because there's no bell going off to say, it's 10.15, you've got another meeting.

13:01True or false, lots of the players have ended up getting dogs because they've fallen in love with Michael's dog, Paisley. I'll let him answer that. I've got my dog. I didn't even know that Michael had a dog before I got my dog, so I can't say that that was my reason. It's true. No, it is true. And it's become a point of conversation and players come down to see me away from the ground and we go for a walk again. And I've learnt through my previous work in sport and through some other activities in life that if you're a bit stressed and finding life hard, when you put your hand on a silky dog's ear, and mine has got silky ears, everything just, again, just relaxes that bit more.

13:45So I'm not doing this deliberately, Steve. None of this was deliberate. Getting the bench wasn't a conscious idea. There was nowhere to sit. I wasn't going to get Paisley after Shankly. I'm not even a Liverpool fan, sat next to the next Liverpool player. But when Shankly died, Paisley came along by mistake. So he's become part of it. And I'm just trying to make football as natural as possible in what is at times a really unnatural environment because it's competitive, it's cutthroat, and it's pressurised too. So anything I can do to remove that, whilst we have some fun out there as well, because we don't tell the club this, but we talk about football sometimes.

14:24But the more you sometimes talk away from football, it helps football.

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15:39This is the Football Daily Podcast with Steve Crossman Rhyme, how old you were when you went to Liverpool? 19, no, 20. OK. 20, yeah. So 20, you moved from London up to Liverpool, having been 11 when you left where you're from, which is just outside Lisbon, to come to England. That's a lot to deal with. I just wonder if other football environments you've been in, whether or not something like this you think would have really helped you when you were even younger than you are now. I feel like recently I'm seeing, even speaking to some of my friends who play football and talking to them about any help that they may get within football, I feel like that's coming up a bit more.

16:25It's becoming more, people become more aware that there's a lot of pressure in football and people need to get stuff off their chest. And, yeah, mental health is important. So I can kind of see that on a day-to-day basis. I think growing up, not really. But, yeah, I feel like what Michael said, being able to speak to someone that doesn't really wear the kit or hasn't got a badge and initials on the name, I think it goes a long way because young men, they're kind of scared to share their emotions, share what they're feeling, because they're scared that it might get reported back to a coach and someone might perceive them in a different way because of what they've said, but that shouldn't be a thing.

17:02And just being able to speak to someone openly, it goes a long way. And sometimes not talking about football, it helps football, like what Michael just said. Being able to just get rid of them burdens that are weighing you down. You can just go out on the pitch and perform freely. Have you ever had anything like this anywhere else then? I wouldn't say any of that. I feel like you can always speak to staff, members of staff and that, but no one like Michael that's approachable and just someone that you can count on to talk to about anything. I can't stress that enough. I'm really conscious as well that I've no idea what you've been through in your life and I don't want to pry into that.

17:37Obviously, at the same time, people's personal stories can be really powerful. So whatever areas you're comfortable talking about, which kind of involve the conversations you've had with Michael, I think people would be really interested to hear. But equally, anything you want to keep back, keep it back because we're not here to... Do you see what I mean? I'll probably say one of the conversations that we had recently, it was mainly about faith. And I just told them the reason why I came into faith. I felt like it was a dark period in my life where obviously no one would see it except for myself and people around me.

18:09And I was going down the wrong paths, going to places where I shouldn't go, doing things that I shouldn't be doing. Sinning, basically, not living the right way I should be living. and then that's when I found Christ and yeah just being able to read the Bible which has brought me in a peace that it's unexplainable like I cannot stress enough that I see things differently for what they are now I don't see money for what money is I don't see pleasure for what pleasure is I see that there's a purpose and there's a purpose for me to be here which is to spread the gospel to spread Christ spread his mission and to try and get people to to come to come back to Christ and repent from their sins and like just being able to talk to him about my journey and coming to faith and just changing my whole whole life around I think it touched him as all I don't know if he's going to share that but it touched him as all because obviously we're different ages and maybe seeing someone younger he's obviously got a lot more experience and a lot more knowledge on things but seeing someone's journey I think it kind of touches him as all if I'm right in saying that but yeah just being able to just speak to him about faith and being able to speak to him about things outside of football that's a blessing it was a pre-season it was a gorgeous sunny day and Fabio was walking in from training I think it was and I was in my office the bench and Fabio came over and we started talking as we did it was after the pre-season camp and because of the the ease in which I hope I have now with many of the players and staff we started talking about his journey again and his faith and it became a very it's a conversation I promise you now Steve I could literally remember word for word I don't often pry into players' lives ever but I texted you that evening if you recall and you kindly replied as well I was on my sofa at home at half eight I thought I've just got to text Fabio to say I think I just said Fabio thank you for today's conversation I don't think I've ever had a deeper conversation with a footballer in 20 years, and I hadn't, and I still haven't.

20:20And that's when another layer of trust was built between us, which I think then literally transfers back onto the purpose of his career, which is football. Because when he's fit and able and selected, I know every player wants to play in every game. when you got that last minute equalised against Chelsea that I'm celebrating the stands for a different reason because I know what he's been through to get back to this point after injury and rejection and, as he said himself, the choices he made in life. And to see a young man then thrive like that. No, I just agree with what you're saying. I don't feel like, even in a change room, and I've spoken to a few boys about it, I don't feel like we have enough meaningful conversations, like deep conversations because I feel like it's just oh hi how are you yeah we're okay I'm good but it's like are we actually good are you actually good like what's going on is anything bothering you I don't feel like people talk about deeper things or how they actually feel enough especially in football obviously you've got your family who you trust and I feel like as a as a team teammates as well and we talk about connections in in Brentford to being able to talk and talk about the deeper things in life I think it goes a long way I'm really interested to ask you Fabio about something Michael said before about measurement, that word measurement.

21:38And I wonder if that is one of the aspects of the conversations you have that will be really powerful and helpful and to help you feel lighter in that everything you do as a footballer is measured. It doesn't matter if it's your card on FIFA that people look at or it's your sprint speed over five metres, everything all the way up to the obvious ones like goals and assists. Is it helpful to have a rare thing in your life where nobody puts a number next to it? A hundred percent. I feel like whatever you do, you're always going to be judged, whether you're doing well, whether you're not doing well.

22:10I feel like it just depends on what kind of person you are, whether you like people judging you, whether you don't really like. I feel like it kind of depends on what you are, but just being able to speak to someone where you're not feeling judged or whatever you say, they're going to listen and try to understand the best they can. I think it's the best way because in football, there's a lot of things. If you don't score a goal, if you miss a chance, people are going to say stuff online. and people are always going to be on your back. But being able to just have them conversations where no one's going to put a number on your performance or a number on what you say, or I feel like sometimes people get too fixated on what other people's opinions are of them.

22:44But I feel like ultimately it's what the closest people around you, the people that see you every day, the people that know you, their opinions are, the opinions that matter. How many of the conversations that you have at the moment, Michael, will revolve around issues like social media abuse? because that seems to be a big one that's talked about a lot more now. I think it would always be in the top three these days because our lives are dominated by it, whether you're my age or whether you're Fabio's age. We live in a digital world. I grew up in a non-digital world and now I live, like everyone else, completely in the digital world.

23:19And that is draining, it's tiring, it's judgmental. We've got no idea. Remember the days when almost smoking was accepted indoors? I think at some point we'll all go, remember the 2000s and 2020, we were addicted to X, Y and Z, which we virtually are. So that does get a huge amount of comment by the players. But they too, as we all do, have to project a certain image to a degree. And that's why, again, I enjoy going outside with a cup of coffee. And we sit down and we're not being judged. Even if it's just for five minutes. And you're not being measured and you're not being put in some order. And I know from my work in football, and that's why I always like the chance to speak to you about this, Steve, is to try and spread that word that it's not always about the things you can measure.

24:13It's about the things you can't measure. Because otherwise it becomes a very, very judgmental world. And there's enough of that going on as it is. And I'm not trying to give a way out of that. I'm not trying to duck it or avoid it, because especially at Brentford, where systems and information are as good as any club in Europe, which we're very proud of, but there still has to be space for players to breathe and be themselves everywhere. You just need that, or else they'll be affected. They'll be suffocated. Thanks, Fabio. We work well, don't we? Can the modern football world feel suffocating, then?

24:53It depends, I think. I think for me now, not as much, not on the social media side, because I'm not really on social media. I don't go on Instagram, I don't go on Snapchat. Because a lot of the hate came from people behind their screens, behind their phones. And it's like, coming to faith, I've realised that only Christ can judge me. So for me, from a personal perspective, I don't care what people say, I don't care what they think. Because the majority of the time, these are people that have never played football. These are people that are just stuck behind their phones, having an opinion because they know that they can't really get back to what they say, especially if they're being rude or racist or whatever may be.

25:28They know that it can't really get traced back to them, so they can just say whatever they want. And I feel like some people get affected from it more than others, but for me personally, I don't really care. Michael, my experience of you, just before we wrap up, is that you're an amazing talker, but you don't really like talking about yourself, but I'm going to push you if you don't mind. Fabio's laughing at this point, which is a bit of a worry. So your first bench, Michael's bench, what is the name of the bench that you brought in for the B team? I was asked to support the B team for two seasons, which was a great thrill.

26:05And the first thing they asked me on the day one of pre-season was, Mike, can we have a bench? Yeah. So I thought, well, there's another few hundred quid down the drain. I would never, this comes out of my pocket. It's something I want to do. And I'm not trying to make myself be a hero here. It's just, that's what I wanted to do. So I said, yep, I'll go online. But I said, you've got to have a plaque for the bench. Because the first bench, I just thought in two seconds, I need a name for it. Michael's Bench, just sit and talk or just sit. So I said to the B team players, yes, you can. But by half past two, I need a title for the plaque.

26:40I could have gone to Saatchi and Saatchi, chat GPT. I'm sure other sites are available. And they came back at 2.30 and said, Mike, we've got a name for the bench. I said, go on then. Michael's other bench pure genius and it's used every day as well it's used every day so there's now four at the training ground, two in the academy one for the first team and one for the B team and the reason that we're here in this park is because they're now going all the way around the community, let me just look at the inscription behind you there Fabio, it says a Brentford FC bench, talking is the best tactic, if you need support there is help available 24-7 there's a number for MIND and for the Samaritans and for West London Mental Health, single point of access.

27:21There's a QR code as well to get the information. How does it, and I know it's not about you, and I know you would never make it about you, but seeing what has come from that first idea that you came up with, that is special, isn't it? Yes, it is, end of. It just is because since the Chelsea game when my bench was taken pitch side and the players messaged me after the game, I was quite pleased that Febby got the 94th minute equalised as well by the way and when the players said it was so good to see you and the bench pitch side tonight because I don't go near the players on match day and then to get emails and messages and letters since from supporters, families going I started talking to my son again and he started talking to me and we started going for walks again because we saw you sitting pitch side and we thought well if that old fool can do it we can do it so to see this initiative with I think up to 10 benches in the community and I will say also about football because I think Fabio's a Benfica fan growing up the first game I ever saw was in 1968 Benfica getting beaten 4-1 by Man United so the link comes around there football is still the greatest most powerful, most wonderful tool in the world for bringing people together in the right way.

28:43It gets a bit silly now and again. We can all lose our temper over it. I think it's been found out to be recently the most popular pastime in the history of the world. And it does such a force for good if it's used in the right way. If it's used in the wrong way, it's horrible. But when it's used in the right way, football can bring people, families, communities together like nothing else, literally nothing else on earth. And I've read a story again in football where it was the former TV presenter, John Stapleton, who died recently. An article was published by him and his son, and they had moments when they didn't get on, and their family was brought back together again by going to football.

29:26Because you can sit, face the same direction, moan at the referee, moan at VAR, which I do a lot, and it just brings your family back together. So put the football, the bench, the people, and the power of conversation together, and I still think it's the most powerful tool in the world. I really do. Fabio, I can't think of any better question to finish with than this. OK, let's say that Michael's benches spread far and wide and that there are other football clubs who will listen to interviews like this and think, do you know what, that's a great idea. If there's a top footballer out there listening to this who would think, I've never heard anything like that, is it for me?