Arsenal ensure north London is red after Forest fell Liverpool – Football Weekly

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30was, is enormous. It took a lovely pass to get it going, but after that, it really looked like a Premier League team swatting aside League One opposition in the Carabao Cup. And while the Liverpool crisis continues and Pep yells at a camera operator, Chelsea move up to second. Are they our best bet for title challengers? Morgan Rodgers scores two for Villa to move them into the top four. Crystal Palace spoiled Rob Edwards' first game in the Wolves' dugout. Does Barry know which West Ham goalkeeper played a blinder? And it's incredibly wet in Brighton where Igor Thiago misses a late penalty. We'll do a bit on Ian Wright's comments on Jude Bellingham.

1:00And on the World Cup draw, Ireland could play Denmark again. How exciting. All that plus your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly. On the panel today, Barry Glendening. Hello. Hi, Max. Welcome, Jordan Jarrett-Brien. Morning, mate. And from the Racing Post, Mark Langdon. Hello. Hi, Max. Let's start at the Emirates. We have Jordan, Arsenal, Mark, Tottenham, me, Tottenham, Barry, neutral. James says, was Eze's phone call to Arteta before signing for Spurs the greatest phone call ever made in history? Did he call him or did Arteta call Eze? Either way, it was, Jordan, kind of inevitable.

1:35I mean, maybe he was never that close to signing for Spurs. He was always going to go to Arsenal. But the first hat-trick in a North London derby since Alan Sunderland in 1978, there'd only been four. And this was probably his first real star performance for them. Well, it makes us Arsenal fans feel a lot better if we tell ourselves that he did have Tottenham on one line and Arsenal on the other line literally turned down Tottenham at the same time as agreeing to join us. And the Eze song, which I'm sure Mark knows, about turning down Tottenham is a beautiful and apt song. It was inevitable. It did feel that way for sure.

2:09It's a brilliant hat-trick, first of all. And it felt like his coming out moment of like, I'm an Arsenal player, finally. It felt that Declan Rice got the winner against United a couple of years ago, late on. That felt like Declan Rice's, you're welcome to the club. And this definitely felt like Eberichi Eze's moment of like, yeah, I finally arrived. Three really, really good goals. I'll let Mark dissect how bad Spurs were in a second. But from a Arsenal perspective, it was beautiful. And for him to be, I don't really think actually played amazingly well. I think the three goals aside, I thought Eze was okay.

2:46I think he's played better in other games and not scored hat-tricks. But yeah, it was lovely that he got those goals. I think for Arsenal to capitalise on the fact that, our so-called rivals drop points the day before and then to smash your rivals in that way just made it a perfect weekend. And Barry, none of those goals are easy. He takes them, his movement, his balance to create the space is just so clever. Yes, not easy, but very easy. He's so graceful. He's so nimble. He's one of those footballers who looks like he's playing at a different speed to everyone else, as if things slow down for him while there's chaos around him.

3:28Now, I don't want to take anything away from his performance because it was superb and he probably should have scored more than three goals. Interestingly, you say that. I was surprised when I heard how few hat-tricks had been scored in the North London derby. And then I was thinking, surely Harry Kane must have scored one. Then I remembered who Harry Kane played for. But yeah, back to Eze. things seemed to slow down around him, but he was afforded so much space in that little area around the edge of the box, just inside, just outside the front of the penalty area. The charity of Rodrigo Bentoncur and Palina in, I don't know where they were.

4:12They just left this gaping hole for him to operate in. He didn't smash any of those shots home. They were nice, deft, precise touches. and a wonderful performance from him. Like you, I don't know how close he was to signing for Tottenham. I think they've more or less announced him, hadn't they, or they were about to. But Arsenal does look like where he belongs, although Christopalis fans may beg to differ. Yeah, I mean, it is worth saying, Mark, that, you know, had the situation been slightly different and he'd signed for Tottenham, I don't think that would have made the difference in that. he might have struggled with Vicario booting it sort of 20 metres above his head with every time he got the ball anyway I mean Arsenal in midfield just absolutely like dominated Tottenham they've spent very well in that area Zubimendi, Rice because Rice can do what Paulina can do in terms of winning the ball back but then has got so much more about his game Marino who started off as that emergency centre forward.

5:20I think he understands that role well now in terms of almost Havertz-esque really in the way that he can drop off and link play. The two wide players caused Tottenham a lot of problems. You expect that from Saka, maybe not so much. Trossard, I mean, if I would have said sort of start the season, like Trossard would not have been in my kind of best Arsenal XI by a long way. I think there were rumours that he could well have left the club in the summer, But his influence on the team in terms of scoring important goals and just being involved in big moments seems to be there. And yeah, I mean, we might get on to Tottenham later if we have to.

5:58But Arsenal dominated and were well worthy of the margin of victory. Just before we get on to Spurs, because I'm going to enjoy that bit as well. I think Mark's right to flag Trossard. He's a player that I actually wasn't too upset hearing that he may be leaving in the summer. I think he's a moments player. I think he's a brilliant squad player, but I had doubts about whether he could be Arsenal's starting left winger in a team winning the Premier League. And he shut me up. I think he's been brilliant this season. I think Timba, if Timba can add quality crosses to his game, I think he could be in that conversation as one of the best right backs in the world because defensively, you just can't beat him.

6:36He's so good. Mourinho was great as well. And Cappier came in. I don't think you even noticed him. So Gabriel wasn't missed in anywhere at all. and I think it's actually a reflection on the quality of the league if I'm to be honest because some people say when there are other clubs that emerge in the top part of the table that's a sign of a healthy league. I'm not so sure. I think the fact that Man City can't put a run together the champions are 11th if Spurs would have won yesterday I think they could have gone third or fourth. So Tottenham were absolutely awful yesterday but if they'd have won that game they could have still been pretty high in the table.

7:13I'm not so sure that's a good thing for the league in terms of its overall quality. Arsenal fans won't care. They won the game. They may win the league. But I think that there's something about the fact that there's so many teams at the top that aren't particularly good that says something about the quality overall of this Premier League. I mean, it's quite the if. If Tottenham won this game. It's a big if. It's a big if. You asked if Eze's phone call to Mikel Arteta was the most important ever made. And I've just been Googling. President Nixon's phone call from the Oval Office to Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong in 1969 is widely credited with being the most important, followed by Alexander Graham Bell's first ever phone call to his assistant, Mr.

7:58Watson, come here, I want to see you. So maybe it's top three. Interesting. Well, I mean, it could be, you know, Dave in Dagenham's call to talk sport, you know, the Tottenham season ticket. hold on Dagenham's the wrong choice isn't it Scott says as a Spurs fan I'm pleased to see we're finally taking some of that home form into away games it isn't just that they lost Mark and it isn't just that they lost heavily but honestly just and I understand you know Thomas Frank has looked at those squads and said we're not as good as them so we need to be tight and win second balls and set pieces and blah blah blah but just watching every time they get a free kick just Vicario ushering everyone forward and going I've seen Cambridge do this against Man United in the FA Cup.

8:41Like, that's sort of what I was watching. Yeah, I mean, just in terms of sort of spicy phone calls, the one my dad sort of gave to me at half-time was kind of up there. Yeah, I mean, it was a cowardly way to try to play football. You know, the players will have to take some flack, but I think it does rest at the shoulders of the manager. you can't charge Barcelona ticket prices and then serve up Brentford football he won't survive the season carrying on like that it is on him to try to get the team to play in a more progressive manner I mean against PSG right at the start of the season in the Super Cup they played the same formation, it was a back five Kudos played closer to Richarlison but there was intent when they actually got the ball to try to do something and that wasn't there in this match pick what seven defensive minded players you know you look at that back five and you think well if you're going to play with a wing back then Pedro Poro has to be one of those to try to sort of get the team up the pitch the quality he's got with his crosses and then you know Ben Sancor and Paulinha as a midfield two with five defenders I think is outrageous and It's no surprise that they can't progress the ball off the pitch when you're playing that defensively.

10:08If you look at the fourth goal, I think Jed Spence starts with a throw-in in a pretty progressive position, sort of halfway into the Arsenal half. It goes all the way back to Vicario, who does one of those silly little chips that he does with his left foot. Arsenal win the header, and then it's about four on two or something like that. If you've got Romero and Van der Ven at the back, I think you have to trust them to be good enough. I mean they are two very good defenders Romero must be one of the best ball playing centre-backs in the Premier League and to not try to use that like I said at the top there it's cowardly sort of way to play like Thomas Frank that performance at City was really exciting when they went there were aggressive played counter-attacking football it's got progressively worse and you know I would be less angry if I hadn't seen this sort of time and time again but I mean, they struggled like this against Wolves at home.

11:04And look how many points Wolves have got. So was it any surprise that Arsenal away was pretty much the same story? We have in the past, and I think with some justification, although Arsenal fans disagree or some do, that Mikel Arteta approaches games. He's too cautious, too cowardly. But I was shocked by this from Thomas Frank because he clearly set out to not lose. But even though the first 35 minutes were a bit of a non-event as a game, it never, ever looked like Spurs were not going to get beaten in this game. And, yeah, it was just spineless. Yeah, I was shocked by the negative approach from Spurs.

11:52Yeah, and we'd seen Sunderland take the game to Arsenal previously. I know, like, home and away is different. It was their lowest XG since records began. 0.06. I'm sure that it was their lowest last time against Chelsea. I'm really interested. I don't know what you think, Jordan, that Mark said, you know, he won't survive the season. Possibly. Because you sort of think there is part of me that is like, it's only 12 games. He needs time. He's a notoriously slow starter. But like we said in the preview pod, if he wins this game, that is so massive for him. Right. But losing this game in this manner, the pressure is so on.

12:25They've got PSG away next. looking forward to that one Max I bet like the question is how quick how bad can it get how quick because Tottenham surely can't replace I'm sort of surprised we're even having that conversation me too but I'm hearing from some of my Spurs fans that they're not you know Frank out but the conversation around as Marcus said how long he's got or how long he's got to turn this around is a conversation which is surprising to me in our Guardian season preview I had Spurs finishing third, not because I rate Spurs, but because I rate him really highly. And I thought that the force of Frank will outpower the Spursiness of Spurs.

13:07But he's struggling. He's struggling. And I would be stunned if he didn't get the season. I think if he can get some players back and he can implement his way, it might be a slow burn. It might get worse before it gets better. I would stick with him. I think he's a brilliant manager. Given time and the right resources, I think he can do a good job. but there is a conversation around whether that leap from your Brentfords, your Bournemouths, your Brightons to a top club is that leap for most managers just to leap too far. I still have faith that he will turn it around, but it's not looking good.

13:39The underlying data, which Frank will be fully aware of given that he was at Brentford and he's referenced XG previously, on expected goal difference, Tottenham are bottom three with that. The only teams worse are West Ham and Burnley. So this isn't like a one-off. This has happened now for most of the season, I would say, nine or ten matches. And Nuno wasn't given that long for the same kind of reasons. And while they're not new owners, it is like a new kind of leadership team right at the top of the club. And I don't think they will want to be associated with this type of football for too much longer.

14:20Sure, but what would you do, Mark? I mean, you're the season ticket holder here. Well, I'd stick with Frank for now because I think you have to try something, don't you? Otherwise, you just end up jumping from manager to manager. But I would say if in the next four to six weeks, there aren't signs of improvement. And Solanke and Kulusevski, when they return, will make a difference to that attack. But there's only so much you can do if the tactic is to just hoof the ball forward. Richarlison's goal was a delightful finish, but it does come from a tackle, which was about the best thing that Tottenham did all day.

15:00The one thing I'd say in Tottenham's favour is, and I'm clutching at straws here, I think, is the fact that they do have some really key players out injured. But I think the fact that those players were injured before the season started or very, very early in the season. I can't remember exactly when Maddison did his knee. Yeah, before pre-season. Pre-season. Is that it tends to be forgotten that they're injured. And, you know, there are huge losses, Kulusevski and Maddison and Solanke, not to a certain extent, I suppose. But people seem to have forgotten about them. So say, by comparison, last season when Arsenal had various players dropping like flies.

15:46We were constantly aware of these absences because we saw it happen. I could be talking cobblers, but it crossed my mind. I think the interesting thing would be that these players are not used to playing these tactics. These are sort of, you know, Kudus and, oh, I suppose he plays for West Ham, so maybe he is, but you know, like Javi Simmonds, all these guys who are really good aren't used to playing that. And if they lose faith in the manager, because if you're not getting results, it's a bit like the conversation you've had about Jose and Conte before, that you just go, hang on, this is what we're doing.

16:16We're just waiting for Kevin Danso to jog up and hurl another one in the box. This isn't why, you know, I was the best player in my school slash academy slash country, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, we'll see. It does look like Arsenal in a great position for the title. I mean, I think a lot of us had written Liverpool out of the title race before this game, but they lost 3-0 at home to Nottingham Forest. They've lost six games already this season. I have said it before, and it doesn't mean you can't analyse their games, but I am just one voice but I'm giving them a total pass for the whole season because of Diogo Jota's death.

16:47Other people are less sympathetic but I think it is worth referencing every time we talk about them. But, Jordan, this was a brilliant win for Nottingham Forest. Their biggest ever at Anfield and for Sean Dyche, for a manager to come in and get a result like this is just enormous. And it should have been more. They had a legitimate goal, in my opinion, ruled out as well. It should have been worse. I think Liverpool started the game really well. they had a period in the first 30 minutes I would say where they looked they looked like they were back to themselves they were moving the ball pretty well I thought they were getting forward well they looked okay but it's just that thing of the minute you get a sucker punch at the other end it kind of just deflates all confidence in what you've been trying to build towards and that gave Forrest the confidence to be like actually we can win this they won there last year as well so they seem to in recent years like playing at Anfield but massive win for Forrest.

17:40But I think from a Liverpool perspective, it's quite embarrassing. And I think you framed the question correctly. I think I actually had Liverpool still in the title race. I think Arsenal's win yesterday, Liverpool are done now. If they weren't done before, they're definitely done now. And their battle now is to try and keep in the top four. And similarly, conversations around Frank's future at Spurs, I am starting to Liverpool fans talking about actually, can Arnest Slott turn this around? And the idea that you've won a Premier League in your first year, the previous season, isn't seeming to hold much truck with Liverpool fans because they say, the ones I'm speaking to, that was last year, when Liverpool Football Club, you can't lose six out of 12 league games.

18:18That's half your game. That just can't happen. And they're not seeing any signs that they believe he can turn it around. So that'll be a conversation I'm sure will develop in the next couple of weeks if they continue to lose games. But from a Forest perspective, huge win. They needed that. Deitch needed that as well. And I think they'll kick on from here on in. I mean, how much grace buried as winning in a Premier League give you? Surely it gives you a season, for goodness sake. I would think it should, but football fans and a lot of club owners are very, very impatient and intolerant of failure.

18:52I've no idea how the head guys at Fenway Sports Group are feeling about this. Probably not particularly happy. I had written Liverpool's title, Chances Off, but I didn't see this coming. like a 3-0 hiding at home, which, as Jordan says, could have been worse. I did hear some Liverpool fans, just to touch on what you were saying about Diogo Jota, I heard some Liverpool fans, I think, can't remember, it was on TV anyway, but they were saying that they think Anfield should stop singing the Diogo Jota song on the 20th minute, is it, of every home game because they're starting to think it might be getting in the players' heads.

19:35this game they were very dominant for the first 20 minutes and then things went south for them that could be a complete coincidence but i just thought it was worth commenting on but virgil van dyke spoke after the game about them losing battles not winning second balls there's too many senior players in that team just not performing virgil being one of them ibrahim and canata in mo salah the new signings haven't worked out yet or most of them haven't so So they won't win the title. It would take an absolute miracle for anyone to stop Arsenal, I think. But at what degree of failure is acceptable, I suppose, is the question.

20:16Alexander Rizak, the first Liverpool player in Premier League history to end on the losing side in each of his first four starts for the club. Six defeats in seven in the league for Arna Sotsmit. I mean, that is insane. You forget they won their first five, Mark. I mean, it seems so long ago. But what do you make of the Liverpool situation? I mean, you mentioned Isak there. he was terrible on Saturday doesn't feel like he fits into that team and I know that he missed pre-season but we're coming up to nearly December now, the idea that he shouldn't be in rhythm, he just doesn't at the moment, early days but at the moment he just doesn't feel like he fits into that team really I think the selection's a mess if you think that they kind of end up with Sabosh Light, right back, Graven Berkett centre back, that sort of feels like a manager panicking and not quite knowing what he's doing or unsure of what he's trying to do all the signings really have been poor you know Verts didn't start I think Kerkhez has been very vulnerable at left back and then Salah is completely off his game there was one moment in the second half when but he went to cross the ball with the outside of his boot and he just like went off the wrong part and and just sort of flew in the opposite direction and um you know he's been completely unsure of himself that relationship with Trent Alexander Arnold was one of the reasons why Liverpool were were so strong last season so um you know I think his absence is being felt those that are questioning slot I think is isn't more about the case of like first season was it mainly like Jurgen Klopp what he was building towards and he was kind of able to just add a bit and now he's got to do it by himself and you know it's not happening so I think that's the reasons why but on Forest they were back to kind of being how they were under Nuno Murillo particularly at centre-back was just outstanding the whole game the way he blocks everything you know really a defender I enjoy watching yeah Elliot Anderson as well made one brilliant block from McAllister.

22:22Just a date for your diary then. Tottenham, Liverpool, 20th of December, 5.30. It'll be absolute terrible. It'll be the worst game of football. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. Anyone's ever seen. Look, you never know. Liverpool could click, couldn't they, after Christmas? We shall see. That'll do for part one. Part two will begin at St. James' Park.

22:46Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. if you like cricket and you like podcasts and you have time in your hands because test matches aren't very long anymore why not listen to the guardian ashes weekly featuring incredibly urbane and affable host i didn't write i did write this uh the latest episodes uh with jeff lemon ali martin and jim wallace looks back at whatever that was in perth search guardian ashes weekly i have to say max i i listened to your ashes preview i was out running yeah and i had it on and i was i try not to listen to podcasts they're going to make me laugh when i'm out running because it's not conducive yeah but i was chuckling away to myself at the positivity from the english contingent before a ball had been balled or a coin tossed just for the record barry you know i do have a podcast which is intended to make you laugh but I'm glad that the other one that isn't intended to make you laugh did make you laugh.

23:44But there we are. Let's go to St. James' Park. Newcastle 2, Manchester City 1. David says Manchester City are looking propitious, aren't they? I checked it. It's the closest word to being the opposite of ominous. Yeah. I mean, they lost to Newcastle just at the time when we thought they were going to turn the screw. Well, didn't Pep say they were going to turn the screw? His big message on Friday was the season starts now. We've had our international breaks. We were 11 games in. This is when the season starts. Well, that camera operator took it in the ear, didn't he? I thought maybe he was saying, I said it started here.

24:21Or maybe he said, you are so, so, so, so good at your camera work. Anyway, it was a really good game this, Mark. Lots of incredibly early, sort of the misses got worse and worse, did they? Or maybe not. Because Harland's miss was sort of bad for him. Barnes is amazing. And then Foden, you think, well, that's definitely going in the corner. so you just thought no one will score in this game Foden's I think was was the worst of of them um and if that goes in maybe you have got a different game I think you mentioned it there just how you know just a really fun match um to watch probably the game of the weekend just in in terms of the quality on show Harvey Barnes's winning goal I don't actually think there's been enough credit um given to that one because it's not an easy skill the way that he kind of flicks it in.

25:07I agree. I wouldn't be too harsh on Manchester City. This is not going to be, I don't think, a City side that can go and win 12-13 in a row. I didn't think the performance was that bad. I think it suggests that they will. I think they'll be Arsenal's closest challengers come the end of the season. If Foden scores or Haaland scores them chances, then maybe you've got a different game. Newcastle away is a tough match. and you go back to August or September when Arsenal sort of won that game feels like a sort of pivotal moment maybe in Arsenal season and yeah, I just think it's a really hard place to go Newcastle, very aggressive in midfield and could have gone either way and Newcastle won and I enjoyed it What a lovely review I think also, Jordan, Man City should have had a penalty there I mean, I don't like VAR then you sort of think well, Fabian Scher has absolutely taken out Phil Foden.

26:04I know there is something about if you kick the ball a long way or if it's a shot or a perceived shot that it's sort of less likely to be given than if he just takes a little touch. But it is a blatant, it's such an obvious foul. I just can't sort of, you're watching it going, how is that not, how are people not giving that penalty? What's going on? It's a shocker. It's a shocker. It's a blatant penalty. It's not even a debate. It's a clear penalty. And you're right. for someone to see that and to not straight away be like, what's the penalty? It's not even debate. It's not like a contention one.

26:35It's a clear penalty. For them to not get it is a shocker. I wonder if that was the reason why Pep Guardiola was so animated at the end of the match or if it was because he felt that the winning goal was offside. I couldn't quite work out why Guardiola was... I think he felt... Everyone seems to say he felt that Donnarumma was fouled for the second goal. Okay. But I don't know. I don't think he was. I thought Rob Green was on match today. days have explained it quite well going, I don't think he was. But I mean, Pep has right to, if he was going to be angry, and I don't think it's the camera operator's fault, but if he, you know, like that is a penalty and that just changed that game, I guess.

27:11It is and it probably does change the game as well. But I think there's a big issue with City that everyone was waxing lyrical about City after the Liverpool win. City are back, watch out Arsenal, City are coming. And although it was a really good win, in that Liverpool game, Liverpool could have had a couple of goals. I mean, they had a legitimate goal ruled out, I felt. And then a couple of the chances to score in that game. I don't think City, I'm just not having City. And what I mean by that is they'll win lots of games, but they're still very easy to create chances against. They concede a lot of goals still.

27:43And, you know, it's been flagged before, but if Haaland doesn't score, they do seem to struggle to kind of get enough goals to kind of get maximum points from games. So as much as I think they were maybe unlucky, I agree with Mark, I thought City did play quite well in this match. I don't think they're as good as people were making them out to be. And this defeat wasn't a massive surprise for me. Just quickly on Newcastle, I'm glad they won this game. One, because I'm an Arsenal fan, but also because there was talk starting around Eddie Howe and whether he had reached the ceiling with Newcastle.

28:17And I'm not quite sure he has yet. And I like him. So I'm really glad that he kind of dismissed those kind of naysayers about how well he could continue to do with Newcastle with a big win against a team like Manchester City. Yeah, and Baz has mentioned it before, but that's his first win against Pep and I think 19 attempts. I think the second time in two decades that Newcastle have beaten Man City. So lots of monkeys up lots of backs there. Worth talking about Harvey Barnes for Scotland, Barry? Or not. Yeah. Or not, or not. You don't have to. It doesn't sound like you want to. I wasn't expecting that, if I'm honest.