The Reign of Spain

25:35And Laureano Ruiz was the first person in Barca system before Johan Cruyff who started the process with Rondos, for example. Okay? Yes. but Johan Cruyff, for me, did a thing very difficult when we talk about Catalan mentality in our club. It was very difficult to think that we can win many things. So at that time when we won just one La Liga every eight or nine or ten years, this was our usual life. But he came and he changed all the methodology. I remember Johan Cruyff was very focused in the youth system. He was many times in academia. I remember one of his first decisions was at that moment, Pep Guardiola was juvenil, last year juvenil.

26:32And he was very weak physically. He was thin and weak. and inside club, many people wanted him to long or even to finish contract. But Johan Cruyff said, no, we do extra work in the gym, specific training sessions, all this process because he saw it was a talented player. And for me, this was the big change because he created new things, a new methodology, but the most important is that he was winner because if you create something new and you don't win in football, just, okay, you try but you didn't win and this is a factor in football that is very important. And a thing that said Rafa that I think is very important, Johan Cruyff played 1-3-4-3, okay?

27:29And if you ask him why only three defenders and his answer, and I want to show how his common sense or logical works. He says, we only play three because at that moment, most of the teams play one 4-4-2 and only two forwards, and I just want one more defender. So it means that I can put one more defensive midfielder and this role that Rafa said was very important in Barca because Luis Milla, Pep Guardiola, Sergio Busquets, but Arteta, Cesc Fabricas sometimes played there. Xavi sometimes played there. Only Xavi woke up when Luis Van Gaal came in Barça and put a little bit upper. Even Gerard Lopez sometimes played at that position, but then in Valencia played upper as a second striker.

28:26So with this example, I want to try to show that his common sense or his logic is logic, but is not easy to put in practice. Okay. And another thing that I think is very important, what Rafa said, is that it's personal opinion. It's a personal opinion that for me, system is not so important. The most important is the idea and the philosophy. So if you play 1-4-4-2 or 1-4-2-3-1 or 1-4-3-3, it's more important the system and the idea than, sorry, the idea and the philosophy than the system.

29:08Guillem Balague:This is the Football Daily Podcast with Mark Chapman.

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30:06Visit bbc.com forward slash subscribe to find out more.

30:12Guillem Balague:In the early 90s, women's tennis was having a moment. This is a match that will live in the memory of all of us. So, hello. Steffi had been so dominant, suddenly along came Monica Sellers. She hit the bar big, she hit two hands off both sides. And just when tennis fans were licking their lips at the prospect of a rivalry that would push the sport to new heights, one of the strangest and most shocking sporting crimes brought it to a grinding halt. Monica Sellers has been stabbed by a spectator. This man stole her story from her. Sports' strangest crimes. Tennis' darkest hour. Listen on BBC Sounds.

30:52Guillem Balague:This is the Football Daily Podcast with Mark Chapman. Guillaume Balaguet and Rafa Benitez are still with us. Cesar Aspilicueta will join us shortly. Sticking true, Guillaume, just going back to what we were talking about before the news, sticking true to that philosophy over many years through thick and thin is easier said than done in my experience of sport. Yeah, and there will be, as you said, times where things go wrong. Partly, this is a bit complicated, but Barcelona is two clubs in one. They're always like one side and the other side will think completely different. But in any case, what the coaches tend to think is what Johan Cruyff made them think, which is, number one, think differently.

31:42Number two, if we have the ball, the other team doesn't have it. but he did I know Jordi has been a little bit generous to Johan because he did not create a methodology he created a way of thinking the person that created the methodology as in putting the exercises setting it all up was Bangal so if we talk about unsung heroes of the success of Spanish football he should be included at the level of many others because he created again a bible of what Johan Cruyff meant and what the 4-3-3 was about. Then coaches like Pep Segura, which is another guru of Spanish football that ended up being the director of the academy at Liverpool under Rafa.

32:26Then he developed this idea and took it abroad. But basically, going back to why Barcelona continues succeeding with more or less the same idea, it's because even in the wrong times there was something they could hang on to.

32:41Guillem Balague:I understand, Rafa, the whole emotional side of Cruyff and Barcelona, but Barcelona and Cruyff are not the only club player to have special relationships. And you have managed, as you said, Spain, in Italy and England. It is not far off unique for that link to stay as strong as it has. Yeah, the experience that I have is that I was a player of Real Madrid Academy for 10 years. And then after, I was a coach of Real Madrid Academy 10 years. Then after, obviously, with the first team. But this time, and I was competing against Barcelona this time when Johan Cruyff was there. So we're playing a lot of games against them.

33:31And then what Jordi was saying is something that I said that was crucial. Well, integral methodology. So the method that we were using in Spain, a lot of coaches, and then Cesar will agree with that. When he said Guardiola was weak, then we have to work in the gym. He has to do extra job. The Portuguese tactical approach, they don't used to do that. We used to do that in Spain. We used to work on the mentality of the player, the understanding of the game, the physicality. So the technique, everything, that is the key. and we did it for years in all the academies. So it's not just La Masia, but they were successful or they are successful.

34:14Yes, but Real Madrid was winning. Or Sassuna, Valencia, Bilbao, Sevilla. They had a lot of very good players, successful players. And when Jordi was saying, and Guillem was saying the same, Gines was using them as a team, but the players, they were training and they were coaches in their own teams. for these coaches that they were fitness coaches with experience in football, coaches that they were learning. So for me, the success is the whole thing together.

34:46Guillem Balague:We're going to talk about the Basque region next. Cesar Vazpola-Queta is with us. Evening, how are you? Hi. Good to see you. Before I bring you in, Guillaume, you just take me through the Basque region and a region here that has produced a crop of talented players that were crucial, particularly to the last World Cup triumph. There were, what, one, two, three, four, five, six in that squad. Yeah, throughout the history of the national side, Basque coaches and players have been absolutely crucial. And I think to explain the Basque country football culture, you have to explain what's happening there.

35:23They're a bit different. And they represent a special reference, as I said, in the history of Spanish football. They relate to work ethic, daily effort, sense of belonging. Coaches and people, they feel part of a bigger thing, be it history, a family tree, a culture, a club. This is important. And what's important is the club and the history, not them. They live in a community that appreciates collectiveness. So there are gastronomic clubs. They belong to a quadrilla, friends from a long time since the school. So it is easy to feel part of a community, a group, a team, a club when they go out of their environment.

36:05They're very, very competitive and the Basque country is very, very sporting. And there are all kinds of sports from throwing tree trunks to pelota vasca. And competitiveness is valued, but only if it's done with respect. So these are people, especially when they get in a job of authority, say being a manager, that transmit authority, that same authority, through their knowledge, not through their charisma. And many leave the Basque country early because there is not a lot of jobs in there. So that means that they are adaptable. They go to the rest of Spain abroad and adapt. And why they start wearing in England, I think Rafa's big on that, partly is because of the weather.

36:45The weather's back there. The weather's back here. So it's part of the adaptation. Easy adaptation.

36:50Guillem Balague:It's been glorious today, Guillaume. And there's a part of me that really wants to investigate the tree trunk throwing, if I'm honest with you. Do you know he was a champion? He was a champion of that, Julian Lopetegui. What, tree trunk throwing? Yeah. You'll wind it up. No, it's true. He was very, very good at it. And not that you could get a career out of it, but you could get money out of it. Yeah, yeah. Very good. I mean, you had a spell at Osasuna, didn't you, Rafa? which is, I mean, everybody talks about Athletic Club and Real Sociedad, but also Suna plays its part too. Yeah, I was there.

37:22And then there was a time in second division with a special league, the league of 22, but a complicated part. I will say, for example, at this time, what Guillem was saying is right. So they have the mentality, team spirit. That is the reason why I say Spain is successful because we were working in everything, not just one part of the game, not just the technique. So the Dutch teams, they are not winning. Why? Obviously, they have less people, but they are not winning even with the same philosophy. Why are they not winning? Because they don't have the characteristic of the Spanish mentality. And then you say the Basque, they were together.

37:58But at this time, when I went to Osasuna, they used to play man to man all around the pitch. They were not passing the ball. They were just man to man, aggressive intensity and these kind of things. So I think that Spain has made an evolution. and 2008 could be when Spain has a lot of talented players and they were successful. Luis Aragonés was trying to play more passing football. Later on was Del Bosque, but especially all the academies and the national team, all the teams in the national team, they follow the same model of play. And then the Basque players, because remember Guillem at the time with Javier Clemente and the national team, Spain used to play more direct football.

38:36So they changed to passing football because they were successful with the national team, because Barcelona was passing the ball, but the Real Madrid, Sevilla, Las Palmas, when you go to Canarias, come on, we have players in Canarias, Pedri Silva, they used to pass the ball. So Spain, what they have created is a methodology that has been around all the academies, and the national team has continued this idea. That's the success of the national team.

39:06Guillem Balague:How, Guillaume, do they balance the sort of balance between Basque and Spanish? Because there are many Basques that don't identify as Spanish, and yet Basque players have been crucial to the Spanish team. Is that a delicate balancing act? I think it is outside the teams. And I know that you sometimes have to explain the lack of success of Spanish football until 2008. and many will just go back to this idea that Catalans and Basques don't want to be with the national side. But when you are inside a team or inside that football world or you are a player, you want to succeed. You want to be with the best.

39:46And I don't think there was that much of difference or divorce between the Catalans and the Basques and the people from Madrid, the people of Sevilla once they got into the national side. It was used, again, as a myth to explain the lack of success. Now that we're winning, what's happened? We all love each other. It was the same way done before, really, just as Ginés Carvajal explains in that message to you. Basically, he wanted to create a group of friends that were together at 15, 16, 17, and the best ones getting to the first team. And friends don't look at each other's passport, do they?

40:20Guillem Balague:Did you find that within the Spain setup, that club rivalries, regional rivalries were put to one side because of what they'd implemented through the age groups yeah completely and I think that feeling I had since I started age 15 in young teams we were all coming from different cultures of playing football and you know to the senior team you have when you come to the national team I think you put everything aside and yes you know you play big games against friends that in the national team you share a lot of time together but then when you have the competitive league or cup game then you forget about about that and you are together in the national team fighting for the for the same target so do you think you therefore feel it is important that that was put in from such an early age from when you were there with under 15s Yeah, it's very important.

41:21And I think that mix of cultures, of way of learning football brings a lot of different qualities to the team. And I think at the end, the team benefits from that. And, you know, normally, let's say up north, we are more defenders. We are more like tough, less skillful. You know, the more in the south you have these talented players, they can triple, they can do different stuff. So all together, it's a great mix.

41:52Guillem Balague:So I mentioned earlier when we were talking about tree trunks, you grew up in Navarro, didn't you? So a region with heavy Spanish and Basque influences. If I ask you what are Basque influencers, what does that mean to you? Well, I could say the discipline, the culture of working hard, of not giving up or being resilient, not very flashy. I would say normally people want this culture of fight or being tough. like a bit kind of English football more duals, more physical less technical but also in terms of tactical approach more compact great knowledge of knowing where to go and with the ball keep it simple and try to go forward as quick as possible.

42:51With Cesar, because about the rivalry, I think it was clear and Cesar has been also explaining. I think it was more about some coaches and some directors that they tried to create this division. And at the end of the day, the players inside, they feel that we are teammates, that's it. But some coaches and some directors, they were trying to create that. And hopefully they will not do it in the future, but it was like that.

43:15Guillem Balague:Does Mikel Moreno, Guillaume, symbolise that Basque spirit? Although he's from Navarra, isn't he? And came through at Osasuna. Yeah, but actually, yes, he's from Newcastle. But, you know, it's complicated. Navarra, people think something that they bask, those things that they're from Navarra, different thing. But the culture is quite similar, really. And yes, he's one of the many that symbolize that. Luis de la Fuente spent a lot of time in Bilbao as well with the Athletic Club and understands perfectly well what the Basque can add. And, you know, Xavi Alonso, Mikel Arteta, you go to managers then, Unai Emery, Julen Lopetegui, Juan Malillo that was with Pep Guardiola.

44:02There's so many that represent all these things that we're talking about. The work ethic, the thinking like one, the feeling like they are a cog within a big machine. All those things are very much a Basque thing.

44:15Guillem Balague:Do you see common sense more than anything else? Do you see just keeping it simple? Yeah, and I think it's very important. Sometimes we want to complicate a lot of football and sometimes it's more simple than that. It's just trying to play with the players you have and then get the maximum. I think as a coach, you have the players, especially in a national team, you can pick your players and then you have to try to get the maximum in a tournament that is quick, that goes fast, that there will be some tough moments and you have to go through them. Do the Spanish FA or Spanish Federation, Guillem, prefer understated?

44:55He has. They've tried all kinds. Luis Enrique is completely the opposite, obviously. But sometimes it's forgetting where you come from and what has given you success. Perhaps the pressure can actually blare your judgment. Right now, we've got a coach that has gone through the ranks. It makes a lot of sense. But Iñaki Saez, who was the guy that chose Gines Menendez all those years back, became the national coach and failed. So success is not guaranteed. But what seems very clear now, obviously, with the renewal of the contract of Luis de la Fuente, is that there is a way of doing that it feels like is solid, is consistent and can last a long time.

45:36And that part of that is to have a manager that everybody's happy with and it doesn't create controversies. I think when you win, as he won already the Nations League, he had a tough moment in the first few games. And then when he won the Nations League, he made a lot of subs and then the team lost. So that was a tough moment. And then he built from there. They won the Nations League. They won the Euros. And I think that gives you confidence. That gives you power. And it's like a positive dynamic. And then many things that he was making in the World Cup, maybe in another situation, you know, it was different.

46:21So that confidence, realize the pressure, it's completely opposite to other countries when, you know, like England, you know, after such a long time without winning. Then when the big moment arrives, I think, you know, to control that pressure and that panic is not easy. you need support as a coach as a manager you need support from the people at the top so when you have a country behind or when you have a massive group of fans behind in any team so if you don't have the support then everybody will have an opinion so as Cesar is saying if you talk about the names Guillem you say Niaquisa, Del Bosque, Luis Aragonés, Luis Enrique they are big names so Spain like England like Italy they look for big names because nobody will question that.

47:08But if you are lucky enough to have someone who's not a big name and is very successful, you give him confidence and nobody will argue with that. So I think Spain has found a position, a situation that everybody is comfortable with the style of football, with the coach, and everybody is very supportive. And they will upset that you lose some games because they know that it's part of the process in this case.

47:32Guillem Balague:Just before, because Rafa and Cesar are going to leave us shortly. And I'm not trying to make you say something that might make you look stupid in two years' time if Spain failed to qualify for the Euros or something. But when you look at the system, both of you, and you look at the sustained success over the last nearly 20 years now, obviously not winning everything, but it's still sustained success. Do you believe the setup will allow this to continue for many more years, even though sport is cyclical? My experience, Tessar, because I have been in the board meetings at UEFA, the top sides, apart from Italy, there has been something special.

48:12They always qualified. They will always qualify. Why? Because the way that the system is done, you play in a group of four or five and you have two or three teams that are worse than you. That's it. Even in your worst day, still you will win. So to qualify will be easy. To win, then is when you have to play against the top sides. Spain can do it, yes, because they can qualify. This year, Spain was going with players that were injured, and people were questioning, oh, these players are injured. But you knew that you had three weeks to give them time to recover because you will play games that you will win easily.

48:49So I think that the system, the way that it's organised, the teams, the top side, they will qualify. Then who will win? Obviously, it depends on a good generation. If Spain has a good generation of players, they will stay there. if the other countries have a good group of players, maybe they can compete. But still, I think Spain has young players with talent. And Cesar is one of them, young players with talent. I think you need to recycle and you will have to keep changing the way you play. Football evolves very quick. So I could say the setup is ready. We have been successful in the young teams winning a lot of trophies.

49:26So those players, you get ready for the competition at the biggest stage. and then you have to replicate it at the highest level. So I say the setup is ready for it, but you will need to recycle and to evolve and to offer different things because although for me Spain has been the best team in the World Cup, they were the best team in the Euros, but they have played a bit of different football for moments and they had adapted to the situation very well. So that's a very important aspect of a team, of a group, to adapt and to deliver in different conditions.

50:04Guillem Balague:Did you feel, and you will know all about this from your time, very quickly before I let you go, did you feel, I don't know, Brazil in the 70s had this or Germany in the 90s, certainly as far as an English perspective is concerned, do you feel like you had a psychological advantage over most teams? that, hey, we're Spain, we've got one up on you before we've even started? Yeah, I believe so. I believe Spain, I remember very well when I was starting in the youth teams and we used to play 4-2-3-1. And Hines back in the day, I was listening to you guys speaking about him. He was always saying him and the coach and Signaki that we had an advantage because we were playing with an extra line in the line-up.

50:51because normally the teams, they played 4-3-3. So we were playing like 4-2-3-1. And, you know, that was giving us like a strength that back in the day we didn't know much about the system. And we were just building our way up and to play in the same way as in the senior level.

51:12Guillem Balague:Cesar Rafa, thank you very much for being with us this evening. Rafa Benitez, Cesar Azpilacueta with us. Just a quick one, Guillaume. for all the celebration, for all the talk of the World Cup wins and Euro wins, there is a sense among certain fan bases that, and it goes back to the regional thing, that not everybody is together here. The federation may believe that they are and maybe the players may believe that they are, but maybe the fans feel differently. Yeah, yeah, they do. I mean, there is a reason why Athletic Club decided, fans decided to boo the Athletic Club players that won the World Cup when they celebrated the first game at home.

51:50Or why Barcelona, I would say, taking advantage or using an excuse of what had happened a few days previously when a Barcelona fan with a Catalan flag was hit by police in a previous game. That was what Barcelona used not to celebrate the World Cup with the players at the Camp Nou. So that is on the back of the clubs knowing the fan base. And the fan base, a lot of it, Barcelona fans, Atleti club fans, they just don't like Spain, which is fine, but Spain is a nation of nations. So you've got different ways of relating to your own nation. Sometimes looking at an enemy, other times just appreciating your nation next door.

52:38And in this case, football is very tribal, quite clearly. some Basques and some Catalans don't want the success of Spain

52:46Guillem Balague:Guillaume thank you for all your work on this fascinating stuff, see you soon, Guillaume Ballaguet with us as well, that's it for this pod, thank you very much to Guillaume and the next episode of the Football Daily oh dear, it's the commentator's view

53:13Get all the latest news and interviews from the biggest stars of the women's game. Alexa Pitez, welcome to the Women's Football Weekly. I love competition, I love football, I love training, I love to improve. To win a league like the WSL, you have to be at your best every single week. Listen with the BBC Sounds app.

53:36With a subscription to the BBC website and app, You can now get early access to your favorite BBC podcasts. Listen to shows like You're Dead to Me, In Our Time, Good Bad Billionaire, and more. Plus, there's all the other great benefits you get with a BBC subscription, from live streaming the BBC News Channel and acclaimed documentaries to in-depth analysis and features. Visit bbc.com forward slash subscribe to find out more.