UCL Debrief: Mayhem in Munich as PSG power into the final

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:29CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that. Bull spend. Now you can invest in what looks good to your CFO. LinkedIn ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks. You'll reach the right buyers because you can target by company, industry, job title, and more. So cut the bull spend. Advertise on LinkedIn. The network that works for you. Spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a 250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com slash broadcast. That's linkedin.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. Today's episode is sponsored by Smart Travel, a podcast from NerdWallet.

1:14You know that one friend who always finds the best travel deals, picks the right credit cards, and somehow ends up in first class for the price of coach? Smart Travel is like that friend, but in podcast form. NerdWallet's Travel journalists sort out what's worth paying for, from lounge access to travel advisors to hotel loyalty programmes. Make your travel dollars work harder. Follow Smart Travel on your favourite podcast app. On the Football Daily Podcast, Champions League Debrief. Listen on BBC Sounds. It's been another thrilling European night. Paris Saint-Germain beating Bayern Munich 6-5 on aggregate, one all on the night.

1:55It means it's Arsenal. against Paris Saint-Germain in the Champions League final. What an occasion that will be live on 5 Live in Budapest. Also a big night in the WSL. Manchester City are champions. A lot more on that to come, but let's head straight to Munich. You can hear the atmosphere, the Bayern Munich players on the pitch at the moment, taking the applause from their fans, but they were beaten tonight. So much to get into. I'm joined by a plethora of guests. Chris Sutton is here and the stars of the EuroLeague's podcast as well. One of them will be happy, ESPN's Julian Lerons. One of them disappointed, Raphael Honigstein, the European football expert.

2:32Commentator Conor McNamara is with us as well. And Conor, we'll start with you. Tell us the story of the game. Well, John, the nine-goal thriller in the first leg at Paris a week ago. And this second leg picked up exactly where things were left off. An early goal tonight, scored by Ousmane Dembele. how important that proved to be set up by the brilliant Cavallad Scalia it established a two-goal lead after two minutes and 19 seconds two nil up on aggregate, two goals up on aggregate it was a deficit that Bayern Munich were not going to be able to narrow they did try, they threw everything at it Paris Saint-Germain defended so impressively the work rate was there they tried their luck at occasion but Bayern's lauded attack which had been scoring goals for fun all season really struggled to get things going right at the very depth four minutes into stoppages Harry Kane did pull one goal back it means that Kane has scored in six consecutive knockout stage appearances he's only the second player to ever do that in the Champions League after Cristiano Ronaldo Kane's personal 14th goal in the Champions League this season but not enough and Paris Saint-Germain celebrate they have Arsenal in their sights Luis Enrique's team now dreaming of winning this Champions League for a second year in a row.

3:49Chris Sutton, we praise the attacks in the first leg, that amazing first leg, but what about the defensive effort from Paris Saint-Germain? So close to keeping a clean sheet against this Bayern Munich team.

4:02Chris Sutton:Absolutely, and for them to come to the Allianz and Bayern Munich have been so strong this season at home and to really nullify them and quieten the Bayern attack. Alize didn't have a good game, neither did Luis Diaz, but that was a credit to the way that PSG defended. Marquinhos and Pacho were absolutely outstanding. Harry Kane had half a yard inside the box with a minute to go and finished, brilliant finish, devastating finish, but it was too little, too late. And, you know, we associate PSG with, you know, the beautiful game and playing with plenty of flair. This was a different type of display and they really, really impressed.

4:44Julien Lerons and Raphael Honigstein are with us as well shall I start with the happier one or the more disappointed one I think I'll start with Jules Paris Hesse may have done it again Jules and as Chris was saying a different type of performance tonight

4:57Julien Laurens:yeah really incredible there was still a lot of man-man marking everywhere on the pitch we saw that but the resilience they show the character defensively I agree on Pacho I mean I know he's a little bit short on the Kane goal but after 93 minutes of covering everything and tackling everything and and just being perfect almost perfect he won all his jewels he won you know one of two in the air but on the floor he was everywhere incredible and and i just think this is something that this team didn't have 18 months ago remember the defeat at newcastle for example when they played in in a 4-2-4 formation they were all over the place defensively and even even on top of the the style when they have the ball and what they can do with the ball in terms of keeping it or playing in transition all of that that they have now in the armory they've added this kind of resilience and this ability to defend a bit deeper and to be fair the goal came so early but if you remember the Liverpool second leg last season if you remember the Chelsea game this season this is what they do they know that at times teams will come out like Bayern did today and to be fair I didn't expect Bayern to come out like this so early in the game, they didn't have to.

6:09Julien Laurens:And to be fair, that created their own downfall on that first goal because they didn't have to be that high so early. A simple one-two between Vaz, Kelia and Ruiz, and then the ball is across the goal for Dembele, who is never going to miss that. So that played certainly into PSG's game plan because after that, they could defend a bit deeper and hit Bayern on the counter, which they did really well and could easily have scored a second goal. So Rafa, commiserations. why do you think it didn't click for the amazing Bayern Munich front three? Are you praising the Paris Saint-Germain defence or was there something missing today from the likes of Harry Kane?

6:46I mean, first of all, you have to praise the PSG defence. Paco won man of the match and I think he was well-deserved. Not a player that I think you would have bet your house on before the game that he was going to be the outstanding performer, but he was. But it's always a case of, you know, one thing leading to another. because PSG defended so well, Bayern never really created the same kind of regular, real high-class chances that they used to. And as a result, PSG kind of never let them have that momentum. There were moments in the first half when you feel if Bayern score here, maybe the game is turning, but Bayern didn't score, PSG defended, and the same thing in the second half, and Bayern didn't really create too many clear-cut chances.

7:29And of course you can look at performances of Olyse and Luis Diaz and said by their standards they didn't have a great game. But I think overall you have to say that PSU just defended magnificently and perhaps should have scored even one more goal. They were just that little bit better all over the pitch today and that's why they deserve finalists. It all seems set up for Bayern Munich this season, didn't it, Rafa? The way they were playing, incredible going forward, wrapping up the Bundesliga title very early. There were comparisons made to the Pet Guardiola Bayern Munich team. This will be a huge disappointment for the fans.

8:03I think they thought this was their year, didn't they? Yeah, they did. And I think that came from the players. The players had that confidence that, you know, whatever matters, we will still score. And today, for the first time, maybe in the Champions League, the season, with the exception of the Arsenal game, I would say, that confidence wasn't quite there because they struggled. They really struggled to create chances. They couldn't really get behind PSG. PSG, of course, with the confidence of the early goal, didn't have to press high, could sit back, sometimes dropped in a deep block. I think they only had 38 % possession, but they really suited them today.

8:39They didn't have to do anything. They played so well on the counter. And Bayern couldn't quite get those rotations going, couldn't quite win those little moments where things change. And that's why PSG are through and Bayern aren't. But look, in a competition like the Champions League, I think you can't afford to have an off night. And by Bayern standards, they had an off night today. and PSG are not the sort of team that will let you get away if you maybe get Sporting or Atletico Madrid on the way to the final. It's a different story, but not against this PSG team. Let's hear from inside the Bayern camp.

9:17Here's Vincent Kompany. I thought in many ways we disrupted a lot of the pressings normally that they're able to do. We arrived in a lot of very, very good positions, so one-on-one against the full-backs. We even beat the fullbacks quite a lot of times. So we were in a lot of positions where on another day we can make the difference. But, you know, there's a couple of scenes that I have, especially in the first half where Moussa is two or three times in a really dangerous spot and the shot is maybe not as menacing or as clean as it should be. A couple of times, Lucho gets past his man, Micah gets past his man.

9:55And then I have to go back and give a lot of credit to PSG as well. I thought the defenders defended the crosses fantastic. Every single time we beat the fullback, the centre-backs made the right decision on which cross they should prioritise. So it was really difficult for us to put the ball between the goalkeeper and the centre-backs. It was really difficult for us to play the cut-backs successfully because the midfielders were always there. It was really difficult for us to play around the box because the midfielders were putting pressure. But if you've seen PSG this season, I have to revert the question, then it's only about result because it's also not, I'm sure, the way that Piaget will play most of his games or any of his games, the way that the game went today.

10:38But they're a top team and details, right? Big thing for me, don't believe the hype, don't believe the drama. There was a controversial moment in the first half which we have to talk about, a handball. We all love the handball law. I think Jules and Rafa are going to tell us they knew all about this law, but I certainly didn't. I think Chris was saying earlier in the programme that he didn't as well. So what happened is that Vettinia rifles a clearance against his teammate, João Neves. Clear hand ball, his arm is away from his body. Everyone thinks a penalty is going to be given. No penalty is given.

11:13They check it on VAR. No penalty is given again. So let's talk to the BBC's Football Issues correspondent, Dale Johnson. I'm sure your phone has been buzzing, Dale, since that incident. You can explain, Dale, why was that not given as a penalty to Bayern Munich? Yeah, so it's basically a little-known exemption in the handball law, which means that if a teammate kicks it against you unexpectedly and hits you on the arm, then you should not be expected to give away a penalty or a free kick wherever it is on the pitch. And the logic behind that is that because you're not expecting it, you can't be trying to get any type of advantage out of it.

11:50And it's the same that if you kick or you head the ball against your own arm, that shouldn't be handball anyway. So that's why the referee didn't give it and that's what the lawmakers intend the interpretation to be. Chris, what do you make of that? Have you ever heard of that before? And is that more confusion in this handball law, which seems to confuse every football fan?

12:09Chris Sutton:Yeah, well, Harry Kane was certainly having a word with the referee at half time. Yeah, it just seems quite a dangerous precedent to set, really. I just looked at the position of his arm. It was up and out and away. And I understand Dale's interpretation, but that's quite a dangerous interpretation, to use the word unexpected in there. How do you prove that? It's a dangerous precedent to set where players could just raise their arm when a teammate crosses the ball and says, well, I didn't expect this, how can you award a penalty?

12:48Julien Laurens:I think it's a great rule. I absolutely love this rule. I think it's a great rule. It should never be a penalty. Seriously, Jules, did you know about this rule? Did you and Rafa know about this? No, because we had it in Ligue 1 not that long ago, so that's why I knew it.

13:02Chris Sutton:To that extent? Something similar, yeah.

13:05Julien Laurens:But that high as arm. It was more, at the time, it was not so much high, but the arm was wide, but the ball was going for a throw, and they explained the rule there. I didn't know it until a few weeks ago, but so then I knew it today. I think there's too many handball penalties anyway, so I support this rule in principle, even though today it didn't help Bayern. And Bayern, of course, weren't helped by the handball decision in the first leg. But then arguably they had the rub of the green against Real Madrid with a refereeing decision. So I don't think it's down to that necessarily, but when the margins are small and you need a bit of luck, as Bayern did, because they were on the better side, they didn't get it, And that was another reason why PSG are going to Budapest and Bayern are not.

13:49Yeah, I think most people agree with you, Rafa. They actually don't mind this rule. But, Dale, doesn't it add a bit more confusion, this kind of exemption? It just muddies the waters again, doesn't it, about what is a handball and what isn't? There are several exemptions and several sub-exemptions, as we've seen recently in the games last week, where two players considered handball penalties where there was a deflection off the body. And we've been told previously, our people understand that deflections mean there can't be a penalty. But then there's a sub clause that says if it's only a slight defection, then it can be a penalty.

14:20So this is just another example of this really complicated handball law where the general fan can't really expect to keep up with these things that are in guidance and aren't even written in the laws if someone were to go and look it up.

14:33Chris Sutton:All these sub laws and everything though, somebody watching the game on the television tonight would have just been totally baffled by that decision. I mean, it just looked a penalty. And you can have as many sub-laws, but there's also the sort of fairness element, and people would look at that and just think that Bayern Munich were really hard done by in that moment. It's what's fair, it's what's reasonable, it's what's right, it's what's wrong. And, you know, to sort of worm the way out of a situation like that, it doesn't feel right, that doesn't. Dale, thank you so much for joining us. There'll be a lot more from Dale Johnson, the BBC Football Issues correspondent on the BBC Sport website, talking about that handball incident.

15:20But let's get back to the game. Kovicja Kravatskalija, Jules, what more can we say about him? The first player to score or assist in seven consecutive knockout stage appearances in the same Champions League campaign. And the goal just summed up his quality yet again.

15:34Julien Laurens:Yeah, again, I mean, if you give him that kind of space as well, it's going to make you pay for it. and I think we talked about it with Robbo and Dano before maybe it was the Liverpool game or the Chelsea game. I can't remember if it was the quarterfinal or the last 16. And we talked about him because, and we said that night, the most amazing thing with him, he's a fantastic player and we can discuss why no English clubs came for him when PSG did it. PSG were the only one the summer before they signed him and then in January when they did sign him. But also he's a guy for big games and big moments.

16:07Julien Laurens:And I know we say big games belong to big players, all of that. It's not always true. But in this case, there are games in Ligue 1 where it looks like it's his twin brother, not him on the pitch, because he can't really be bothered. And there's games like tonight or in the first leg, for example. But same against Chelsea, against Liverpool, where he would just set the pitch on fire. And that's incredible. I think in terms of dribblers, really, and on the left-hand side, because obviously on the right you've got Alise, you've got Alamin. On the left hand side, I don't think there's, right now, a better player than him in the world.

16:43Julien Laurens:And when you think about Nuno Mendes behind him, you don't even have to look at who is the midfielder on the left hand side for PSG, but just in terms of left back, left winger, kind of combination and partnership, again, I don't think there's any better than Nuno Mendes and Vález-Cállar.

17:09Welcome to the Wayne Rudy Show. We're joined by Wayne Rudy. We are joined by the actor James Nelson-Jobs. Is that him, lad? Is that him? We've got to get you in season, mate. We've got to do it. Bruno, this is the first interview I've ever done.

17:25Julien Laurens:Very nice to be here with you. I played against you. I got the shirt off you, but you don't know it. I asked Juan to get it for me. Paddy, thank you so much for being with us today. I know I'm going to win the belts. That's in my destiny. It was just, that wasn't my time. The Wayne Rooney Show. Watch your night, player. Listen on BBC Sound.

18:06No purchase necessary. Visit Moto.us for more details. Moto Casino. America's Social Casino. If your best finance people are doing expense reports, chasing receipts, or spending time on month-end clothes, it's time to get Brex AF, a gentic finance that eliminates that work before it starts. Learn more at brex.com slash AF. On the Football Daily Podcast Champions League Debrief Listen on BBC Sounds So now it's Arsenal who have to deal with Kavitsha Kravoskaya in the Champions League final, we now know Arsenal's opponents in that final, 30th of May in Budapest Chris, is this the perfect clash of styles?

18:51Defence the best aspect of Arsenal's game and despite their defensive performance against Bayern Munich attack the best aspect of Paris Saint-Germain man's game it seems so well set up this final yeah yeah you know it does it's interesting the

19:04Chris Sutton:way people have viewed Arsenal in in recent weeks and you know you people you know thought the wheels were coming off but they are a very capable team probably the best team out of possession in Europe Arsenal and the PSG showed that they can defend as well tonight but no it's a fascinating final there is the the clash of styles but yeah I think Arsenal have a real chance and I think it's The 50-50 game. I know PSG are the champions of Europe. A brilliant last season, the way they blew Inter away in the final. Showed their resilience this evening. But Arsenal are capable on their day. That's interesting you say 50-50 game.

19:41I'll go to duels in a moment, but let's get the neutrals point of view from Rafa first of all. Are you seeing it's 50-50? I think I agree with Chris, it's 50-50. But you look at social media, you listen to a lot of pundits. They're picking out Paris Saint-Germain as favourites in this final. Yeah, they are clear favourites. Clear favourites. Whether that translates into a big scoreline is another story. With the exception of last year at this very ground, big favourites don't always win big, but I think PSG are just, in terms of their overall balance, a little bit ahead of Arsenal in all areas.

20:16I mean, I'm thinking even at this very best, arguably this very best game, Jokeres is still so far behind what this team has. And the balance they have at the back, the midfield, the way that they can change the game, I just think they're a better side.

20:35Chris Sutton:I agree with you in all that. But then Arsenal, when you think about set plays, you think about long throws, corners, that's where Arsenal, I think, can really cause PSG all sorts of problems. Jules, where do you stand on this? I mean, Rafa is saying clear favourites.

20:54Julien Laurens:I don't know if... I think if there's one team that can do to PSG what PSG did to Bayern tonight, it's Arsenal. I think they are the master at controlling games, tempos, making the game slow if they want it slow. I think they have all of that. They are, for me, the best team out of possession in the world. Better than the Bayern, better than the PSG, better than anybody else you want. When they don't have the ball, they're so hard to break down. that's why they are the best defence in the Champions League for example that's why they still haven't lost in the Champions League they're the only team so I think that is special on a one game not over two legs but over one game that's huge to have I do think that the experience from last season for this PSG team is huge compared to a team like Arsenal where a lot of those players have never played in a final of that kind of calibre and beating Arsenal last season in the semi-final as well is that a big psychological aspect?

21:50Julien Laurens:They were a bit fortunate weren't they? Yeah like Donnarumma made two huge saves in that second leg at the Paris des Princes remember the one on Haude Garde early on for example even against Martinelli and Trossard in the first leg at the Emirates too so I think there might be something also from an Arsenal point of view of wanting a revenge for that semi-final where they felt they were very close probably even the better side over the two legs so there will be a lot of that, it will be an amazing final and yeah there's a bit of contrast in style sure, although PSG showed you today that they can be very adaptable as well and very versatile in the way they play if they have to, which I don't think Arsenal have in the other way around, you know Arsenal can't play with the ball like PSG, however PSG can be very resilient defensively like Arsenal can be so I think it'd be very interesting, let's just hope by then PSG haven't won the title yet but a win this weekend for example could do pretty much Arsenal will probably have to fight until the end which again in terms of fitness might have to play a part And Rafa, on Arsenal Bukayo Saka, he's back to form now he's fantastic against Atletico Madrid fantastic against Fulham surely that's a big fear for Paris Saint-Germain the fact that Saka has returned to close to his best now just at the right time ahead of this final I thought he looked a little bit short still yesterday.