World Cup: Did VAR Cost Egypt?

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0:30at Whole Foods Market. If you are currently overpaying on software to run your business, remember this number, 10 ,000. That's the number of new businesses that join Odoo per month. Join Odoo today at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. The Football Daily Podcast at the People World Cup 2026 with Rick Edwards and Lloyd Griffith. Hello. Hello. Hello. You sound like Harry Kane. Are you okay? That was good. I'm excited. I've enjoyed myself. That's all right, isn't it? How are you saying hello? Just the normal way. Go on. Hello.

1:11What was that? I don't know. I genuinely don't know. Okay, well, I'll see if I can do it without saying hello. Maybe I can't. Maybe I have to say it like that. Do you know my singing teacher, if you're struggling to start something, you go... Hello. Try that. Okay.

1:30Hello. Do the sentence, though. All right. Hello, you're listening to the Football Daily with me, Rick Edwards, and... Me, Lloyd Griffith. Thank you for the help with saying hello, though. I did need it, turns out. A couple of nice moments watching the two games today. The first was I'd got my timings a bit wrong, and so we were watching the Egypt-Argentina game, which was very exciting. Nine o 'clock start. Nine o 'clock start. so we're watching it at home, me, you, producer Lizzie, and I had to get out to a meeting and the timings were... Another meeting. Yeah, it wasn't perfect and so I just thought okay I'm gonna have to run in and just do an incredibly quick shower for like three minutes shower in and out and hope I don't miss anything.

2:17As I get out the shower I hear you two shouting and so I've well I've just marauded into the living room just in my towel and I accept that it was a bit much but I also it was like an Old Spice video yeah thank you very much indeed it was like an Old Spice video where I shouldn't have played the music as I came about a man of an age he's in a towel hey guys man of an age no yeah but you've got an age I have got an age there you go so there's no denying that is there yeah but anyway so sorry that well it's not me I mean yeah and and also sorry I think it's producer Lizzie but I'm glad I'm glad I got to see was it the I can't remember which gold it was was it the gold that wasn't a gold it's the gold that wasn't a gold It was the goal that wasn't the goal.

2:57I'm glad I saw that. Yeah. We saw enough replays. I'm glad you saw it. Can I just say something? Yeah. Fantastically defined shoulders. Thank you very much indeed. And it's quite mad how you've just shaved a thunderbolt into your body hair. By mad you mean sexy. Oh, yeah, in a way. Yeah, in a way. And then the other thing is for the second game for Columbia, Switzerland, we went to a bar and it was full of Colombians. Did we say our local? Basically our local, yeah. And it was great vibe in there. So the Colombians, they've got their drums and their dancing. Cowbells. And their winding. And it's excellent.

3:33You don't think they were winding? There was a lady sort of, well, here to us, who spent most of the time winding. What do you mean by winding? When you say winding, I think of a jack-in-a-box. Sort of like a dance. Right, okay. Maybe I've got the wrong word. I don't know. She was doing something. I think she was just cheering on her team. Well, for a while, I didn't realise there was a scream behind her, so I also thought she was just facing the wrong way. Just loving the vibe. But she was watching it. anyway it's a lovely time yeah very very vibrant and then at some point you sort of realized that people are giving you a funny look they were like looking at me and like almost like not disbelief and i was like oh here we go you know what i mean i didn't realize that return to paradise uh you know available on the iplayer yeah is is that big in in in colombia you know i know it's on brickbox over here but i was like whoa crikey i think i've got some fans here and then the looks were a bit like disconcerting.

4:23I was like, what is their problem? I mean, I'm a neutral here. And you're thinking they've definitely seen Return to Paradise. Leave it out, Rick. Award winning. And then a lady came over to me and she went, excuse me, are you supporting Switzerland? I went, no, no, I'm English. She went, oh, right. And then she went, it's just your top. And for the people looking at this online, visual ones, I'm basically wearing what can I describe it as? Well, the ones we're looking at can see it. Well, it's a Switzerland top. it's a new red and white lotto top that I've got because Grimsby have just been sponsored by lotto so I'm really getting into the vibe I'm a shill for Grimsby but it does look like I'm wearing a Switzerland top oh no I'm supporting I don't support any of these I'm a neutral which didn't help because obviously Swiss are neutral and what also didn't help was you had your cuckoo clock with you yeah a load of cheese with holes in it yeah and you paid when you you had a lovely Kale Caesar I mean you pay for that just with a gold bar yeah I did, yeah.

5:22And I had some Diableray, which is a lovely little herbal drink, which is probably quite niche for this podcast. It does get occasionally quite niche. Do Google it. So, yeah, welcome to the podcast, Stephen Warnock. This is the proudest stuff we're talking about. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Just been sat there for the entire time there, just like thinking, why have I agreed to do this then? This is my day off. Why am I here? I'd like to say try not to laugh, but it looked quite easy. Didn't hear a single thing from him. Can we make sure he's head... Oh, they are switched on, are they?

5:52Yeah. Okay, brilliant. Were there any bits that you missed? No, no. They heard it all? Enjoyed it all. Yeah, I was laughing to be sad. Well, I thought, because I hadn't been introduced... Tell your face and your voice then. I didn't want to laugh and then someone goes, who's that in the background? Yeah. But funny though? Yeah, very funny. Very funny. Fair play to you. Lovely. Let's do it all again. Now, it is obviously nice to have you in person. We've had you on the pod remotely, but you just got a better vibe in person. Yeah, do you know what? It was lovely because obviously me and Lloyd were talking about fire engines.

6:20So I thought, I've bought you a little present, Lloyd. No, you have not. Oh, no, you have not. I just thought, what can I get and what can I bring just to say? And I say this with respect, it's so pathetic. This is lovely. For the listeners, it is a friction-powered fire rescue team fire appliance because that's the correct terminology. It also says, try me. You've left the price on and I really appreciate that as well. That's not cheap. We are in America. Can I say 100 % true and I'll send you a photo of it. My three-year-old has this exact fire engine. Does he? Not anymore. No.

7:04Where do you think we got it? This is great. Light and sound. I know you've got a day off tomorrow so enjoy your day off. And this is a Simon Snorkel as well. It's not a normal ladder. It's a Simon Snorkel as you can see from the back there. That's a ladder Simon's in Auckland just like your normal appliance. Can I also say when Greg James, big fan of the pod, he was like, I can't believe Stephen also likes fire engines. I love that. And there was Rick trying to poo-poo it. Like, embrace the quirks. There's loads of you. There are. It's quite strange, isn't it? No, it's not strange. It's absolutely normal.

7:36I'm going to put that down here if that's right. That's lovely. Oh, mate, that's beautiful. Well, let's talk about the football, shall we? Argentina survived another scare today coming back from 2-0 down to beat Egypt 3-2. We'll come on to the football in a moment. But there was so much VAR drama and controversy in this one. Let's bring in the BBC's Football Issues correspondent, Dale Johnson. Now, Dale, just to sort of explain what happened. Zico had put Egypt 2-0 ahead in the 58th minute. It was an unbelievable goal. Incredible workout on the right wing. One of the most significant goals of the tournament, potentially.

8:13and then the referee gets called by VAR to review a challenge on Lissandro Martinez at the start of the move that was way back in the Egypt half and it got chalked off. Not only that, but then when Argentina's winning goal went in, Egypt were complaining for a potential penalty on Mo Salah about as far back as that previous one. So I suppose the first question is, well, two parts actually. can VAR go back that far to look at a foul but more importantly should it? Yeah so I think there's two parts and potentially a third part to this question really. No just two just two. In terms of time really it can go back much further and actually in terms of in the Premier League they don't go back too far at all and the fact there's a really good comparable one from last season involving Aston Villa and Brentford where the ball went out of play virtually in exactly the same area of the pitch that it did in Icentaian versus Egypt right in the far corner by the corner flag and in the Premier League game it went back 19 seconds and today's game it was 17 seconds so that just shows there's quite a bit of time but honestly sometimes in the European leagues they go back 40-45 seconds whereas in the Premier League they have a much more controlled idea of what should be the attacking phase as they call it.

9:34Now when it comes to whether they should go about that far. I think the Premier League's got it better that way, to be honest. I think going back so far in the move whereby people don't realise when the attack has actually begun, I don't think that makes any sense at all. Yeah, because they said in the attacking phase and instinctively you looked at it and went, well, that's not in the attacking phase. They're defending. Yeah. Yeah, so the way it's defined is when the team gets the possession of the ball to start the attack so if they get possession of the ball by committing a foul then that means it's in the attacking phase and that's how they define it sort of feels to me like there should just be i don't know if it's an arbitrary limit but if you don't set a limit to how far you can go back then you end up just re-refereeing the whole game and surely that isn't the point of VAR well no exactly and it's one of the things that frustrates people more than anything else is VAR getting involved when I guess when people aren't expecting to when they've just seen especially when you've seen one of the goals of the tournament as they did today and people just get frustrated and feel that VAR's there just to find a reason to disallow a goal and take the joy out of the game that they're watching.

10:45I think the thing was also quite frustrating especially for the Egyptian team the foul that was given that VAR went and looked at was probably not as bad as some other stuff that had been given throughout the day and especially throughout the tournament like the referees during this tournament have been well they've been quite strong on the fouls but I think they've let a lot of stuff go they've let a lot of stuff go and this you're kind of going ordinarily I think you probably would have let that go I think the big thing for me is it's not clear and obvious when you watch it so often we see a penalty given and you go has he missed something clear and obvious he didn't miss anything clear and obvious because I actually thought it was more a tangling of legs so why does he then go back and look at it if it's a clear foul and you go do you know what I've absolutely missed that but it didn't look as obvious to me as a clear and obvious it just looked like a tangling of legs well he just sort of stands on his foot a little bit doesn't he but it's not like it is I mean it's soft that's football when we watch the game and I'm sure you're in the same position Dale like when they go oh they're going to look at something we watch the game and we're like what are they going back for whereas again the situation with the Salawan later on you're going well there it's in the penalty area and that is I think clear and obvious have you missed that because it's quite clear it's in the penalty area and could be a penalty whereas this is a foul that was I don't know again in the defensive phase I mean they're trying to recover there so I just think there's a lot of ambiguity I think the legend makes a good point there about does he?

12:16yeah well done it's good to get your first one the challenges that have been let go they're like we've had a really really high threshold has been a pilot Pierre Luigi Collina said only last week that he wants normal football contact to allow to go so it's a higher tempo game so you're not stopped starting on tackles that's great but if you're doing that you've got to have the same ethos in the VAR room as well and you can't disallow goals for fouls which would never have been given on the field in the first place otherwise you've got a two tier situation whereby you're having one threshold in VAR and one threshold on the pitch and if they don't match and come together properly, then you have situations like this.

12:57And then let's look at another one, actually, in the Germany-Ecuador game a couple of weeks ago where there was a high boot into the face of one of the Ecuador players and Leroy Sane's goal is allowed to stand. And that just shows another area of inconsistency where that was a clear boot to the face, yet the VAR didn't get involved. And today you've got something which is 17 seconds back in the move where people didn't even realise anything had happened, yet this time the VAR does get involved and disallows the goal and it just gives that feeling of inconsistency and the fans don't really understand what is happening with VAR and when the intervention is actually going to happen.

13:34Yeah, it's frustrating and I suppose actually to your point, Stephen, that looks exactly like normal football contact. Yeah, I think the big thing is as well is everything's subjective so you're going to get different decisions. If we had a different referee and a different VAR today looking at that foul, They could have seen it completely different. And this is the problem with VAR, and VAR really frustrates me at times because it is so subjective and it's only a matter of opinion. Another point on the Salah one. Now, if that foul had happened outside the penalty area, we may well have seen the VAR get involved and give them the foul and disallow the goal.

14:09But because the potential foul took place in the penalty area, that means it's a potential penalty, so the threshold's even higher because it needs to be a proper clear foul for the VAR to give a penalty and that makes it even more confusing for people. I mean, that's just ridiculous, isn't it? It's absolutely ridiculous. I mean, for what it's worth, I probably don't think it was a pen. Did you think it was? No, I didn't think it was a penalty. No. But that's sort of not quite the point here. It's not quite the point, no. But again, looking back to both of those fouls, I don't think they were fouls.

14:43No, I didn't. The one that was brought back. and you just go, just let us enjoy the game, please. Let us enjoy the game. Well, I'll tell you who didn't enjoy it very much is the Egypt manager. This is what he said in his post-match media stuff. We look better than the reigning champions, better in everything, but the result was influenced by internal factors on the pitch and external factors off it. Perhaps they wanted to keep the world champion in the competition. Perhaps they wanted Messi to stay in the running. In football, there are sometimes external factors that go beyond the technical aspects.

15:12The world champion received support at every level. there seem to be pressures from the Argentine side on the outcome we haven't seen respect or fair play a penalty for us was ruled out was not even checked by the VAR and our second goal was remarkably for whatever reason disallowed we've all seen the shirt pulled back by he's talking about McAllister, not even a VAR check, life is unfair, normal life is unfair why is there no fairness in sports I'm not convinced by this outcome and the way things unfold in this match, I want to put it in beautiful words and say hard luck but we've been treated unfairly and it's been an injustice, now the BBC have have reached out to FIFA and said, what do you want to say in response to that?

15:46And haven't had a response as yet. But I mean... You can see what he's angry. Yeah, and I'm not really buying into the kind of conspiracy angle particularly, but I also do understand why he would think, okay, if that situation is reversed, does he believe if Argentina had scored that goal, would it have been pulled back for that softer foul by Argentina 17 seconds before? and I mean, we'll never know. We will never know. There was a little bit of me thinking, and again, like you said earlier, it's all subjective. If Egypt are playing Switzerland, you know, and it's not Argentina, does he give the free kick there?

16:27And this is not me being a bit of a flat earther here, you know what I mean? And going on a real conspiracy. But you do believe that though, don't you? I've just never seen it from... And you've never seen the edge? I think... And there will be an edge. But I do think there is, sometimes unconscious bias that refs sometimes maybe don't realise that they're doing. Yeah, but also, just generally, you know that there is pressure in certain situations on referees and they react in ways that any human would. So, like a penalty at Anfield, for example. The other thing I would say on that is, you're talking about the referee, it's actually VAR who stepped in.

17:08So it's not him on the pitch who's making that decision. so the foul that's been given has actually come from above and it's VAR and then it's up to him then to make that decision. I think he didn't he didn't pull it up then so stick to your original decision. That's my big thing where I say clear and obvious did I miss something really obvious there? No he didn't. I don't know the answer to this but I just wonder if any referees have gone to a screen this tournament and come back Dale I'm not sure if you know the answer and have gone actually do you know what I disagree with that because every time they go to it the screen like in the England-Mexico So if it goes to the screen, right, well, he's being sent off.

17:43And also that's a penalty. There was one, wasn't there? I remember. I can't remember which game it was. Yeah, it was France-Senegal when Mbappe was going to get a penalty. And the referee didn't give the penalty. And it was nuts because it was a very clear penalty. Yeah, exactly. Just generally speaking on VAR in this tournament then, Dale, and the consistency of it, lots of people have been wondering whether it's been used more than we see it be used in the Premier League. have we got any kind of data on that? Yeah, so it's used about one every three games in the World Cup. It's about just under one every three in the Premier League.

18:16So it's being used more in the World Cup. But I think perception has changed slightly. I think during the group stage, people had the idea that VAR was staying out of things and being quite consistent. But I think when we got to the knockout rounds, I think there's been quite a few incidents, like we've seen today, where people are starting to think, yeah, maybe it isn't quite so smooth. And I think the reason for that is, and it's what we've seen in the Premier League is that when you try to have a higher bar on things, it's far more difficult to get that subjective point, which we were just talking about, where you've got 30 different VARs in rotation and they've all got to try and find the same subjective bar and managing to do that is really nearly impossible.

18:58And the reason why it sometimes looks better in things like the Champions League, who have an intervention every other game, is because they get involved in so much that looks consistent because there's not so much opinion going on from the person sat in the VAR room. So I think it's better to try and have a lighter touch, but it makes it much more difficult and much more controversial. Just while we got you, Dale, what's the latest on the red card issue that we've all been talking about for the last few days? Do we know if France are going to appeal Elysée's yellow? Do we know if England are going to appeal Kwanzaa's red?

19:32So there's no actual route to appeal, as should have been the case for the United States as well, of course. so you can't blame everyone chancing their arm, obviously in the case of France they're scared that Alise will get a yellow card in the quarterfinal and miss the semi-final and England want to chance their arm of getting their quants available for the next two games which is very unlikely to happen but the FIFA have created this situation themselves by the absolutely ludicrous situation where they have gone back on their own rules to change the way the whole process works and how we know it works that when you get sent off in a World Cup or any tournament, be that the Champions League or the Euros or the World Cup, you miss the next game.

20:12And because they've gone back on that, because of, let's be honest, some intervention from Donald Trump, then it just creates this situation whereby why shouldn't anybody think that they also have the right to get their player available or to avoid this risk of suspension? So I think anyone that's got into position now is going to raise potential appeals. The Kwanzaa red card, is that one or two match ban? Two, isn't it? Well, this is another thing. Serious foul players are two match ban. So in the case of Balogun, he should have got two games, but they only gave him a one match ban suspended.

20:46So why didn't he get two games? That hasn't been explained either. The FIFA disciplinary code says at least two matches for that. I reckon we just start Kwanzaa. Just start Kwanzaa. And see what happens? Do you know what I just think? Just start Kwanzaa, see what happens. I mean, what's he going to do? Come on the pitch? Get off, mate. Go and entertain them. lot up there do you know what I mean the views of Lloyd Griffith there not the BBC yeah cheers Dale see you later cheers Dale

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21:52Five lights for... Hello, I'm Alistair Bruce Ball, and I'll be commentating on the World Cup for the BBC this summer. It's a commentator favorite World Cup moment. France 4, Argentina 3 in Russia 2018. Amazing goal from Benjamin Pavard in that game on the half volley. Pavard with the right hand. Unbelievable! Unbelievable goal! What makes the World Cup such a special tournament? It's its exotic nature. I think particularly as a kid, it just seemed to happen in far-off lands that you'd only ever dreamt about or heard about. The People World Cup 2026. Listen on BBC Sounds. The Football Day at the People World Cup 2026.

22:35With Rick Edwards and Lloyd Griffith. Live from LA. I just want to quickly give a lot of credit to Henry Winter, football journalist, friend of the pod, who had the best take on the VAR. I don't know if you've heard this. I have, brilliant. If VAR had gone any further back in that Egyptian move, Tutankhamun would have been involved. Yes, Henry. On the game itself then, I mean, so close to being just an unbelievable day for Egypt. 2-0 up with like 11 minutes remaining. And you found a stat that, like the equivalent of Opto or whatever said, at that point, Argentina had a 0.6 % chance of getting through, something like that.

23:19And then this nuts turnaround, Argentina scoring twice in the space of four minutes. Romero, then obviously, I mean, obviously, Messi getting the equaliser with the technique on that strike as well. Does your stats thing not take into consideration that Argentina have Messi? I tell you what, it was really interesting as well watching that game because again, on paper, it's Argentina. I mean, they should probably walk all over Egypt and Egypt haven't been incredible this tournament. And then Egypt were fantastic. They were absolutely fantastic and they scored some brilliant goals. One allowed, one disallowed.

23:54And you do really really feel for them? The real victims, I think, are the tabloid headline writers who would have been sitting on they Sphinx It's All Over. It is now. Pyramid scheme gone wrong? Yeah, there's loads of stuff. There's loads of stuff. Just thought of that off the top of my head. Yeah. Got any more? Well done. Mummy's crying. Yeah. Oh. I don't know. There's something in Giza's a Wave. Pyramid at Giza. Giza's a Wave. No, it doesn't work. Hey, what are you? pyramid scheme gone wrong we'll be we'll be Cairo-ing back with Norway next week yeah let's move on I've got a livelihood to defend and the one before on Argentina okay it was the it was the latest a team has ever been two or more goals down and gone on to win without needing extra time good stat very good stat I don't think they've won a game from 2-0 down in the World Cup before have they as well Argentina haven't I mean, no.

24:55So, even more impressive. I did think once they got the equaliser... Oh, you just knew it was happening. Yeah. I think Egypt knew, didn't they? They were just like, no, that is not what we needed. They were all begging for the offside for Romero, weren't they? Hoping that it was going to be offside. No. Just from a sort of neutral perspective, Argentina, the last couple of games in particular, have been absolute box office. Getting your money's worth. I mean, really. You're getting goals. Getting your dollar's worth out here. Yeah. Getting goals. Yeah. So we had Guillain Balaguer on the other day, and he was talking about Messi's stats overall.

25:28And he moves about six kilometres in a game. On average, I suppose, players move 10, 11, 12, something like that. So about half the amount. And 62 % of that is walking. And so I spent quite a bit of the game just watching Messi. And he's just walking. Quite often, he won't even be on the screen because he's just ambling back from somewhere. And then every now and again, there's just a little scurry of activity. But basically, he is the best scurry. Exactly. There's two things I thought were quite interesting. Even after the penalty miss, he just walked. He walked. He just moseyed. He just moseyed on over.

26:05Quick look up to the sky and then we'll walk. And then just moseyed over. But I've been, since watching that video of Guillaume and telling that fact, I've been watching other footballers now and just seeing if they do it. And Cristiano does it, but not in the same way. And that's not me having a dig at Cristiano. Sounds like it. Be careful what you say He listens to the pod Yeah Some of his fans Do actually listen to the pod They love it But then also Haaland as well Haaland Before that second goal Yesterday Oh sorry No it's the first It's the first It's the header It's the header He looks like He looks like he's in a garden centre He looks sort of lost He's just sort of He's just wandering around Wandering around And then Sunday It's just like This massive burst Bang And it's in It's like It's really It's very pleasing Doing your own player camp That's what the best players in the world can do.

26:53Yeah. And that's why they're so special, because they just find space. I walk around, but it's for very different reasons. Yeah, but you're walking in the wrong directions. That's the problem, Lloyd. You haven't seen Lloyd play. I have seen Lloyd play. I actually do walk. No, he's not on the camera, that's why. Because he's walking the wrong way. I'm just there, but I'm walking because I've got quite a large BMI.