UCL Debrief: Penalty controversy as Arsenal draw at Atletico

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1:46So it finished in Madrid. Atletico won, Arsenal won. Penalties for both sides. Penalties overturned as well a good goalkeeping display from David Raya maybe John Murray didn't have didn't have the excitement and the goals of last night but it had storylines no not the thrills and spills and goals of PSG against Bayern but instead we had fierce intensity followed by following a remarkable pre-match mass cascade of toilet roll streamers from the stands Both goals came from penalties. And another one, given Arsenal's way, was overturned by VAR. Victor Jokerez won and scored the first penalty just before halftime.

2:35Atleti equalised ten minutes into the second half after another of those contentious UEFA handball penalty awards. This one going against Ben White and scored by Julian Alvarez. Atleti really stepped it up then. Griezmann had a shot that struck the crossbar, then volleyed wide. there were chances for Adamola Lukman. He really should have scored. And then that third penalty award, when Hansko, who conceded the earlier penalty, stepped in on Eza, it looked like it would be a lifeline for Arsenal and a chance for them to take a lead into the second leg. Instead, VAR intervened and decided that it was no foul by Hansko on Aberici Eza.

3:18And so there we are, 1-1, and I think we're expecting more of the same in the second leg in London next Tuesday. Chris Lusson, your view?

3:30Chris Sutton:You know, people can talk about the Arsenal performance. Were they good enough in the final third? Probably not. Again, I thought I'd let they were excellent in the second half and deserved something out of the game. But having said all that, I think that there were two shocking decisions which went against Arsenal. I didn't think it was a handball by Ben White because the ball deflected off his shin first and his arm is out a little bit. But the fact is the ball deflected off his shin first. I think everybody thought because of that a penalty shouldn't have been awarded. And hands go as clumsy as you like, steps on part of Ezra's foot.

4:10Chris Sutton:And they don't really protest. I always think that's the biggest tell from players. You know, they certainly protested against the award of the Jokeres penalty really vehemently and got in the referee's face, but not so with that one. And then the referee goes to the monitor and you sort of know what's going to happen. But I would have liked to see the referee be stronger in that moment. He gave it in real time. He thought it was a foul. And, you know, from everything which I've seen on the monitor, it looked like there was contact on Ezra's foot. so the penalty should have been awarded and Arsenal should be going back to the Emirates in a much stronger position.

4:55Rory, how are you dealing with the penalties on match the day later? We've had a robust debate. Nadam wasn't surprised that the Eze one was overturned. He spotted that there wasn't enough contact and also he kind of highlighted that If you look at Eze's left leg, it kind of swings around to kind of make sure that everyone sees that he's been kicked. I'm surprised that one was overturned. I think the first one, the Atletico one, that's the UEFA handball, which weirdly kind of directly contravenes IFAB's actual guidance on handball, but those are given in the Champions League. I agree they're soft, but in a way, given that we saw a very similar one for PSG last...

5:42Doesn't make it right. Yeah, for PSG last night. Doesn't make it right, but I suppose, I mean, there would have been a real controversy had PSG got that one last night and Atleti not got the one tonight. That would have maybe been worse.

5:54Chris Sutton:So you carry on awarding staff decisions, do you? Because it happened the night before. I think in that case, you maybe want a little bit of consistency. But Chris, I basically agree with you. I don't think either of the handball ones should have been a penalty. And I actually thought all three tonight were relatively soft, including the one that wasn't given. I don't think people want that kind of consistency, do they? I think they'd rather see consistency of not giving those handballs. Who'd like a chat about the... Or who'd like the IFAB rule? Go on. So a handball should not be awarded if the player heads, kicks or plays the ball with another part of their body and it then hits their own hand arm.

6:41but the key word there is plays so therefore if it deflects you haven't played it and that's why it's given yeah and the guidance seems to be that if it deflects and your arm is outstretched from your body then it's still handball but i've got to admit that feels like a very semantic difference and if to be honest i mean i agree with john and chris to a large extent it it just feels as though and this isn't just uefa in this case it is uefa but it's not just uefa officials are kind of getting themselves into really complicated areas they don't really need to be in. I don't see why you have to distinguish the difference.

7:16If it deflects onto someone's hand, it shouldn't be a penalty. That seems relatively obvious. Well, I think Alan Shearer said it on commentary last night for the Paris Saint-Germain one, and John, Jamie Carrick has said it this evening. The Champions League is the best football by a mile, but the penalty decisions for handball are a stain on the competition. and it's interesting because I actually went to a referees briefing when we were at the the Nations League for earlier this year and Roberto Rossetti who's the head of referees gave us a little a part of that briefing was on hand balls and you know they are adamant that that they are nailing it with hand balls and you know they showed us a series of decisions which I have to say I'm sitting in the room thinking I'm not sure about that and he's definitive saying that's a handball that's a penalty in Champions League you wait for matches that will be given as a penalty As far as the game is concerned Rory I'll come to you first because you're going to have to go for the TV bit shortly Arsenal would have taken that pre-kick off wouldn't they?

8:24Yeah it's a good result I mean obviously we're all of an age now aren't we where there's part of our brains has to remember that away goals don't count anymore. But I think getting away from Madrid with a draw is a good result. And OK, they could have had the penalty later on and they'll feel aggrieved that they didn't. But a one-all draw going back to London, they will now rightly be regarded as favourites to go through. So I think Arteta will be pleased if maybe a touch frustrated that it isn't an actual advantage. Chris?

8:59Chris Sutton:Yeah, I understand what Rory's saying, but, you know, sitting here in the stadium tonight, you spoke about it in commentary, the Atleti fans were waiting for a moment to really get fired up and behind their team, and the award of the penalty just changes everything. So while on the face of it, it's, you know, it's an OK result. I mean, if you're an Arsenal player sitting in that dressing room, Mikel Arteta will come out, And, you know, I suspect he will be so angry because they've come so far this season and they would have just liked to be in a position where they could go back to the Emirates, you know, have a, you know, take a lead and just try and try and have an end to the season, which is more comfortable.

9:44Chris Sutton:But now the game next Tuesday is going to be so highly pressurized and, you know, the atmosphere in the stadium is going to be so, so intense because of what's at stake. you'd make Arsenal favourites but the way Atleti performed in the second half, I mean, you know they showed their quality and had Luckman been more clinical I mean that was a big, big chance a player at this level shouldn't be missing that chance you can say, well, Rea got down and made the save but he should never have been allowed to allow to make a save in that moment. So that's another match for Arsenal where they've not scored more than one goal so that's now eight matches in a row that they've not scored more than one goal in the match.

10:25But I think also significantly tonight, we want to hear what the news is with Alvarez because that would be a significant blow for Atletico Madrid if he's out and injured for the second leg. I sort of, Rory, finally, I go a little bit the other way from Chris on what it will be like next Tuesday. I think the atmosphere there will be very different to how it would be for a league game. And I think the atmosphere at the Emirates might be akin maybe not with a toilet roll hitting John Murray on the head but I think it might be akin to how it was there tonight at the start and that's a high bar but yeah I agree I mean different but I still think fired up would be my description of it maybe next week rather than nervous yeah I think there's a difference between how Arsenal fans are kind of approaching the Champions League and how they're approaching the Premier League the Premier League feels intensely stressful for them whereas I still think there's an element of pleasurable adventure about the Champions League the Premier League, we spoke to Leith before the game the Premier League is kind of what they yearn for it 22 years on and that's kind of occupying their thoughts every game feels so tense and so fraught whereas I think the Champions League because it represents a break because it is a little bit different because it doesn't feel quite so kind of it doesn't feel as though they might be facing a future in which they think they have thrown it away it feels much more likely to generate the sort of atmosphere that we saw, to be honest, against PSG last year, where the Emirates was deafening and was a cauldron.

11:57And I suspect it'll be the same against Athletic.

12:00Chris Sutton:It will be before kick-off, won't it? It'll be before kick-off, and then the game will kick off and Arsenal fans will be mightily nervous. But I'll let you go, Rory. Thank you, because you've got the highlights. it's a completely different competition though, Chris it's not the same it doesn't matter it does it's about the journey and it's about what is at stake for Arsenal they are I know everybody's kicking them at this moment in time but they have the possibility of winning a Champions League which they've never done before and they have the possibility of winning the Premier League and the fact that it's won all now and they go back to the Emirates.

12:45Chris Sutton:It will be raucous before kickoff, but there will be the same nervousness because of what's at stake. It's a huge game and the expectation will be on Arsenal to win because they're playing at home. Aside, they've already beaten 4-0 in the Champions League this season and that will bring its own pressures, especially as John spoke about. This isn't a free-scoring Arsenal team and Atleti showed that they are a very capable team in the second half of the season. Right, let's hear from Mikael Arteta. What I'm incredibly fuming with is how the hell the penalty on Epps gets overturned in the manner that happened when it's not a clear and obvious error.

13:26Chris Sutton:And this changes the course of the game and at this level, I'm sorry, but this cannot happen. Have you had any explanation on that? No, there's a very clear explanation. The decision and what happens for a period of time and the referee has to watch it 13 times. It's more clear than that. I think it's impossible. We are all fuming about it. We need to apply the rules. The same thing that I'm saying, that they apply the rules on Ben White's penalty, that is difficult to accept, but it is a penalty with a handbook and what they say at the beginning of the season. Epps is a clear and very obvious penalty.

14:00Chris Sutton:That's it. When you have fought so hard for nine months to be in this position, I mean, that's another goal that changed completely the course of the time. and it cannot happen. I'm sorry. We put so much on it. So, so, so much on it. This cannot happen. I totally agree. I think Arsenal have been absolutely robbed this evening with that one, with the award of the penalty at the other end and people can argue the merits, but everybody watching the game tonight, you talk about Arsenal's display and what they lacked and what they didn't do, but Arsenal would be in an unbelievable position going into the tie at the Emirates next week.

14:38Chris Sutton:And now they have a lot of work to do. And I think that that's unfair on them. You know, I really, really do. They feel hard done by. They have been hard done by. David Reyes showed his value, didn't he, tonight? Yeah, I think he did. I think the save early on was excellent from Alvarez. The one, I mean, look, the more I've seen that, I thought it went to his left-hand side. Lookman actually hits it straight at him. But he's a top-quality goalkeeper. He's good with the ball at his feet. And he had another big evening. But that's the norm for David Wright. Just out of interest, Arsenal have kept clean sheets in 17 of their last 23 home European matches.

15:26And also, at home, in the European competitions, they have lost one of their last 24. Mind you, it might finish as a draw and go to penalties. Well, you gave with one hand there and then took away with the other, didn't you, very much? Jokeres has been talking... That's my thing. It is, balanced. Jokeres has been speaking to TNT. He says, I think in the first half we controlled had good opportunities to score in the second. They started much better. They managed to get a goal eventually. overall tough game, tough place to come but it's only half time on the Eza penalty he said I don't know why they overturned it it looks like contact but it's their decision we know when we play at home with our fans it will be different for sure we have to be at our best and it will be a good game at home it was not very easy to regain the momentum we had in the first half towards the end we got it back but it was a tough second half from an Atletico Madrid point of view Chris that Luckman should really, really have done better with one or two of his chances, shouldn't he?

16:34I mean, that was where they could have had the lead this evening.

16:38Chris Sutton:Yeah, I mean, the first chance he had left-hand side of the box, he went for power and hit it straight at David Wright. He should find that far corner, but he went for power. I understand that he's put his laces through. He's a right-footed player. the big chance was where he got across Ben White and then he shifted it onto his left foot and I mean a professional player shouldn't miss an opportunity like that I know Declan Rice was running back and put him under pressure but he should be able to do what he wants in that situation just find the corner and David Rye was sharp and got down and made the save but he should not in that situation have been allowed to get anywhere near that.

17:25Chris Sutton:That was the biggest chance of the game. And I know Griezmann hit the bar as well. Atleti were a different team in the second half. And they did. They played with a ferocity in the second half, which wasn't quite there in the first half. The second half flew by. And it was a much better, I think, spectacle and game to watch in the second half. And that's why Arsenal fans watching this game tonight, I sense they'll be nervy because they were very good in the second half. And they've been to Barcelona and won there, so they're not going to necessarily fear going to the Emirates. Interestingly, last time they played each other in a semi-final, which was the Europa League in 2018, first leg finished 1-1, that was in London, and then the second leg finished 1-0 to the home team here.

18:16right have you got a negative to balance that out I mean or are you just giving with one hand on this occasion yeah by half past ten I'll give you one I'll give you one back but the surprising thing from just that Atletico Madrid perspective there Chris is that is that they waited until the second half to as you say to fire on all cylinders a bit more you'd have thought given how it was at the start of the game they would have come out firing.

18:48Chris Sutton:Yeah, they did for the first five, ten minutes, didn't they? But then credit to Arsenal that they got control of the game. But it was all mainly side to side. There was the Maduecki effort where he came in from the right-hand side and got a shot off. The one frustration I played centre-forward myself is... Did you? Six foot, however big, however big, many positions, Mark. Victor Jokoris, you know, he's six foot two, six foot three, whatever he is. He's a big guy and they have the ball in wide areas and they neglect to cross the ball in. And I don't quite understand that. I know what Alan Shearer would say about it.

19:31Chris Sutton:He'd use stronger words and I don't quite understand it. But I don't understand why you have that type of centre forward and you don't try and play to his strengths. He's not the cleverest player. He's a grafter. He's a channel runner. He took his penalty brilliantly. But, you know, give him a chance. This isn't a free-scoring Arsenal team, but they don't help themselves when they have opportunities. I mean, certainly on the left-hand side, a couple of opportunities, and they could put the ball in, and they ended up on one occasion going all the way back to David. I just don't understand that.

20:05Chris Sutton:You need to score a goal. You can score from crosses. Do you think he doesn't have the presence within the squad at the moment to be that demanding? You know, if they'd brought in a£100 million striker, for example, who then went, you've brought me in, this is how you play to my strengths. Do you think that would be easier for that hypothetical signing? Do you think Jokeres, you know, let's be honest, Shearer's been open about, it wasn't just words sometimes, he'd pin the odd one up against the dressing room wall and say, put that ball in earlier. But do you think in his first season and finding his way, he maybe doesn't have that presence to do that?

20:53Chris Sutton:I think that's a really interesting point. I mean, you know, you listen to him speak. He seems like he's a lovely bloke, doesn't he? But you've got to have that ruthlessness. And the fact that people have questioned him. He's the Arsenal centre forward. He was the guy who was going to make the difference. and he's actually done all right this season. But if you want to score a goal, you know, and you're a big physical striker, and, you know, he is a bit more than that. You know, he is a good finisher. But, you know, you have to get chances. And it doesn't help when you have balls in good crossing areas and people aren't prepared to take a chance and put the ball in.

21:38Chris Sutton:And I understand principles of play. And, you know, if something isn't on, come out, and you're trying to probe at times. But you can score from crosses. You know, it is allowed. And if you have that type of striker, then why not throw the ball in? If you have, you know, a small diminutive striker, then it's maybe not the smartest thing to do. But, you know, you have that option. You have that tool in the middle who can, you know, who can, you know, head the ball pretty well. And they don't throw it in. Were you ever described as the tool in the middle? I realise what I said there. That's a good point.

22:16Chris Sutton:Yeah, often. And worse.

22:22BBC Radio 5 Live. Patrick Kielsey. Stumble in your way into Saturday mornings with great guests. Good morning, Jimmy Nesbitt. Good morning, the party. You're terrible. Kids taking down commentators. You've wiped the floor with our commentator key. And how does it feel? It feels nice. Football chants from the gods.

22:46The less said about the host, the better. Patrick Kilty. Saturdays from nine. Listen on BBC Sounds. On the Football Daily Podcast. Champions League Debrief. With Mark Chapman. Tomorrow night, Aston Villa and Nottingham Forest in a big European semi-final with two-time European cut-winner Gary Burtles, part of our commentary team at the City Ground. He joins us now. Some special memories from the past, Gary. Absolutely, yeah. It's many years ago, but it seems like only yesterday. And yeah, I agree with what you were saying about balls being put in early. You know, as a striker, you're desperate for that.

23:26And I was lucky enough to play for the genius that was called John Robertson. And I had Martin O 'Neill on the other side. And the ball was put in quickly. Defenders hate that more than anything. And Forrest has been doing that just lately. Morgan Gibbs-White got a hat-trick the other week, a great header. Yates came on and put a great ball across for him. So, Forrest, before then, they were checking back. There's nothing worse for a striker than checking back because a striker then has to come out, make another run, and it's so frustrating when you see that. Just on the attacking points with Forrest, we were talking to Andy Reid earlier as well.

24:04Do you think Vito Pereira will be brave tomorrow? And I mean brave in the sense of continuing what he did with the second half against Burnley and then the last game as well with that at Sunderland, with the sort of two up front and Gibbs White pushed a bit wider? Why not? He's scored nine goals in two games. It just confuses the opposition because nobody's used to seeing two up front anymore. I think Forest tried it once last season. It didn't quite come off, A, when he was up there with Chris Wood, I think. But Jesus offers you a little bit more. He'll go in the channels. He'll go beyond people.

24:42He's honest. He'll hold the ball up. Chris Wood is one of the most honest players out there. His work rate is terrific. And I think defenders find it a little bit difficult to comprehend that they've got to mark two central players. We've got Morgan Gibbs-White on the left-hand side, who's causing, you know, problem after problem at the moment. So, yeah, it'll be very interesting to see the team selection tomorrow. I think he will be brave. I hope he's brave. Does it feel, Chris, that Forrest, I mean, it sounds ridiculous, I suppose, when they're still in a relegation battle a bit, but they're peaking at just the right time for this semi-final?

25:18Chris Sutton:Yeah, yeah, it does. And, you know, I just hope the Forrest players focus on the game tomorrow and aren't thinking too much about the Premier League. Everybody talks about the importance, and we know financially how important it is, but for Forrest to get back in this position where they can get to another European final, it's a really big deal. It's a big night. They're up against an Aston Villa team who are capable, but Forrest have that momentum now going into this game, so they'll fancy it, I think. well I mean the other thing just part of the Premier League there is a Champions League place on the line as well Gary I know that's getting slightly ahead of ourselves yeah I mean you've got to give Villa credit for what they've done this season fifth place at the moment look like you know certain to get in Champions League place Forest missed out by you know a point they drew with Leicester at the end of last season had they won that game that had been in the Champions League yeah it's a massive thing and people keep saying players have been rested for this they're more intent on staying in the Premier League which is understandable but Forest did well against Villa a few weeks ago, that was the start of the run they went on I think we all said if we get a point in that game against Aston Villa at home then you've got Burnley and Sunderland coming up you can build on that and that's exactly what they did Champions League special I know that from what we did all those years ago So, you know, that'll be in the players' minds.