World Cup: MNC - Argentina made the world root for Spain

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1:13With Steve Crossman. Listen on BBC Sounds. Hello there. We've got an hour of the Monday nightclub reflecting on Spain winning the World Cup. They beat Argentina in the final last night, 1-0. After extra time, Ferran Torres. got the goal. We've got with us Steph Houghton, former England captain, the athletics Adam Crafton and Luis Miguel Echegaray. Good evening everybody. Good evening. Adam, great to have you with us as well, out in New York I imagine? Yes, still here. Maybe the last person still here as everyone sweeps away. Turn off the lights etc, yeah? Exactly, exactly. That was some final Steph.

1:55Yeah, I think being English I wish it was the perfect outcome for us. I know we're trying to be impartial, but I think, yeah, I mean, I think Spain thoroughly deserved to win. Only if that goal could have come a little bit earlier, that would have been nice. But yeah, I mean, to top off a great World Cup, I think Spain were the worthy winners. We're going to talk a little bit later about Argentina and their, let's call it, behaviour over the course of the game. We're going to start by just letting Spain enjoy their victory because for the next 10 minutes, We've got Cesar Aspilicueta with us. Hello, Cesar.

2:30Hello. How does that feel? World champions again, eh? Really well, really well. How nervous were you as that game went on and Spain had all of the ball and a few chances and it just wasn't going in or it wasn't counting? Yeah, I was starting to feel a bit more nervous because I think the control and the way Spain controlled the game, it was not reflected in the score. And, you know, when the time goes on and you feel you want to win. And I was really pleased the way they managed the game, which was not very easy. I think everybody felt they deserved to be in front earlier in the game. But the goal didn't arrive and they kept pushing.

3:14They kept their patience. They kept calm. And they played their football. Let's go straight in on Rodri, I think, Cesar. Because we haven't got as long as we might have normally to talk about Spain's glorious victory. And I think for a lot of people, seeing Rodri, who of course you played with the Spanish national team for a long time, seeing him back to his best, I don't think it's only Manchester City and Spain fans who will have enjoyed that. I think for a lot of people, they wondered, might we see Rodri on this level again? But there he was. Yeah, he was amazing. and he had a challenging season with Man City but he was at his best level.

3:54He controlled the game from start to finish the tournament and for Spain he's such a key player to have a number six the same way Busquets was in the past in front of the defence and he controlled in defence, in attack. He was the leader, the captain and he was a very important player of this team. I think he makes things look easy and I think that's kind of a mark of a brilliant player. And I'm a big fan of Rodri, seeing him play week in, week out for Man City. And of course, he had that nasty knee injury. And I think that understanding that sometimes when you go through an injury like that, it does take a while to get back to your best form.

4:37And a player that's been so used to playing every three or four days for a number of years and winning the treble, winning Ballon d 'Or, Of course, the expectation's massive, but I think Rodri's role yesterday, and especially in the semi-final against France, was instrumental. He made it look easy against whoever was pressing. He found spaces, he was able to break lines, but I think at the right time doing the simple things. I think yesterday he just controlled the tempo, and that's what I admire so much about him, that in them big games he's able to have that bravery to get on the ball and just to make Spain tick, and he's done that throughout his career, to be honest.

5:14what's he like to play with Cesar? amazing, you can give him the ball whenever you feel under pressure you just pass to him he will find is that a defender's thing Cesar? yes you have to be clever you have to pass the ball to the ones that they know where to pass and that's the awareness that he has sometimes he plays one time sometimes he makes the right control to the right space and that's amazing to have the chance to train with him. And when I was playing against him, to feel the way he was playing and then to have him as a teammate in the national team. You can see he's a player with that personality.

5:58He wants the ball. He wants to dictate the game. Especially, as you mentioned, against France. And yesterday he was superb. I think, Luis, that's right, isn't it? What I said before about you don't just have to be a Spain or a Manchester City fan to enjoy seeing, I mean, obviously, if you're an Argentinian fan, you wouldn't have, but to see Rodri back at the top of his game. There was a time last season where he just didn't quite look, he looked, there was a stiffness to Rodri almost when he played. Yeah, and it's obviously, you know, it was acceptable, right? Because of everything he had to go through after that ACL.

6:35But Rodri, to me, is everything, obviously Cesar, and by the way, Cesar Felicidades, everything that Spain is all about. It's funny, right? Because I remember, you know, obviously that mythical quote about Sergio Busquets, right? You watch the game, you don't see Busquets. You watch Busquets, you see the whole game. But with Rodri, like, you watch the game, you see Rodri. Like, he's right there. He's just a commander. He's a conductor. I mean, some of the stats from Opta are just absolutely ridiculous. He, like, completed 655 passes at the World Cup. That's the most by any player at a single edition of a Men's World Cup since 1966.

7:11He was also the fourth most when it came to breaking up play as well. And so you see the entire match through Rodri. He is the ultimate general. And I love the fact that Cesar says that about, you know, like, yeah, just give it to him and he'll take care of it because it's so true. And even if you don't have the ball, the biggest obsession with Luis de la Fuente is not possession. It's recovery of possession. That's what makes them so great. And I was there at MetLife yesterday, and I have never seen such an intoxicating team that as soon as they lose the ball, they want to get it as soon as possible.

7:48Argentina couldn't deal, and Rodri is the ultimate leader of that. It was just a magnificent performance and a deserved World Cup win for Spain, 100%. Cesar, if he is a general, is he a very vocal general? Is he a softly spoken general? Does Rodri get angry when things aren't going well? What's he like in the moments where we don't see him, but you obviously did? Yeah, he's a great competitor. I think his mentality, he wants to win. He has won a lot of trophies and he still wants more and he wants to be an important player and he wants to get the ball, even in training. So it's something like I mentioned in the games I did for the BBC with Spain, the wrist defence that they have shown in this World Cup has been amazing.

8:36The way they position and he's there in front of the defence. So he knows where to go, where to recover the ball. Even in the build-up, you can see when they are pressing with two strikers, he drops, he gets three against two. So he understands the game very well. He drops to the side. So he's such an important player. And I think that's the start and the confidence he gives to his teammates, to Simon, to the keeper. He will pass to him. he bounced the ball back so I think he he has shown a great master class of how to play as a single number six which nowadays in football we see less often we normally normally see two double six and he controlled the whole midfielder by his by his own um he he also Adam of course had to manage the president of the USA Donald Trump on the stage which was interesting like I genuinely didn't know what would happen in that moment like would he be really part of the celebrations but sort of rogery kind of he seemed to sort of greet him warmly and then but also kind of find a way to let spain celebrate on their own which i think they wanted to do didn't they yeah it was the politest way i've ever seen anyone quite clearly make clear that the guy should move but it was a very polite way in which he did it was kind of like come on now shuffle over let's let us lift the trophy um but the really funny bit was you then had the fifa president uh gianni kind of had to run across the stage and i wasn't sure whether that was because gianni couldn't have a photo of trump without him in it or whether he was trying to also shuffle him away but in the end roger got to lift the trophy with his teammates which is exactly what should happen yeah and and that's the thing says on a serious note that is quite important isn't it that spain got to have the trophy lift that they wanted because we didn't know that would happen.

10:27Yeah, I mean, you know, you get the trophy you want to share with your team. I think that moment, you know, as a captain, you want to lift the trophy all together with your teammates to celebrate. And the celebrations will go on for a long time because this is, what, five out of the last ten major tournaments Spain have won. Could you give someone else a go, Cesar? And now the celebrations are going in Madrid. I think what I've seen on TV, they are enjoying, I'm sure, since yesterday after the game. After the seven weeks of tournament, which is crazy, such a long tournament. But they fully deserve and now they deserve to celebrate.

11:11And then I'm sure they will get some rest. And because the league is starting soon, it was the top level of football. at the months and we know how it works and if at the start of the season some players don't perform at their level they will be on top of them so now it's time to enjoy to celebrate and to rest because then it's again a very long season Just before we let you go just give us something on Luis de la Fuente on the head coach of course you played under who has now won his first two tournaments the Euros and the World Cup and a real international And the Nations League And the Nations League as well, yeah.

11:49Oh yeah, okay. Did you not hear before when I said can you give somebody else a go? I mean... No, I mean, you know, he has done an amazing job. You know, we had a long period without trophies since the two Euros in a row and the World Cup in between. So, you know, to win the Nations League, they lost one as well final on penalties and to win the Euros and the World Cup and not only to win, it's the way they have done which maybe in the Euros they show real power and you could see they were a very dangerous team. In the World Cup at the beginning, people doubted about them, especially after the first draw against Carverde.

12:30But, you know, we knew that the players, maybe they were not at 100 % at the start of the tournament, but it was a long tournament, so they start building the fitness, you know, they didn't have, they had very few injuries, they didn't have any issues, so they could execute the game plan through every game so they kept going, they kept going. He has been with the subs, sometimes they made the difference. You know, it's such a I think very, very well managed which is not easy and with this talented player the quality and he has done an amazing job because we know how difficult it is to win a major tournament and he has done especially the Euros and the World Cup and the way he has done because only one goal concede is amazing.

13:18Cesar, you just said it's been a very long time since you guys had won it from kind of 2012 to 2024. You don't know what we've been through here. I know, I know. It was nothing for you guys. Don't get angry with me. It was nothing with you. Excuse me, there's a Peruvian on the show as well. I was just talking about our country. I know. I just wanted to say, though, Crossy, just one thing about Luis de la Fuente, which obviously Cesar knows really well. I think the important thing for everybody to know is that this is a man that comes from Basque country, who I remember right after or no, sorry, right before winning the Euros.

14:05I remember him being asked about his philosophy and he very vehemently just said, look, I come from a grassroots background. our commitment to the people we trust in the youth system. And this isn't a pose. It's not a mirage. It is a conviction. Luis de la Fuente is a manager who embodies everything about representing what Spain is all about. So that's why you have the likes of Unai Simones is number one, Mikel Merino being a massive factor because he has created this journey for a very long time. I mean, he won the championships, the Euros with the under-19s and the under-20s. He is very much a believer in the philosophy and the strategy of a national team through representing the culture of that nation.

14:47And that's Spain. I am so jealous in more ways than one of Spain. But like even more aggressively so because they have Luis de la Fuente. I think he's at this very moment, to me, he's the best manager in the game. I just I just I respect him so much. Cesar, thank you so much for joining us. I know you've got to go. it's been great to have you on and great to have you with us at the World Cup. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as we've enjoyed having you. Yeah, I've enjoyed it. Great experience thanks to the whole BBC team because I really enjoy the experience. So hopefully see you soon and thanks for having me.

15:24Sounds great. Cesar Azpilicueta of course, former Chelsea man, former Spain man, played with the great Rodri and under Luis de la Fuente has been brilliant all across the World Cup, giving us that great insight that you can only really get from somebody who's only just walked out, really, of that national team dressing room. Right, it's time to talk about the thing that everyone's talking about, guys, and that's Argentina's behaviour. I'm going straight in with the big question, Steph. I've heard a lot of people say Spain won for Spain and they also won it for football. They did. You don't have to say anything else than that, to be honest, I think.

16:02You see, everybody was supporting Spain, and I probably speak for the majority of all my family, anybody that I see on social media. I think everybody was cheering on Spain last night. More because Spain play football the right way and of course we're still hurting off that defeat against Argentina, which still hurts now when you even speak about it. But I think just in general, just the way that Spain approached that game in comparison to Argentina was what we wanted a World Cup final to be like from Spain's point of view. Do you know, Adam, As the game went on, I started to think, on the Monday nightclub, I feel like we're going to have to have a discussion around Argentina's behaviour.

16:45And for a while, I was like, I'm going to sound bitter. But then the worse it got, the more it felt like the right thing to do. And especially with Paredes in particular, not only Paredes after the full-time whistle. It just got worse and worse, didn't it? Yeah, and it's actually strange. it feels really long time ago now but they they started the game quite passively compared to the way that they did against England where it was kind of within two or three minutes you kind of had that elbow in the head of Elliot Anderson actually with Spain that they were a bit more restrained and there was a couple of fouls in the first half that were bad there was the McAllister one on Danny Olmo and there was also the really horrible one by Tagliafico and Laminia Mal where He kind of fouled him about 15 ways at once, including like a stud down the calf, which was really unpleasant.

17:38But they kind of descended into that anarchy as the game went on. And I think it was as they got tired and also as Spain were like, if you like compare it to going to the dentist, Spain were like the local anesthetic to Argentina's kind of chaos. Yeah. Yeah, and they just kind of numbed the chaos, really, for most of the game until Argentina kind of were finally exhausted and then behind and then, you know, basically bad losers, really, by the end of it. And they were also, I think, exhausted of having the ball played around them. But, you know, I thought the worst bit was really just like facing the other way as Spain went to get up the trophy.

18:22I mean, Spain had even done a guard of honour for the Argentina players, despite the fact that the Argentine players had started a brawl at full time. So Spain had shown grace in victory. But I've never really seen a situation where the world has been united, even when watching a team that possesses players like Messi and Alvarez. But by the end, it really felt like no one wanted them to win. Do you think American fans felt like that as well? I can't speak for Americans. Well, you do live in America. Exactly. Exactly. Where'd you watch the game? I watched the game in a press box, largely surrounded by British people.

19:03But to be fair, no, I think even, you know, looking at the comments section on our website on The Athletic today, which, you know, largely an American audience, I think people found, you know, the way they went about it pretty distasteful by the end. And I think it was also, I think people are pretty reasonable in the sense that nobody expects everyone to play the same. Football would be really boring if everyone played like Spain and everyone was as polite as Spain. You need different styles, you need different approaches, you want channeled aggression, you want an edge. But there was a point there where it just became gamesmanship and even Messi, the point where he was trying to get Cucurea sent off.

19:46That was the worst bit for me. It was like a toddler appealing to his teacher. That's exactly what I wrote down. Miss, like Leo's Miss Mark Mark, he said something to me you need to come in and deal with him that was what it was like Steph, that was the worst bit for me it was like Lionel Messi has reduced himself to that and for anyone who doesn't know it was just as Enzo Fernandes was getting sent off and then Cucurea kind of like half covers his mouth but he's smiling at the same time and not even that kind of arrogant smile that Cucurea can do sometimes No, they were definitely clutching at straws weren't they at that moment in time But I agree with everything that Adam's saying in terms of, I think, sportsmanship.

20:25I think if you give it, you've got to be able to take it. And I think that was a prime example of Argentina not being able to do that. I think when you go back to that game against England and the celebrations in front of people and how they went about it with the sign that they put up, etc. There were so many things that we can speak about, but I think they were just totally outclassed by Spain. And I think that frustration was because Spain outplayed them and they couldn't get the ball off them. They never had a sniffer goal. They had no shots on target, maybe towards the end of the game, an extra time with a few headers from corners and set pieces.

20:57But they couldn't even get Messi to try and kind of get some fight into them. I think they probably took the word literally fight a bit too literal, to be honest. Well, Luis, if that was Cristiano Ronaldo, right, in that final, and he hadn't been involved in the game at all, as Messi wasn't involved in the game. and then he'd done the whole like teacher, teacher, please, please send this person into detention or whatever, he would be getting absolutely slaughtered. So Messi's got to take some serious criticism for that, surely. Oh, 100%. Ronaldo would have been totally vilified. And look, this is somebody that admires Messi more so than so many other people.

21:42I've like written a book about him. I consider him as the greatest player ever, but there was a massive lack of leadership yesterday from Lionel Messi, not just in that moment, but also to what Adam was alluding to about everybody turning their back when Spain was winning. You're the captain. You need to stand up and say, no, look, this is emotional. And granted, it's emotional. It's his last World Cup. Everybody's being nostalgic about it. But Messi at that moment should have stood up with his teammates and said, no, stand up and look at the winners and respect it, just like in 2022 the French had to do with us.

22:16So I was very, you know, saddened by that. Now, I'll just answer that question that you asked Adam earlier, by the way, Crossy, and Steph alluded to it regarding the family. I am married to an American woman who only got herself into football because of me. And year after year, she's had to deal with Aston Villa and England and Peru and all this stuff. So she's been fully invested now in this World Cup. She watched it at home. I was at MetLife and every single minute a text came from her saying, I explicitly hate Leandro Paredes more than life itself. Then the next text, I hate Argentina so much.

22:54They don't deserve this. What are they doing? Et cetera, et cetera. So the hate is universal, undoubtedly, 100%. And I'll just finish with this. I'm South American and it's a universal or it's a continental known thing for South Americans. that in many ways, the strengths and the powers of Argentina, their relentless objective to try and win no matter what, this like hunger to just win no matter the obstacle, it's both comes out out of a little bit of jealousy because South Americans wish they had that kind of tenacity, but it's also their Achilles heel because they cross the line every single time where they don't respect the game.

23:33They don't respect the fundamentals of what it's like to respect the opponent. I mean, I was literally sitting feet away from Argentinian fans who were shouting horrific things at Laminia and Nico Williams every time he touched the ball. It was like, it's this horrible way of trying to approach something when the game's not going your way. And if there's anybody that should be saying, no, we're going to play no matter what, and if we lose, we lose, we'll still respect them, is the players. And they do the complete opposite. They antagonize the situation more and more, and that's just not acceptable.

24:06The part of it that I sometimes struggle with, Steph, here, is that the whole thing around, you know, everybody has a right to try and win the way they want to win. But I wonder if that only really applies to smaller nations or smaller clubs when they don't have the quality of player. Like, for example, when Burnley go to Liverpool. I think it was Klopp era Liverpool. Oh, you're going to say Sunderlander. No, I wouldn't dare with you in the ring. You know, but the only reason I mention it is I remember the game. I remember Burnley, I think it was under Sean Dyche, going and getting a result at Liverpool.

24:41And I think it was Jurgen Klopp, the manager at the time, kind of kicking off a little bit because Burnley had not come to try and play or whatever. You hear it from lots of managers. That's just one example. But this is different, isn't it? Because if you've got Lionel Messi and Enzo Fernandes and Lautaro Martinez and Julian Alvarez, you can't surely you can't approach a game like that and try and win it that way i don't know if that's just me being naive it just feels wrong i think it's it's so hard because obviously they were current world cup champions yes as of yesterday and i think in terms of how they've approached games for a number of years is the way that they've approached it and how their culture is within argentina but i think as a fan and someone that watches these players regularly every single week for club.

25:35They are so talented. I think them players that you named, specifically Messi, we know what Messi's about in terms of probably the world's greatest player to ever have played and to see him on a stage not really get the ball that he deserves to be able to have an influence on the game was because of the tactics of Argentina. I think kind of what you said about Burnley v Liverpool, I think that's because Burnley know that they can't reach that level at that time. But say, for example, if they'd stayed in the Premier League, they would go again with different players and probably the style would adapt.

26:06Whereas I still think that at this moment in time, we are seeing Argentina play the same way. And yeah, it has been effective to a point. But I think when you get to the crux of the highest level of football and you're playing against the best teams, unfortunately, when that line's crossed, teams pick you apart. They outplay you. From a mentality point of view, they're staying within the game and they're being able to control a game that Argentina wanted a game that was full of transitions, full of stoppages, full of fouls, but they couldn't get anywhere near Spain to be able to do that. And yeah, I think for me, when you see the likes of probably Alvarez being really, really frustrated, Enzo Fernandes becoming this different type of player that we don't really see week in, week out at Chelsea, and Messi not really having a hold in the game that he should be able to have, never mind his age, he's still able to do special things.

26:58And we've seen that a lot over this tournament. And I think it becomes disappointing from a football point of view. I suppose the other part of that, Adam, is literally four years ago, they did win the World Cup in a totally different way, unless I massively remember that with rose-tinted glasses. But the final was not like this final, to put it mildly. No, it was a different game. But there were moments in that tournament where they were unpleasant. I remember the game against the Netherlands, which they won, and there was some real needle in that game. And by the way, sometimes that is, you know, I found that incredibly compelling in the England game the other night.

27:37And I don't think we should sort of get to the point where we don't have any of that edge in it. The problem is, and to be fair, I mean, Scaloni after the game basically said we couldn't play them at football. You know, that was the gist of what he said. And I actually think Argentina over-performed in reaching the final. and they were largely bailed out by the genius of Messi. But a lot of those players are past their best kind of in their early 30s and a lot of them are actually quite limited or injury prone or reckless. Players like Lissandro Martinez, sadly injured in the first half, but him and Romero, they're picking up yellow cards.