Brendan Rodgers quits Celtic and an EFL special: Football Weekly

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30Wednesday, administration and a points deduction and a highly likely relegation isn't a reason to celebrate, but they can build again. And perhaps take inspiration from Coventry, who've battled back from their own troubles and find themselves top of the league, Frank Lampard flying. How are Millwall third and can they sustain it? Last season's relegated clubs all failing to use their parachutes well mean the league looks open. While at the bottom, what's happening at Norwich? It's League One manager sacking season, Noel Hunt at Reading and Darren Ferguson at Peterborough. And then in League Two, 13th placed Cambridge, just getting positioned to time their run and embarrass those Not The Top 20 frauds.

1:00All that plus your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

1:08On the panel today, from Not The Top 20, George Ellick, welcome. Great to be called a fraud at 8.06 in the morning. Morning, Max. I suppose you had us 18th and we're 13th. So in many ways, that might be hyperbole that I put in the intro. You have my apologies. Sani Rudrovadina, hello. Good morning. And welcome, Ben Fisher. Hi, Max. Let's start with Celtic. And we do plan to go to the Jazz Bar on Thursday and catch up with Ewan Murray. George, you sent us this tweet from Barry Anderson, a journalist of The Scotsman, who just wrote, Celtic's manager resigns. The club chief publicly savages him. The stand-in manager says Hearts can win the league, while Aberdeen appoint a penguin-stealing sports director who spent time in jail and modelled for Armani.

1:50That's enough for today. He'll never beat Scottish football. Well, we'll do the Aberdeen bit on Thursday as well. But the Celtic statement, So Brendan Rodgers resigned and he's been talking a lot about, you know, not getting the backing, certainly in the transfer market. And I'll read part of the statement. It's not all of it. It's quite a bit. But it says we met with Brendan regularly, including in December last year and at the start of the summer with the regular dialogue in between to discuss and agree our collective strategy, priorities and approach. Every player signed and every player sold during his tenure was done so with Brendan's full knowledge, approval and endorsement.

2:22Any insinuation otherwise is absolutely false. His later public statements about transfers and club operations came entirely out of the blue. At no point prior to those remarks had he raised any such concerns with me, Michael or any member of the board or executive team. In reality, he was given final say over all football matters and was consistently backed in the recruitment process, including record investment in players he personally identified and approved. When his comments were made publicly, I sought to address them directly. Brendan and I met for over three hours at his home in Scotland to discuss the issue.

2:54Despite ample opportunity, he was unable to identify a single instance where the club had obstructed or failed to support him. The facts did not match his public narrative. Regrettably, his words and actions since then have been divisive, misleading and self-serving. They have contributed to a toxic atmosphere around the club and fuelled hostility towards members of the executive team and the board. Some of the abuse directed at them and their families has been entirely unwarranted and unacceptable. I mean, Sonny, it's quite the statement. I think this image of this three-hour meeting where the chairman and Brendan Rodgers are there going, and this time, Brendan's sort of like scrabbling around trying to find some facts.

3:28It's bizarre, isn't it? Yeah, he couldn't once prove his points. I mean, that's something. I mean, I think you've got to say that something like this was inevitable in that the way that Brendan Rodgers left Celtic the first time meant he never quite won Celtic fans over completely. And there are 11 trophies in and all that success. But this level of evisceration is just, I don't think I've ever seen anything like it. It's absolutely incredible. I mean, it's almost enough for Brendan Rodgers to maybe turn around and go, you've called me reputational harm. Because that's so strong. And what, 15 minutes, I think, after the statement came out that he'd resigned.

4:14So, I mean, this has been brewing. just absolutely incredible. I'm almost lost for words about it. I can't remember. I mean, you know, Marinakis aside, this doesn't happen. This is something completely different. At least Brendan Rodgers will never have to ask Dermot Desmond for a reference in the future because it's now in the open. But yeah, it does feel like it's a very modern day fallout that's playing out in various forms of media. You know, you have Brendan Rodgers using his platform as a manager to basically pass the buck when he's in charge of a football team. you've then got you know the the board member someone you know in the highest echelon of celtic football club using his platform on the club website to discredit anything that rogers has said and basically you know almost like a character assassination really i'm sure rogers will use his platform as a broadcaster as most ex-managers who are high profile tend to be to kind of give his version of events relatively soon too.

5:14And then the person who's come in on a short-term basis to replace him has made headlines twice in the last month. First time by basically saying that he didn't believe in expected goals and the second time within the last week or so by saying publicly that he thinks Hearts are going to win the title and now he's Celtic manager. So it's a very modern-day saga. It's an absolute mess. from the outside looking in, it's incredibly enjoyable. And I kind of feel like it's not going to end here because, you know, as Sandy says, like surely Brendan Rodgers, when he read that statement, I cannot imagine just the absolute fury that must have been coursing through his veins.

5:55And that only leads one way. And I'm sure pretty soon we're going to, whether it's via the, you know, the LMA or whether it's via a radio station or whatever else, we're going to hear from Rodgers on his version of events. Yeah. I mean, I wonder, were the first time Celtic don't win, does Martin O 'Neill come out and say, our XG was better? Or does the reporter say, well, your XG was three? Or even unironically say, oh, we missed loads of big chances and they only had one. And he was like, Martin, that's what it is. So now what, Ben? I mean, there are a couple of interesting things. One is who takes the Celtic job.

6:30I mean, it's O 'Neill at the moment with Sean Maloney. But, you know, there's a big Ange Postacoglu sort of figure called Ange Postercogli that's what it is who doesn't have work at the moment which would be fascinating yeah having seen many of his 40 days in the job or so I don't know I feel like Big Ange just needs a bit of a big break yeah I mean Celtic I'm sure would be up for that I don't know I mean he's not going to get he's not going to get another Premier League job so maybe it would be quite a good sort of relatively soft landing given what he had success there so yeah possibly i just coming back to desmond i just find it remarkable this is a guy who's you know supposedly publicity shy but don't hear from very often and then when he does come out he's just absolutely gone for it and roasted rogers um so yeah it's gonna it's gonna be a good uh couple of weeks i'm sure yeah and then for brendan rogers i guess sanny already quite short odds for wolves and west ham you know like new no leaves west ham it's total circus isn't it But you wonder if he's timed it Because he's just fed up Or that he's chatted to someone In the Premier League I mean surely not Surely Look at what happened to Ange If you go straight out of one job Into another I know they're totally different Sorts of managers But would you really want to Bring that on yourself?

7:47Brendan Rodgers going to West Ham Can you imagine how quickly That would sour? I mean that would sour Before he even got there I mean that would be just incredible Surely not I mean it would be amazing For the Celtic fans If he did just tip up again like after the last time he just tips up at a new club i don't know there's something about managers they have this because i mean i i think you know i think we're all i don't know you can't talk for everyone but i think most people who talk about football go if i got a five million payoff i would have a i'd give it a couple of months do you know what i mean but maybe it's different you're a manager anyway look we'll talk about it more on thursday and more will happen no doubt between now and thursday let's talk about uh the championship start with sheffield wednesday They've been placed into administration, deducted 12 points.

8:30Fans described it as one of the most bittersweet days in our 158-year history. The Sheffield Wednesday Supporters Trust said, entering administration was the inevitable outcome of years of financial mismanagement, a lack of accountability, and repeated failures to engage credible buyers. Administration is not something to be celebrated. It needn't have ended this way, but we're overjoyed to have Chancery out of the club. Manager Henrik Pedersen said, Now there's a belief, a hope, there's a feeling of looking towards better days. when I close my eyes, I can see a bright future for Sheffield Wednesday.

8:58And the administrators, the joint administrator, says they have four or five serious bidders and the club could have new owners by the end of the year. I know we've talked about administration before on this pod, but George, it is worth reminding listeners what this exactly means for Sheffield Wednesday. Yeah, for sure. I mean, administration normally, in football terms, it comes kind of at the end of the road when there are no prospective buyers, there are bills that are unpaid and effectively administrators are called in in order to clear the decks, ensure that the club can continue to operate by raising money whichever way possible whilst also looking for new owners.

9:33And it can come with a severe chance of existential threat. And that's why normally when a club goes into administration, it's a terrible day, a dark day for the club. As the statement says with Sheffield Wednesday, administration in itself is nothing to cheer. It's nothing to celebrate. But in this case, it feels like the start of the road rather than the end of it because we know and we've been led to believe over years rather than months that there have been prospective buyers interested and serious about buying Sheffield Wednesday and that interest hasn't turned into anything solid because of the demands and the inflated price that Transiri has wanted for his asset in Sheffield Wednesday which is well beyond what it was worth and well beyond what anyone in their right mind would pay for it and so firstly new administration means that the chancery era is over and that is a massive thing to celebrate because you know unlike other um owners who've been you know whose whose era has or tenure has turned incredibly uh poisonous with chancery it's been total mismanagement um rather than necessarily it hasn't been been based in evil it's been based in pure incompetence and an inability to manage the the affairs of sheffield wednesday effectively that has and then and also to to kind of leave the table when needed which has led led them into this position his reign is now over and within minutes of the club being put into administration we saw the chancery seats in one of the stands at hills were being pulled out in a pretty powerful message and against oxford on saturday in the pre-match um um kind of entertainment i guess there was a very moving message put on the big screen as well, effectively saying that Trans-Syria had been removed and that the club was rebooting and showing some amazing parts of history.

11:27Now, the good thing is that the fan base have been boycotting home games and therefore plugging the supply line of funds towards Trans-Syria. And the first thing the administrators did when they came in was to say, that needs to change now as fans please come back in and they promise the fan base that all funds that are raised by ticket sales and merchandise sales and hospitality sales and everything else will go straight into the football club none of it will go to chanciri none of it will go to them and that meant that we saw you know the club that had been boycotted in the midweek game against middlesbrough with barely any home fans suddenly had 27 ,500 home fans in the crowd for saturday it feels like a club that has been reborn it feels like a club where the fans have got their their club back there was a statement released by the club and the players asking for them for them to come back and they they responded um in their numbers and then the other positive thing is as mentioned because there are serious buyers because there have been serious buyers over the last couple of years who still remain at the table it does feel like in other administrations that the possibility of finding a buyer has found has seemed difficult or unlikely in this case given that the asking price presumably has been slashed as to where it should be hopefully you know the administration won't be a long period and we see Sheffield Wednesday bought and then looking ahead to the future because Saturday showed you know what this club can be and it's been an absolute shell of what it should be because of the management of the previous owner.

12:51And Stanley you've been covering this a lot for Sky just give us an impression and George has touched on it of the just the vibe shift in Chancery leaving. It's quite amazing because when I arrived and you know I got a call that morning we've got rumours that the administration might happen and jump out the car and immediately you're on air and stuff and given like the context of every other administration we've ever seen and every other club that's ever been in this situation you start quite somber and quite you know it's a worrying time etc etc and after my first live one of the administrators actually came out paul and came and said hello can we have a chat and so immediately we had him on so that's literally opposite of what the previous ownership has been like and in the course of that conversation i was like you know is this a is this a good day for Sheffield Wednesday?

13:38I was like, yeah, it's a great day. It's one of the best days in recent times. And it completely shifted the mood, even in my head, as to just how huge this was. And then after that, went down to the club shop, and it was just a continual stream of fans coming in. And every single one was delighted. Like the first woman I spoke to had bought five brand new shirts. And if you're a Sheffield Wednesday fan, you'll know that the shirts are really expensive. I think Chan Ciri had them at 60 quid or something. And part of the supporters trust's boycott, which has kind of ultimately precipitated this administration because, yeah, the Middlesbrough game that George alluded to there, there were so few fans, it really became quite clear that they can't get any matchday revenue.

14:17The club will completely cease to be able to function whatsoever without any funds so that the boycott 100 % works. And all of a sudden, everyone's coming back. Everyone's coming back and everyone's buying stuff. Everyone's buying tickets for the match. It was absolutely incredible. I've never, you know, any journalist is doing Vox Pops where he talks to random people. You know, sometimes it's a bit of a grind. every fan just came wanting to talk to me and none of them were lunatics it was completely amazing so yeah shirts and shirts and shirts there was one guy who had a six-week-old baby and he was like in tears saying you know i've been wanting to just get them involved in my club get them in club merch i'm not being able to do anything like that he was there so many fans buying tickets it was something um absolutely incredible and yeah the the removal of the seats right so i don't know if you saw this, but 78 ,000 people were watching a live stream from Sheffield Wednesday's eSports channel.

15:09And all it was doing was showing the Shan Siri being removed very so slowly, so slowly. That just gives you an idea of just how big Sheffield Wednesday is. That's the modern way of measuring how big a football club is, is it? But the point is, you really get an appreciation of just how massive Sheffield Wednesday is, like beyond any of a kind of similar recent situation we've had like this with administrations, like some more of Maccasfield-Berry. This was something else. And the fact that the administration and a 12-point deduction actually is a good thing, kind of tells you how sorry the situation was.

15:45But also, there's all that potential. There's all those people there willing, ready and able to kind of bring it back to life, probably in League One, but bring it back to life nonetheless. Let's look at the top of the championship then. Coventry 28 points from 12 everyone's played 12 games Coventry top Middlesbrough three points behind them Millwall in third Bristol City Stoke Charlton making up the playoff places with Preston and Hull below them we talked about Coventry before Ben but it is still very impressive the run they're on is amazing they are unbeaten they're the only unbeaten side in the 92 I think so I believe so yeah it's just so much credit to Frank Lampard I guess and a lot of people were suspicious about it and have been for a long time of his managerial ability.

16:28Yeah, and I remember when he was appointed going to his unveiling at the arena and all these questions about, you know, why do you want to do this, Frank? You know, what's sort of the point? You don't need to do this. Well, you know, this is why. This is why he's doing it because he wants success. And, you know, Coventry are a massive club, especially with the sort of stable footing they're now on under Doug. They now own the stadium as of August, which is obviously a massive move given all of the kind of trials and tribulations they had with that and being homeless and all the rest of it. And now they're back.

16:59They're obviously proving quite a force under Lampard. And I think he's showing he's a good man-manager. And a good manager is an all-round package. He's got a good team. I don't think we should forget that. I think he inherited a good team. Mark Robbins obviously did a great job there. He's a Coventry hero, rightly so. But he's got players playing with maybe a bit more confidence than they had, particularly in the final third. Hadji Wright looks like he's maybe fulfilling some of the promise that he was signed to do so. I think they paid£7-8 million for him. Brandon Thomas Asante is the man in form.

17:34He's the top scorer in the division. Hadji Wright, I think they have the top scorer and the second top scorer, and Thomas Asante, which speaks volumes in itself. And top third as well. Is he? Yeah. So, they've got it going at both ends. In terms of Kyle Rushworth in goal is proven a really good signing. I know he's really highly rated within the FA on loan from Brighton. Before the weekend, he hadn't conceded in 613 minutes, which is pretty good going. So yeah, Lampard feels like he's onto something. I don't think it's sort of a massive surprise in the sense that his remit upon coming in was, you know, get us in the playoffs.

18:13But I suppose the fact they're top, unbeaten and kind of sailing away is a little bit beyond expectation. Yeah, I mean, they've scored 34 goals this season. Next highest, Hull and Bristol City have 20. So, you know, that's such a massive difference, isn't it? Middlesbrough are beaten at home. They've only lost once this season. Rob Edwards doing a very good job. I think people looking at the league will see Millwall in third and raise some eyebrows, George. Ted says, how will Arsenal fare at the Den in the Premier League next season? How are Millwall third, George? Tough place to go. no it's because they're good they're good you know Mill would have been a good championship side for a while now and they've probably had limitations because of the way they approach games and the way they've recruited and that's changed over the last two or three years including the appointment of Alex Neil who you know not every job has gone well for Neil but the job he did obviously is a you know in the infancy of his managerial career at Norwich but also the job he did at Sunderland where he came in mid-season at a Sunderland side who were you know very much down on their haunches in League One and he instigated and it clearly was his impact the rise on the pitch along there are obviously other mitigating factors and other factors that played into this but from a management perspective he was the one who was able to finally get Sunderland firing in League One and took them up into the Championship and in Millwall it feels like he's kind of properly got buy-in from everybody and they're a really solid defensive unit they've had for a long time certainly with Jake Cooper who's been there for a long while but Tristan Kramer is a player who's definitely destined for the Premier League or another top European league, a French centre-back who was at Brentford's, who's just a physical colossus, but also very good on the ball and a goal threat too.

19:58But they've also recruited a different profile, I guess, of attacking player. Ballo and Aziz on the flanks have both been really, really good. Ivanovic, who's a young striker, just 20 years old, but played a lot of minutes, scored a lot of goals last season, and is now fit and firing. it just feels like a total shift in terms of the way that they go about you know there's probably a perception of the way that Millwall should play and Alex Neal hasn't bought into that at all and they you know they've kept hold of that very solid spine and solid unit whilst adding some attacking flair and that they are very good you know sometimes at this stage of the season you look at teams that are maybe towards the top end of the table who you go like yeah they've had a great start to the season but they're probably going to fall away and there are a couple of those maybe now but in Millwall I think it would be complacent to assume that they aren't in especially in this situation the championship where it feels so much more open because some of the teams we expect to be too good just aren't it opens the door for teams like Millwall or Bristol City or Preston where if they do have a that season that can catapult them which previously would have been to the top six or seven maybe this is the season where given the lack of quality from the parachute payment teams this is where they could even go go further than that yeah we'll go on to those relegated sides in just a second but sani if you were to pick out any other top eight who you think could last the course well do you know what i i messaged uh john c sergeant friend who's uh he's the he's the match like presenter at stoke city and i just asked him a question like a stoke actually any good because the the fifth and the and they'd be in quite a few teams below them he sent me a six minute voice note which i'll try and i'll try and condense that's too long i'm gonna say an audio book from the from the stoke uh stadium announcer six minutes is too long of a voice note i'm going like 1 30 and i'm going i'm knocking it on the head there but but tell me what it said so if you edit it down that would be really useful yeah so um yeah they've beaten quite a few teams below them and the thing is i guess i guess the the they've been a kind of victim of the FFP kind of situation, right?

21:59There's only so much money to be able to invest and they've invested it quite poorly. But if you've got Mark Robbins in, and then you remember, as you mentioned with Coventry, just how good a job, how good a manager he is. And he seems to have got quite a lot of buy-in from this set of players. I mean, they're not... What he's also... Because I was at the Stoke Norwich game a couple of weeks ago. And if there is such a thing as Stoke DNA. He seems to have tapped into it. So you've got dedicated long throw takers for each side of the pitch. So you already get all the fans on side. The players they've got can be quite inconsistent, but at the moment they seem to be doing okay.

22:36Millian Manhoff's one who a couple of weeks ago stormed off when he was subbed off and upset everyone. And then there was all this pressure on him. Can he do well? And then he actually just did. And then he got everyone back onside again. So they've got someone mercurial like that who kind of blows a bit hot and cold. Bae Junho as well. It's kind of a bit of a mix but because they've got someone like Robbins in and because the league is so samey and you've got Victor Johansson at the back as a goalkeeper who's one of the best in the division. I still don't quite fancy them but then logic and everything else I've just found out thanks to Johnsy as well as the six minute audiobook made me think yeah do you know what they might be able to stay the course after all.

23:11So that's one of the teams that is a surprise there. Preston similar But the point is, there are so many teams not doing well that someone like Stoke, who then have that infrastructure, have that backing, have that money in the future, if they were to go into the Premier League, could do quite well. So, yeah, surprisingly, Stoke City might just last the course somehow. Then Leicester are 10th, Ipswich are 12th and Southampton are 20th. I mean, that's quite a lot to deconstruct, I guess. But it is odd that none of the sides that have gone down are firing. Yeah, I mean, particularly Southampton struggling two league wins out of 12.

23:45I saw them last week and there was some really good stuff, but they are struggling to get results under Will Steele, who obviously came in with much excitement and a really good reputation for the work he'd done in Belgium and France. It's a strange one because Salampton, let's be honest, they've been in this period of gloom for a little while. It's not a new thing for the beginning of this season, but clearly we expected more. And I think they signed probably two of the best players in the Championship last season in Tom Fellows and Finn Azaz from West Brom in Middlesbrough, respectively. So you're thinking, OK, that's sort of a cheat code maybe to just reinforce everything else that you've already got in the team.

24:24Shea Charles coming back from alone at Sheffield Wednesday. but it's just not quite happening for them. They're struggling to score as many goals as they would like. Cameron Archer's struggling up front. Adam Armstrong's a bit hit and miss. I don't think he maybe knows Will Steele the best team yet, which is always a bit of a worrying sign at this stage. As you say, they're not the only ones. Leicester started quite well and we had that kind of reassuring centre-half partnership of Wout Fass and Yannick Westergaard once again in the Championship. but it just feels a little bit stale to me there.

24:59I think maybe the solution there is trying... I mean, they are starting Jeremy Monger, the 16-year-old, who's just insanely good, insanely talented. And they've had some other academy players in the first team, Louis Page. I don't know. Maybe they just need to kind of just shift it again in terms of refreshing it a little bit. I mean, they've tried. They have brought in new players, Jordan James and Ramsey on loan. But yeah, as you say, it's not quite happening. Ipswich, I think, again, with Thierry McKenna, you kind of thought, okay, this is all going to be fine. It's all going to work out. And I think it may still well do.

25:32I'd probably be less worried about them than Southampton and Leicester at the moment, because the other Southampton and Leicester just feels something's not quite right. Just on Leicester, I was at their game against Wrexham where they had a load of chances and didn't quite manage to finish it. And Marti Sifuente said they were a bit arrogant, actually, and that's kind of one word for it. But, I mean, the biggest issue they've got, and it's insane that they just didn't manage to do this, was they just haven't replaced Jamie Vardy at all. There's just no real talisman up there. I mean, you've got Patson Daka starting games and he's just not that sort of player.

26:03You know, he's a bit streaky as well. He's not really got that physical presence. Yeah, you take Jordan James and Darren Ramsey, both lone players, out the side, and then you're kind of relying on Fatawu and Mavadidi to put crosses in and maybe a trundling IU to kind of do something with it. it's quite amazing that they're in this situation where recruitment has been so like short-sighted or just not kind of holistic that they're in this position. But then that's, again, one of the things the fans will point to and say, well, you know, we've been talking about the ownership kind of letting things slide for quite a while.

26:34But they have got all that money. They have got that parachute money in the future, you know, similar to the other clubs we mentioned as well. So you can still turn it around. But again, it feels quite simple. It feels quite simple to go and do that and try and, you know, have something a bit more like solid going forward like some options and you just haven't done it and it's quite remarkable they're in that situation trundling io that sounds like the worst of the three brothers sorry george it's just funny with leicester how you know and it's not funny for their fans but you'd almost assume it's a different owner because last time they came down from the premier league to the championship you know the the spend on the likes of coded winks was massive they went out and got Maresca and obviously the issue is that has left them in financial difficulty and has meant that we're still waiting to find out what the points deduction is going to be assuming there is going to be one this season but you know we're waiting to find out what that's going to be they didn't basically sign any players all summer until right at the end of the um of the window they hired marty sifuentes who did an amazing job at qpr but is a very very different profile manager to enzo maresca like it was almost as if they they they got the blueprint right two years ago and obviously circumstances you know meant they couldn't go and do exactly that again but i'm surprised how they there was no attempt to kind of repeat the trick at all in terms of playing style and the profile of player they've recruited um but as ben says you know in particular in manga and also you know fatah is another one because he's played for a couple of seasons he's still incredibly young um you know they've got two wide players there who are destined for big things all right that'll do for part one part two uh we'll cover the rest of the championship

28:21welcome to part two of the guardian football weekly um can we touch on birmingham city and wrexham for a second ben because there was so much expectation um around these clubs and and neither of them are i mean a few people saying they will just go you know bounce straight up again are you surprised at how they're getting on but i mean birmingham made quite a good start and it's kind of fizzled out a little bit. I saw them on Saturday. I thought there were some good things. There was, I don't know, maybe a tendency to overplay. That is kind of the style that they came up with, obviously, and it worked absolutely in League One.

28:55They have signed, again, so many new players. So it's been like a kind of total reset, really. There's not loads and loads of players from last season. And I think they do want to kick on. But I don't know. I think, have I been surprised? I think they're probably where we expected. I maybe expected them to be a little bit better, but I think it's just not that straightforward to come up and kind of blow the league away, as other teams have found. Wrexham, I think, they were probably a weaker squad. I did really like their summer recruitment. I mean, people will argue it was kind of a bit old-fashioned, maybe, or whatever, obviously getting Kiefer Moore in.

29:33I really like Lewis O 'Brien, who was at Swansea. Cody's not really worked, but obviously Danny Ward is now injured for several months. But I quite like that. I thought that kind of made sense, especially with Phil Parkinson in charge. Again, I don't think they'll be in trouble in terms of going down. So I think it's sort of mission accomplished from that perspective, if that's the case. Birmingham, I think, are so ambitious. It's just trying to sort of constrain that and maybe just rein that in. Probably just Tom Wagner himself is just so desperate to mix it with Aston Villa in the Premier League.

30:07but it doesn't have to happen this season. So I think, yeah, there's plenty of good stuff there. They have had a little wobble by their standards, I suppose, but I think that's what happens when you get 111 points in League One. Birmingham 15th, Wrexham 16th. I guess, George, with Wrexham, how many seasons can you finish in mid-Talable before a documentary gets boring? They'll find a way, I'm sure. Yeah, I mean, one I think is okay. I was at Wrexham on Wednesday night beating my team Oxford 1-0 in their first home win of the season and their home form has been so important to the way that they've progressed up the league so that you could kind of very much feel the relief when the final whistle went and they were pretty good like I was really unimpressed with them early in the season it felt like they recruited in a very weird way for the style of play that they were trying to play you know they were playing a really high line which wasn't really the way they've had success in the past and isn't really the way that Phil Parkinson's had success in the past with really slow defenders and teams were finding it incredibly easy to beat them on the turn and get them behind.