Tuchel & Kane on England v Spain

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1:05This is the Football Daily Podcast with John Murray and Ian Dennis.

1:10Ian Dennis:Hello, I'm John Murray and this is a 5 Live Football Daily to look ahead to, I think by common agreement, the most attractive match of this international window. England World Cup semi-finalists this summer against the new champion Spain at Wembley Stadium, 69 days on from us witnessing Rodri lifting the trophy in New Jersey. And I say we because Ian Dennis is here alongside me in the sunshine here at Tottenham's training ground. On this podcast we'll also hear from Thomas Tuchel and Harry Kane, manager and captain. Five Live will be the place to listen to the match commentary with us from 7.45 Saturday night with our England regulars Paul Robinson and Matthew Upson as part of the commentary team.

1:57Ian Dennis:And also look out on BBC Sounds for a special Football Daily reacting to today's Manchester City news. But Ian, this is the point, I think, where England move on from the recriminations of that much talked about last half hour or so of the semi-final in Atlanta when England's hopes of winning the World Cup ended. yeah and I thought it was interesting that the FA put the England captain Harry Kane up to dead with that in mind because only a couple of days ago he'd spoken to the written press and the fact that he was then speaking once more on the eve of this game I thought that that was the FA's way of saying okay he's done his reflections and that particularly that half an hour against Argentina that there's been we've all been referring to whereas this is now very much looking to the future.

2:50Ian Dennis:He echoed very similar to what Thomas Tuchel has said, that this isn't a new beginning, the building on the foundations, but looking then ahead to the Nations League campaign. And as you say, what a game to focus on, that against Spain, who were undefeated in 38 matches. So it's going to be a real test for England. Only defeat in that time, penalty shootouts in the last final of this competition against Portugal. Ian, there's been a lot of talk, hasn't there, this week about the five withdrawals from the squad, including Cole Palmer. Obviously, Thomas Tuchel talking about that publicly today for the first time.

3:25Ian Dennis:He said that they trust the players and you have to believe the fact that they've all withdrawn from injury. He said that those players know that if they miss an international window, then the pressure is on to get back into the squad, although the door's always open. He said there's no mistrust or threat of consequences. And he said that in his experience, you know, the opposite is true. It's not that there are players who don't want to be here. He says every England qualified player wants to be here. And on Cole Palmer, just for the record, he has said Cole Palmer is currently playing with discomfort and pain in his groin.

4:04Ian Dennis:And he said his understanding is that Cole Palmer cannot perform at the highest level. He said they are not managing a load. and that is the situation with Cole Palmer, according to Thomas Tuchel. Well, I mean, you spoke to Thomas Tuchel, and you were in his press conference whilst I was with Harry Kane, and I think sometimes you can read the headline where Tuchel had said he misses too many tournaments, and you're thinking, oh, blimey. But then there was context to that, wasn't there? Because of his... he's actually saying it is genuine. It's not... he's not missing tournaments because of his lack of commitment to England, there is a genuine reason as to why Cole Palmer is not here.

4:46Ian Dennis:Correct. Also, Trent Alexander-Arnold, with those withdrawals, Liv Rimento, we know the other right-backs who are not part of this squad. We will hear from Thomas Tuchel on this in a moment, but I think it's a fascinating point about whether Trent Alexander-Arnold will start this match. Well, when we did the Commentator's View podcast, I think the two of us, we had slightly differing views on this because I think that Alexander-Arnold won't start because I'm going off what Tuchel had said when he named his squad announcement, that it's one thing to get nominated, in his words, it's another thing then to earn your place, to actually then play the actual game.

5:25Ian Dennis:And he talked then about the trust and responsibility of the players who served him well for the majority of that tournament in the summer. Now, obviously, with the withdrawals, there's 15 of this squad who did go to the United States and the nine, including Trent Alexander-Arnold, who are now bringing what he hopes is the new energy. But on that basis, that's why I don't think Alexander-Arnold will start the first game. You would think playing four times in the space of 11 days, there is going to be an opportunity. But I sense that you thought that Alexander-Arnold would start. Yeah, but as we'll hear from Thomas Tuchel shortly, I think he has given us quite a clear indication that in fact it will be Jarrell Kwanzaa.

6:09Ian Dennis:Anyway, so let's hear from him. Thomas Tuchel, the England manager, who I asked, when you take everything into consideration, if England-Spain is the match that he needs now or the match he doesn't need? I think we need because it just gets you out of your comfort zone straight away. We had a long tournament. Everyone acknowledges it. It was difficult, it was hard, like playing in altitude with a red card and in the heat and being together, actually being one of the first teams being in the US and staying all the way. So to be now in another long international break and for the first time in a long two and a half weeks break is very demanding.

6:59But if you want to achieve something in sports, if you want to reach the next level of performance, which we all want to do, you need to get out of your comfort zone. if you play then in a new competition straight away against the reigning world champions that's exactly what brings you out of it and what brings hopefully the very best out of us because we need a complete performance in order to beat Spain.

7:26Ian Dennis:Do you think you have a greater confidence that you will get that performance from the training field into the match situation in a way that kept frustrating you at the World Cup? Yeah, I said it after the Norway game, because I see it came from a good place. It came from a place of being hugely impressed by the way, by the quality and the commitment in training. Being impressed by the glimpses that we showed the second half against the second half against Croatia. 22 minutes against Congo after the last water break. I had evidence, I know, I still have evidence, I know what this group is capable of doing.

8:13So we are looking for that. This is maybe, this is the task and to translate the potential that we have into a 90 minutes match. Is it possible against Spain? I don't know. We will try. They are full of quality, they are full of winning mentality and they are full of confidence. So it is the most difficult one at the moment in world football. But that's the bar that we compete against and I think it's for sure good learning no matter what. Of the players you've got in this squad,

8:54Ian Dennis:is it fair to call Jarrell Kwanzaa the man in possession when we're talking about right back. And I know he's been playing there this season for Leverkusen as well. Yeah, maybe he starts from a 51 % position into this competition with Trent because he was at the World Cup, he was good at the World Cup and he plays regularly now on the position and he's competing with this desire to keep his shirt and Trent is competing in training to take it away, get some minutes and press us. and there are four matches in a short period of time so they are competing for the spot and Jarrell is in a good place and had some very good sessions the last days.

9:36Are you curious to see what the atmosphere will be like, what the crowd will be like at Wembley? Yeah, I'm curious because I feel a lot of excitement towards the team. I feel a lot of excitement from our fans towards the team and towards the match. We have only 15 players with us who were with us in the US. We have 9 players with us who were not there. So I hope they also bring the same level of commitment and we can show the same spirit and energy that took us through the tournament in the US and hopefully get this thing going because it's an advantage that we should absolutely try to maximise playing in Wembley must become an advantage for us.

10:27Ian Dennis:Because you've had a bit of fun with them over the course of the time that you've been in charge. Yes, of course. I complained. Yeah, you did. But it would be so important, won't it, when it comes to the tournament on home ground at Wembley in matches like this. And I just want to make this very, very clear. I am 100 % convinced that when it comes to a tournament and comes to our home tournament, that we will have the advantage from our fans because I experienced it now in the US. I know and have an idea how difficult it was for our fans to get there, to stay there and to be there. And still they were and they created some outstanding moments together with our team.

11:13I know what it can be like and I'm not shy to say that makes a difference because it is just like this. I was complaining in our match against Wales because we were 3-0 up after 15 minutes and the atmosphere was not on that level to push the team. So I said it, I got a lot of stick for it. I totally get it. Let's see what it will be tomorrow. I'm sure we will have fantastic support and decisive support in the Euros and we need it. It would be silly to say that we don't need it. Why wouldn't we use it and why wouldn't we maximise it?

12:10Ian Dennis:It's an authoritarian regime. For the past 15 years, English football has been dominated by Manchester City. They are champions again, but not only that. They've won it four years running, and no one's done that. Ever. Then the Premier League dropped a bombshell. The Premier League has charged Manchester City with more than 100 breaches of its financial rules following a four-year investigation. Somebody turned up at the Etihad Stadium and effectively served papers. Hear the in-depth analysis and explanation with football on trial. The Manchester City Chargers. Listen on BBC Sounds. This is the Football Daily Podcast with John Murray and Ian Dennis.

12:50Ian Dennis:So there we are, Thomas Tuchel, the England manager, Ian Dennis, with me. I think one of the things we're going to be watching, listening out for at Wembley Stadium is how the crowd does react to Thomas Tuchel. I think after what he said on the squad announcement day about how 99 % of people, when they talk to him, talk about Dior Congo, talk about Mexico, and not about his substitutions against Argentina. Whereas, you know, it's probably true that the other side of that can be also correct in that 99 % of people probably also want to know more about those substitutions. Yeah, he used the word curious with you, didn't he, when you asked him about the crowd?

13:35Ian Dennis:Well, I said, will you be curious? Yeah. To see what the crowd is like. Yeah. And then he did say, yes, I will be curious. I'm intrigued. I do think that I'm trying to think of the approach of England as well, that I think I wonder how that will affect the crowd. Because if England are on the back foot, I think the crowd could get frustrated. I'm not thinking that they can go there and play with a handbrake off as they did against France in the third, fourth place playoff against France in Miami. but if they did have a little bit more of a front-footed approach then I think the crowd will go with them.

14:09Ian Dennis:So I think depending on the approach of England I think that will set the tone for how the crowd respond. Right, let's hear from Harry Kane then, the England captain who you've been talking to. Yeah, and I basically said to him that he talked earlier in the week as we'd mentioned to the written press where he talked about the hurt and the pain of losing that World Cup semi-final to Argentina. So I didn't necessarily want to go over that but I did want to hear the England captain's thoughts on the criticism that Thomas Tuchel has received. Yeah, I think it's tough to see. I think whenever your leader, your boss is under fire, yeah, it's never nice, I think, as a player, as a captain.

14:47Ultimately, we know it comes with the job, we know it comes with the territory. He would have known that signing up for the job, that's just part and parcel of being the manager. If you don't get over the line, if you don't win, there's always going to be criticism of the boss or the players or whoever it may come down to. But I think he's reacted well to it. He spoke honestly, openly, as we all have, I think, all the players. It was a tough one to take and I think there was definitely areas that we can improve from the whole summer. It's easy just to think about Argentina, but I think the whole summer in general, there's things we can improve.

15:22A lot of things we've done well as well and positives that we need to continue but ultimately it is part of the part of the job when you're playing for England or managing England at the at the highest level in the World Cups you're going to be under pressure and that's just the reality of it. When you say areas to improve what are those areas? I think still performance-wise like playing I think we have a certain level that we reach maybe in qualification or in training and we haven't quite translated that into games we have a lot of really good traits that get us far in tournaments which is personality and character togetherness mentality quality as well but yeah I don't think when we look back over the summer I don't think there was a full 90 minutes performance that we could say that was the performance I spoke a little bit before the Costa Rica game just before the tournament I thought was our level of just with the ball without the ball intensity a lot of our strengths were showcased in that game but But of course it's easier said than done.

16:21You're playing against the best nations on the biggest stage under the highest pressure. The good thing is that we've got a lot of winning traits that get us to where we've got to. I think the next step for us is just to be able to consistently play better, especially in the bigger matches against the better teams because we definitely have the capabilities of doing it. But you still need to go out there and show that. I think this Nations League campaign now is a good opportunity for us to play some big nations again and hopefully put in some better performances.

16:48Ian Dennis:I spoke to Bakayosaki the other day and he said he believes that England are close to gaining success. I would imagine you would share that belief, but what is that missing ingredient then to get England over the line? Yeah, I think it's just in those biggest moments, still being ourselves. I think the Argentino game was so hard to take because I think we had a mindset of going to win the tournament and win in our way, in our style, and if we lose trying to do that, then we'll take it. but the Argentina game was maybe the first game we tried not to lose the last 30 minutes and we ended up losing anyway and it just stings even more.

17:26So again, when you're under the pressure, when you're under the lights, it's making good decisions in those moments. But always, I think for us now, it's the mentality to go for the win. I've experienced it at Bayern Munich, for example, and you don't fear anyone. You go and be yourself and if a team beats you, you shake the hand after and say, well done. but you have an identity that you keep throughout and I think with England now that's where we need to look. We're very close, we've been very close but ultimately so really we don't need to fear anyone we just need to be ourselves in the biggest moments and hopefully get over the line.

18:02Ian Dennis:Fond memories of the Nations League with the win away in Spain and also your goal at Wembley was a cracking atmosphere against Croatia. That particular tournament came on the back of another defeat in a World Cup semi-final so I just wonder how important is this Nations League to you and the rest of the players? Yeah I think it is important because it's not a new beginning it's a continuation of you know Thomas's reign and us as a squad and what we're trying to achieve and I think if we can you know get a good win tomorrow and have a good group stage get qualified through the group one it allows us to then play bigger games next year and against the best teams but also just gives us momentum you know there was a lot of good things in in the summer and even beating France towards the end although it weren't the most competitive match it's still a big game and and we we played extremely well so yeah it's just to continue those feelings I think over the over the World Cup and the the pre-games you know I think we what did we have 10 10 games or something and we we won eight drew one lost one so you know if you're at club level now it's a fantastic record to have but at international we know it doesn't work like that so it's about continuing those if we can get some good wins over this next period i think it'll work up leading into into the year ahead talking of records you've started the season very well again 152 goals in 154 appearances at bayern is this the best you've ever been in your career in terms of where you're at yeah 100 um i spoke about it over the last year or so but I think the stats speak for themselves but also just the performances and how I'm playing, how I'm feeling.

19:43I think physically just in the best shape I've ever been. Mentally just whether it's on the pitch, off the pitch, just really happy, really going into every game feeling like I've got a chance of scoring or getting on the ball and helping the team and I think just enjoying it. I'm playing with a smile in my face, I love every match I play, every time I'm on the pitch and I think you're seeing that in the performances. So, yeah, right now it's about just extracting that for as long as possible and still try and find little ways to improve and keep pushing the level and last year was incredible and my best season for sure individually and as a team and now it's about trying to, you know, I'll go even one step further and see if I can do more individually and with the team as well.

20:31Ian Dennis:We spoke a number of years ago and I remember you saying that you wanted to emulate Messi and Ronaldo. Do you think with those numbers that you're at that level now? No, I wouldn't say I'm on their level. I think Messi and Ronaldo were two of the greatest ever players to play the game. I think I've been able to do it for the last couple of years and be on a similar level in terms of goals and things like that. obviously they've won the biggest trophies, they've done it for 10-15 years longer and still going now so I wouldn't put myself on their level and I think I'm a completely different player to both of them and many other players out there so I always try and compare myself to my best version or my best season and right now I'm feeling as good as ever but But, yeah, to reach those two, I don't think it's something I'm thinking about.

21:26Ian Dennis:The next 11 days, you could equal Peter Shilton's record of 125 caps. October the 26th, hopefully you'll be named as the Ballon d 'Or winner. Have you thought how special it could all be? No, of course it could be amazing. I mean, first of all, hopefully manage to play the four games this camp and equal the record and an incredible record to reach without a doubt would be an extremely proud moment for me and then that would hopefully lead into to November and being able to to break it in between that like you said there is a Ballon d 'Or to yeah again would be incredible to win you know it's the biggest individual prize there there is and yeah like I touched on a bit earlier It was my best season so far in my career and I achieved a lot with both England and with Bayern Munich.

22:17So, yeah, we'll have to wait and see. There's the possibility of it being a really special couple of months without a doubt. But as we know in life, football doesn't always pan out the way you want. So you have to be prepared for anything and see what happens. I know you're too modest, but then you would be with Ronaldo and Messi. Yeah, I mean, they won it seven times and five times. that's what I mean there's still a long way to go until I can be put in a conversation with those two but it'll be a step in the right direction Well we wish you well Thank you very much

22:47Ian Dennis:So that was my conversation with Harry Kane modest as ever insane numbers that he's produced at Bayern Munich but if he was to win the Ballon d 'Or on the 26th of October and I joke with him there that all of a sudden he would be then on a level with Messi and Ronaldo but that would be some achievement wouldn't it for him But I think in the season that he had, I'm not sure we talked about it enough. The fact that last season he scored 73 goals for club and country, which is astonishing. But I think he's up against stiff opposition. Messi will obviously have a lot of support. And I think Kovic, Kvarets, Keli, if you're talking about exciting footballers, footballers you want to watch, he's very close to the top of the tree at the moment.

23:34Yeah, yeah.

23:35Ian Dennis:It's interesting, isn't it, what you think. There's been a number of reports that I've seen about who's going to replace Harry Kane. But he'll be 34 by the time Euro 2028 comes around. I can still see him leading England's line if he wants to. Because his desire levels, the way he looks after himself, if he's continuing to score goals at Bayern Munich, it's imminent that he's going to sign a new contract with a German team as well. So he's going to continue to play at the top level. so I can't see anybody usurping Harry Kane as England's number nine for at least the next 18 months, two years and beyond.

24:10Ian Dennis:As for the Spain team, it's going to be very similar, isn't it, to the team that actually we witnessed win the World Cup in New Jersey, what did I say, 69 days ago? I was struck by what Thomas Tuchel said to you that he said that he felt that France were the best team in the World Cup. I disagree with that. I think Spain were the best team at the World Cup and not only I think they proved that by winning it but in terms of how they defended they restricted opponents to few shots on target during the whole tournament so I actually think that yes England beat France in the third fourth place playoff game but Kaio Saka has already said that was when the pressure was off we just went out there and just went to enjoy it there will be pressure on England at Wembley they've got to they've got to get off to a positive start the top two qualify for the quarterfinals in this Nations League group.

25:00Ian Dennis:So I think that there won't be that ability to be as carefree as they were against France. Well, Rodri, the World Cup winning captain, is due to speak at Wembley late on Friday night. So look out for the quotes from that on the BBC Sport website from the former Manchester City midfielder. So it should be very interesting to hear what he says with the story that has emerged today about the Premier League charges against Manchester City. But that is it. As I say, 5 Live is the place to be and the place to listen to the match commentary on England-Spain, live from Wembley on Saturday night, 7.45 kick-off.

25:36Ian Dennis:And also look out on BBC Sounds as well for that special Football Daily, which will react to today's Manchester City news with Mark Chapman.

25:58Ian Dennis:For the past 15 years, English football has been dominated by Manchester City. They are champions again, but not only that, they've won it four years running, and no one's done that, ever. Then the Premier League dropped a bombshell. The Premier League has charged Manchester City with more than 100 breaches of its financial rules following a four-year investigation. Somebody turned up at the Etihad Stadium and effectively served papers. Hear the in-depth analysis and explanation with football on trial. The Manchester City Chargers. Listen on BBC Sounds. It felt like everything I believed in was suddenly collapsing.

26:37This is the story of an Islamic boarding school in Indonesia with a dark secret. Of the school's head teacher. This was someone I respected above anyone else. And the investigation led by students he's trying to silence. If this is leaked to the media, I'll be destroyed. This is World of Secrets, catching my teacher. Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app, or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.