World Cup: Thomas Frank on international management, England & hydration breaks

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1:06Discover the V-Series lineup at cadillac.com. The Football Daily at the FIFA World Cup 2026 with Steve Crossman. Listen on BBC Sounds. Hello there, welcome to the Football Daily podcast coming to you today from Bubby's Diner in downtown New York City. We've got a fascinating chat with the former Brentford and Spurs manager Thomas Frank on the way from our daily programme, which is Breakfast in America, which is live on Five Live and BBC Sounds every weekday from 1 until 3pm. Former Scotland striker Chris Boyd and the Athletics Adam Crafton were also with us. Delighted to say that we've got the former Brentford and Spurs manager Thomas Frank with us.

1:46Now, Thomas, I know you're a manager and perhaps we will get into this, who takes on a lot from other sports, but I hear the World Cup won't be the only big tournament you'll be taking in this summer you're going to be at the Tour de France as well. Yeah that's a little different I always found that very interesting since you know just following while I was growing up and now I had the opportunity to come down and watch it up closely so I'm looking forward to that. Are you studying as well is there anything from a coaching perspective that you'll be thinking about even in an individual sport or just for fun?

2:19No you know unfortunately the way my brain works I will always study a tiny bit in terms of see if there is anything that could give me an edge, either as a leader or structure or how you build a team, because it's an individual sport, but still as a team. What about at this World Cup then? What are you most looking forward to kind of getting into and experiencing? I think first and foremost, I think the first round has been in the group stages, has been amazing in many, many aspects. I think we've already got some fantastic stories. The top dogs, the big players, they have definitely entered the tournament.

2:59So really, really happy with that in every aspect. I must say I love that Messi score hat-trick in the first game. I think that's incredible. It's not, you know, with a fantastic finish outside the box and then, you know, a tap in over it, you know, at the second goal. And the third goal is just a signature finish. OK, I think that's a really interesting launching pad for us then for this hour is the idea, Thomas, of how as a coach, you find a way to get the best out of a megastar, an individual megastar without impacting the team environment. Because hasn't it been interesting to see Messi absolutely fly into the tournament, Erling Haaland, Harry Kane, less so Cristiano Ronaldo.

3:43So, you know, and Mbappe as well. John McGinn. John McGinn, of course, Chris. I thought he was good, by the way, John McGinn. just been saying everybody needs a John McGinn Thomas don't they I agree I think by the way I think John McGinn is a fantastic player I think he's been really really good for Villa over many seasons and it seems like do you can you get something better but every single time he's out of your team you miss it I think that's a good healthy sign so let's talk about the mega stars then including John McGinn Chris I'm not I'm not forgetting John McGinn what what is how do you do that then because obviously the team is everything and yet you want your individual stars to shine Yeah, I think it's, I think of course it's a challenge, because I think you always want your team to play in a specific way, but you also know that some of the megastars, and I think that's the big thing, when they add value to the team in terms of goals or the decisive actions on the pitch, they're crucial to be there.

4:39And by the way, I don't think there's one megastar that don't want to win. So they all know that they need to do a certain amount of work. And actually, if you looked at Messi in the first game, he was pressing and running like I haven't seen him for a while. I think Harry Kane, it's clearly, compared to Euros two years ago, that he's fit and he's coming in a fantastic place. And I think that's very, very important to be aware of that, because if you're not fit and you're struggling with injury, it's difficult to perform. So he is in a fantastic place. Also, the way he pressed and the way he was all over the pitch, I think is interesting as well.

5:17So I think it's about make sure you have the structure right, offensively and defensively, for the team. And then know, and everyone knows, if you get the top players to shine, then there's a bigger chance for the team to have success. Hi, Thomas, it's Adam here. I was really struck, as you just said there, about how lean Harry Kane looked yesterday. I mean particularly if I think back to some of those other tournaments over the last few years he's looked he's never been overweight or anything like that but just a bit heavier and I'm just curious from a coach's point of view at the end of a long season what kind of physical shape do these top players now actually tend to be in or do they almost need the pre almost like a mini pre-season before the tournament during these training camps before an international tournament because a lot of these big players have played so many games but on the basis of this first round of games they look so fit i think it's it's always individual based so for example a player like declan rice there's a physical monster uh seems like he just keep going he's in his best age uh you know he is playing with high intensity through almost 60 games and he is he seems to be robust.

6:26That's one thing, but even him need to get a little downtime to refresh, to be ready to go again over the next six, seven weeks, hopefully eight games for England. And then there's Harry Kane, that's a little bit older. Still a very good, how can you say, physical player, but not the same as Declan Rice. But you can see now he's coming in here, and he's completely top fit. And every single time a player's top fit, it's just easier to perform. In that sense. So some players, depending on where they are at the end of the season, need to, like a mini pre-season. Other players, we need to get them down and then get them ready to go again.

7:06And then I think there will be minimal training throughout the season, throughout the tournament. I know you're very much into what I'm going to call the All Blacks philosophy of no bad eggs at this time on Five Live. It might have a slightly different... Do you want me to leave? It might have a slightly different name. Yeah, you need to say the right phrase. Can I say that on Five Live or not? No. No? I was just, you know, after 10 years in England, I'm being too polite. So, okay, fair enough. After the watershed, maybe. I mean, I think no bad eggs does sum it up. Yeah. But I think it sort of leans into the discussion as well, Thomas, around the way that, like, if you were managing internationally, and I'm really interested to know in general, if it's something that potentially appeals to you in the round anyway, but the way that you put a squad together and the way that England have put this squad together there's clearly a lot of thought that's going into personality and international management yeah no no doubt I think I think no matter if it's England or France or Denmark I know Denmark is not there but of course I follow them closely as well no matter what nation it is the squad the way you select a squad I think is so crucial if you want success in a tournament because if you have we all know for all of us is the ego that get in the way but if you have too many egos in a squad and they don't understand their role you know maybe they say they understand but they don't actually understand with their behaviors and six seven weeks is a long time in a camp where you get absolutely good zero minutes and you need to train hard when all the other guys are relaxing and you're doing the same small-sided games and passing drills.

8:51And, you know, no matter how good the coaches are to be creative, it's a lot of the same. So I think if you look at England, I think Thomas Tuchel have made some brave choices. I don't know enough of the England personalities that's been left out or not, so I don't want to go into that debate, so maybe know more about that. But I think there is something in you need players in their best position. And I think it's a privilege that England have six number 10s that are, you know, international high level. And he left three of them out. Because I think actually that is clever. Because you can only use three.

9:30Now he got three. Three different profiles in Rogers, Bellingham and Essay. And of course Palmer and Foden and Gibbs-White are the three others he left out. So I think that's important. Yeah, I think that's a really, really good point because, you know, you speak, especially Foden and Palma, they would expect to play, you know, and if they're not playing, you know, you're not saying that they're bad eggs, but they're that used to playing and they'll come to this England squad, I'm playing, I want to be playing. And there's nothing wrong with that. But, you know, when you've got other players ahead, and as Thomas says, you're training for the sake of training a lot of the times as well, trying to keep top up your fitness because you're not getting the minutes in the match, it can be difficult for these guys.

10:09and that's where I think you've got to say that Thomas Tunko has been really really brave because to leave them out yes there would be some questions asked if England go on and win it then he's done the right thing I think round the corner if England get knocked out there will be questions asked of why he didn't take them because these are the guys that can make a difference but he's selected a squad that he feels can help England get to this stage where they can go and win the World Cup because they've been so close recent years, but it's making that final step to get there and he's went about it in a different way I think when you look at the England squad as well, there seems to be a real team spirit this time maybe before there was every player in football has got an ego maybe there was the egos were there and they didn't gel together as well as they should have as a team, but looking at it now I think it's totally different, I think there's a feel-good factor in this team.

11:08And there's also, Thomas, I don't know what you think of it, but I think the players are fearful of Thomas, and I think that has to be a good thing, because he's shown it doesn't matter who you are. If you are not performing, you'll be left out. I think a couple of things. One thing is, it's not always the 23 or 23, 26 best players that make the best squad. Sometimes it's to have the right types that make the best squad. And I agree, it seems like the cohesion in the squad is very good. I also like to say I think that Southgate did a very good job in the last three tournaments. So we have an England team that now that the whole nation think maybe can go the last step because they've been so close twice.

11:47And the last World Cup they lost on quarterfinals in an even game to France. So there is a foundation that hopefully is sharpened, but also some younger players coming in with some freshness and, you know, in a way no fear like Anderson in the midfield. I think he's done a fantastic job. O 'Reilly left back as well. So I think that gave a little bit of freshness. Gordon, bigger role as well. So I think that. And then, of course, Kane, as we just talked about before, in his best shape. And right now, he's playing number six, number 10, and number nine. So he's playing number six as Pirlo. So he's a quarterback as Pirlo, you know, playing as a six.

12:2310, he's defining, I'm not saying, another player. That's Kane. And then himself as a nine. That's a pretty good combination. Thomas, I'm interested for you as a coach, if you were watching that game yesterday, preparing possibly to play England in the next game or the latter stages, what were the things you saw where you thought we might be able to get at them in this respect or we might be able to take advantage of this or that? What were the things that England can still clean up? I think first, I think it's extremely positive they scored four goals. I think that's the big thing. And they have threat from different players.

12:58So Radford's coming in, Saka's coming in, Both of them could start depending on the game. So now they have fresh players coming off the bench to go on the pitch. And I think another one, they were very, very good on set pieces. So especially attacking, creating a lot of damage against Croatia. Of course, you can say the two goals they conceded, you need to look a little bit into that. But I actually had the feeling that they were in control, England, a little bit out of nothing. Croatia they just scored two goals. One almost better than the other. So I don't think they were bad defensively I must say in that sense.

13:38And then you can say when they got 3-2 up and they should have been 4-2 up. In minutes 75 there was a spell of 10 minutes where they, which is natural, is also the momentum of the game. Where they drop back a bit and you see there was a little bit, they're not completely in control. And then Tuchel, a quick reaction, Bellingham out, James in midfield, Jets pens right back and then it was like taking out. So you can see in the first half they struggled a little bit in the build-up but that's natural if the team comes you need to find the opening there fresh. There was a few times where the creator won the ball and could go the other way but I think actually they changed it fine through the game.

14:19I was watching the coverage on Fox last night here in America. And Zlatan Ibrahimovic said after the game that the moment he most admired about Harry Kane in the game was the block that he made right at the end of the match, you know, throwing himself in the way of that ball. And it kind of links into what you were saying, Thomas, about Harry Kane effectively being, we always talk about him as like, oh, he's a nine and a half. But like you were saying, he was an eight, a six, a five. At times he was probably a one as well. I'm really interested as a manager, because we've seen that a few times over the years with England players.

14:53I think about when David Beckham basically just dragged England over the line in a qualifier against Greece when he scored the free kick at the end. As a manager, when you're watching one of your players do everything, is there any part of you that thinks, well, I might just need to ask him not to do everything all the time because the danger is that he might do too much? Yeah, I understand what you say. I think every fan, every manager, everyone involved in football, when you see a player and you see the star player, in this case Harry Kane, you know, doing a block close to goal, I think everyone will just, you know, it's fantastic to just see, okay, that is the willingness and determination to win, you know, everything on the line you want to win.

15:41And I think you saw the same a little bit from Bellingham. There was also a situation where Croatia was almost playing through. and Bellingham as a number 10 was all the way down. I think, I can't remember the Croatian player, he was doing James. And if Bellingham was not there, that could be a massive chance. So I think those two for the number 9 and number 10, 9 and 10, I think it's crucial. I think there's the one thing where they could do too much is if Kane or Bellingham are all the way down as a 6 or lift back in the build-up, then sometimes we lack them in the other end where they should do the job and score the goals.

16:15but I think they found a good balance last night. I think that's the key thing though, Tom. Thomas, when you take... Tom! Tom, I'm just giving you a Scottisher. That's no problem. I think that's the key thing though. Big players, intelligent players will drift into areas and try and create space for themselves and make things happen. You've then got to go and fill that space that they have vacated. And last night, when Harry Kane was dropping down, there was always somebody running ahead of the ball. When he dropped in, there was people coming in, there was players coming in the pitch as well.

16:44maybe the superstars get criticised why is he going there but the other ones around him have to adapt and go and fill these areas and then all of a sudden you've got a team that clicks together because Harry Kane's dropping into these areas to drag centre backs with him he's hoping that they're going to come in there and then the likes of Bellingham can get forward it was Maddie Wakey last night can't sack it off the wide areas go through the middle those runs that we've seen with the Barcelona team back in the day so top players make themselves virtually impossible to be marked they'll drift in areas but the key thing for me is after that their teammates have to identify the space and go and exploit that I think that's an extremely good point but also Kane do a little bit the same like in Bayern Munich where he drops all the way down and I think they had like a box in the middle so it was like Andersen, Rice, Kane and Bellingham so they could rotate almost like they wanted but Andersen was always down there and then Kane dropped down but I think the big thing is they had deep runners in Gordon and Marueke so they could play the balls in behind and be a threat there.

17:46Because we don't have a threat, it's easy to lock them down because Croatia did go man-man most of the time. Here's one for you, Thomas. How would you, as a coach, deal with what I can only think to describe of the quarterization of this World Cup? Because obviously here in America, every time we have the inverted commas hydration breaks, we just get loads of adverts, and it's obviously different in the UK, and the BBC and ITV are approaching it in different ways, as they would do. But as a manager, how would you approach that? I think personally, as a football manager or a football person, I think we shouldn't have the hydration break.

18:25But the way I think I'm pragmatic, okay, we got it. Now we need to get the most out of it. So three minutes, I will definitely, and it seems like most of the team has done that, organise it and structure it. So probably the first minute, you will get the players to get the water, hydration, and all the different things they take. And then you most likely have a minute where you can come with your tactical input. And you always prepare a bit for that and things can change quickly. So that can be for the whole team and can also be a little bit of motivational. Hey, now we go again, keep the pressure, keep the intensity.

18:59And then the last minute, the players prepare themselves, you can hand one-to-one with the players. So that's how I will structure, of course, get the tactical boards out. to be honest I don't mind it because I think you've got to look after a player of welfare we've heard that for a long long time now as well and when the heat is at the level it is over here, we've seen it the last day of the Premier League season as well, I mean it's very difficult to ask players to go at that level for 90 minutes, 95, 96 97 minutes so again Thomas, when you look at managers are always looking for little breaks to get information on their team this one's been created for them it's given them another opportunity to go and work their magic I agree that's the thing so now it's there then I definitely would use it and it's also the time where you can it's the same you're on top in the first half and then you go in and then the opponent coach change and you go out and everything you said in there has changed and it's difficult to get the information onto the pitch so now you have two more halves or quarters whatever we call it three breaks where you can get your information on board and you can change things.

20:09Plus, it also breaks the rhythm. So it just gives another dimension to it, definitely. Chris, do players want instructions at that point in the game? Or do they actually just want to be left alone with the plan? Obviously, unless you're losing 3-0 after 22 minutes. I think Thomas will probably agree on me with this one. I think players nowadays, managers will give them their information. maybe in the past players would take responsibility upon themselves when they go on a football pitch, they will solve it. That's when you're asking for leaders and your captains to make decisions and help players on the pitch.

20:44Whereas now I think a lot of players look to the manager because they can then blame him. They can then turn around and say, oh, it's the manager's fault, he didn't tell me to do this, he told me to do that. Whereas when you go on that pitch, you've got to take it upon yourself. And for me, I think it's something, all I hear is, oh, we don't have enough leaders and there's a lack of leaders in teams. That's what a leader is. When there's crucial moments, whether it's a corner kick, go and get tight to your man. Whether it's organisation, whether your teammate maybe is out of position, you go and fill in, somebody talking.

21:14Whereas now, I think a lot of players look to the managers. If they've not told them before, if it's a corner kick or a free kick, oh, you didn't tell me to pick him up, they can then blame the manager. Sometimes players need to take responsibility themselves. Yeah, definitely. I think the best teams, that's where there is many players taking responsibility on the pitch. Of course, they follow the game plan, but I always like to say, when the game is on, something happens and changes on the pitch, so they need to take football decisions. So they need to take their own decision in there where they react to the action or the things that are happening on the pitch.

21:46I think that's very, very important. But I also agree that we lack leaders, not enough leaders, but that's also why I actually think England have a good chance to progress very far. and hopefully win it in the end. I think there's quite a few leaders in the team that can take decisions and drive the team on. All right, more to come from Thomas Frank after the break.

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23:21Five likes for... I'm Steve Bratnow. host of Games Gone the Steve Bratnell podcast what's my favourite World Cup moment as a fan I have to say Michael Owen skinning the hole of the Argentina defence and cracking it in top corner for a very short space of time I believe

23:43my favourite World Cup player in history it won't be popular but I'm going to say Diego Maradona alright he handballed it but the guy was a complete genius The People World Cup 2026. Listen on BBC Sounds. The Football Day at the People World Cup 2026. With Steve Crossman. Listen on BBC Sounds. Chris Boyd, Adam Crafton and Thomas Frank all with us. Thomas, this is the question I've been looking forward to asking you more than any other. Can't wait. I've been speaking over the last few days to lots of people who have worked with you about international management. Is it something that appeals to you?

24:25And if so, would it appeal for any nation or just one nation? I think it could be appealing to me, definitely one day. When, you know, you never know with timing and everything. I think my first priority will, you know, take a club again at one point. but I always loved the Euros and the World Cup and of course I'm from Denmark so that would probably be the top priority to be the head coach of Denmark if it should be international teams but I'll be open, I'm an open guy so let's see what will happen What appeals to you about it? What aspect of international management one day as you say do you feel you would enjoy the most?

25:20People always talk about your feelings on personal relationships whenever I ask people about you as a manager. Yeah of course I think if you're in a club it's easier to get that personal relationship because it's every day throughout a year intense in every aspect but on the flip side with the national team you most likely go out to club visits You will maybe go out for lunch with the player, you know, maybe, you know, go home to visit them in their house, you know. So in a way you will, in a way, maybe get even closer to them. And when you are together for four, five, six weeks, that's extremely intense because you live together for six weeks.

26:01And I tried a little bit years ago as an under-17 national team coach for Denmark. And we went actually to the World Cup in Mexico for four weeks. So I think a lot of that will interest me. And then, of course, if you qualify, you need to qualify for Euros and for the World Cup. That's what you want. And when you see the teams now and the goals and the fans, what it means to every country, that's unique. I don't think you can describe that feeling of how proud the nation is when you represent the nation in a tournament. Thomas, what do you think has changed for managers? because it used to be, if you looked at international managers, they were maybe coming towards the end of their career and they thought, right, I'm going to go and manage the country, whereas now there does seem to be a lot of younger managers who have done really well at club level are now stepping into international jobs as well.

26:52It's a very good question. I don't know exactly. I think it may be a combination of some of the very good young managers. Maybe they... The contract. Say again? The contract. How much the contract is. Maybe. Maybe that. But I think it's sometimes depending if a club job is so demanding and so intense. The national team is different. It's everything when you're together. And it's even more, and you can see in England how much pressure and focus there is on England. And it's the same in Denmark, and I think it's the same in Sweden, I think it's the same in Croatia. So in those 10 days they're together, those six weeks, it's very, very intense.

27:32But then there's more, I can say, downtime and more flexible time where you, of course, need to see games and all that. So I think it's a combination. I think it's I think what you say about contracts is probably true in the sense that, you know, the U.S. hired Pochettino. They kind of got together a bunch of billionaires to contribute to the salary as well. They kind of had to raise money that way. Not that he's being paid billions, but but they did have to sort of get people together to donate towards that. and then I think it's also interesting kind of depending on the stage of a coach's career because someone like Graham Potter maybe had difficult experiences last couple of jobs but going into Sweden it's a very different environment a different opportunity he's obviously got a good relationship with Sweden going back to club football as well then someone like Ancelotti right at the other end of his career I think Brazil were looking for that kind of a bit like England that sprinkle of maybe star quality who is very used to dealing with some of these club level superstars to get over the line and it gives you know someone like Ancelotti, Tuchel, Pochettino just a slightly different pace of life but then the most intense I mean the pressure of this five or six weeks it is unparalleled really even to the the highest levels of club football.