World Cup: What's Next For England?

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1:21We are in Buddy's Bar in Jersey City. and the weather today has been an absolute disgrace. Since I last saw you, what have you done? Well, when did I last see you? After the podcast yesterday. Yeah, I basically went to Eminem World with Paul Robinson. Pretty good. Yeah, what did you do? I went to the cinema with Guillain-Balague. Fantastic. What a life we lead. I was there watching Paul Robinson trying to put his face on some Eminems. Get frustrated at the screen and then walk out. And did it work? No, not at all. Is it like a normal size M &M or a big M &M? Like a head size M &M? Normal size M &M.

2:00Oh, and then you get your faces. Yeah, he loves M &Ms. Quite fun. Yeah. I've known Paul for a long time. Never seen him do that before. I've never seen him do that before. Didn't even realise he was into M &Ms until we were walking through Times Square and he was like, well, obviously. M &M World. I was like, that is a man from Yorkshire. Yeah, also, just go to Leicester Square. There's one in Leicester Square. But I do love Paul. So we spent a nice little day together with his family. and what did you go and watch at the cinema with Guillaume? The Odyssey. Oh, I don't know what that is. And it was, well, basically, because I've got to stay up very late to do breakfast, so I needed to stay up late to get my body on.

2:33Oh, body clocking. Body clocking. So we went to the late showing of The Odyssey, three-hour film, started at 11 p.m. You did the math. No way. Yeah, so we walked out at 2 a.m. And it had, the dangerous thing was, the cinema had, like, full flatbed recliner. Every single seat was full flatbed recline. We hadn't paid extra. That was just every seat. And full, people were in there with blankets. We shared. I mean, it was so sweet. He bought me the tickets. I bought the snacks and the drinks. I love gear. And the film's fantastic. For a three-hour film, I didn't check my watch. I love films, but they're too long.

3:15And a three-hour film is too long. Yeah. And I was engrossed. completely had me for the whole thing. Is it a good film? It's a really good film. Did you cry like I did with Hamnet? No, I didn't. It's not that... I felt a little bit emotional because it is basically about a man desperately trying to get home to see his wife and child. So I felt a bit like, not for the first time, Odysseus. Not for the first time. You are so deluded. It's absolutely unbelievable. Yeah, and then today, I got up I interviewed Paul Robinson he didn't mention M &M World or you. He didn't mention me? No, no. Then John Murray didn't mention M &M World or you and then I went to go meet a load of Spanish fans, ate some Spanish food, tried to use some Spanish fans castanets but the man had left and then we went to Times Square and there was more Argentinians and I've been to Argentina there's more Argentinians than I've ever seen in my life so the Bandarazzo they're like pre sort of party rally starting at 5 we got there at about 3.30 and I looked and it was like well you can't how has this A.

4:32how has this not already started because it looks like it started how many people do you reckon there were I don't know I don't know how as many people as you could fit comfortably into uncomfortably into Times Square it was that many I mean thousands thousands and I'd gone to the Spanish thing and thought oh this is nice there's like hundreds of Spaniards here and then you look at the Argentinians and you go okay there's a lot of them have travelled I went and watched the England game with a friend of mine John and he he was like oh we'll meet in this bar like in central Manhattan the amount of Argentinians just everywhere like in shops decking themselves out with like various like outfits flags they've all got the flags on the back of their rocks and stuff like that so But what I will say is that this bar that we watched the England game in, absolutely full of England fans.

5:19It was brilliant. It was really, really nice. I had a lovely little time. That is nice for a game that is, of course, irrelevant. Do you want to guess what I did after the Times Square fan interactions? Got a pretzel from a little place in the corner. Not got a pretzel from a little place in the corner. Took a photo of the smoke coming out through the grills. No, you won't get it. I went to a little French brasserie and sat outside and interviewed, and this was just off Central Park, very different feel, and interviewed Gabby Logan whilst her husband Kenny sat next to us. Lovely. It was really nice.

5:56That's really nice. Yeah, and he's got a very firm handshake indeed. Very firm. Yeah, I mean like crushingly firm. So too has their son. I mean that guy Kenny's a big man the son is like immediately you think who's bigger is it him or Gary Barlow's son maybe we'll never know it's not that size but I was at Oasis and he was there came over Gary Barlow's son no obviously not Gabby and Kenny's son Ruben Ruben I think he is Ruben plays rugby professional rugby fantastic lovely lad big man hand was absolutely gone I know you said Casper Schmeichel had a firm handshake. I was like, how is a kid half my age?

6:38Just made me wince. But luckily I don't have to play him in rugby. Shall we introduce our guests? So we're joined by commentator Guy Mowbray and Adam Crafton from The Athletic. Hello, fellas. How are you? I'm very good. Thank you for having me. Very good. Very wet. So, yeah, I mean, we've come from L.A. and the weather in L.A. was fantastic. And here, I actually haven't seen rain like it. so we're in Jersey City and the rain this morning like people were sort of ankle deep in it so it was like waves in the water it made me quite grumpy I'll be honest it's really weird do you know when you think you're kind of seeing things and then you go oh is that Wayne Rooney in a life jacket but that actually turns out it actually was Wayne Rooney he was rowing he was rowing I saw Joe Hart coming back to the hotel barefoot with a white t-shirt on absolutely soaked through and a lovely body on the guy, by the way.

7:34And it was nuts. And possibly with Joe, quite deliberate. Yeah. By this point, there was no rain. No. Yeah, there was no rain. There was a game on this afternoon, which I have to say I didn't watch. England beat France 6-4 to finish third. It's England's best finish in the World Cup since 1966. It looked a bit like a soccer aid game to me. I could not I could not bring myself to care less about this game I didn't even like I sort of looked at my watch and was like oh England are playing and I didn't watch a single second of it can anyone make me I challenge any three of you to make me care about that game well look I'm not going to make you care you've made your own decision there Rick you know try and back yourself myself as a massive England fan was up at 5am getting ready for the game I said to a few friends I was like imagine if we we turn over the French like 5-0 it could be ridiculous and they put like quite a strong team out and I'd say we put like a relatively second-ish fiddle team out and we looked fantastic and it was really weird and I don't believe it was a soccer aid kind of like feel to it did you actually watch it?

8:50no ok yeah so I think you do need to watch it in order to be able to say that did he bring KSI on in the end or did he keep him on the bench? I'm just amazed that you know who KSI is. Thank you. I'm surprised that's got through. Don't ask me for anyone else who was or used to be in the side. I'm surprised that has got through to your BlackBerry. But yeah, look, it was a weird game. But ultimately, you know, England have had the best finish since 1960. The best on foreign soil, as I saw on their Instagram. And look, you know, the French wants it and Mbappe wants to be leading goal scorer. Which we may have allowed him.

9:24Which we may have allowed him. absolutely a game of two halves but look, it was fun to watch it was fun to watch but I think it did show glimpses of how we could actually play I think you have to view this completely detached as a one-off game I don't think we can say oh that shows we could have done this I just don't think you can it doesn't show anything does it? I was a bit ambivalent until it was 2-0 and then I thought oh hang on a minute this could get very interesting and then I really started to take notice of it and I'll tell you what it does do it shows you that football's a much better game when you take coaches out of the equation and just let them play.

10:00Enjoy yourselves, lads. All head coaches. Just go and play, lads. But that's what it did. It looked like they were just being able to play and the, I mean, the cliche, the shackles were off and there was no pressure, but they... And that's it. That's exactly what it was. It was, yeah. I mean, look, like it was great because we were scoring up. The defence was also, both sides, absolutely abysmal. Just people just running through. But it was nice to watch. And, you know, it's nice to say, oh, we beat France. Look, it doesn't matter. People saying it's a dead rubber. It is still a game in the World Cup.

10:27We have finished third. See, I think it does matter. I think it does. I completely does, yeah. Bakayo Saka thinks it matters. Yeah. He's just scored a hat-trick at a World Cup. Yeah, but whenever anyone ever says that, there's got to be such a big asterisk next to it. How can Bakayo Saka go from not being able to play a minute? That's the thing. I don't know. Hopefully somebody will have asked him by now. Different game, different circumstances, different everything. I think this game creates more questions. Because exactly that. Sorry, one second. You didn't put Saka on at all against Argentina.

11:01Yet he has a fantastic game. I honestly think you have to separate the lot. I do, honestly. You do, but I do think it poses a lot of questions. I did quite like the fact that he brought on... I think every outfield player has now played, apart from Kobi Maynou, who was injured. Trevor Chalibur came on for the final few minutes. And that's great, you know, to see him. I mean he didn't have a great few minutes but it was nice to see the whole squad be rotated I mean in that game you actually could probably have brought Jordan Henderson on I'm fine it doesn't matter he has been on the bench the last three games he's been named as a substitute for the last three games which is what makes it a little bit strange that Kobe Mainu wasn't listed on the bench presumably maybe you can play with a cast on your own I guess he can play with a cast on his hamstring I think that was the main reason he couldn't actually run Whereas Jordan maybe could have got up and down a bit, although the referee may have taken issue with the fact that he's got a cast up to his shoulder.

11:56Can we talk a bit about Thomas Tuchel's reaction to the exit against Argentina? So when he's sort of saying, well, it's never our plan to drop deeper and maybe it's not in our DNA to control the game and ball. I personally didn't love that. I'm not sure I want him saying what is and isn't in our DNA. I also don't really know what it means. If you want to read anything into this game, you see that other approaches are possible. I don't know if it's just sort of madly... I don't know. Maybe he does mean that stuff and he just wants to say what he thinks. It doesn't feel very well advised to me. Well, it makes you wonder what the point of a coach is.

12:39Because if you have the view that there is something... Innate. Innate, intrinsic to this group of players that you being played very, very handsomely as a coach cannot fix. It kind of renders you a bit obsolete in your purpose. So I found that, there was two moments I found unusually triggering this week. One was when the Argentines came on with their banner. I sort of discovered a patriotism that I didn't know existed. And then also when Tuchel started talking about that, I found this kind of patriotism inside me. I was like, no, my DNA, my DNA, I can't keep the ball. after all I can keep the ball can you play next week I was like we can keep we see these players pass the ball to each other every week in the Premier League so I did find it very strange as a reason just because it makes you wonder what the point of a coach is it feels like we're iterating towards no coaches is what we want to see a World Cup with no coaches if we do no coaches and no pressure we could be really good I think we could be lethal I also think that's what we saw today The DNA Sean was checked out.

13:47He's like, it's my last game. Thomas Tuchel's like, just do whatever you want, lads. And they did it. It was great. I don't quite get it. It's in the DNA. But you had six defenders. You gave the ingredients there. Oh, we've got six defenders here. So how are you going to work with that? Well, he's saying, isn't he, that he was reacting to what the players were doing. And you can, when you look back at the pictures, you can see him and the coaches urging the players up the pitch and that isn't working but he seems to have just accepted oh okay, they're never going to do it so I might as well just whack a load more defenders on I think we're going too deep into it I think you used a very glib phrase, the DNA it's become a sort of thing, isn't it?

14:28talking about people's DNA and no regrets as well I don't think anybody's DNA has anything about controlling a football no it doesn't it's sort of quite a glib phrase I think it's the pressure of after the game and saying things when the dust settles later on I'm sure he'll have a different view on it. Do you think he'll say he had some regrets later on? I think he probably will I think he probably will and we've got so close and never quite done it and I think he probably was trying to fudge around the this is England, this is what they always do I kind of get it he made mistakes, yes, absolutely but it's so raw it's still quite raw now even after today's game I don't get how he can say it's in our DNA to basically not take control and go when he had six defenders on the pitch.

15:11Like, if you'd have put three or four attackers on there, then it's different. It's like, this is a weird analogy that I've just come up with. Oh, God. Imagine going on to Ready, Steady, Cook. Just cut this out. And giving Ainsley Harriot six eggs and some ham. We've just lost a very young audience. We never had them, so we're okay. We're honestly struggling to imagine. If you'd have read some of the faxes we've got, you know it's not a young audience. Giving him six eggs and some ham and going, why have you not made steak tart tart? you've given us an omelette there. And you go, well, you've had six defenders on the pitch.

15:41Ready, steady, Kobe Maynard. Thank you. There we go. There we go. That'll be the headline. Keeping it, actually. Keeping it. Going back to the coaches thing, do you remember Alex Ferguson's last game at Man United? 5-5 against West Brom. Yeah. Deschamps today. There's something in it. I'm checking out. Yeah. Do what you want, lads. Go on. Enjoy yourselves. I sort of quite enjoyed Donald Trump's mad intervention. sort of thing I got patriotic at that Adam that was the moment I went you believed America was great again we were about to ask him to take the hat off actually but in what world does I mean it's actually it's a mugs game trying to work out in what world but he was he was right there was kind of two moments with this I watched the game with my American partner who does not watch very much soccer at all and we were about what 68 minutes into the game where he started saying to me why are they retreating retreating's a bit strong yeah yeah yeah he doesn't watch football but he has a lot of risk yes but by but by the next day everyone was talking about the retreat this retreat so he was very much ahead of the game and then when you see Trump diagnose it as well it made me think this couldn't have been that complicated to be honest it was very clear look let's be honest Trump has been briefed by someone who knows a little bit about football slash soccer and going hey how about you say this you've played you've played golf with him say this and it's just a distraction so we're not talking about the things that actually matter when it comes to Dodger I don't know how much Trump takes briefing The last person that says something in here, he'll go out and say it.

17:31So there's clearly a soccer fan in the White House gone, Hey, quickly say this about Harry Kane. Harry played really deep. It's like, okay. And he's just gone and done it. And everyone's like, God, I agree with Donald Trump. What's going on? Retreat. He delivered it very well though in the set. It was like, you've been here too long. Oh, no, believe me. Look, you cannot. Here we go. You cannot. You can fault many things about the man. You can't fault his delivery. You can't fault. The guy's box office. You really can. You can't fault the comic timing. He was saying that Harry Kane is a great attacker.

18:00And he then sort of delivered it. But he turned him into defence, right? And that was his diagnosis. He was like, I'm not sure that was a good idea. What do I know? Are we actually talking about this? Yeah. I'm so mad at that. But this is the thing. We could go on. This is the thing. It kind of makes you talk about it. Do you think Thomas Tuchel will be in charge of England at the Euros in 2028? Yeah, I do. I must say I saw some of the reaction today when his face was on the screen and he was booed, which I presume was England fans at the game. I think that's meaningful. Equally, I think the FA will be hoping the dust settles, that there is some recognition over time of some of maybe the errors that were made on the night.

18:45But as we said, it's still a pretty good finish for the tournament. I think it is just this feeling of, you know, what could have been. And that will stay. I think one of the challenges he's going to have is perhaps actually the credibility with the players and how the players felt about that night and what the decisions that were made. That's the thing that worries me more is that, so Sammy Mockbell at the BBC has spoken to a number of senior players who were effectively briefing that they didn't like the tactics. they didn't understand why they were being asked to do it and then Tuchel was sort of not directly hit back but was basically saying well the players weren't doing what I wanted them to do and I think when you get that kind of situation a slightly fractured relationship I don't know how we not that I'm saying it's impossible to repair that but I don't think it's easy to repair He has had this before at his clubs he's been quite abrasive and he has had this but then I look back at just a few days before everybody when that clip of John Stones giving his shoulder pump in the dressing room and the universal thing was what a great, look at this, the managers they all love him and all this and I know it can turn very quickly but I don't think you lose that on one game, I don't think you do.

19:58And what I would add to that is if you think that's the Croatia game, I think he took Rice off, he took baby Bellingham off. Substitutions were bang on. Substitutions were bang on but also he was taking off big players at big moments of games and we were all there saying we love that he's prepared to take the big decisions, that he's got this iron will. I think every game until the semi-final he got all the subs and calls right pretty much every one. But would you say that a lot that he hired for? Yeah, yeah, exactly. For these moments. I've got a multi-stage approach to the Tuchel thing. I didn't want him appointed in the first place.

20:29I'm very, very old school. International football, I think, should be like players. I think you should qualify unless you're an emerging nation and you need somebody coming in. But that's gone. That's not happening. So what, our best be your best? Yeah, kind of. There's maybe no coincidence that every single World Cup has been won by a natural coach. And also, if you look at the two finalists, they're not club coaches tomorrow there. Different sort of technique, different techniques required. Yeah. You've also got then, okay got it and he was brought on to do the next step that Gareth Southgate didn't quite do.

20:58Okay he hasn't done that. I don't understand why they gave him the contract for the Euros as well beforehand but they have. Okay so they have so they're stuck with it now. So I would say now right well you stick with it and you go with it because otherwise what's the point starting again with with somebody else and starting the whole process again. Stick with it unless and there's one big unless here and some England fans have put this to me over the last few days if pep guardiola was available you do it yeah i don't know if that's pie in the sky the conversation is that pep was seriously considering it in 20 years ago yeah two years ago and was kind of sitting on giving the fa a decision for like three weeks and must have been considered quite carefully and then decided against but does sort of give you hope that maybe that's a timing thing and he felt like he had a bit more to give to city The only thing I wonder coming out of this tournament, if you look at some of those big, big club coaches, you know, Ancelotti with Brazil, Tuchel with England, Pochettino, when it came to those real kind of clutch moments, they came up short in international football.

22:02I would love Frank Lampard one day. I really would. I've not met one top pro who doesn't look up to him still and thinks, my God, he's got it. And because he's gone through the set-up, he knows everything. and yeah Coventry fans now are going shut up I would say that I mean I think the point you make about kind of homegrown coaches is important because when you watch this Argentina team and I think the Spanish one there's two models right you either have the coach that comes through the federation with a style of play Lee Carsley yeah Lee Carsley quite right that's one model the other model is you develop this kind of band of brothers which is what Argentina have and this real feeling I mean you saw when they sung the national anthem I've never seen anything at all.

22:44There's another thing that goes against us. Ours is too short. Ours is too short. So good before it's finished and then the other one goes on for five minutes and they're all pumped up. That was the closest I've ever seen in football to the hacker in terms of how intimidating it was. I was watching on TV scared. Yeah, can I just on the national anthem and this is like a bit of a special subject of mine. It's a real divisive anthem the English national anthem because I think we've got one Muslim player that plays for England now. We've got a lot of lads that are religious but we've also got a lot of lads that aren't religious and also we've got a lot of people that don't necessarily believe in the monarchy.

23:16So our national anthem is very different to many other national anthems. So I actually think that we are at a disadvantage with our national anthem because it is quite divisive at the start. Is it time for you to write a new one? Rick, I can't show you my pitch docs that are in my Google Drive, but I've already been thinking of any other good life. Didn't Billy Conley once say there should be the theme tune from The Archers? I mean, it would be perfect. It would also be a lot of smiling. People would enjoy it. I do obviously lost the younger audience for a different day but I do think we need to change our national anthem at one point and I think that Prince William is the person to do that but just going back Chumba Wamba what do you call me?

23:56I going back to England manager I still do hope it is Thomas Tuchel because I think as you say Guy I don't think we should chop and change we saw the fans today booing Tuchel which obviously is not ideal I hope that the FA do stick with him so that we can then carry on going on because basically it's very much like politics I mean people want fast news they want a turnover journalists no offense want things to write about podcasters need revenue so they'll just kind of push and push and push the envelope and we'll react to fans booing so no but it's not like politics because I don't want results every every day everywhere I want results every two years no absolutely but it is like there's quite a lot of time to build up to it.

24:43I don't care what you look like in the build up. I don't care if you lose in the Nations League. I don't care if you lose friendlies. If you go and then win in a tournament, I'm absolutely delighted. But we're getting there. We're getting there. No, for sure. From 2018 onwards, semi-finals and finals, it's beyond my wildest dreams. I'm not saying we've been spoiled, but look. And only one team can ever win. Yeah. We've come third in the World Cup, which is obviously... Second in the Euros. Yeah, second in the... Twice. It's not bad, but I hope that they do. I think, and again, there needs to be a post more to him as you say when the dust settled the Arsenal approach second, second, second bingo but you know right why did this happen and you know what happened here and there but I still hope that they stick with him and they don't react to fan pressure and media pressure I'm with you Lloyd I'm with you Lloyd what worries me a little bit particularly for the next World Cup not to look too far is I'm not sure in key positions we actually have the quality of player that will be being replaced one in particular one in particular but I also think John Stones stepping out John Stone stepping out centre defence and I think we may have a goalkeeper problem as well in four years time so they are three pretty key positions that I don't think you can win a World Cup without so we need players to emerge I think centre forward only I honestly think that's the position and I think there are ways around that in systems or whatever we're one of the few nations play with an out and out centre forward who's a goalkeeper in four years I think Dean Henderson will still be absolutely he's only going to be 35 35 is nothing for a keeper.

26:11Nothing. Trafford, if he keeps progressing, absolutely. As long as he does keep progressing, he's a bit hamstring at the moment. Also, if you imagine a Pep-type coach, you can certainly see him not being fussed about having a straight and out number nine and almost saying to Bellingham, play as a false knight. You sort of see that working, potentially. It's centre-forward. We haven't got many good strikers. Goalkeepers are some other little area of expertise. I do think that Trafford will be good in four and maybe eight years Tommy Sefton at Arsenal I think who's coming through I think there's a few and centre-backs we always fight centre-backs don't worry about that it's in our DNA Pep who we've anointed as our next coach did of course sign James Trafford and then sign someone else yeah yeah that was circumstance he just happened to be there yeah The Football Daily Podcast at the People World Cup 2026 with Rick Edwards and Lloyd Griffith.

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28:55So we've got Spain, Argentina later today. First time the European champions have faced the Copa America holders in a World Cup final. I do think it's a fascinating game. And once you kind of strip away the disappointment, I am really looking forward to it. Guy, you've done a bunch of World Cup finals now. Do you still get a bit of a tingle, though? Oh, God. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's the biggest game every four years, anywhere. and yeah it started weeks ago actually and no matter who would be in the final there's so many reasons to be looking forward to this one so many um the clash of styles even though both technically latin countries totally different totally different approaches um i think it'll have aggro which i always enjoy a bit of yes um it's gonna have phenomenal footballers and we've got messy chasing all kinds of records yeah i can't it's got a bit of everything is this yeah really looking I think what I love about it is you have these two entirely contrasting teams so you've got this Spanish team that is rational surgical that has this clear defined plan and then you have on the other end of the spectrum this chaos this quite emotional chaos and lack of control really within games and then that one player who can just destroy any plan yeah and that just makes it completely compelling and also I think the fans are going to be another dimension to this because Spain don't really travel they don't travel to their own away games no club sides don't generally really no so this will be like an Argentina home game again I suspect well I went and spent some time with Spanish fans who were in a little sort of indoor market yeah and it was nice and then I went to Times Square and saw the Argentinians and was like good god like it is it's crazy it is great for all the disappointment of the other day every Argentinian game I've covered at various World Cups have just been the greatest occasions the tears start three hours before kick off they've absolutely burst into floods of tears just arriving at the stadium they're away, they're off it's unbelievable it'll be amazing to see if they can drag the Spanish into their game as well they sort of have to don't they I think they do somebody will be winding Rodri up from the start take the motor out see what happens do you think he's wind up a ball oh he can be he can be yeah he can be a little bit I remember City against Forest three years ago when somebody got stuck into him and that was it he lashed out not often but he can be he can be done but they can give it back a bit as well oh yeah yes I keep talking about Kukurea on that left hand side well there you go there's one I keep talking about it every podcast it's a bit boring now but I just cannot say how he's not going to get a card or potentially get sent off I think it's going to be a great game.

31:51But he's also been one of the standout fullbacks of a tournament. Yeah. If anyone can sort of do a job. He could go three years in a row. Euros, Club World Cup, World Cup. Mark Lucreia. Yeah. Which is... Big trophy. Yeah. Big trophy. And it's all down to his wife's pyjamas. Excuse me? Well, he brought them with him. Because apparently in Germany, the Euros two years ago, she stayed with him. during the tournament. And so he wanted something of her with him at this tournament, so he brought his wife's pyjamas in. I don't know if he's sleeping in them. He must be. You've got them with you, but it's working.