World Cup: Who Stops Messi?

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1:16Chris Sutton:Hello and welcome to the Football Daily with Rick and Lloyd. We are in New York. Well, we're not in New York. We're in Jersey. We're in Jersey. Is it New Jersey? I think we're in Jersey City. I think is the bit we're in. We're in jerk. So right on the... Getting a nod too. Yeah, getting a nod. An approving nod. So we're right sort of staying on the water overlooking Manhattan, but not from the way that you normally do it. Yeah. So if I was to show you a photo, you'd be like, is that Manhattan? And you'd go, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just that everyone takes photos from the other side. Yeah. Should we say the cheaper side?

1:48Chris Sutton:Yeah, I mean, it is definitely the cheaper side. We're in the cheaper. That's also getting a nod to approval as well. But it's still very nice. and when we landed yesterday, we had been told about the air quality and we got various warnings on our phones, I don't know if you saw that. But when we got off, I was genuinely surprised at how A, hot it was at sort of 8.30 at night and B, the smog, the sort of haze was like Blade Runner. Well, usually when you get to New York, you can see Manhattan, you can see that beautiful skyline. See some stuff. probably millions of lights, I'd say. Hundreds of thousands.

2:29No, I think millions is probably right. And you couldn't see anything? No. You could not see anything because the smog slash smoke from Canada was just covering everything. But woke up this morning. It's cleared. Clear as a daisy.

2:41Chris Sutton:Yeah. Is that the phrase? Clear as a daisy? Yeah, it should be. My friend texted me and said, oh, now the smog's cleared. Do you want to go for a run in Central Park? And I was like, of course not. Of course not. Did you not? No. I don't want to go for a run anywhere. Yeah. I had a bit of a howler on the plane coming over from LA to New York. I watched the film Hamnet on the plane. Yeah. So I haven't seen it. And the reason I haven't seen it is because I have been told that it's so incredibly upsetting. Yeah. Yeah. I cried inconsolably in between two men I'd never met before. Yeah. Four, four and a half hours.

3:19Chris Sutton:And I saw you sort of towards the end of the flight when you walked past me. and your little eyes were all red and puffy. Well, can I say, so there was a moment where I was watching it and it's an unbelievable film, okay, but not a film you should watch when England have been knocked out of the World Cup. You haven't really seen your family for, well, really, about four months. And you're 30 ,000 feet in the air where your senses are heightened. So there's a moment where it was just so sad and I couldn't watch the screen. I was blubbing inconsolably. Luckily, the bloke on my right had had some sort of gummies that he was dead to the world.

3:54The guy to my left, I think, was quite liberal. So it was like, oh, this man's in touch with us, you know, his emotional side. Yeah. And I was just staring at the toilet sign because I couldn't look at the screen because it was so sad. And then I just saw you get up to go to the toilet. I was like, oh, no. So I just started scratching my face so that you didn't see me crying uncontrollably. Come on. I know, I know. We're close enough that you can cry in front of me. But honestly, it was unbelievable. You've cried off the table tennis. I didn't cry. I had hay fever. I had hay fever. The pollen was really bad in wherever you were.

4:26But yeah, so just a little word of warning. I kind of, I say, just trying to help the viewers here, never watch Hamnet in a plane because you'll just cry your eyes out next to a guy called Raymond.

4:37Chris Sutton:Did you and Raymond speak afterwards? Nope, not at all. Not at all. Not at all. He was like, should you never speak of this again? Yeah, thank you. At one point, I had my eye mask on. I put my eye mask over my eyes. The tears were still leaking through. Just to dab the tears. Why not? But yeah, fantastic film. Not really one for a World Cup. Well, we're joined now by football correspondent John Murray and ex-Lincoln City manager Chris Sutton. How are you both? Well, this is quite something, isn't it? Face to face. Looking directly into your eyes. I know. For the first time at this World Cup. Looking directly into Chris's eyes.

5:15Chris Sutton:And they tell a story, mate. You do not look very healthy. Well, it's been a... Thank you. What a lovely introduction. Nobody doesn't. It's been a long trip. I've done a lot of travelling. And today I'm a little bit jaded. You don't have to stand up for yourself. This man. This man. Look at those eyes and tell me he doesn't have to stand up for himself. He's been travelling around the country, reporting on these games. You've been at NLA trying to launch a Hollywood career. With some success. That's what jet lag does. Exactly. Takes his toll. Also, just ignore him. Just ignore him. He doesn't want to.

5:48Chris Sutton:He likes me. I've had this for the whole month by the way yes and you also like me it's important to remember that how's the table tennis gone? right who's side you on now? no it's just a question it's just a question the table tennis has been a roller coaster shall we say not from my point of view it's a bit exclusively up so we thought we'd try something slightly different for this podcast so I've asked each of us to bring something to the table for us to debate something significant everyone's been talking about at the World Cup well I'll start, get the ball rolling and I want to talk about Lionel Messi and the inability of teams to shut him out and every team has tried it and even when it looks like they've managed it then he just takes hold of the game and kind of does what he wants and I want to know if that is the fault of the teams or if you just have to accept that Messi is too good Chris you're kind of, I mean I can't say of you grimacing over what I'm saying or just generally how you're feeling.

6:50Chris Sutton:No, that's you. I'm just looking at you. Yeah, it's a good question. And what were the stats about Messi? Messi, how much running he's done or how much running he's done? Look at this, by the way. Can I say? I mean, and you've got a notebook and then you with your little phone, you haven't even looked at it. You've got the same phone, Rick. But it is quite incredible. It's the walking. Yeah. He's walked more than anyone else during the matches. He's covered sort of five kilometres in the last couple of games. It's like half of what an average player would cover. Yeah, but it's just the moments, isn't it?

7:23Chris Sutton:And he's, I mean, I think it's his most successful World Cup in terms of goals. Yeah, eight goals, four assists. Four assists. And yeah, just, I mean, just his influence. And I mean, the final's really interesting because I think we all think that Spain will control the game. But the way that Argentina have played, they have played for moments and he's been the biggest part of that. And, you know, we had the Ronaldo-Messi debate earlier on in the tournament. Ronaldo wasn't contributing, and Messi certainly was, and at the heart of everything sort of good about Argentina. Yeah, can Spain do it, John?

7:56Chris Sutton:It must be possible. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely it is. As we were discussing last night during the more sensible moment, this is a one-off match. This is a one-off cup match. So anything is possible within the course of that 90 minutes. But I would say on Messi, because we've commentated on him a lot over the years, haven't we? We've been fortunate. We've seen him a lot in club football. I've commentated on him at every World Cup. And he, to me, has got the edge over Ronaldo. And I think part of the reason for me is that I've commentated more on Ronaldo, because, of course, he had that spell playing in the UK.

8:33But it's always felt like whenever I've commentated on Messi, almost every time, that he's really stepped up. And it feels like he scores every time I watch him. and some of the stuff, the way that he bounces off people, you know, for the size that he is, how robust he is and how rarely he's been injured is remarkable.

8:51Chris Sutton:He's got a bottom as good as John McGinn. What does that mean? You know John McGinn uses his bottom. It's not quite as big. No, no, no, but he also uses his bottom in order to get the bounce. Yeah. That's not something that gets discussed much. That's true. I just think he's the perfect size just to get around people, like he's pirouetting around people And obviously, when he was first spotted, when he was however many years old, he was given growth steroids in his legs to try and boost himself. And everyone thought he'd grow a bit bigger, but he just stayed the same kind of height. And I just think that's a nuisance, isn't it?

9:24Like, he's not at the right level where you can put your arm around his neck and grapple him. You're not allowed to do that anyway. Unless you're Argentina. This has underlined his status. This has edged him ahead of Ronaldo, I think.

9:38Chris Sutton:I watched the assist for what was the winning goal against England. And you look at the two England defenders who are on him, and they're basically half his age. And to be fair to them, they have shepherded him onto his weak foot. And then he's just produced that cross. And you kind of think, well, I don't know what, I guess maybe they should have got a bit tighter, or it's just emphasised to me, in certain situations, I don't know what you're supposed to do. You know, you need more than one man out against him, really. but then you leave spaces in other areas. But no, he's a left footer, he's nimble, he's sensational.

10:16Chris Sutton:No, it was a brilliant, brilliant piece of magic from him once again. He's been the difference for Argentina. Out of possession, he doesn't work at all. That's where I think Argentina may come a cropper against Spain because I think Spain will control the game. They'll dominate. I covered the Swiss game. I was supposed to come on with you after, wasn't I? and the Swiss were better than Argentina. They really, really were. I mean, they were in the ascendancy, like right on top when they got their equaliser and it felt like they were going to go on and win that game. We covered the Egypt match and I'm saying, 10 minutes to go, I'm saying this is the end of the road.

10:55This is the end of the road for Argentina. Messi had had the penalty saved. He'd had quite a quiet match. 79th minute it was, wasn't it? They were 2-0 down. and then before you know it, he's absolutely come to life and really is the major force in them winning that match over the course of the remaining minutes.

11:15Chris Sutton:And the longer the games have gone on and gone into extra time, he's started to drift out to that right-hand side and in those 1v1s, he's unstoppable. You actually can't do anything against him 1v1, which is why, as you say, you need two on him and then the spaces emerge. But it does occur to me that effectively, out of possession, Argentina are playing with 10 and a half men? He's not doing any defensive way, he doesn't track back But that's the way they've played all tournament No of course, but you'd think that a team would be able to exploit that and maybe that team is Spain. I think so I actually thought, I'm not just saying, I thought the winner would come out of the Spain-France semi-final I think, I can't remember it might have been Julian Lerone who phrased it, the final before the final, I think he was absolutely bang on with that assessment and And yeah, without the ball, he just stands.

12:03Chris Sutton:He literally stands. His other teammates have to work exceptionally hard. They'll sit deep. It'll be a very similar game to the game against England in terms of the way that Argentina set up. I'm sure about that. They'll defend the box early on, defend strongly, try and hang on in the game and just look for a moment. And Alvarez, who likes to come to the ball, he's been the one who's actually had to have a bit of variation with this play and sort of stretching and running in behind because they don't really do that Argentina. But surely for this one, they'll have Paredes in there with McAllister and DePaul.

12:39And obviously Enzo Fernandes as well, who works incredibly hard. So you've got four really hard workers there.

12:47Chris Sutton:It's a hard midfield to like. I've got to say, it's a hard midfield to like. I've got to say, I love watching Argentina. Because, I mean, the way they defended them, when they got in front against England, and they don't have a great deal of size. And we put Dan Byrne up top, Ivan Tonio come on, and then we were going direct, Thomas Tuchel ball direct late on. But the way they defended the box and how ferocious they were. And I've got to say that it's hard to measure this, but they look like a team and a nation where it means more to Argentina than virtually. How do you measure that? But it does seem to mean more to them than anybody else.

13:30Chris Sutton:Yeah, it does seem that. I was on the plane here with Emma Hayes and she said exactly that. She said that's what England need. England don't have that. They'd probably say, yes, we do. I mean, they're horrible. The way the game started, I thought the referee should have dished out a few yellow cards. Ideally, you shouldn't be allowed to get away without going something in the back of the head. No, you shouldn't have. Exactly. But then they're in and around the referee when things go against them. I didn't think, we disagreed on that. Elliot Anderson, I didn't think that was a booking, actually.

13:58Chris Sutton:I thought it was messy. I thought Messi more ran into him than the other way round. But they're surrounding the ref getting him booked. I was amazed it was a booking given everything that had gone before that. Exactly that. I think in a normal game, I'd say it's a booking. In that game, definitely not. No, exactly. But they're so streetwise and smart. And that's why I thought they had no chance of winning at watching them. I thought England would beat them. And, you know, I still think Spain will have the edge. But there's something inside. You just think, will they find a way once again? If Messi goes onto that right-hand side like he did, and like he has been in the last few games, what does Cucuré have to do?

14:31I'll tackle him. Okay, that'll do. He's a hothead though, isn't he? He's a loose cannon. He's always in the ref's face. He's going to be as Argentinian as the Argentinians. Do you think he'll do a job? I don't think anybody can do a job with him 1v1.

14:46Chris Sutton:I just think it'll be emphasised more with the way that Spain play. I think they've been the best team with the ball, the best team without the ball. They're the only team who really hunt when they lose the ball and press high. I mean, I actually don't know how many games they've played inside, how many games they've played outside. Am I right in saying this is only the second one they'll be playing outside? Right. All right, shall we move on to our next talking point? Lloyd, you've got something you'd like to discuss. Yeah, well, one of the biggest talking points throughout this World Cup, it's the refereeing and the VR decisions, the VR decisions that haven't gone to the screen, the red cars, the penalties, and basically the debate over consistency.

15:27How much confidence do you have that the officials in this final won't become the actual story? I quite like the way the referees have let things go

15:38Chris Sutton:in the sort of physical tackling sense. There have been the odd errors. I think simulation... Hang on, that's what we were saying at the start of the tournament and then I think that sort of dissipated. That's fair. But I certainly thought with the group stage games, I thought I would love games to be referee in the Premier League like I saw in the group stage. There were some strong challenges and the referee... There was a lot of get up. Simulation's been worse than ever in this tournament. I think that the referee should have been more robust in terms of yellow cards. And that was another one Argentina somehow got away with, wasn't it, the Mbola where they turned it down.

16:19Chris Sutton:I'm not so sure they were allowed to do that. But anyway, they found a way of getting Mbolo sent off, who was stupid anyway. But yeah, I quite like the way the game has been refereed. And of course, there's been the odd moment, the odd incident, which, you know, been high profile, which everybody was always going to get stuck into. Could have gone either way, which we're going to talk about the Argentina-Egypt. That's the one that really gets to the nub of a couple of issues, isn't it? Because you've got usage of VAR, how far it goes back, and then consistency. because Egypt's, what would have been their second goal that got chalked off, obviously a wonderful goal, which is sort of part of the story in a way, isn't it?

16:59Chris Sutton:Because you wish it had stood. And I know that can't really come into thinking, but it does. Gets chalked off because 17 seconds before when they win possession, there is a foul. And I don't think there's much argument that it's a foul. It's just how far you think VAR should be going back, looking for things and re-refereeing the game. That's the thing. and if you accept that then why doesn't the same thing happen for Argentina's which goal was it? The winner when Salah is appealing for a penalty immediately before they go up the other end and score it now in fairness I don't think it's a penalty it would have been very soft but I can't understand why VAR hasn't got the referee to have a look at it because it seems like such a comparable situation so yeah I just it didn't it didn't sit quite right with me it certainly didn't sit right with the Egyptians it certainly did not I mean that's why they were like they were yeah it feels to me like we don't really know who's in control like we don't really know who's in control because there are some decisions where they won't even look at a review and so you kind of go well I know that the referee is supposed to be in control and then someone's on his ear and goes actually I think you should have a look at that but I just I don't actually think that anyone is in control they will the game.

18:13They will look. They will be looking all of the time. You think they've not looked at that, but they will be looking.

18:19Chris Sutton:With a situation like that, do you think that it would have been worth the referee going and having a look? I just think that, and we do get this from Howard Webb, don't we, in the Premier League this last season, about this high bar and low intervention. I think it's my feeling. That's what people want. They want intervention when you absolutely have to do that. Is it? And I know that it sort of shouldn't be, but Is it that it's a higher bar for an instant in the penalty box than it is outside? Because I feel like there's been a few decisions where... We don't know. I think it's so hard to measure.

18:54Chris Sutton:I do think that there's an element, because those two decisions we're talking about were for Argentina, that us English are enraged by that. I do think that there is an element of that. Had it been England, Egypt, and things gone for England, I thought, or gone the way that they did for... So, you know, win would have been... And Rick's right as well. It was because it was such a good goal. But that doesn't... No, no, no. Emotionally, it does make a difference, doesn't it? But also, there's been plenty of absolutely absurd decisions that have gone in... Well, not plenty. A couple of decisions that have very much gone in England's favour, I don't think.

19:32Chris Sutton:So the penalty for... The Croatia one? No, no, no. The one that Konza clearing out... Yes, that's right. seems like a long time ago that is a stone wall penalty as you said VAR have looked at it and the referee hasn't gone to the screen just that inexplicable terrible terrible decision and then actually the Modric penalty in the first game pretty soft but it probably was I look at the Salah one and go that would be soft but then they set the bar there so when the Mexico won you go well actually they gave that against us so therefore we're going to have to give that I just think that there's been consistency in some things but not in a lot of others.

20:19That's all opinion isn't it it's the soft bar isn't it where is the soft bar great question.

20:25Chris Sutton:It's a fantastic power in that get it on a t-shirt. Is that the soft bar I think Chris well knows that's the hard bar what I will say is I quite enjoyed Refcam this tournament. Yeah Refcam I'm a big fan yes I am Really? Yeah. When it was announced that we were going to have RefCam, I thought, oh, no. That would be terrible. I think we all did. As soon as I saw it, I thought, actually, I can't hide this. I know you'll be surprised that that's my view. I'm very surprised. I knew you would. I'm not that excited about it. What excites you? It's a completely different angle. It's a nice view. It's a completely different angle.

20:59Chris Sutton:Because you've played a reasonably high level, Chris. A very high level. You've seen some of these. Yeah, right. You've seen some of these angles. We haven't seen these angles. It's exciting to us. That's mere mortals. I'll tell you what's an interesting aspect of RefCam that I think you could use even more is you do actually see what the referee has seen. So if there's a contentious incident or not seen or not seen. And that could actually help the referees because it shows that they can't see. I'd quite like to watch a game purely on RefCam just to see what they have to go through the whole entire time.