Arsenal triumphant as Liverpool’s crisis deepens: Football Weekly Extra

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30I'm not saying Van Dijk's in a natural position for that one. And then Spurs needed to give it a go, and they gave it a go in Paris. Took the lead twice, but didn't factor in quite how good Vettinia is before losing it all in the second half. But to dare is to do, and they dared. They're just not as good as some other teams. Add to that four for Mbappe, a vintage Simeone charge down the touchline, and you've got a lot to look back on. Then a Premier League preview. What are Sheffield United's owners thinking? And the WSL apologise for an influencer cup draw. As always, we'll answer your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

1:03On the panel today, Barry Glendening. Hello. Hi, Max. Welcome, Nicky Bandini. Morning. And hello, Archie Rintat. Hey, Max. The furious debate before the episode about what we begin with. But we're going to start at the Emirates since Arsenal are top of the league. But difficult to choose between that and Liverpool, I guess, and maybe even Tottenham. But Arsenal 3, Bayern Munich 1. Marissa says, at what point do we accept that Arsenal are going to win it all? So two sides with 100 % records so far in the Champions League, probably the two best in the competition so far. And, you know, this could be the final in however many months time.

1:42I think it's been, Nicky, long enough since we asked you something like, are they the best team ever? Or like, how good is this? Or anyway, give us some perspective because it must be great right now. The last few days have been brilliant as an Arsenal fan. Yeah, I mean, obviously, like all jokes aside about the fact that people get a tiny bit ahead of themselves. Bear in mind that the best team in Europe by a mile last season was PSG and they barely got through the group stage. You don't know who's going to be playing the best football at the end of the season just because the team's playing well in November.

2:13But as a fan, as well as obviously someone who covers football, but someone who has been an Arsenal fan since I was a kid, like you really struggle to remember a moment when it felt as good as this like it feels like it's been a while since it's felt anything close to as good as this and specifically there's something about this matchup with Bayern Munich I think that feels like a confirmation or a validation perhaps a better word of what has been going on recently because this is the team that and I know that we're now talking seven years ago eight years ago but in 2017 beat us 5-1 twice This was a team that was always just that insurmountable obstacle for Arsenal.

2:56And even more recently than that, obviously, was a team that Arsenal still couldn't seem to match up to. Obviously, we talked about eight years ago, you were talking about a team that has Laurent Koscielny in it against a team that's got Arjen Robben and Robert Lewandowski in it. So it's a very different era to what we're playing right now. But I do think that coming off the back of clobbering Tottenham in the league to come into the cup and have this sort of performance against a team that really is playing. Declan Rice did it at full time. The best football in Europe. Bayern Munich play some really nice football.

3:23They played it again last night. They played really good football. It feels like, not that it necessarily needed rubber stamping, but it does feel like a rubber stamp on my goodness. This team isn't just good. It's really, really good. And Barry, you know, the goals come from everywhere. They've got so many different players who've now scored four, five, six goals. The set piece delivery of Sack and Rice, I know we've talked about it before. it's insane how accurate it is. It's just sort of like these arrows like firing in at Manuel Neuer. We'll get onto him going for a jog in a bit because that's clearly the greatest moment of the game.

4:01But, you know, short of just saying Arsenal are good again, you know, does this confirm things for you, Barry? Does this make you think, you know, they really could run away with things? I think it's a possibility, but we know how quickly teams can inexplicably collapse. We know, I mean, people talk about their strength and depth. I think potentially a serious injury to Declan Rice could be potentially ruinous to their season. The deliveries, not quite arrows. Arrows tend to go straight, but yeah, Bukayo Saka's delivery for the opener was absolutely perfect. and in the absence of Gabriel they have Jurien Timber on hand to foul the goalkeeper and score which is handy another example of their strength and depth I'm being slightly facetious there but it was a really good goal they're a terrific team that second half performance yesterday I mean they could have gone 2-1 down they probably should have when Jonathan Taz sent Stanisic away and he shot when he should have squared the ball I think he had three Kane Alise and Leonard Karl all waving what a player he looks by the way Leonard Karl only 17 but yeah a brilliant second half performance from Arsenal the Arsenal friends of my acquaintance and there are quite a few of them they are all being very tight-lipped but I can tell they think this is the season but they're saying nothing they're keeping their mouths shut for now oh I don't blame them I don't blame them look yesterday Archie we got a bit of perspective on how good is this Barcelona team at Chelsea be and Nick has already alluded to it but it is worth confirming it is not easy to beat Bayern Munich is it?

6:00It's not just a few things to add I remember when Bayern beat Arsenal the last time in the Champions League and they'd been thinking before about signing Declan Rice and they felt vindicated by the performance that Rice didn't put in there. I wonder if the performance that Declan Rice put in last night was something of a response to that because, yeah, like a sushi restaurant, Rice was everywhere. It was absolutely amazing how he would go for a 30-yard run forward, and then he lost the ball, but he's then sprinting back at the same velocity. And that moment where he did exactly that and dispossessed Harry Kane with a sly tackle gives it the big one to the fans.

6:51I thought he was superb. The truth is Arsenal were a cut above anything that Bayern have faced this season. The fact that they didn't have Luis Diaz was I think the tipping point here. That compared to the PSG game in that first half where they dominated PSG, they certainly lacked a physical quality to them last night. That Lennart Karl has been able to come in 17 years old and be as imposing. That finish is really not easy, even if you're right in front of goal. And it was very much I'm him energy from him. From a Bayern perspective, this is the first defeat of the season, as you've mentioned.

7:42They've been playing really well this season, 18-game unbeaten run over. They've done this without Jamal Musiala and Alphonso Davies out injured. A thinner squad than before. But I think by looking across at Arsenal and seeing the strength and depth that they have, of the fact that you can bring on Calafiore and a minute later, he's storming down the touchline to provide that assist for Noni Maduweke. They will store this defeat. It will be intriguing to see what happens come March, April, because this Bayern side under Vincent company have shown their capabilities in learning. I thought it was really interesting you say store this defeat, Archie, like the response of Harry Kane right afterwards being like, well, we'll see, basically pretty much said we'll see you again in the spring.

8:26is more or less, I'm paraphrasing, but it basically was, well, we're going to be at the later end of this tournament. We're expecting you to be there. So see you there. That's kind of how it came across. And what I loved about this game, actually, all around, I mean, you talked about Declan Rice being everywhere and he was. Rice was absolutely monstrous. And I can't say enough about how good of a footballer he's become. I thought Zubimendi was great in the Arsenal midfield as well. But I do think that it's worth saying, talking about players being everywhere, especially when you consider that he is a centre forward.

8:59Harry Kane was putting himself about last night. Harry Kane was not shy in getting about the pitch. And what I was just getting to with this game was this game sort of didn't matter because both of these teams could afford to lose and still more than likely go through in the top eight, go through to the last 16, not have to do that extra playoff round in the knockouts. and yet neither of them took it lightly. Arsenal I think made two changes from the game against Tottenham even though they've got Chelsea coming up next. I don't know how many changes Bayern Munich made but this was basically full-strength teams going at it at full strength and I think that was to some degree a reflection of where both these teams are in their development and their identity is they actually really wanted this chance to put themselves up against someone who they see as a direct rival to win this thing and two, they want to say, okay, let's get the measure of you.

9:57So I think there was, as a spectator, enjoyable, but also maybe as a psychologist, interesting level of intensity to this game, given that you could say it didn't matter much. I mean, we mentioned Cucurelli yesterday being possibly the best left back in the Premier League slash Europe slash the world. I mean, Calafiori is up there because he is some player, isn't he? That ball for Maduweke was great. A lovely moment for Maduweke. And then we get to the Martinelli goal, Sean says, did I just see Manuel Neuer walk past the living room window?

10:29Honestly, Barry, when I first saw it, because you don't see the camera, you don't know Neuer, I thought it was a pitch invader. I was like, I genuinely thought, I genuinely was like, who's that there? And we know Neuer comes out and it's a wonderful touch from Martin Lee, but it was so funny. Yeah. For anyone who didn't see it, Michael Elisa had the ball on the right wing while Bayern were attacking, he kind of ran into a blind alley, was dispossessed, and his former Palace teammate, Ebericchese, sort of launched the ball over the top for Martinelli to chase. And Martinelli set off about, I don't know, what was it, five yards inside the Bayern Munich app?

11:14He met Neuer sprinting in the other direction. and Martinelli I presume was intentional I'll give him the benefit of the doubt brilliant first touch off his knee to take the ball and pass Neuer and take Neuer out of the game and then he had the fairly straightforward task of slotting the ball into an empty net from about 25 yards out but yeah Neuer massive rush of blood to the head I presume he thought he could get to the ball before Martinelli he didn't but I think his head was gone he was at fault for the first goal we know how good Arsenal are at corners but he did come and flap and having got a little nudge from Timber who ended up glancing the header in Arsenal could have scored from another couple of corners I think was it Marino headed one a very pretty straightforward chance down and wide and Neuer pulled off A couple of what on the face of it looked good saves, I would say a couple of them were lucky, whereas he was all over the place and the ball just happened to hit him.

12:29So it wasn't a particularly good game from him, but the game was more or less lost by that stage anyway. I love seeing people who are brilliant at what they do make really terrible mistakes. It just makes me feel bare about myself. The thing is that rush of blood to the head is a regular occurrence, except that most of the time for Manuel Neuer in his career, it's come off. And as someone who watches Bayern live most weeks, the thing that you don't see on the usual camera one shot is that every corner that Bayern get, Manuel Neuer does this thing almost like a fox, kind of marking his territory where he'll just come and sneak over the halfway line.

13:17He tells his shit on the goal line. That's what I was going to say. It seems like that to me mentally, as if to say, like, just to let you know, I'm here. What an image I've given Barry there. That would be tremendous. To be fair, it wouldn't be the first act by a German goalkeeper on the pitch, given that Jens Lehmann famously once relieved himself next to his goal post. What I would say, in a more serious tone, is that respect to Arsenal for the speed of that turnover. It was eight touches in 12 seconds from the ball leaving the Arsenal penalty area to the ball going across the line from Martinelli.

14:02But there is a little thing for Bayern that is, that's the third game running that Manuel Neuer has made a rick. and six of the last nine goals they've conceded have been from set pieces, they are still miles clear in the Bundesliga. No one is going to catch them. But this is, I think, is something that they're going to have to work on. And they will because they are very thorough with the way that they work. The Vincent Kompany mantra has always been, when we're great, let's not get too high. When we lose, let's not get too low. And they sounded pretty even after it as well. But as Barry says, when you see somebody as good as Manuel Noy and making mistakes like that, the thing is it empowers a lot of people to think, well, that's okay.

14:50I can get away with that. And the thing is, I think the true show of Manuel Noy's greatness is that after that goal, you see him race out again, but he doesn't care and he does a magnificent pass down the left and that shows you the level that he still has, even if he is not at his zenith right now. Zenith. Yeah, worth saying. He hasn't signed for Zenith yet. I mean, that'll be it at the moment. But yeah, Arsenal have never lost a game. Arsenal have never lost a game when Martínez found the back of the net. He's scored in 50 games. They've won 41 and drawn nine. That is from Opta. That's an interesting statistic.

15:28And I liked Bayern Munich school socks. Just to bring us full circle, talking about the intensity and talking about the fact it's a long season. Arsenal look great now. I think about Inter last season, he went for the quadruple, overexcited themselves, won nothing at all. So I think that's worth saying. But the reason actually that you feel like this Arsenal team might weather it is because Martinelli, who is nothing like a first choice player, is still that sort of effectiveness of player because you can lose Trossard and suddenly Maduake is back and scoring his first goal. I know it's not an original point, but I do think that is what makes this group feel different.

16:00It's just the depth of those options is really extraordinary. To Anfield then. and look we've said before and we will keep saying everything surrounding Liverpool needs to be contextualised you know the impact of Diogo Jota's death and they get a pass from me whatever happens but a 4-1 defeat at home to PSV they've lost 5 of their last 7 in all competitions 9 in 12 in that run of the 7 they've conceded 3 or more 5 times it was their biggest ever home defeat in the Champions League you know Tusha says if a Liverpool fan decided not to cut his hair till Liverpool won 5 games in a row who would get a haircut up first, them or the Man United fan.

16:39And, you know, Slott is being asked questions, Barry, about his future. He said, I feel safe. I'm okay. I've got a lot of support from above. We're getting questions about, you know, would Inzaghi come to Liverpool? Is that a good idea? I saw Gareth Mountfield-Rap saying, you know, his time is up. And it's extraordinary when you think about it, isn't it? Yeah, I think I'm surprised to hear the The lads from the Antwerp think his time is up. Yeah, I don't know if it's all of them. Yeah, it's not a criticism. I'm just surprised. I thought they would be more patient. I suppose the difference is I'm not a Liverpool fan, so it doesn't matter to me that Liverpool are on this bonkers losing streak, whereas it does very much matter to people who are invested in the club.

17:30And it's a terrible run. I have no idea what is going on in the minds of Slott's employers, so it would be ludicrous for me to say whether I think he'll get fired or not. But if he keeps losing games like this, he will at some point lose his job. I'm surprised by how little he seems to be doing to change things. There were some shocking performances from various Liverpool players last night. but Mo Salah for example was hopeless and has been hopeless for some time but he seems to be undroppable see also Ibrahima Kanate Virgil van Dijk is not playing well why does Milos Kerkers keep getting sent out into a hail of bullets when he's clearly having a terrible time but his confidence has bottomed out and he just shouldn't be starting games Curtis Jones gave several interviews after the game last night and one he described Liverpool as being in the shit in another he and he was saying that Liverpool players need to start smashing into tackles and make people afraid of coming to Anfield again because teams are no longer afraid Archie sent the clip around this morning and one of the comments underneath was that Curtis Jones sounds like someone who isn't a Scouser trying to do a Scous accent, which I thought was quite funny.

19:03But I wasn't even sure if the interview was real or not, but it was. Me neither, yeah. It was a real interview. But Curtis Jones was horribly at fault for one of the goals where I think it was the third PSV goal whereas a player sauntered past him he made no effort to chase him. Mo Salah was horribly at fault for PSV's second goal where Mario O 'Jr just sauntered past him with the ball and Salah made no effort to chase him. The only Liverpool player I could see who's playing anyway decently is Dominic Saboswine. And then last night as well with Alexander Isaac didn't start. Like he can't get in that team.

19:49that's unbelievable what a disappointment he's been so far Newcastle fans must be absolutely laughing their heads off at what has become of their former star striker during the summer Isaac was being touted as the best striker in Europe I mean he's not even the best striker in the Liverpool squad any talk of him being the best striker in Europe was laughable I think even at his best but he must be embarrassed at what's going on. But yeah, a really shocking performance by Liverpool last night, but not a hugely surprising one. Essentially with Isak, isn't it? It reminds me a bit of when Andy Cole went to Man United because he couldn't miss at Newcastle, Cole.

20:39And obviously he came good at United, but for a while he wasn't great. And there was this just kind of, what's happened here? I like Izek when he came on looked like he couldn't really play. You need a hierarchy in a club where everybody knows what their roles and who is bigger in terms of the stardom ranking. And I think the problem is, and I know this has been said before, but I think it bears repeating that you have so many players there who think I should be the star. and I look at the fact of losing Nunes and Diaz and I think too often with those two, people looked more at what they couldn't do rather than what they were doing because they were giving a lot to the team in terms of dynamic and off the ball.

21:34And you see it now when, I mean, Salah's defending for that. It looks more like he's trying to do some sort of rushed ticket inspection on Marrow Jr. and then he just gives up. It's bizarre. And I'm seeing also from Liverpool fans saying that, well, does Mo Salah also want to stand up for this team in the media? Because Virgil van Dijk's done it enough and Mo Salah never comes out and speaks to anyone unless he wants a new contract or something along those lines. And it does come back to the original point and you listen to all the voices that we're hearing from Liverpool players. And I mean, Andy Robertson as well when he was on Scotland duty.

22:11And I think that the grief from Diogo Jota still plays a role in terms of how everybody is suffering with themselves right now and doesn't know how to resolve the situation. No doubt Arna Slott is also making tactical errors here as well in terms of what are the best tactics for his team. but it's difficult I think with the media cycle and the way that we work which is when a game comes there's an expectation that we need to find a fresh angle on something and a fresh perspective and when the answer is grief which is the most unlinear thing of how it affects you and particularly as a footballer when you are sitting in a hotel room on your own for so much of the time and you're left to think about things.

23:00And yet you cannot say those things in our environment because those are not accepted. It's a really, really complex situation. And yeah, it's a difficult one to explain. I just want to add to that, because I thought it was a really interesting point made by Stephen Warnock on Match of the Day. When people talk about changing manager, because I think Archie spoke really well to that complicated nature of grief. When you talk about changing manager which I think is crazy anyway this early after he's won the league title last season but Stephen Mornick was making that point of a new manager is going to walk into that situation of grief and how complicated would that be if someone has then got to step into a situation that is not their grief surrounded by people who are dealing with that grief I think there's another really important point actually which the club needs to weigh up and consider if it is I don't know, we're probably over-discussing this change of manager angle, but it has been picked up and mentioned, but I don't think it's on the cards.

24:04Yeah, no, no, I agree with all of that. I think it's so fascinating what confidence does. And for whatever reason, that confidence has gone. And also, Nicky, I think because football is so ruthless, isn't it? That now you could see PSV could smell blood. Like any team now will go to Anfield and go, like, they're not on it. and there is no, like, reputation counts for zero, basically. And they just went there and they would pick them off. Yeah, I mean, that's the part of the Curtis Jones comments that perhaps is true, is that there is no fear factor at Anfield now because of how things have gone.

24:40And the crazy thing is that it certainly seemed like Liverpool had plenty of chances to win the game. Van Dijk hits the bar at 1-1. You get Gakpo with a backheader posed from a lovely cross from Shopperle at 2-1. There were plenty of chances for Liverpool to score goals in this game. But it did feel like, in part because of the things guys have already mentioned about how sloppy and lazy some of the tracking back was, absent the tracking back was, it felt like every time PSV got the ball going forward, they thought, fancy this, we've got a chance here, we're going to go for it. And I think that that is almost the reverse of the Arsenal-Bayan game where both teams played with such an incredible intensity.

25:21Liverpool lacked intensity in this game and it's a really mundane point. But at the highest level of football, that intensity is everything. If you haven't got that, you're not going to compete with teams, even if you're more technically gifted than them. You're not going to be able to beat teams if you're not as intense as they are. I mean, we talk about the grief thing and I do believe it's having an impact. Some people laugh at the notion and I think that's quite childish or simplistic view to suggest that it isn't having an impact. But I don't think you can lay the blame of people just not doing the basics, running, tackling, tracking back on grief.

26:03And for all the fire and brimstone of Curtis Jones' post-match rhetoric, and he's clearly very angry with his teammates, and he did go out of his way to say he included himself in this. Jamie Carragher made the point, like, instead of talking about what you're going to do, just do it. It's like when people announce they're taking a break from social media and, you know, you're going, well, you don't need to announce it. Just fuck off. Don't post on social media. Do you know what? I don't know if I agree with you on that. I'm really conscious that we now, because we think it's really important, now whenever we talk about Liverpool, this podcast has a grief section.

26:52I can imagine the listeners are like, I don't need to hear this grief section again. But if it is affecting you, I think it could affect how you train, how your gym work, all those things. Because it's such an elite level, if you're not quite at it in the gym, then you're not as quick as you were, and you're slightly off the pace, and your touch is slightly off, And then you're like, you're not feeling as good as you normally feel on the pitch. And that has an impact. I think it possibly could. I'm now beginning to wonder, am I some sort of psychopath? Because people close to me, friends and relatives have died.

27:28And I've just gone with things. So am I a weirdo? No, no, no. But I think that's the exact point, Baz, in that everybody reacts so differently to it. and that everybody is trying to process how everyone else is getting on with it because then there's no doubt someone in the dressing room who probably feels like you and is like, okay, I'm through this, but this guy is not because he's a lot closer. And I think that that's probably part of it in the way that they were all on the same page last season and then comes a life event like that, which just blows everything apart in terms of everyone's joint perceptions.

28:07And also, when most individuals go through this, it is not in the intense situation that a football dressing room is, which is just a... We've said this before that they're all human beings and it is true, but they are weird work environments. They're totally different to any other work environment, I think. And so, because you're there, you're sharing these huge high, these bonding moments every week. You're embracing, you're doing everything together. You are constantly showering together, and then running together, and then working out together. Then this goal happens, and then you embrace each other together.

28:53All those things, I think, create incredibly intense relationships for very short periods of time. They don't all stay friends for the rest of their lives. But I am conscious that, and it's a conversation I'm sure we'll have again, but I imagine some listeners are like, I just want to hear why Virgil van Dijk stuck his hand in the air like a volleyball spike, which is a legitimate thing to wonder. Yes, actually. Can I lighten the mood a little bit with Peter Bosch? Peter Bosch.

29:24What's the phrase in Harry potter yeah if i had a patronus i would want it to be peter bosch because just his whole energy is about entertaining and he gave this wonderful interview in german magazine el freunde um in this recent in the most recent edition where he was talking about his love of joan kreif and saying i want to give the spectators something to cheer about even if we lose sometimes if you play defensively you'll lose and then he does something which if your mate in the pub starts to tell a story where they are the hero, I think you go a bit, hmm, not sure about this. But because it's Peter Bosch, I let it slide.

30:03So he goes to the interviewer, can I give you one of my favourite moments? So you go, yeah, sure. So it was in 2023 in the Champions League against Sevilla. We scored a goal to make it 2-1, to pull one back after halftime and Sevilla's Ocampos was sent off. I'd already substituted one centre-back and now wanted to take out the second centre-back for a striker. So I was standing on the sideline with Patrick van Arnhoel waiting for the right moment. Then we scored the 2-2. What now? Should I take even more of a risk? I thought to myself, fuck it, I'll do it. Olivier Boscalli, our centre-back, came off on the other side.