World Cup: MNC - how England can beat Argentina

19:54Yeah, it was very tough. I think it was the heat that just took out of us, drained us and made us play a different kind of game than what we kind of wanted and expected. But yeah, we managed to get it over the line. The lads dug deep for 120 minutes and yeah, we got the win. Physically, though, what do you feel like when you're in the middle of that? And how different is that feeling to the previous one that you'd had at altitude? Because I'm guessing they're not the same when you're involved. Yeah, I think the Mexico game, I don't think the lads really felt it too much, the altitude. I think that was OK.

20:34Whereas the game just gone then in Miami, yeah, it was just so hot. So, yeah, I was looking forward to the hydration breaks to get a bit of fluids on, cool down. And, yeah, when it was turning into a bit of a basketball game, that's when we were suffering the most. And that's when we had to kind of control the game more, keep the ball in their half. And, yeah, it was a tough game. How difficult is it to wrestle back control when you can feel it getting into a basketball game like that? Yeah, it's tough, very tough. I think it's where the leaders come in there and say, lads, look, listen, we need to control the game, get the ball ticking.

21:13But again, we were chasing the game for a bit, so it's tough to control the game and try and get a goal. So it's just finding the right balance.

21:20Chris Sutton:Nico, a lot has been made about Thomas Tuchel's comments after the game and saying that there was more to come. How did the, I mean, were any of the players offended by his comments or, you know, what was that like as a group? Was that sort of water off a duck's back? Because you feel that the team can play better and haven't hit your level yet. Yeah, look, everyone can agree we can play better. But at the end of the day, it's tournament football and we just need to get over the line, get the wins. And that's what we've done so far. But yeah, we know we can play better. Hopefully it comes in this next game.

21:59But yeah, no one's offended at all. Everyone has their own opinions. and we have trust in the manager, belief in the manager and he's doing a great job. Nico, given how hot it was and the draining effect of playing in that heat and that humidity, how does that change your recovery? Has anything been different since that game to how it would be if you played at a normal temperature? Yeah, there's been a few tweaks. There was a few players off pitch today, just getting a few more extra massages, stretches because, as you said, it was our first game where it went to extra time, so it was more demanding.

22:35And yeah, we just need to do everything we can now to make sure we're 100 % ready for Wednesday. What does playing Argentina mean to you? Bearing in mind, I don't think you were born, were you? The last time England played Argentina in a competitive game? Yeah, no, I don't think I was, but it's a huge game. There's a lot of history behind it. And yeah, we're fired up and we're ready to go. Does that history, I don't mean does it have any relevance to you, but I look back on when people talked to me about football matches before I was born and I'm like, well, I get the sort of historical significance.

23:12Whether I feel it as much, I don't know. So when you're told about the hand of God, when you're told about Beckham's kick, when you're told about Maradona's goal of the century, does it mean something to you or are you thinking, my God, that happened a long time ago, which it did?

23:30it does and it doesn't in a way we're just going there to play our game and win the game but we know they're going to be fired up from it and yeah they're very passionate about stuff like that South Americans so I think we need to match their passion and match their energy and go for them are you looking forward to playing against Messi? I can't wait I know yeah but in a you relish the challenge, I'm guessing. Yeah, it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Yeah. He's coming towards the end of his career. For me personally, he's the best player to ever touch a football pitch. And yeah, I can't wait for the challenge.

24:13I know you've got to go. I'll let you go. Just one more. Before we did the FA Cup final on the BBC, we had a great little piece that had your mum on it and it had the guy that scouted you on it on your journey. and as you sit now, that journey didn't end at the FA Cup final. You're there with a World Cup semi-final for England against Argentina. Does it sink in? I don't really have time to let things sink in as a mid-tournament, but I've come a long way. But yeah, I've still got a long way to go and obviously the people there behind me supporting me are so important and I wouldn't be here without them.

24:52So a big thank you to them. cheers Nico thank you for putting on the headphones appreciate it good luck thank you guys Nico O 'Reilly with us on the Monday Night Club on Fire Live it just takes absolutely everything in his stride Connor even the fact that even the fact that Chris was wanging on about the winners coming from the other half of the draw as he put those headphones on I mean there's timing and there's timing

25:17Conor Coady:yeah and you know what I loved that interview I loved it I loved it chappers honestly I thought it was just even when we're talking about kind of before he was born in the games, but then it just brushes it off and it's all about this and he can't wait to play against Messi. You can see it in his eyes. You can see how he's sat, how laid back he is. This is kind of the generation of today as well, by the way. I think a lot of the generation, especially when you're as good as him and as good of a full-back as he is, I think a lot of them are like that. And I love that. I thought it was brilliant and I think it just fills us all with confidence going into Wednesday.

25:44Conor Coady:I might have inspired him, Mark.

25:46Chris Sutton:That may be the little kick up the backside the team need to lead him to the World Cup. That may be the moment. when the history books are written people will say that that is the key moment that chris sutton got persuaded nico o'reilly that he that spain were going to win the world cup go on rory you gotta come in is it like the rivalry thing is interesting because if you listen to the argentine players rodrigo de paul and stalloni today have both kind of said look let's try and remember this is a football match it's not a rerun of the falklands um But if you listen to them, they really regard England as one of their great rivals.

26:24Because that's kind of in Argentine culture. For players who haven't ever seen England play, not many of them can even remember that game in 2002. I wouldn't have thought. There might be a couple. Henderson might remember it, I suppose. But also, that game in 2002 was not the greatest, really. It was on at five o 'clock in the morning as well. It was indoors in Sapporo. It felt like it was being played in a leisure centre because I was there. Altrane, I know, is a lovely place, but if your leisure centres look like that, then you're trying to practice. I think the one with the David Beckham penalty.

26:58That doesn't feel like that. I mean, it's the previous two, isn't it? Yeah. Although that one is special to me because I was doing my university first year exams that year. And it was on in the morning. It was obviously Japan Korea. The time difference meant that the games were in the morning. And they paused the exam to tell us that Beckham had scored. which is genuinely a real failure of education.

27:19Chris Sutton:What sort of Mickey Mouse joint was that? I mean, good to me. Terrible business. That wasn't a high-end uni then. Was it a polytechnic? The polytechnic is too fine, weren't Chris? It wasn't, no. Channels are gone. They did, they stopped the exam halfway through the night just to let you know. David Beckham has given England the lead against Argentina. Were you saying though, Rory, Were you sort of suggesting, I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, and hinting it seems a little bit different the other way, the way that Argentina are viewing this, than from the English perspective? It means something else for Argentina, without a shadow of a doubt.

28:04Politically? Yeah, but I mean it is. Every single song includes the line, Pibes de los Marvinas. Every single one, the kids of the Falklands. And you can get into the history of that and the geopolitics of it are irrelevant. But that is what the Argentines think. That is in every single song. Their main motivation for the players, I think, and it's why they were so emotional against the team that you put an asterisk against, Egypt, for just being Egypt chapters. Obviously, you dismissed the entire nation there. But I think they were emotional because they think it is their duty to get Messi another World Cup.

28:39that is the main motivating factor for Argentina here. That is what they are doing. That's the story they're telling themselves. But I think for the fans, and the players are clearly conscious of it, England play a role. The only way I can express it, I think, is that England think Argentina is a football rivalry. Argentina do not think England is a football rivalry. They think it's something else. The other great thing about this tie is the fact that it is rare, that it isn't, you know, and there are several teams and it feels like England play an awful lot. Croatia being one of them, for example.

29:12But the fact that they now do get Argentina at a World Cup feels momentous because it is such a rare fixture in world football. Yeah, they played them in 2005 in a friendly. England won 3-2 in Geneva. And this is one of Mark Ogden's, a friend of the show's, pet subjects. They don't play them because it's a really edgy tie. it's not, if you invite Argentina to play in England, I mean England would never go and play in South America which I think is maybe something they should do a bit more but they won't go, there's not the commercial reasons to do it if you play Argentina you know it's a full on kind of quite hostile derby I think that is part of the reason they don't play each other in friendlies because it wouldn't be very friendly so it does feel, it does have that rarity value, you're absolutely right and it gives it, I guess, a sense of momentousness but it does yeah you're right you're completely right chap as it gives it that rarity value but the flip side is that the fans don't often encounter each other and this has been and i would assume that all of your experiences have been the same as mine on this that this has been an incredibly friendly world cup like the ticket pricing obviously is ridiculous but there have been no issues at all with having fans mixed together in the stadiums because it is really friendly it's very family friendly seen so many kids with those um you know those headphones that babies wear.

30:30There's loads of that about. And I fundamentally don't think England and Argentina will be like that at all in Atlanta. And there is the FIFA, I think, have said they're not going to segregate the stand.

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31:34Conor Coady:I feel like the American dream is alive but not well.

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31:47Five nights for...

31:48Chris Sutton:My favourite World Cup moment? It's the first World Cup I properly remember watching. Argentina 78. The ticker tape, Mario Kempes, Ari Hahn scoring goals from miles out and always one of my favourite World Cup moments, Archie Gemmel's great goal for Scotland against the Dutch. What makes the World Cup such a special tournament is the atmosphere, the colour, it is a meeting of the nations and of people who love football. The People World Cup 2026. Listen on BBC Sounds. At the People World Cup 2026. The Football Daily Podcast.

32:24Conor Coady:With Mark Chapman.

32:26Chris Sutton:Listen on BBC Sounds. Let's focus on actually what might happen on the pitch here, shall we? How many positions do you think are up for grabs? Oh, blimey. I think the right side is interesting for England. Would it be Madueke or Saka? I suspect Saka may get a starting berth in that. Now Rhys James is fit. That's the big one, really, though, with Rhys James being fit and natural right back. Does he move Konza inside alongside Gehi, which I think we would have all agreed at the start of the tournament would have been the preferred partnership? But John Stones, he surprised me. Maybe that says a lot about me.

33:15Chris Sutton:But the level of his performance at this World Cup and the leadership which he's brought to that back line, that's not an easy decision for Thomas Tuchel, that. Well, let's say you played Stones and Gay, and then what you do with concert, you play concert at right back, but then if you play concert at right back, and there seems to be a growing kind of noise around maybe trying Morgan Rodgers on the right for just a bit of power and verve and a bit of freshness, I suppose. But I suppose, Connor, if you then play Morgan Rodgers on the right, he'll want to come inside, so you'll need a bit more from your fullback, won't you, if that's what you do.

33:50It goes back to, and I know this feels like a theme when talking about England and all our build-ups. I know it's the case with a lot of football, but so many of the pieces are interlocking. And it depends who you want to start with by how you fit the others in. When it comes to the wide positions in particular.

34:08Conor Coady:No, 100%. And I think that's what's been so good about the tournament and Thomas Hugal, that he can mix up and he can change. We've seen with the substitutes the other night when players are coming on. It's not like for like, players are changing, they're going into different positions. but I just think with how England have played in the tournaments, I don't think he veers away too much. The one thing you can't do at this moment in time is affect Jude Bellingham. You can't affect Jude Bellingham. You need him doing what he's doing every single game. So if Morgan Rodgers, who I think is a wonderful footballer, by the way, then goes and plays on the right and we have him coming inside and then you're moving Jude over a little bit and play with two tens, you're then affecting Jude Bellingham.

34:40Conor Coady:You need Jude Bellingham to have the free roll that he's had because he plays football like a street footballer. He's unbelievable in terms of what he does. So the one thing we don't want to knock is the effect Jude Bellingham has on this team because we need him for two games. That's what it is. We need him for two games to go and win this tournament for us with Harry Kane. That's as simple as that. So I think he lays structure down Thomas Tuchel in terms of the whole tournament with his wingers. So whether it's Maduecki or Saka, whether it's Gordon or Rashford, they're his wingers. They're the four wingers that I think we're going to see.

35:09Conor Coady:I think Gordon will play and I think Saka will play on the other side. I think changing kind of the style of play to attend being wide to come inside then becomes tough. and it affects too many other positions on the pitch for me.

35:19Chris Sutton:And it's coming inside into bodies. I mean, everything which I've seen of Argentini, you target their weak areas and their weak areas are in the full-back areas. And Doi absolutely destroyed Molina. You know, he might make a change. I think Montiel can play right back. But you look at the left-hand side as well. And football often comes down to duels. And we have better wingers than they have full-backs. So I think it's a case of simplifying it. 1v1s and get the ball out wide and let them do the things. I think in that central area, it's going to be so congested. Paredes plays just in front of the back four and tries to knit things together, but cleans things up in that midfield area.

36:05Chris Sutton:But it's so tight and congested in there, where Jude Bellingham may not get the space, which he has done in other games. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. and I wonder whether it doesn't strike me as being the obvious time to start switching about your tactics and getting Morgan Rodgers out wide when you're in a World Cup semi-final. I think the choice is Saka, who came on at half-time in Ence Norway, didn't he? Yes. Yeah. Or was it later on? No. Half-time. It was half-time. So he did 45 minutes in Ence Norway. That would imply that he's getting closer and closer to something resembling full fitness.

36:41So do you do Saka for an hour, then bring Madweke on, or do you basically flip it and do Maduweko to try and wear Talia Fico down and then bring Saka on to do the damage? Is it just fitness with Saka?

36:53Chris Sutton:I mean, I don't understand this one because he's been fit for a while now, hasn't he? So how long? I mean, is it fatigue from the season? I honestly don't know. But there does seem something not quite right there where you think we're going to have to keep nursing him along. Well, Tuttle obviously feels he's not fully, because I think Conor's completely right. if Saka is fully, absolutely 100 % fit, he starts every game, surely. There's no disrespect to Nani Maduweke, but Saka is ahead of him for Arsenal and he's ahead of him for England. So I think you can make a case that you start Saka and say, if you can do an hour, do an hour.

37:30Or you could say, well, actually, we'll use you as a finisher, as Arteta would say, and Maduweke can try and soften up Talifiko first, which is not exactly, you know, Nani Maduweke is not a bad option to have to do that. and then you bring Saka on to kind of conclude the game effectively. But I think that is a question. What do we think is the situation with Declan Rice? Because he hasn't looked perfectly fit throughout the tournament either. Isn't the report that, you know, he had a stomach virus after Mexico and therefore... He and Dennis has had a bad stomach. I don't want to know about that.

38:03Montezuma's revenge. I really, really don't want to know about that, Chris. That would tip me over the edge, to be honest. It would be that he had a stomach bug and was in bed for, I don't know, the majority of the time in between Mexico and Norway, I think. That seems to be the view from that. And the other thing with Saka is it seems like he could start but not finish or not start and finish Conor. That seems to be how he's been used.

38:34Conor Coady:Yes, it does. And I actually think he's been managed really well. he's obviously got some sort of issue, hasn't he? There's obviously something there, because then I'll go back to Rory mentioned it again about if he was fit. But I actually think he's been managed really well. I think he's managed the whole situation of players who are coming in after a long season. We forget it's after a long Premier League season. Them two boys, Declan Rice and Bakayo Saka, have had the season of their lives, by the way. So he's had to manage them, and he's managed them through the tournament into a semi-final.

38:57Conor Coady:Now, if we see Saka go and start on Wednesday night, score the winner or score a goal or get an assist or something like that, and then he goes into the final, he's been managed unbelievably well by Thomas Tuchel. so I think he's gone about it the whole right way. Did we want to see Bakaio Saka more? Of course we did because he's a world-class footballer but at the same time, how he's managed his substitutions, how he's managed players coming in. We can talk about Maduweka who wants, he's gone in there and done a job and he's been part of England getting to a semi-final of a World Cup so I think the way they've all been managed has been really, really good.

39:24Chris Sutton:You know with Declan Rice, Declan Rice is the key to England beating Argentina in my opinion and also what's key from him, we know he can do that but he has to be so, so disciplined because Messi is the key for Argentina getting on the ball. And, you know, I think Thomas Tuchel will play with two sixes, but he needs eyes in the back of his head. And he just should not move. That's where he looks to pick the ball up. And I think when they made the substitution, Messi went out wide right, but he still does what he wants. But that's the key to stopping Argentina. It's stopping Messi, and that's what Rice has to do.

40:01As the current footballer, Conor, When you saw the second half and into extra time and the substitutions that were made and all the little tactical changes that were made, is that quite not simple to take on board if you're on the field? But is that all part and parcel of the process of preparing for a game or can it become too complicated? And I ask that because Hamza Khalid Lunat, who writes really good tactical stuff in the Times, was saying that Elliot Anderson had played in four different positions in that performance for England. And Thomas Tuchel's quotes on Bellingham sound really complicated to me.

40:42So I know this is a very long-winded question, but I'll just read the quotes and then you can answer it. So Tuchel said, Jude started on the right side, number 10, when we did the changes. at half time we put him in the left number eight so more of a number eight or number 10 that has some meters deeper in the field that wasn't ideal for us because i want him as high as possible so then we put reese james in at number six that freed up elliot anderson back as the number eight and jude back on the right number 10 when we put morgan rogers on because we needed reese as a right defender we then put elliot back as the number six and rogers at the number eight and defensively as a double six.

41:20Conor Coady:Yeah, that sounds really long-winded, but the big thing I take from that is that the positions aren't changing. The players are changing, but the positions aren't changing, if you know what I mean. So you just mentioned there a left six, a left eight, sorry, a right ten, a number six. That has never changed. So whether it's Elliot Anderson in the six, Elliot Anderson in the left eight, Jude Bellingham in the right ten, the positions aren't changing, the players are. It sounds complicated what you're saying, but when you have players as good as these boys, they can go and do it, and I can tell you now for a fact they'll be working on it every single day in training so Thomas Tuchel will be telling players where he believes they'll come on where he believes they'll play where he needs to be if he moves them so we just mentioned there about Jude Bellingham he needs him as high up the pitch as he can so his 10th position is on the right hand side of the pitch he's 8th position to the left hand side of the pitch he's 6th is obviously in front of the two centre backs so that was the biggest thing I took from that and also the other thing I love from Thomas Tuchel is and what it shows to his whole squad is he trusts his squad he trusts every single player within that group now you can mention a couple of lads who haven't played and obviously Kobe Mane who hasn't come on and a couple of lads who haven't played.

42:17Conor Coady:But we see big Dan Bairn coming on to see out games now. We see players being used in different roles because he trusts them in that role. So it can become complicated if the players aren't as good as them for me.

42:27Chris Sutton:What's the difference between a six and eight and a ten though? That's just ten yards, isn't it? But they are different, aren't they? You know they're different. He's just being difficult, Conor. Well, they are. I'm not being difficult, but I do think sometimes we sort of go over the top with this sort of stuff. If Rhys James comes on and he wants him to play in that role in front of the back four and he moves Elliot Anderson up one, that's all the instruction is.

42:58Chris Sutton:These players are top international players. What role in front of the back four? Well, he plays as a pivot, number six, Rhys James. There you go, you've just said it. Well, I know that the difference is 10. Stop celebrating, you fool. But that's the whole point. You just said it. I asked you what role he played in and you went the six. I'm tired. Can I go? I can't imagine earlier that Tuttle's substitutions kind of meet with everyone's approval. I thought he confused things a bit with his substitutions against Norway and then spent quite a lot of the game figuring out problems of his own making.

43:39would be my honest feedback. It did feel confusing. I have to, like, at times, Connor, I know you're saying the role is the same, but the personnel changed. But it did feel like it muddled it at times. And they did go through a period in the second half where they were really under the cosh. And you did wonder how much the shifting of the pieces would have contributed to that.

44:05Conor Coady:Yeah, I know what you mean. But at the same time, we're all talking about kind of the game being flat at times and England can play better or England can do things better he's trying to make a change he's trying to make things better so we could sit there and he doesn't make a change and we go oh he's not made a change but then when he does try and make a change we go oh he's complicating it so let's pick one so I'd rather sit there and go god the England man is having a right go in he's making change and Rhys James is coming on there and it might complicate it it might become a bit complicated but then players will understand the roles going on in my opinion that's where it stands in my opinion but Connor if we didn't criticise him whatever he did I don't get involved in the criticising Do you know there's a big thing being made at the moment that England haven't had a player who's scored in this tournament who's played in the Premier League this season but the interesting thing Rory when you look at Kane and Bellingham actually is that the number of minutes they have played this season they are not in the top five or six Harry Kane has played the eighth most minutes of any England player at this tournament.

45:09And Jude Bellingham, who's had a couple of injury problems, is down at 19th. Oh, that's annoying. Why? Because I wrote a piece about that on Sunday and I didn't spot that. That's really irritating. Thanks. OK. Sorry about that. Yeah, no, it is really interesting. That hadn't occurred to me. But yeah, there has always been a logic that the grind of the Premier League does work against England in major tournaments. In fact, I think that even predates the existence of the Premier League, the sense that English football is spit and sawdust, blood and bullets, all that stuff. That by the time everyone gets to the summer, they're exhausted.

45:44How do you measure that, though? You can't measure that. You can in terms of minutes played.

45:49Chris Sutton:Well, it depends how far you go, who wins at the level of the player. High-intensity sprints. so so are you quibbling with the idea that human beings get tired Saliba how many games has he played for Arsenal this season lots yeah there you go so he's played a lot of games it's a mentality thing so the point that I made that I now regret in my piece is that I think that the fact that Bellingham's at Real that Trent's at Real that Rashford and Gordon are at Barcelona for given value at Barcelona and that Kane's at Bayern is kind of that's a sign to me that all those major clubs have kind of recognised that the Premier League is the gold standard, that they want a little bit of Premier League in the way they play, because if you can't beat them, you join them.

46:35But you're right that there might be a physical benefit as well, that those players are not having to grind out and not having to spend 38 weeks of a year pushing other people at corners, which is what English football is now. That is probably an advantage.

46:48Chris Sutton:You can't set a gold standard when the gold standard is the team which wins the Champions League. But they benefit, Chris, in the Champions League final, we said that PSG benefited because Dembele had only played 14 games in the league. And Tvarek Stelja was something that was a little bit higher than that. It's such an excuse. The Premier League has the most money. You make excuses every way for the Premier League. If you get, Conor, you have been in the squads, Conor, at tournaments. If you have had a slightly less arduous season, that can only benefit. Yes, Declan Rice, who's right up there near the most minutes, as is Elliot Anderson, as is Esri Concer.

47:30Look, Concer and Rice both won trophies this season. You can look at it that way. You're winning trophies. You're playing all the games. Yes, you arrive with the buzz, but you're also arriving having had a very long, hard season. You can make a case either way, but if you're a bit fresher, that surely has to help.

47:47Conor Coady:100%. 100%. And I think I'm not siding with anybody, but I think I understand what Rory's saying in terms of it. obviously the other major leagues as well get winter breaks, don't they? In terms of they get time off at Christmas and they get the bits going on there. So they miss a couple of weeks. So it does make a difference because the Premier League, for me, did you say that Dembele played 14 league games? I'm sure that the stat was that Dembele started 14 league games. Wow, that's... I didn't know that. That's a crazy stat considering he plays for PSG.

48:13Chris Sutton:Premier League teams can, you know, they can tailor the team. You know, that's down to the manager, that, isn't it? I mean, it's... Arsenal didn't tailor it though, did they to go and win the Premier League? Yeah, but they can do. We can't feel sorry for Premier League players. They choose to play. No, no, they don't feel me sorry

48:32Conor Coady:because I think every player would say at some point in their career they want to play in the Premier League. Of course they do because it's the greatest league in the world. But it does come with them situations that you hit a tournament at the end of it and it's totally different to other European leagues because of the less games, the breaks that they have in the mid-season. They get looked after in that point as well.

48:48Chris Sutton:I just think psychologically, I mean, psychology-wise, I wouldn't like any of you three talking to the England players if you're telling them they're all tired all the time. Oh, all of a sudden now you've got... I'm just telling you, just leave that. Push that to the side. Because you welcomed Nico O 'Reilly with France or Spain are going to win the World Cup, you now feel you've got the psychological advantage, do you? Well, that was disappointing for me, that was. Are you still on LinkedIn as a motivational speaker? I am. Are you? Don't just wonder. Are you surprised? I'm not. I'll let that sink in.

49:33That's it. Live commentary of both World Cup semifinals this week on Five Live. France against Spain on Tuesday night from eight. England against Argentina Wednesday night from eight. Kelly will have all the build-up both nights from seven o 'clock.

49:53The 2023 Ballon d 'Or France footballer is Lionel Messi. The winner is Cristiano Ronaldo.

50:01Conor Coady:This is the story of the greatest rivalry in the history of sport. A rivalry that split football into two fates for a generation.

50:11Chris Sutton:There could be no, oh, Messi and Ronaldo are both great players. There had to be one that was better.

50:15Conor Coady:They 100 million percent pushed each other to the next level. You know, we were the lucky ones who got to see it. I'm Steve Crossman. This is Sporting Giants' Messi v. Ronaldo. Listen first on BBC Sounds.

50:30Chris Sutton:The United States is about to mark its 250th anniversary. And so on the Global Story podcast from the BBC, we're telling surprising tales of American influence on the world stage and in ordinary people's lives all across the globe. We have this ability to export our story and a lot of people have bought it.

50:50Conor Coady:I feel like the American dream is alive, but not well.

50:53Chris Sutton:From the BBC, it's the United States at 2.50. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.