The Wayne Rooney Show: Clichy on Mbappe, Henderson & France in 2010

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1:06Discover the V-Series lineup at cadillac.com. And Guy Neville called everyone in and we had a vote to go on strike and every player voted to go on strike. I remember thinking, I want to play man. I want to play freedom. You speak about Mbappe and how amazing he is as well but then you've got like Dembele and Elisa as well. I never I just thought I'd see the day with a friend Frank to come to the world, the English players. Personally, I wouldn't have taken him. I completely understand why he's taking me. To help manage the training sessions the next day. Even being honest, I think, to help drive them training sessions because he is a leader, Jordan.

1:43Hello and welcome to the Wayne Rooney Show. We're in the midst of World Cup fever and as always, Wayne's here. But today we're joined by a very special guest, Gail Clichy, to talk all things World Cup. and we are recording before the France game, France's first game. So we don't know how that's gone so far. But how have you been finding the World Cup so far, guys? Well, the time difference is just a killer. Obviously, I'm waiting for France, England. I'm going to follow as well, Switzerland. But yeah, they're the two main team that I'm going to follow, really. France and England. Yeah, what about yourself?

2:14Yeah, no, do you know what? I've enjoyed it more than I thought. I think some games have been poor, but some games I've really enjoyed and because I've played out there I know how difficult it is to play in that heat and they've been a lot quicker than what I thought maybe that's because the first game might slow down a little bit in the later stages but Do you like the addition of the new teams to like 48 teams? No I don't like the format I think there's too many teams and I think it's a shame you know when you see the Germany game I think there's teams who it's great great story but the teams who are just now happy to be there and that there's no ambition it's not their fault by the way no ambition of going through where i think you know that's why we're seeing some some poor games i think we're fighting negative football as well but those teams got no weapons you know to do anything so they have to have like back five and and the line of four uh and if we go back a few weeks ago with munich and psg 5-4 this is the football we want to see so we're fighting negative football and bringing much more teams of that level is great for their country, but overall for football in general, I think.

3:26But what you'll never take away is Cape Verde, the result against Spain, which I think no one's seen coming. So that will never be taken away from them. And they're not going to progress much further from the tournament. Well, you never know though, but you never know though, because I think in some groups, a third team can go through to the next round. Yeah. So you never know. I mean, they're goalkeepers has been causing an absolute storm. Have you seen how many followers? Yeah, yeah, that's mad. Right, let's get straight into it. So what do we think of England or Scotland's chances? We need an outside voice on here, Gael.

3:57Do you think England are contenders? Yeah, of course. Of course. And I'm not saying this just because I love England. I'm saying this because of what Wayne said a few minutes earlier. And I do feel that English football has evolved over the last 15 years, you know, opening doors for different managers, different culture to mix a bit of the game. But I think if you look in terms of quality, there is quality all around the squad's intensity. Premier League for me is probably not the best league in the world for some people, but it's the most competitive one. And you can see that clearly, you know, when we have players from England coming in France or to Spain, the first six, eight months, you can feel that urgency to make effort, to make tackle, to that driving force to win.

4:45that desire to play football and i think england got that naturally i think the talent is there i think they have a manager that can actually you know guide a group and the last competition they did the last two competition where we're actually over quality you know good quality so of course they're contender uh like wayne said you know in big tournament you need a bit of luck as well right time right players in the right moment but i will want france to win of course but if france cannot win it, I will put my money on England. This is the first time, what Guyl said before about France having a B and C team, this is the first time you can say England have got a B team, maybe not C.

5:24But then if you look at Maguire, Foden, Cole Palmer, you look at the players who were left out. You see what's happened with Dembele the last couple of years, and there's no coincidence that he was not struggling, but he went at the level he is now. Can you imagine how he feels when Luis Enrique says, I want these players, I want you? Yeah. And then for the other players to say, this is about the team, you have to work hard together as a team, you have to, we'll win as a team, we're not winning because of one individual, we're doing it together as a team. It lifts everyone, it gives everyone that feeling like, this coach appreciates you running, he appreciates you tackling, where it's not just someone who's got to get the ball, score from 30 yards or take everyone on, It's actually, he's prioritised the team and it shows that working together as a team, it works.

6:17Do you think that's why probably somebody like Jordan Henderson has been called in? Jordan, I think, is, personally, I wouldn't have taken him, but I think, but I completely understand why he's taken him. He's taken him, I think, firstly to help manage the training sessions the next day. Even being honest, I think, to help drive them training sessions because he is a leader, Jordan. and the day after the game you know it's like when you don't play and the players are recovering and then you have to go and train and it's intense and it's like you want to be over that side in the pool or on the bike stretching and stuff and Jordan will make sure that session stays and the manager mightn't even be at that session the manager might be speaking to the players from the game before the night before so Jordan will be there and he'll be helping drive that session and push that session and keep the standard tight so I think that's a big reason why he's there but he has had a good season as well so will he get used?

7:09I don't think he will I don't think he'll get much game time but I think his experience and players will be down it's natural it's normal in the World Cup players get upset they struggle to deal with maybe getting a bit of stick in the media they struggle to not get in the game time and Jordan will recognise that Neil will be someone who if a player doesn't want to go to the manager with him they'll go and speak to him and say I just need a bit of guidance here so I get why he's there but I would have personally of taking another player who I think can push more for a starting place? I think it's a good point because I think when you build a group like this for a competition you have three types of groups.

7:46You have the star player who will always play. You have the player that are here to carry water and they know they're here for that. And you have the in-betweeners. Carry water. No, but that's why we call them in France. And then you have the in-betweeners and you can have two types of in-betweeners. The one that is pushing to take the start 11th position or you have the one like Reign just said about Anderson who are here. And I think he's actually grateful to be part of this team because... He knows. Yeah, he knows. So you can decide the in-betweeners. If you pick wrong, you can actually destroy the spirit of your team.

8:21And, you know, funny enough, I was that kind of guy when Deschamps didn't pick me for Brazil. I was the in-betweener that was pushing to start the game. And he told me 10 years after when I became assistant of the Under-21, he told me that's the reason I didn't take you. because I knew that you were going to put me in trouble because you're training really hard. But I know in my head, I've got my start 11. So what happens if you perform every day and you push and you push and you push and the group start to realise that, hey, this guy should be playing. So it would disrupt the energy of the group.

8:58So your in-betweeners is probably the most important pick that you will have. We saw Scotland play. Have they impressed you? I've found a little bit of a soft spot for them. Oh, really? Yeah, I want them to do well. Yeah, do you know, I think for me... I think because I know some of the players, my mate Darren Fletcher, his son Tyler, has been called up into the squad and I sent my picture. Darren sent me Scotland kits with number eight Fletcher on the back and I've done pictures and sent them back to him and stuff. So I think that brings it a bit closer as well, so why want them to do well? I think for me, it's just wonderful seeing, it's another home nation, right?

9:40And seeing... I wouldn't say the same with Wales. I always remember the day we got knocked out by Twiceland and the Wales team were watching in the hotel and they're up celebrating. And I just thought, they can be happy we got knocked out, it's not a problem, and they're all posting it on their social media and I've never forgotten. Fair, fair. I mean, yeah. Wayne Rooney holds a grudge. Big one as well Yeah big one as well I think Scotland can progress though What you're looking at You're probably looking at three points But They've got that haven't they No but it's goal difference Because only eight of the Eight teams After 16 In third place I think they can nick a point In any of the other games So it's going to go on goal difference So I think they've looked at it On all the data People have looked at it And saying if you're on three points With minus two Goal difference That should get you through I don't trust any of the data nerds.

10:36Now they've got Morocco and Brazil coming up. I'm just going to say this. Brazil aren't the Brazil of old. I think this isn't 98. This isn't 2002. They're not, but they've got good players. Yeah, but when your striker plays for Brentford, you're not Brazil.

10:56Don't try to get us in trouble there. I'm not getting you in trouble. It's me in trouble, right? But if your striker plays for Brentford, it's not Brazil. Yeah, but at the same time, Italy has been out of the competition for like two competitions. So football is different now. And what I like to say with what Rain is saying is that you don't expect Scotland to reach semifinals, but they're going to bring what they can bring, that togetherness, that energy. And in today's football, of course, if you have that, if you have those values, you can do something. Right, well, let's talk a bit about France.

11:30Gail, what's your expectation to France? I mean, there's always high expectations for France. You lost to Ivory Coast in the build-up to the World Cup. But what do you see your chances? That's just a friendly game, but there's a big point to it. Every time France is playing one of those African sides, it's always been difficult. And it's even more hard nowadays because this nation are growing. Like if you take Morocco, for example, it's been two decades. They've been working on bringing players who've been coached in France, French academy, French football. And now can you get to the French national team?

12:11We can give you right now a tournament for you to express your talent. So you find those teams, those nations with players that know how to play the game, as we know in France, because they've been through the rank of French academy, strong physical, with good knowledge of the game. and it's very difficult. So that game is not an important game, but for the first game of the tournament against Senegal, this is what we should expect. Well, that's right. Senegal, I think there's 12 players who played for Senegal who were born in France. So you can imagine for them players, they'll be thinking, right, the French Federation didn't think we were good enough to play for that.

12:47They want to show France that they're better than them. So it's a very similar situation with Morocco, isn't it? Because I looked at the Morocco starting lineup and most of them were born outside of Morocco as well. If you look in France, I think in that competition, I think you have 98 or 99 players who were born in France. So they're playing in different countries and like Wayne said, rightly so. It's either I need to show you that you didn't want to pick me, but I'm good enough to play against or for you. And if it's not the case, I wanted to represent my parents' country and I'm going to show you what you're missing out.

13:23So it's always a difficult game for French national team, but this Senegal team is special as well. So what do you think is an acceptable finish for France? Is it winning the whole thing? I think you can't talk less than semi-final, but that's being generous as well. With the player we have in the past 10 years, with Deschamps, you did two World Cup final, you won one, lost one on penalties, you lost Euro Championship against Portugal. this is his last tournament people are saying in France his teams are not teams that play football but they win so you can kind of see the story last big tournament for him big generation of players can they bring the cup home surely they can so really if you want France to do well they have to go to the final other than this okay it would be acceptable if you reach the semi-final but with the player we have and what's been happening over the last 10 years, you'd like to see them reaching the final.

14:28Going back to what we were saying before about the added teams to the competition, this tournament won't start really until the quarterfinals. And then you're going to see the big teams really in the quarterfinals, unless you might get one who shocks you and maybe the Netherlands don't qualify and someone else comes to. But you're going to see the big teams in the quarterfinals. and then that's when it starts really and then you need a bit of luck there because I think there's Spain. I know they do the first game but you imagine Spain, Portugal, France, England, probably the four favourites and then you've got Brazil and Argentina as well.

15:07So it doesn't really kick off till the quarterfinals. Do you think there's too much pressure on Mbappe when you're coming into this? I mean, he's come off an interesting sort of season at Real Madrid. I mean, he's been scoring but obviously they haven't won anything. I think he's been brilliant. I don't think he's scored how many goals? Over 40, yeah. 40-odd goals and he gets stick because... And Real did a different club and he gets stick because he goes on holiday, which... Everyone knows, obviously, Gael is playing as well. If a player gets an injury, it's good for them to get a bit of sun rest, especially if it's before the World Cup.

15:46and so yeah, I think you talk about pressure, I don't think he's, it looks to me like he's never felt pressure and you know, he's scored a Hattuck World Cup final, he's won the World Cup and he's just a top quality player, isn't he? I think he's also struggling with the comparison of Paris, you know, he was there, he was the face of the club trying to reach the final and win the Champions League with Paris and obviously he's leaving. And the same year, Paris is actually winning the Champions League and the following years as well. So in France, people like to hate our champions. And unfortunately for him, he's the victim of his success.

16:31But Wayne knows this. I've never been in that seat where you have to carry the weight of a team. He's that kind of guy. And when you score 40-plus goals in Madrid, nobody can stand in front of me and tell me that that player didn't have a great season okay maybe the manager maybe the club didn't structure the team in a way for him to work and be successful but when you score 40 plus goals of course as a striker What's the view like in France? Do they love him or is there a massive amount of expectation for him? No I think you know in France but that's just not him you know Cherry okay I'm going to bring this back and sorry guys if some of you are from Ireland but the handball that sent us to the World Cup you know in South Africa Maradona was you know good because of that situation and we destroyed Cherry because of the same situation it's just to show you that the one mistake Kylian did he said okay the year before he left for Madrid he said oh if I wanted to win the Champions League I wouldn't be here I would be in Madrid you know and then he left to Madrid and they won the Champions League and he hasn't won so people just like to hate when you are successful in France.

17:43So it's not a question of pressure, it's just a question of perception of the guy and the player, really. Yeah, I've always thought he's performed incredibly well for France. I feel like, personally, some of his best performances have always come in a French shirt. Can you imagine scoring a hat stick in a World Cup final? But I think he's... Being on the losing side. Is he what? Four or six goals to the most goals scored in World Cup competition? He's what? He's 24? He's 20-something? I mean, that's just, it's just crazy. I think you're forgetting, I think, as a society, it's not just France and England and, you know, different countries.

18:22Instead of appreciating what's in front of them, I think we're trying to look at, you know, the negatives. Kylian Mbappe will win a Champions League. I think there's no doubt about that. but I think we fail to recognise what's in front of us and enjoy it and we're looking and saying he didn't do this here or he didn't do this there instead of saying let's just enjoy this as a generational talent we're possibly never going to see something like him, he's as close to Arnaud as I've seen so you look at Messi and Ronaldo, they're top, yeah Mbappe is as close to our nan as you see. He's skilful. He can drive with people running behind, score goals.

19:09I think we're at danger of not appreciating him now. And then we're going to look back and say, I grew up in that generation. Why didn't I appreciate that a bit more?

19:24You look at that French front line, we speak about Mbappe and how amazing he is as well. But then you've got Dembele and Elisa as well. I never thought I'd see the day where French coming to rob the English players I was laughing when you see when they do the line up all the French players say the names yes I've seen that Michael Alissier no go French in it that was a bad accent yeah because they do they've got a tradition as well where they wear the kits that they and he's got a Chelsea yeah he's got a Chelsea Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, but it's still amazing. I mean, you've got, like I said, Dembele and Elisse.

20:04You as a French fan or as a French person yourself must be expecting goals galore. Are we surprised by now what France can produce? You know, if we're being honest, you know. Well, like you said, you nicked him from us. You know what? You know, it's a funny thing because I think he will be the idol of many in France because of that. You know, we have that situation like, you know, you guys can have or maybe Wales or Scotland with different nationalities. You know, like we were talking before, we've played a choice in Morocco or Senegal or whatever. From the very first minute, you always said you wanted to play for France.

20:44And this is a big thing because in the end, you know, you have to wait for your time. But maybe your time is not this competition. But if a nation can actually give you that tournament now, you know, some player will just go. And for him, the situation was very simple. I think he was in the days where he left Palace to go to Munich and he actually said to company, I'm going to come and I'm really happy to come, but I have to be able to finish. You have to allow me to finish the adventure at the Olympics with France. That's a big statement because this is probably the best day of his life and the most important one because if Bayern said no, then what does it mean?

21:24Are you staying at Palace? So it just shows you that the guy was always, and he played for France, youth level, but he was always committed to France. But yet he doesn't speak as good as a French guy. You know, it's a funny story. I mean, that's what he's grown up speaking, isn't it? But it's similar with Harvey Barnes, who got offered the opportunity to go and play for Scotland in the World Cup. And he's obviously English. And he said, no, he wants to try and play for England, which I respect a lot. and is he going to play for England or not? You don't know, but he's turned down the opportunity to go and play at a World Cup to try and play for England.

22:01So I completely get that and respect it. What is it about France that makes you able to produce such amazing players? Because you could put out numerous squads and still get far. I reckon you could put out a B team and still get to about the quarters. And the C team as well. And the 21, no joke. But I think since the War Cup in 1998, I think France got a system that works, you know, to develop and nurture players. I think England are benefiting as well a lot from foreign coaches coming in. And now we're seeing more and more English players going out to play abroad. Obviously, you look at Harry Kane.

22:39Anthony Gordon, obviously, he's gone out there. We've got a lot of English players now. Willem, Jude Bellingham's been out in Germany. He's out in Spain. a lot of players going to play abroad but I think the foreign coaches who've come into England there's no surprise over the last 10 years England has done better in tournaments because they're getting coached by a Guardiola by a Jürgen Klopp by a Mourinho and technically English players are better than they've ever been now so I think seeing something different when you come through the system in England which obviously I've been to in the academies it was all one way of playing it was fighting it was tackle it was you know be aggressive get stuck in.

23:16Get into one phase. Now it's more, okay, can we play out? Can we take the ball? Can we have control of the game? So I think the English players are benefiting from these top coaches coming in as well. Gael, I can't have you here and not talk about 2010. What's that? I don't want to talk about 2010. Okay, let's keep it. Next page, man. I was watching The Bus, that documentary. I was in The Bus. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I just want to ask, I guess, how difficult was it during that period? I mean, you were sort of like a younger player back then as well. Being amidst all of that as well, I mean, Raymond Dominic and the French media and all of that.

24:01How was it being in and amongst all of that? You know, after that tournament, we had like people from the Federation calling each of us individually to have, you know, the feeling of what happened. And they asked me, you know, what would you change? And I said, well, you'd be shocked, but I wouldn't change anything. That was a dream to play for my country in the World Cup. And I've done it. I would have loved for it to be different, but this is it. And it's only coming like 20 years later, that story. But it just shows you, and with Wayne, we speak sometime about, you know, being a coach and being a leader of a team.

24:40that moment is actually happening because Dominic decided to take Thierry Henry off the captaincy and put players in front of him rightly so or not I don't know but from that moment on in that bus if Thierry is still the authority within the dressing room this doesn't happen really? so you think he was a talisman of course Patrice wasn't as captain did he? Patrice was captain but I'm not saying that Patrice is responsible for this I'm just saying that Cherry had a different stature At that time I was playing with Patrice at Man Utd and he was still quite young as well and Patrice was always outspoken and he'll speak his mind but sometimes I think you need probably a little bit of experience, yeah of course in the moment and if you say in 2010 and the team should be captain over Thierry, then you'd probably say...

25:41Not sure. I know probably you might want to say, but probably not in that moment. Even William Gallas in the documentary says he was expecting to become the captain as well. Well, he was the vice captain after Thierry. So, you know, if you take it step by step, the captain is out, then the vice captain and everything changed. But this documentary was nice because people could see, because we got destroyed. First of all, that generation of players, we went behind after the Zidane, and Michael Lele, Vieira. So already the challenge to go after them is just crazy. And we had someone as a coach who wanted to be the actor of the show.

26:23You can't have that because we were speaking with Wayne. When you're a coach, wherever you are, Champions League level, fourth division, your player are going to make you the manager that you deserve to be. he was the leader of a team that needed to be led the correct way and that documentary is actually showing the whole world that he was none of a manager you know what I mean make the players feel empowered and it's players decisions what's happening and if they have to step in they step in and especially if you've got egos in the dressing room which the French team will have the English team will have whatever team will have big egos in the dressing room and as a manager if you're trying to be centre stage I think you're always asking for trouble.

27:11But his time started with taking out Zidane Mikelille all the oldest players that's before I started to play for France results were negative so he called them back from that moment on you've lost you've lost all authority within the dressing room because we know I need you from the moment you're telling me I need you guys you know you're not going to help us and what happened there in South Africa is just the continuity of what happened in 2008 when he asked his girlfriend to become you know his wife you know from that moment on again you know a wrong decision not him but it's a wrong decision for people who want to keep him in the job you know so of course we talk about that incident but before that there are moments key moments that would have changed the course of that I'm not saying Did you ever wonder if you were picked based off of your star sign?