World Cup: England Out & Tuchel Under Fire

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1:22And there's no point dancing around it. I'm absolutely gutted, mate. I'm absolutely, well, not only am I gutted, I'm also quite cross. You're gutted, you're cross. I'm gutted, cross, sad. Disappointed. Disappointed. Yeah. You know when people say I'm not angry, I'm disappointed? Yeah. I'm angry and disappointed. We should probably just let the listeners know that if they don't know what we're talking about. I feel like if they're listening to the football day, they probably know what happens. Oh, right. So you're saying that my... Yeah, go on. I was about to say my mum, but my mum was... Yeah, I know your mum once.

1:52I've seen the photos of her with her friends. My mum was texting me some fantastic stuff. Fruity language in there, actually. Very fruity language, which we'll go through maybe in a minute. England lost 2-1 to Argentina in the FA Cup. Have you lost your mind? I wish it was the FA Cup. I have absolutely lost my mind. England lost 2-1 to Argentina in the FA Cup today, if anyone wants to wonder. The World Cup semi-final. Oh, my goodness. I mean, that just sums up. This is last day of a stag do, Phil. Yeah. Well, it's one of those where it's inexplicably a three-day stag do. So you've had a great time the first two.

2:27And then the third day, everyone's like, why aren't we home? Do you know what? I wish I was home. Also as well, because we're here and we're here to the very end, this basically has the vibe of it's a week-long stag do, but the stag got really badly injured on day two, had to be airlifted back to the UK. We're still here. We're still here. And the best man went with him, so he just got four or five strays. And we don't necessarily even know each other. No, and we go, should we still go paintballing? Are we going to go paintballing in New York? it's what he would have wanted he's not dead well we don't know that anyway yeah so we went and watched it in the Irish pub we've watched a few a few other games yeah and it alright you shut up not in a mood for that

3:11a little annoying cheers me up thank you mate you know I like that and it was really it was really tense because Argentina came out and they were aiming to ruffle England's feathers They killed English players. They did, and it was quite dirty. The ref, I thought, was abysmal. Like, I don't know what he was playing at. And it was obviously part of Argentina's game plan. And it, well, it sort of worked. Yeah. But then, you know, after 55 minutes, Anthony Gordon scored. It's a great goal. We went absolutely ballistic. And it was a fantastic feeling. and I honestly thought we've kind of we've got through it we've done the hard work here we've done the hard bit now you now you protect it now what I wasn't expecting is Thomas Tuchel to try and protect it in the way that he did which is bring on every defender he had at his disposal and so just sit in a line at the back genuinely I'm so cross did every defender come on I'm just going to have a little look at the well Konza came on for Gordon yeah okay Dan Byrne came on poor old Trevor Chalabur oh Trevor Chalabur Trevor Chalmers was like, oh my, get on here.

4:24Yeah, I've got a chance. Get Kane off. Get Kane off. He's blowing. Just going up to Thomas. Hey, look at Kane. Look at Kane. I'm checking. Look, we'll just go four in the middle and then a couple of fullbacks as well. I'm checking flash scores. They're not getting through that. It's live. They're giving him 5.6, Thomas. Let's get him off. Get me up top with Dan Byrne. Yeah, I mean, that's what it was reduced to at the end. And then sort of bringing on Ivan, Tony and Rashford with sort of three minutes left. Fifty night's pointless, mate. You were wearing your Grimsby shirt. It's been lucky up to this point.

4:58Not anymore, so we're going to have to burn it. Well, do you know what? There was a little bit of me thought the new Grimsby shirt that came out the other week is a replica of that old one, and I got sent the new one. There was a bit of me this morning going, should I wear the new one? I thought, I can't wear the new one. Imagine if I wear the new one. Even though it's pretty much identical. But yes, I'm just going to throw that into the sea. So if you want, it's worth about 200 quid, to be fair. Is it? What? The reaction in the pub when Enzo Fernandes scored the equaliser, honestly, was one of resignation.

5:31Because you just saw how it was going. England were lucky not to have... Well, Pickford had made one fantastic save. No, a couple of good saves. One that was superb. And there was a few where they were just straight at him. And if they'd been a couple of feet on the side, probably goals. But there was the long-range one that he chipped over the bar as well. Yeah, yeah, that was good. That was Enzo Fernandes with one of his warm-up shots, I think. But he had a few of those. And did England feel like closing them down? No, thank you. And then when we got to 90 minutes and we saw the nine minutes of extra time, we were sort of saying, well, initially...

6:12Well, producer Jonathan said something about what I'd have probably waited for extra time to bring on a few more of these players. And you said... And I said, I don't think we're getting to extra time. And I just looked at you and I don't think so either. There was no sense that we could resist the tide. There was no game plan. We'd invited the... Well, there was. It was terrible. Sorry. Yeah. You could see what the game plan was. There was no game plan for us to score. There was no game plan for us to advance to go to the World Cup final. But I also thought we were probably going to concede because they were making chances.

6:45You invited it. And what is so... Messi had so much space and he doesn't need space. But this is the thing. If you are playing against... Argentina are not a one-man team, but they do happen to have the best footballer in the world in their team. Dot, dot, dot ever. Dot, dot, dot ever, yeah. And so if you are just lumping the ball up and they are then just processing it again, recycling it again, and you're giving it to Messi, because we had no one in the middle to be a playmaker, to go, oh, let's get it out to so-and-so. I don't know why. When we scored, we didn't just keep going. To be fair, just before Rodgers put that fantastic ball in.

7:22And again, the goal. We should talk about the goal. The goal was a brilliant... It's a great goal. It's a brilliant ball and it's a brilliant finish. Bit of press, you know what I mean? Declan Rice gets it to Rodgers. Rodgers puts in a fantastic ball. That finish by Gordon. I mean, look, we're going to be talking about Thomas Tuchel and the 76 defenders that we've had on. But that was a fantastic finish. About two minutes before that, I was like, look, I think we bring Saka on for Rodgers because Rodgers has been a little bit kind of... Well, Abs just thought a bit of pace on the flanks. And Gordon, you know, was getting tired, although he got in for the goal.

7:55And he just thought, well, we must be bringing Saka or Rashford on or even Maduake just a bit more. And that just didn't happen. It didn't happen. They tried to shut the shop, but they forgot the keys to the shutters. Yeah, well, they left all the windows open. Oh, yeah, let's be fair. They left all the windows open. So maybe they shut the door, but all of the windows were open. And the back door. and there was a sign outside saying shops open shops open and an arrow's pointing to the windows and the doors saying really Argentinian players please come on in help yourself yeah it's absolutely horrible nah it was horrible I will say that Argentina took advantage of that and played I think really well better than I think I've seen them play in this tournament from our goal onwards yeah 100 % I think so I thought they were excellent And I didn't, like, at the end of that game, no part of me thought England deserved to win that.

8:55And that's a real shame. That's where the disappointment of sadness comes from, I think. Had we managed to get a second goal after that first and then shut up shop or try to shut up shop or slowly start closing the shutters? We didn't look like scoring any goals. I mean, neither. I mean, it was very, it was so cagey. I think there was one was there one shot in the first half? I don't think England had one shot in the first half. Yeah. It didn't feel like it. No. So yeah we looked pretty impotent and to be fair up until the changes so did Argentina. I actually got a stat here Rick sorry from Opta England versus Argentina in the first World Cup match on record since 1966 I don't know what happened that year not a single shot in the first 30 minutes.

9:43The previous record for the longest wait for a shot was England's last game against Norway. 29 minutes. Yeah, we're an exciting team to watch, aren't we? Crikey. I mean, it is just so frustrating. And, you know, we saw Bellingham come out afterwards and just say he's so frustrated because, you know, that whole mentality is they want to put that second start on the badge. That's been their aim. They've said, look, what do we want? You know, it's all right saying that we want to win a World Cup. And when do we want it? Well, ideally. It would have been now. before the 60th minute. But they... It's sad because we've got, I think, the best England team we've had for years and years and years.

10:22And Harry Kane will probably have another World Cup. Will he be where he is? Do you not think? I don't know about that. Euros, yes. I can't... It'll be 30... I mean, look, Messi's saying anything's possible. Yeah. But Kane will be 36. And Messi is somewhat of a freak. Absolutely. in that regard. Look, let's see. But I think you've got certain players that won't be around. Okay, here we go. That's right. Not now. I'm still not ready for it. Join in. We've got go-karting tomorrow. We've got go-karting and that all-inclusive brunch. I'm just sad because this was, you know, a fantastic generation of players that should have gone all the way and I think they have been let down by managerial decisions.

11:16That's, yeah, that's the last thing I'd say is I personally don't feel like I put any blame on players at all. Not at all. Don't think I did anything wrong. I actually, this is in my drafts because I didn't put it on social media because I thought, no, just calm yourself down. Let's hear what could have got Rick Edwards cancelled. Yes, that wouldn't have been cancelled, but it's a bit petty. I said there's a show starting in the US tonight called Nation's Dumbest Thomas Tuchel's Tactics a shoe-in for season two oh that's good it's alright it's alright and then I just thought it's too that was very heat at the moment it was a bit it needs a bit of work it's fine I'd send that to Rhys James not the footballer punch it up not the footballer I've got the wrong one he'll have other things on his mind I'm mad if you've got both of those people in your phone book Rhys James is a comedian he'll come up with that really good joke we'll get you can do that on the week well let's bring in ESPN's Mark Ogden I mean Mark I feel like England were in not complete control but control at 1-0 and then the game just turned

12:26Mark Ogden:yeah I mean watching it from the stadium you were thinking at some point Thomas Tuchel he's probably going to put on maybe Marcus Rashford switching up a little bit because I've seen we're pressing so much that England needed some sort of counter-attacking threat, but they just kept getting deeper and deeper and deeper and it was just like, this can't sustain itself because you can't defend deep at 30 minutes against Argentina. It was just crazy. Why do you think he made those early substitutions that were so defensive? Was there any thinking behind it, you think? Well, obviously it worked against Mexico.

12:59Mark Ogden:It worked in Mexico City and I guess if it's worked before, you try it again, but Mexico and Argentina are completely different animals. Argentina have got much greater forwards that they've also got Lionel Messi. And the one thing that I think you see with Argentina, people have asked me, how do they keep winning games later on? Well, what happens is teams are so frightened of Messi that they don't want to counter-attach, they don't want to press too much and leave gaps at the back. So what they do is they defend even deeper and deeper and deeper, which invites him on. So that was a problem that they basically played right into Argentina's hands.

13:31Is there a degree of naivety then from Tuchel bringing on those defensive substitutions and thinking they might be able to protect a lead for half an hour when you kind of knew there was no outball for England? If England did win possession momentarily, they couldn't hold on to it. And if they cleared it upfield, then Argentina just recycled it. I mean, I don't know if you've seen the possession stats from when Anthony Gordon scored in the 55th minute to the end. England had 12 % possession. Argentina had 88. And it felt like that. And that, to me, that's embarrassing.

14:12Mark Ogden:Well, you mentioned naivety there right at the outset. and it shouldn't be naivety because Thomas Tuchel's hired because he was the guy that had won a Champions League he was a top level coach he was the guy that where Gareth Southgate kind of fell by the wayside and didn't make the big decisions Tuchel was going to do it and he did exactly what Gareth Southgate was blamed for doing by being too cautious too slow to make changes and I have no idea why he did what he did put on defenders and you know Lionel Scalona the Argentina coach he worked for more attacking changes and that made the difference you know England put on Dan Byrne to defend the lead Argentina put on Letaro Martinez to win it and you know fortune favours the brave but you talk about the out ball harry kane was poor today he was he was really poor he didn't offer anything in the sense of bearing in mind he was playing against at the end of the game a 38 year old centre-half in nicolas otomendi kane just looked like he couldn't run so why was i mean tony not put on earlier why was why was rashford not put on just to just to give argentina something to worry about some pace on the counter-attack so the other thing that I found frustrating in a deeply frustrating game overall was our seeming inability to learn certain patterns.

15:17So the corners that Argentina were taking, every single time, it was the same thing and it seemed to fox us. And that was driving me mad. And then the thing where they just play it out to the edge of the box and they've got someone, normally Enzo Fernandez, with tonnes of room ready to shoot. And he's a guy, you know, from Chelsea who can score from range. And before he scored the goal, that's a good goal. I mean, there's no one on him. He's had a sighter about two minutes before. And you think, why is that not being addressed?

15:48Mark Ogden:Well, there's a theory in the modern game that players are now so overcoached that they only know what they're supposed to do. And if it comes to a point where they do something they're not supposed to, they don't want to do it. They don't want to take that chance. They don't want to break out of the rigid coaching structure. So they'd be brought up in academies and with coaches that say, all you do is this, focus on that. So anything kind of outside that, they're at a loss. But the difference with Argentina is all these players, you can tell they come through a different system. They can think on their feet.

16:14Mark Ogden:They can play off the cuff. And that's what they did tonight. And just as an aside, I thought it took England maybe half an hour to realise that they were in a street fight, a game that they'd never really quite encountered, that it was a dirty game, it was an edgy game, and Argentina were really pushing the limits. And England were kind of shocked by it, because they're so used to playing in this sterile Premier League and Champions League environment. Argentina really dragged it back to a street game. And a lot of the England players were like, how do we deal with this? It seemed like that. The first, I think it was a tale of two halves really, the first half.

16:44Very kind of, as you say, like a little courtyard in South America. And then in the second half, a game of football where the referee didn't really need to get involved. It was sort of attack via defence, wasn't it? Yeah. Like a training exercise that the attack was much better at.

16:59Mark Ogden:Atom was set for the game because of the way the referee refereed. I think the Argentina players knew they could push the limits. And again, what I'm saying with the England players, they didn't have that game intelligence. I can't think of a better word for it, really, without being offensive. But the Argentina players had. They were able to play the margins much better than the England players. And I think the Argentina players refereed the game and they controlled the game as the way they wanted it to be played. I know what you mean. And in the first half an hour, the feeling I had was oh no, this is going to be one of those games where we get dragged into it being incredibly niggly.

17:34And the referee, as you say, I think had lost control or was refereeing very badly. Why he didn't bring his cards out before he did, I have no idea. And I thought, oh, maybe we'd lose this narrowly. And we're fuming at the refereeing and the way that the Argentinians have played. And actually, by the end of the game, I just thought, well, England have deserved to lose this game. I have no real complaints. I think they've just been completely outplayed and outclassed by Argentina in that last 35 minutes.

18:03Mark Ogden:They were definitely outsmarted, outplayed. Nobody can say that England deserved to win that game today. Not in any part of the game did they dominate the play or set the tone. They would always be reactive to what Argentina were doing. Bellingham wasn't great tonight. Kane wasn't great tonight. Tuchel certainly wasn't great. England had the opportunity when they were one to kill the game and go to the World Cup final. But they didn't take it. They panicked. they're thrilled. We are all, everyone, online, us, people in the street, in the pub, they're all just talking about the substitutions. Like, I think they're at the turning point and the reason why we're not in the tournament anymore.

18:39When he made that first substitution, what was going through your mind and then subsequently when he, you know, made the Declan Rice and Rhys James substitutions where he put on two more defenders, what were you thinking? Well, I was thinking,

18:52Mark Ogden:when is he going to put a forward on? Simple as that. I mean, obviously you can make changes if you've got injuries and we know that Declan Rice who's been carrying an injury or lack of fitness. It was just basically defensive. It was almost like you're inviting Argentina to just camp in your half. I just thought that on those occasions when the opposition is camping in your half, you have to have a threat and a counter-attack. And they didn't have one. Anthony Gordon would run himself into the ground. So my thought was, when is Rashford coming on? And it never happened until too late after Argentina scored the second goal.

19:19Wayne Rooney said after the match that he felt that we'd crumbled. he said it started from the manager and the decisions he made. I find it hard to blame the players personally. I just think they're being told to do a certain thing and it hasn't worked. For me, all of the blame lies with Thomas Tuchel. I can't argue against that.

19:40Mark Ogden:I do think the players, as I said before, the Argentine players seem to have a bit more of the ability to do something off the cuff and change a game for themselves rather than be told how to do it by the coach. England have got big players, Real Madrid, Arsenal, Bayern Munich players who should know how to do this, but nobody really took a grip of the game. You know, Wayne Rooney was talking like that. I think if Rooney had been on the pitch, you would know that he would have done something to affect the game. The players out there were just looking around thinking, you know, who's going to take a grip of this?

20:07Mark Ogden:It wasn't Bellinger, it wasn't Gane. And that's the disappointment because they'd been so good in this tournament. But when it really mattered, in a game where they, you know, they really had to deliver, they didn't. What happens now to Thomas Tuchel? I mean, we were talking that he maybe was 15 minutes away from losing his job. after the DR Congo game. But this one, I mean, again, you speak to pretty much anyone and they're all just pinning the blame on him and saying, what has he done differently to a Gareth Southgate team, this tournament, specifically this game. So what do you think will happen to him?

20:41Will the FA do anything? Will he step down?

20:44Mark Ogden:Well, the situation with Tuchel is that we know he signed a new contract in February, March time. But in that contract, there is a performance-related clause were by, the FA can reassess it. Now, listen, they got to the semi-finals in the World Cup, so from a performance-related basis, that is probably, if not par, that's overachieving. But he was hired to be the guy that made the difference in these games. He's not the guy that you want to get to win around a 32 game. He's a guy that's going to win a semi-final or a final, and he hasn't done that. So I think he'll be OK. I just think the FA probably won't have the appetite to change it, but Pep Guardiola's available.

21:17Mark Ogden:And if Pep Guardiola was to give any indication that he would fancy the England job, then the FA would be crazy not to go after him. So I think Tuchel's got to be careful. Imagine that. Imagine that. I am imagining that. That's the first thing that's cheered me up in about 15 hours. There was a little incident, I don't know if you've seen this, where it was feisty is probably the kindest way of putting it in that first half. And at some point, I don't know exactly where it was, I've just seen some people talking about it on social media. Drew Bellingham has had a kind of an exchange with Messi.

21:54And I think he said some things. I read somewhere he ended it by saying, you were never as good as Ronaldo. And it's interesting because it probably doesn't make a difference. But I have heard from other players in the past that the last thing you want to do is rile Messi up.

22:13Mark Ogden:Yeah, I've seen that clip and I've seen Messi's face. And it's almost like there's a moment where he says, right you've done it now and I think yeah there's an element of uh inexperience on Bellingham's part Bellingham's a great player but he does some stupid things at times you know you know that some of the comments he makes I think he just needs to wind it in a little bit sometimes and I don't buy all this whereby you take that away you take away the player I don't I don't buy that I think sometimes you just got to be a bit more sensible and you don't go like Lilo Messi until you can go in the tunnel after the game but don't do it while the game's still live that's crazy And I guess at some level, the cross that Messi puts in for the winner, it's just perfect.

22:51It drops between our two defenders and it's absolutely perfect. And he can do that, but then he also has a lot too much time and space in order to pick that. Well, you say it was a perfect cross and it was, but Lotharo Martins was left unmarked in a six-yard box.

23:10Mark Ogden:I mean, you can debate whether he's a top-class striker who's done really well for Inter Milan, but an Inter Milan striker who scores a lot of goals in Italy is left unmarked in the six-yard box to head the ball in. So that is on the defenders. You can't leave a guy like that unmarked. I think we're going to have to let you go, Mark, because I know that you're in an airport lounge and you're getting kicked out, and your flight is also delayed, really to add insult to injury, really. You probably don't need that. It's been a great deal. So, yeah, we'll let you go, and we'll continue raking over the coals here.