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In short
Champions League chaos—Bayern Munich beat Real Madrid 4-3 (6-4 on aggregate) in a frantic second leg with multiple lead changes, a Neuer error, and a controversial second-yellow red card; discussion also covers Arsenal’s 0-0 draw vs Sporting (through to the semis) and the upcoming Premier League title decider at Man City vs Arsenal, plus Merseyside derby and relegation/league-one/two notes.
Guests (panel)
Barry Glendening, Johnny (Lu), Max (panel host), Archie Rintut.
Guest backgrounds
Football writers/commentators and long-running Guardian Football Weekly panelists; they analyze tactics, refereeing, and club management (including Bayern’s Vincent Kompany and Arsenal’s Mikel Arteta).
Key claims
Bayern deserved the tie over two legs; Real Madrid’s midfield/control issues and player tantrums/wounded reactions hurt them; PSG will likely be tougher/more “together” than Madrid. Arsenal are through but lack “creative spark,” relying on defending and grinding; their corner threat has dropped sharply.
Notable examples
Arda Güler’s finish after Neuer’s misplaced pass; Mbappé’s acceleration and Trent Alexander-Arnold’s cross; Luis Díaz and Michael Olise goals; Camavinga second yellow; Sporting denied a penalty claim for a foul on Maxi Araújo.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOBayern vs. Real Madrid Match Analysis
0:45 to 2:12
A thrilling recap of the Champions League match between Bayern Munich and Real Madrid, highlighting key moments and goals.
“6-4 in aggregate in the end for the Germans.”
Game Dynamics and Key Players
2:12 to 4:54
An in-depth discussion on the dynamics of the game, focusing on player performances and critical moments.
“It's weird because sometimes after such a great first leg, it can take a while to get going in a second leg.”
Comparative Performance: Bayern vs. Arsenal
4:54 to 8:01
Contrasting Bayern's performance with Arsenal's, discussing urgency and attacking play.
“Barry, what did you make of this game, Barry?”
Tactical Insights: Bayern's Strategy vs. PSG
8:01 to 11:03
Exploration of Bayern's tactical strategy and how they might fare against PSG in future matches.
“But being able to produce that moment of quality with, you know, Musiala laying it off at Diaz and then Alise, who, you know, again, we haven't mentioned that much, who was unbelievable.”
Harry Kane's Impact and Legacy
11:03 to 13:05
A discussion on Harry Kane's performance and his potential legacy in football.
“When you see it curling, it's just they're both so perfect in slow motion.”
Upcoming Matches and Expectations
13:05 to 14:01
Preview of upcoming matches, including Arsenal and Bayern's league matches, and the implications for players.
“That was just an excuse to say Pongo Waring, really, Barry.”
Bayern's League Prospects and Harry Kane's Performance
14:01 to 16:40
Discussion on Bayern Munich's potential league win and Harry Kane's impressive scoring record.
“he's a smashing fella he's made the point I wasn't aware of this in his post-match interview that Bayern can wrap up the league on Saturday is that the case Archie?”
Referee Decisions and Player Reactions
16:41 to 18:56
Analysis of controversial referee decisions and player responses during the match.
“And Valverde had to come out and apologise to Madrid fans for not berating the referee enough.”
Real Madrid's Tactical Challenges and Club Dynamics
18:57 to 21:29
Exploration of Real Madrid's tactical issues, player dynamics, and coaching challenges.
“And I think that ultimately that's where it's costing them.”
Vincent Kompany's Impact at Bayern Munich
21:30 to 23:19
Discussion on Vincent Kompany's transition from Burnley to Bayern and his management style.
“Hey, I'm really happy to be proved wrong.”
Show all 26 chapters
Arsenal's Mixed Season Performance
23:55 to 28:00
Analysis of Arsenal's performance in the Champions League and Premier League amidst criticism.
“I do think that what happened when he moved from Burnley to Bayern is that he kind of got his, he got his playing career cancelled by everyone.”
Arsenal's Performance in Context
28:00 to 28:38
Discussion on Arsenal's current standings and performance amidst criticisms.
“You mentioned in part one, suffering as a unit.”
Anxiety of Arsenal Fans
28:38 to 29:25
Exploring the emotional experience of Arsenal fans during matches.
“Watching them is an ordeal for everyone, especially their own fans.”
Evaluating Arsenal's Strengths and Weaknesses
29:25 to 30:06
Analyzing the tactical strengths and weaknesses of Arsenal's gameplay.
“But Barney wrote, it can feel like trying to win by default, to win by drowning slightly more slowly than the other guy.”
Creative Challenges in Arsenal's Game
30:06 to 31:18
Discussion on Arsenal's lack of creativity and star players impacting performance.
“They are able to extinguish teams to the point where your only real option against them is to low block and try and frustrate them.”
Impact of Injuries and Corner Strategies
31:18 to 33:51
Understanding how injuries and set-piece strategies are affecting Arsenal's results.
“You know, title winning teams have star players who stand up and say, I'm just going to bang one in from 20 yards now.”
The Arsenal Phenomenon: Cultural Reactions
33:51 to 36:18
Exploring why Arsenal is often subject to trolling and criticism from fans.
“I suppose the question is, because Sporting didn't score against the Barry, but Sporting had chances in this game.”
The Relationship Between Fans and Social Media
36:18 to 38:18
Discussing the effects of social media on fan interactions and perceptions.
“You actually see it like the last few days, last week, as they got asked before the game, what do you think about people who don't think Arsenal's style is great, who think they're not very good?”
The Disconnect Between Online and Offline Fan Experiences
38:18 to 38:41
Examining the difference in perceptions between online and in-person fan experiences.
“and also a target, a target for other fan bases to attack and troll.”
Upcoming Matches and Title Implications
38:41 to 40:55
Previewing the significant upcoming match between Arsenal and Manchester City.
“And I know that if Arsenal win, then I am not going to have my peace.”
Analyzing Arsenal vs. City Tactics
42:07 to 44:31
Learn about the tactical challenges Arsenal faces against Manchester City.
“So it's rare that we've seen these two teams properly going at each other, at their peak, properly going at each other, in the way that you would associate with the City-Liverpool games, the great Guardiola-Clopp era.”
Relegation Battles and Team Dynamics
44:31 to 48:34
Discuss the current relegation threats and team morale in Premier League.
“But you're like, but that is not an easy thing for them at the moment, Johnny.”
Upcoming Fixtures and Predictions
48:34 to 54:27
Explore key upcoming fixtures and predictions for the teams involved.
“I mean, we probably should have got to it sooner, Baz.”
Historic Coaching Changes in Football
54:27 to 56:00
Examine recent coaching changes and their implications in football.
“Or a go-kart, buggy, whatever you called him.”
Women's Coaching Experience and Progression
56:00 to 56:51
Discussion on the influence of women in coaching roles and ongoing issues in German football.
“one or two people saying well how will this experiment go and you think well you wouldn't describe it like that if this was a man taking over.”
Media Coverage and Women's Rights in Football
56:51 to 57:14
Exploration of media representation and the state of women's rights in football.
“feels difficult this week, given that the German women's national team, one of their games is not being shown on free-to-air TV.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Max Rushden:This is The Guardian.
0:30wise.
0:39Hello and welcome to Guardian Football Weekly. There were two football matches in the Champions League last night. One was absolutely brilliant at the Allianz, Bayern Munich 4, Real Madrid 3. 6-4 in aggregate in the end for the Germans. They went into the game ahead, stayed ahead for 30 seconds before Real Madrid levelled it up. Arda Gula's lovely finish after Manuel Neuer's mistake. Bayern came back, Goula put Madrid up again, Kane for 2-2, Mbappe four minutes later. Then in the second half, it slowed down a bit. Camavinga getting a soft second, yellow, Luis Diaz scoring, Michael Alisse wrapping it all up beautifully.
1:07Bayern deserved it, Real Madrid are blaming it all on the ref for a change, but thank you to everyone involved. 10 out of 10, a tour de force. Meanwhile, at the Emirates, Arsenal did enough, just enough. Arteta called for fire, there wasn't even a spark, but they are in the semifinals of the Champions League, the only Premier League side to be there, and they defended pretty well. They do defend pretty well, The rest of it isn't pretty. You don't have to watch it. I mean, we have to watch it. Cue existential questions about the point of it all. We'll look ahead to the title decider at the Etihad.
1:33How will Arsenal approach that one? Defensively, you'd imagine. There's the biggest Merseyside derby for a while. Roberto De Zerbi's inevitable defeat at the hands of Brighton. And some big live show news for the pod. All that plus your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly. On the panel today, Barry Glendening, welcome. Hello. Hello, Johnny Lu. Hi, Max. And good morning, Archie Rintut. Hey, Max. We begin at the Allianz. Bayern 4, Real Madrid 3. And one of those games I don't really know how to analyse because it was so thrilling. Archie, my notes are in chronological order, but go where you want.
2:08What a brilliant game of football. From the moment that Manuel Neuer misplaced that pass, it was almost as if... It's weird because sometimes after such a great first leg, it can take a while to get going in a second leg. and yet that one it felt like the film that we were watching a week ago just continued exactly where it left off because just the the chaos that we saw from that and and and to be honest because who was expecting Manuel Neuer to make that kind of mistake even if he's actually done that kind of thing a couple of times this season for Bayern already it sparked the game into what I can only described really as a frenzy and we get to enjoy the fruits of that ferocious tempo that the game was played at and look Bayern were the ones who who were driving that tempo but I think because they were driving that tempo Real Madrid were only too happy to pick up off the scraps of it and it just made for an exhilarating watch to see how Mbappe was able to get in behind.
3:23Kylian Mbappe is a player you want to see open up in terms of on his speed, and when he's given that amount of space, then it is fun. But yeah, I'm also kind of at a loss as to where to really start to pick apart that first half, whether it's Andre Lunin's goalkeeping as well for the first buying goal at the corner. Weird, isn't it? He's like running back, isn't it? Like you're like, where were you? Because you shouldn't be, I've never seen a keeper sort of be running. It's almost like he's making a late, far post run or something. Yeah, it's bizarre. And you realise that actually it's Trent Alexander-Arnold who's blocking him off.
4:00And the way that Pavlovich just literally has to stick his head out to score it. You want to see these players play at that kind of tempo. that that is when football is at its most fun I think ultimately the game really disappointingly slowed down at halftime albeit not surprisingly given how intense everything was and and the moment that decides it is the red card albeit I think it is a red card because like Real Madrid had done plenty of those microaggressions during the game and just hadn't been caught and this time they were. And I think the only thing that's happened here really is that Real Madrid were treated like a normal team in terms of that's a yellow card offence for everyone else.
4:48It's just they look a bit surprised that they've been done for it. They're certainly taking it like anyone else would take it. Barry, what did you make of this game, Barry?
4:59Max Rushden:I loved it. I mean, it was fantastic. Both legs of the tie were brilliant. And last night we had slapstick goalkeeping, we had brilliant goalkeeping, goals of the very highest quality, near misses, red cards, seesaw and scoreline, post-match tears and recriminations. And then in the other game, crickets, tumbleweed.
5:28And I was actually wondering,
5:31Max Rushden:I was thinking, will Max have this top of the running order, or will it be Arsenal? And I was thinking, it has to be this. And I noticed that Champions League match of the day also had this game, gave it top billing, despite the presence of a Premier League side playing in the other game. But it was just wonderful. I mean, some of the goals. Are the Goulders finished from the Neuer mistake, was the way he curled that ball into the top corner from whatever, 35, 40 yards. Brilliant. His free kick was brilliant. There seems to be a debate over whether Neuer should have done better. I don't think there was much more he could do.
6:12Max Rushden:The Mbappe goal that involved Bellingham, Vinny Jr. and playing the cross into Mbappe. The acceleration to take himself past, I think it was up in Meccano. Unbelievable. It was like a video game cheat code, Luis Diaz goal, the Alise goal. I mean, even the Harry Kane goal was probably the most meh of the lot. And even that was a brilliant finish. It was just sensational. And I loved every minute. I was slightly sad it just didn't go to extra time because I'd have loved another half hour of that. Yeah. And it would be a crime against football to have led with the other game, I think. We will get to that.
6:57Does Arsenal make it into part two? For the first time ever, we have a part four, like a bonus track at the end. And I think at the end of it, Johnny, like Bayern deserve to go through, don't they? And it does set up the game that we really want to see, which is this Bayern against that PSG.
7:14Jonathan Liew:Yeah, I think over the two legs, they deserved it. I think it showed, I mean, we'll contrast this with the Arsenal game later. It showed what happens when two teams have this real restless urgency. this is not a slice on Arsenal because it takes two to tango right you need two teams to make a game but this is what happens when you have incredible attacking players given the license and the freedom and importantly the situation the game situation to roam and just do incredible things one thing we haven't mentioned yet is that there was a cross by Trent Alexander-Arnold for Mbappe which is unbelievable just these clips you know it's a skimming cross that was that just arced perfectly for for Mbappe who could well have scored but yeah I think Bayern have had the the more complete season so far so so they deserve it on on on that basis and I think they deserve it over over the two legs and I guess for for producing the decisive moments I think when it gets to sort of the 80th minute and you still think Madrid have probably you know 10-man Madrid away from home they might end up just grinding this out, even doing it on penalties.
8:24Jonathan Liew:But being able to produce that moment of quality with, you know, Musiala laying it off at Diaz and then Alise, who, you know, again, we haven't mentioned that much, who was unbelievable. So much of what Bayern did went through him. They are a great team to watch, companies, Bayern. Like, just a brilliant team, you know, domestically and in Europe. For all that, I still think Paris will absolutely take them to the cleaners. Because, I don't know, I think Paris are so much smarter than Madrid were here. They're so much more together and on it. And what we saw from them at Anfield, the discipline, just all the parts working together, being able to do every part of the game well.
9:07Jonathan Liew:I think Bayern are one of those teams that they're going to concede goals and Paris are just perfectly primed to hit them in those areas where they're slightly fragile. Archie? Bayern's best half of the season came away at PSG when they won 2-1 earlier in the Champions League. In the second half of that, they had Luis Diaz had been sent off, so it made it a very difficult game to analyse. And I do think that Johnny's writing that PSG can defend better and are willing to suffer more as a unit than Real Madrid are. The idea of a unit is not really a thing. at Real Madrid. But I think it's also just worth highlighting how significant a moment this was for Bayern, because when they win most of the times, it's not that close and they don't get to do it in the 90th minute.
10:06And the fact that it was at home as well, there are people who've been going to the Allianz Arena for longer than I have, who are saying that this was probably one of the best nights there in terms of atmosphere but also Michael Alisse for for all the goals and assists that he's racked up so far this is his best moment in terms of being able to clinch a game in that style that he did he's had some near misses in in in games where Bayern have gone out of the cup last season for example where he's come very close to executing but everything just aligned for him in that moment and the fact that this is Bayern's only Bayern's second appearance in the Champions League semi-finals in the last six years is something which speaks for Vincent Kompany as well this is legitimacy for him he would have faced awkward questions had they gone out here and I think given how close this game was and how we could easily be here saying Real Madrid did their thing again and the fact that they've been able to to go against that juju is it speaks to what to what company's done but I don't quite foresee what what Johnny sees in terms of them being torn apart but I think that it's going to be a cracking game yeah I think so I mean I think it is it's on those midfields if the PSG midfield totally clicks you know then they are they're better than anything I I think I mean you mentioned that at least they strike just I I mean, it's the same with Adagoulas I.
11:37When you see it curling, it's just they're both so perfect in slow motion. The camera angle, everything is perfect. That was in added time.
11:47Max Rushden:I thought, you know, Kane plays in the ball. You would think, oh, he'll go for the corner just to run down the clock. Oh, does he? Heck no. Straight towards goal and curls it past. Did you see what Kane was saying? No. Kane, when he gives him the ball, is going, okay Michael calm down now calm down and that's the thing about Elisa is that he just goes off onto his own rainbow road and goes well I'm actually gonna go do this I don't know if you've seen what he does before games when he comes out to warm up where he just he gets the ball and he hoofs it about a mile into the air and there have been times the season like there was once where it landed right next to company in the interview and Elisa kind of goes over sheepishly and goes sorry but it's kind of for me just symbolic of what goes through Michael Alise's mind the average person cannot understand it but don't want to understand it just want to enjoy what comes out of it.
12:43Imagine if John Barnes you know had done that you know when he tried to when he should have taken it into the corner in 89 and we should talk about Harry Kane Barry scored 50 in all competitions this season, joining an illustrious club, including Messi, Ronaldo, Gert, Muller, Dixie, Dean, Pongo, Waring, 50 in all comps for Villa in 1931. Good old Pongo. Good old Pongo. That was just an excuse to say Pongo Waring, really, Barry. But, you know, he scored and it was a brilliant first touch and a brilliant finish and in a big game. And, you know, if he keeps doing this, you might have to say he's turning up in these clutch moments.
13:21Max Rushden:Look, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Harry Kane is a terrific player, but there have been occasions where he has played in finals he shouldn't have with Spurs because he was on one leg. But you could argue that a one-legged Harry Kane is better than most two-legged strikers. But as it happened, it turned out he wasn't on those occasions. he has I'm not going to say let England down in in semifinals and finals but he hasn't delivered in the manner you might expect but he's a great player he's a smashing fella he's made the point I wasn't aware of this in his post-match interview that Bayern can wrap up the league on Saturday is that the case Archie?
14:14Max Rushden:Sunday Sunday it's on at the same time as Man City Arsenal which is great They have a cup semi-final looming and then they have this semi-final. So the jibes about Harry's empty trophy cabinet will be extremely redundant probably, or could be by the end of this season. He's a brilliant player. And I still remember his first season as a prolific goal scorer for Spurs, everyone making the case he might just be a one-season wonder. He really hasn't been, has he? 50 goals in a season is extraordinary. It is extraordinary. Yeah, amazing. He does have a trophy in the cabinet. It's worth pointing out.
14:55I am aware of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we're on to the red card, Johnny. It felt to me like one of those, the ref gives a yellow and then goes, oh, I've already booked this guy, so I've got to send him off. I don't obviously know. But then Ardegula is sent off after the game. Arbeloa is sent off as well. Carvajal shouting at the ref, it's your fault, it's your fucking fault. Jude Bellingham after the game, walking through the mix zone saying, it's a joke. It's impossible for it to be a yellow. Two fouls and two yellows. Rudiger saying, you've seen it, haven't you really? It's better that I don't speak.
15:26Have you ever seen something like this? UGG is the transcription, UGH. Jack says, does the fact that I really love watching Real Madrid players throw a tantrum make me a bad person? I suppose you would be annoyed because it's soft, but I don't know. I mean, I can see why he got a yellow. Johnny?
15:46Jonathan Liew:Yeah, it's one of those that referees so rarely give as a second yellow. It's always given as a first yellow or almost always given as a first yellow, but it's so rarely given as a second because of, and especially in a game of this consequence against what you have to say is a club of this consequence. But then I think he forgets, the referee just forgets, doesn't he? And he thinks, oh no, I've got to send him off now. I've got to send him off for this. and to be fair he doesn't hesitate and it's pretty silly from Camavinga who had a difficult second half and has had a very difficult season you know a lot of you know Madrid's accounts saying that you know this is the night when he may well have played himself out of Madrid you know Juameni was suspended he didn't even get a start and this obviously won't have helped his case with Madrid I think there was a certain do you remember when there was this kind of refereeing controversy last season And Valverde had to come out and apologise to Madrid fans for not berating the referee enough.
16:53Jonathan Liew:So, you know, initially he came out and said, you know, well, you know, these things can go either way. And such was the opprobrium and the dismay from Madrid fans that he hadn't lent into the conspiracy theory industrial complex. He then had to come out and revise his statements that, yes, of course, any previous statements I may have made were completely coincidental. We are the subject of decisions that are totally unacceptable against us. And, you know, there's kind of Rudiger upsetting the ice cart in the Copa del Rey final. There is an expectation, I think, for Madrid players that they will publicly perform this kind of wounded swan dance after a big defeat.
17:35Jonathan Liew:I don't think it's very healthy for them, actually, as a club. I think that the psyche of that club is all wrong at the moment. The balance of power, as Alonso found out, is totally weighted in favour of the players. There were reports that he called this club unmanageable or this group of players unmanageable shortly before he left. So there are a lot of problems to sort out there. I still think they haven't fixed the puzzle of how you get the best out of Mbappe and Vinicius and Bellingham and the incredible pressure that puts on the players behind them. So yeah, Arbeloa will probably pay for this with his job at the end of the season.
18:12Jonathan Liew:They will rage and they will fume and they'll end the season with no trophies. And there'll be another summer of refresh and probably a big tranche of fresh Galacticos. You talk about the quote from Alonso about them being unmanageable or the alleged quote. And one moment sticks out in my mind last night is when Real Madrid went 3-2 up and the camera pans to Arbeloa. and he's trying to get a message out and he just can't get it out there to the players because they're not listening. And you just see him kind of exasperated, turning away as if he's trying to tell the toddlers to tidy up their room.
18:47But no, we're just doing what we want. We don't care what you have to say. But it's so childish, right? It's so childish and it's like, and it will cost them. Like, I don't know at what point, and I know Real Madrid have won a lot of stuff, but for these players right now, we'll ever go, actually we might have we perhaps should have listened to a coach to have some tactics it's the first time in 16 years that they will have back-to-back trophy-less seasons I wonder if that that can help hammer it in but I do think as well what we've seen from Real Madrid is that if you take out the older heads who have the ability to control the tempo of the game a bit more in Kroos and Modric, then this is what you're left with.
19:36Those are the positions that I think they're really missing because as much as they did have their chances in both legs of this tie, it didn't feel like they could really wrestle back control of the game at their own whim, which is a skill you would expect Real Madrid to have. And I think that ultimately that's where it's costing them. And I'm intrigued to see what the next steps are in how they change that squad and who takes charge of it. Yeah, which actually does, because it's, you know, that midfield, Johnny, that Real Madrid haven't been able to fix. And I think it's interesting when you think PSG will quite easily beat Bayern, if I've understood it correctly.
20:19Because I do think that that Bayern midfield, I do think that when you put that, you know, Kimmich and Pavlovich and Lyme are coming into there. against that PSG midfield. I think that's really interesting. I just think that's fascinating. It is. And I think Bayern's midfield is, I don't think, as well built for controlling a big semi-final as Vitinha and Neves and whatever.
20:48Jonathan Liew:I just think PSG is so good at controlling the tempo and they almost sort of lull you into, like there'll be a couple of minutes of path and then suddenly boom boom boom boom boom it's gone to Kraros Galia it's gone to Dembele and they've they've somehow done a goal the ability to move through the gears and to know when to move through the gears and to be able to sense those moments which is obviously something that comes with with experience of big games and and and winning you know winning the Champions League and and knowing when those moments arrive I just I just think if I'd be fascinated to see what companies Bayern are doing in like in next season or the or the season after it's the same with Flix Barcelona, I think they just lack a bit of, they lack that little bit of maturity that gets you over the line.
21:30Jonathan Liew:Hey, I'm really happy to be proved wrong. I might be just totally wrong. I've been wrong about plenty in the past. We're going to be coming to our Premier League pre-season predictions, I'm sure, at some point in the next few weeks. So I've got plenty wrong, but that's how I see it. I just think PSG are a little bit smarter. And actually, Barry, we should, Johnny mentioned Vincent Kompany. Like, obviously, we wouldn't have said you failed upwards from Burnley to Bayern Munich. I can't ever remember saying that myself, but a lot of people did see that and go, how the hell has he managed to swing getting the Bayern job?
22:04And he is proving that he's been a good appointment.
22:09Max Rushden:Yeah, he's been an excellent appointment. It would be fair to say that the players he has at his disposal at Bayern Munich are a lot better than the ones he had at Burnley. I don't think that's a controversial opinion. Actually, he has been furious with you. He has been superb. The players clearly like and respect him. He's a real nice guy, quite calm, but that video circulating in the past of him on the Burnley training ground, I can't remember what player it was. Was it Joey Goodmanson, maybe? but absolutely tearing a strip off him for just moaning and complaining about everything in the training session.
22:59Max Rushden:So he has a temper. He's an authoritative figure, and he's done a great job. Interestingly, just out of curiosity, I had a look to see how the bookies have priced up the tournament now, and Bayern are the favourites, Arsenal are second favourites, then PSG. You could throw a blanket over them, and the bookies are giving Atletico Madrid no chance, really. They're rank outsiders to win the tournament. I just want to add with Kompany, Bayern Munich is not an easy club to be head coach at and Kompany has done well to quell a ravenous media scene there in the way that he is able to maintain the same image behind the scenes of being calm and making sure that they don't get too high and they don't get too low as well as in front of the media and I do think it's interesting that you mentioned Burnley because he actually brings it up a lot in his answers even now in terms of how much he learned through that experience and I think even even to Nick Ames's question in the press conference last night he was asked you know what what this emotion compares to and he brings up the feeling of beating Blackburn twice with Burnley which which seems seems a bit odd but I do think that he's constantly trying to to say that he did learn a lot from that experience even if it didn't work out very well for him and it's like Jake Humphrey bringing up his GCSEs.
24:37I do think that there's something. I do think that what happened when he moved from Burnley to Bayern is that he kind of got his, he got his playing career cancelled by everyone. It just kind of got ignored. And yet that is the thing, which I think is carrying him the furthest with these Bayern players is his knowledge and temperament of knowing how to navigate situations as a top player. and that's how he can really connect with all of these players. And you see reverence is maybe a bit too strong a word, but you do see the respect that they all have for him. And he seems sometimes the way that he interacts with the players, it seems less like a manager or we sometimes talk about them as father figures.
25:20He seems more just like that big brother to them who's able to sometimes put an arm around them and sometimes say, hey, come on, you can do better than this. It's like their fifth choice. He was. Which makes this whole thing even more bizarre. They wanted Rangnick. They wanted Ten Hag, I think. There was Glasner, I think, at one point as well. Alonso at the time. He was seen as a very left field pick. And yeah, he has provided all the answers. I dream of being fifth choice for a number of TV shows. Anyway, that'll do for part one. Part two, we'll discuss Arsenal nil, Sporting nil.
26:22Thank you.
Read the full transcript
26:35Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. Big news, Barry. On the 16th of July, we have our first ever live show in New York City. Following in the footsteps of Paul McCartney, Lou Reed and Lady Gaga, we take the stage at the world-famous Bowery Ballroom in NYC. Concrete jungles where dreams are made. Anyway, three days before the World Cup final. so it's me and you not sure who else but we'll have a panel don't you worry and you can get tickets presumably Zoran Mamdani will be there because he's a big fan you'd hope so yeah he can be on the panel theguardian.com slash football weekly live if you would like to come let's sell out New York City New York yeah of course and I think that's how they'll like us to begin putting on New York accents going you're talking on me
27:27Max Rushden:you're talking to me anyway this is the first i've heard of this show yeah so um yeah well it would have been nice to be consulted i would like to say that i am available and i'm already very excited yeah uh we are looking forward to it i mean i didn't know until i looked at the script and it had a link and i was like oh okay and i checked the link and it seems to be working so there you go come along it'll be nice to see you new yorkers uh we've got to stop this uh you're doing a lot to put off talking about Arsenal. Okay, I am. Well, do you know what, Archer? You mentioned in part one, suffering as a unit.
28:03And boy, did we all suffer as a unit. Should we focus on the part? I mean, the positives are, right? They are through to the semifinals of the Champions League. They're still top of the Premier League. They're through to the semifinal of the Champions League. They defended well. They are good without the ball. Eight clean-cheeked in the Champions League.
28:16Max Rushden:Well, if I may, Max. Please, Barry. They're such a strange team. Like, they're top of the league. They're in the semifinals of the Champions League. But all we and others seem to spend our time talking about, with no little justification, is how terrible they are. And it's just mad. Watching them is an ordeal for everyone, especially their own fans. But again, top of the league in the semifinals of the Champions League. And I just can't get my head around Arsenal at all. I hate watching them. They don't entertain me in the slightest. And if you say that out loud, you get pelters. But that is my opinion.
29:02Max Rushden:If I sit down and watch an Arsenal game, I don't do with anything approaching relish. And I cannot remember the last time an Arsenal performance got me out of my seat or anywhere near the edge of my seat. I was thinking for the Arsenal fans, I mean, it feels, it's just so much anxiety that it is really like waiting for a loved one to come out of surgery. And the only good bit is at the end when the doctor says it was a success. And you can go, oh, thank God for that. But Barney wrote, it can feel like trying to win by default, to win by drowning slightly more slowly than the other guy. No one has ever advanced on so many fronts playing quite like this.
29:42What are your thoughts, Johnny?
29:44Jonathan Liew:I think it's all very fair, to be honest. I think there's an assumption that sporting were just there for, you know, they were patsies, they were just there to be put away. obviously if Arsenal had scored an early goal and made that tie safe early on and maybe scored three or four that it would have changed not just the you know the feeling around it but the narrative over the next few days going into that City game but sporting as we saw are not a bad side it's not plenty of teams have tried to shut them down in the Champions League this season and and not many have succeeded and this is this is Arsenal's I guess their their underrated strength right is they are able to shut down teams.
30:23Jonathan Liew:They are able to extinguish teams to the point where your only real option against them is to low block and try and frustrate them. And, you know, we were talking about earlier about how styles make fights. This was, you know, ultimately a very asymmetric tie, which was always going to end up like this. I fear Arsenal and Atletico might be the same, although Atletico obviously have a lot more to them going forward. There are two separate issues here. Everyone talks about, the angst and the suffering and the fans tearing their hair out and the narrative creeping in, the narratives creeping in about how they're terrible leaders and they're playing terrible football.
31:02Jonathan Liew:That is almost separate to what is clearly going on in that team, which is there is such a lack of creative spark. There is long balls to Giocares, who is not really a target man, which I think betrays a lack of ideas. And there are no star players that are coming forward. You know, title winning teams have star players who stand up and say, I'm just going to bang one in from 20 yards now. I'm going to do something extraordinary. This is a team that doesn't have that, doesn't have those sort of players or those players aren't coming forward right now and almost have to grind out games. They have to play almost this negative, what is it Barney called it, star-ma-ball.
31:42Jonathan Liew:Because it's early this season at Liverpool, you know, and he's dead right. It is star-ma-ball at the moment. It is the only real alternative available to them. And Arteta is basically working with what he has. A knackered squad, by the way. They look utterly, they physically shagged out. And I think that's having a big impact on it. But they're top of the league and they're in the Champions League. I'd have them as favourites just because I think Atletico are probably the weakest of the four teams left. And they still have the potential to make everyone look really, really stupid. And I think that should be what fires them up.
32:21I'd back Atletico over Arsenal right now, particularly because of the brand of chaos that Atletico can initiate and embrace is something that I think Arsenal would not face with any real relish. I'd also just add, I've been monitoring Arsenal's corner success rate of late. God, you're really living Archie, aren't you? Right? Well, I tell you what, Max, this is what having to go to Southampton for two nights and realising, I've probably got the time to look this up. Let's have a look. They'd scored 21 goals from corners in their first 37 games this season. In their last 17 games, they've scored two from corners and they were both in the same game against Chelsea.
33:11So they have really lost that weapon and that's two goals of their last 28 have been from corners compared to 21 of 80. So I think that them losing their mojo from corners as well I think has affected them because it's putting that extra reliance on their open play performance and they can't deal with that right now because they don't have Odegaard and Saka in top form. In fact, I mean, where is Bukayo Saka? we don't know what the injury status is on him. Is that going to be a World Cup issue? Question mark. Who knows? I suppose the question is, because Sporting didn't score against the Barry, but Sporting had chances in this game.
33:56Max Rushden:Sporting should have had a penalty, by the way. It was another one of those not enough fouls where Musquero pushed Maxi Rahu in the back at the far post as he was trying to get to a cross. That should have been a penalty. and I don't know why it wasn't given. Yeah, my only thought about that one was the ball was quite a long way away. I know it doesn't matter, but that seems to matter. But my question is, Sporting had some chances, right? So I agree with Johnny that Sporting is actually a really good team and I don't know how big a step up Athlete is. I think it is a step up, but I don't think there's a chasm between Athlete and Sporting.
34:35But if you keep playing like this, you will eventually come up against a team that will create chances, however good you are defensively, right? And that is, purely in the Champions League, that will be Arsenal's problem, I think.
34:48Max Rushden:Well, I suspect it will be a problem for them closer to home on Sunday afternoon. And we'll see how that goes. But look, there's no doubt in my mind that Arsenal are good enough to win the Champions League, but we haven't seen anywhere near the best of them in at least five matches. And I think they've only won one of those five. And as Johnny points out, they are clearly knackered. I think Declan Rice had to climb out of his sickbed to play last night. So we'll see how kind of effect that has on him at the weekend. But he looked mightily not happy after the game, just relieved, just glad it was over, probably like everyone else who was watching it.
35:34Here's an email from Basil who says, There's much commentary on the excellent pod in recent weeks about how much people are reveling in Arsenal's late season claps. Based on anecdotal evidence, this sentiment is so widespread that it has to be considered a genuine cultural phenomenon. I don't know why I don't like Arsenal, and I want whichever team they're playing to beat them. It goes back decades, but particularly now it seems so ubiquitous. I'm curious why a seemingly large percentage of other football fans are willing them to fail. Can I suggest a podcast episode dedicating to addressing the question and what the phenomenon tells us about the contemporary game.
36:07Could you do that now, Johnny?
36:09Jonathan Liew:Yeah, I mean, Arsenal are trollable. Arsenal are extremely trollable. That's always been their Achilles heel. There are so many people that are really emotionally invested in them tripping up. You actually see it like the last few days, last week, as they got asked before the game, what do you think about people who don't think Arsenal's style is great, who think they're not very good? Arteta, I think, slightly pointed answer last night about how the coverage that they've been getting is, you would expect them to be a team in the bottom three. That is beginning to creep through the windows, all of that external noise.
36:41Jonathan Liew:You can get a rise out of Arsenal. You know, this is probably going to get clipped up and put in a vertical video site somewhere because Arsenal fans are just, they will reliably rage at anything. You'll get like 3 ,000 comments going like, who is this journo? Who is this Arsenal-hating journo? I mean, you see the Arsenal scarf in the background. That's my wife's Arsenal scarf. I live around the corner from the Emirates. So, you know, you can't tell me anything about Arsenal. I don't really know. There is a really seething pot of... That's to say, is it significantly more for them than, you know, any team is trollable, right?
37:22A lot of Arsenal fans seem to care what other people
37:28Max Rushden:who don't support Arsenal think of Arsenal far more than, say, I care about what anyone thinks about Sunderland or you care about what anyone thinks of Cambridge or Spurs. I don't understand why they care what I think or Johnny thinks or Archie thinks about Arsenal. You know, why would you?
37:49Jonathan Liew:Arsenal and Liverpool, I think, are the two fan bases that really coagulated at a time when social media, online when at times social media was becoming huge, was becoming almost the dominant way of consuming the game. It was Liverpool, a lot of that, the energy that went into getting out Hicks and Gillette and Arsenal under the late Wenger years, that coincided with the rise of the internet and social media. And I think that created an incredibly online, incredibly plugged in fan base and also a target, a target for other fan bases to attack and troll. Sure, but there's always a danger that, you know, because although you may live next to the Emirates, I don't.
38:29You know, there's always a danger that four people on a Zoom call commenting on this are reacting so much to social media. And although social media is now part of real life, you almost can't separate them, I guess. But like, you've always got to be aware that there might be lots of arsempaths going to the game who don't sit on Instagram all day calling you a bell whiff or a snowflake.
38:53sorry you wanted to you wanted to come in i mean that is one thing about comments is i discover insults that i didn't know were insults i've had them all i think there's also something quite simple at play here which is i think that you don't want your mates teams to win and because you know that they'll go on about it and i think that most people don't know as many City fans as they know Arsenal fans I think that that can have a role in it in in terms of what's your immediate environment and oh I cannot I cannot hear I cannot deal with them going on about how good they are blah blah blah and I think still there is something about the the character of a fan base and how they behave from from what Johnny's saying I think that still plays into it But I still think that also immediate environment and just the simple, I just want peace.
39:47And I know that if Arsenal win, then I am not going to have my peace. And I can't deal with that. I mean, I suppose, and I've said this before, but I think a lot with the Premier League is, you know, because Arsenal would be a new winner of the Premier League for so many years compared to City and City have those charges. And yet we're just used to City winning. So it's just not as a neutral, even though, you know, I'm a Spurs fan, but I don't hate Arsenal. that's not that's not it but it is objectively funny if they come second again I think you know especially especially the way that it is the season is panning out anyway anyway tonight in the Europa League Villa Bologna Villa are 3-1 up on that forest Porto is poised at one apiece and then the Conference League Palace go to Fiorentina they are 3-0 up that'll do for part two part three we'll do a Premier League preview
40:56Thank you.
41:08Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. All right, let's do a Premier League preview. We should start talking about Arsenal again, but they go to the Etihad. I mean, it's a huge game. If Man City win, then the title race is completely wide open. I think if Arsenal manage to get a point, they should feel very confident. How do you see it, Johnny?
41:27Jonathan Liew:The funny thing is, if you go back through the last few years of this fixture, there have been quite a few draws, but there have been very few what you call genuinely close games or kind of even games. There was the draw earlier this season where Arsenal were totally dominant and Martinelli equalised late on. You had the 5-1 last season, the 2-2, the Etihad last season where John Stones equalised and it was an absolute rearguard after Arsenal went down to 10 men. And so it's actually quite rare in the, and obviously the Carabao Cup final, which was a wipeout. So it's rare that we've seen these two teams properly going at each other, at their peak, properly going at each other, in the way that you would associate with the City-Liverpool games, the great Guardiola-Clopp era.
42:17Jonathan Liew:And I don't think we're going to see that on Sunday either. I think we're going to see an Arsenal team trying to cling on and a City team who are essentially going to try and break them down, who are going to try and essentially get enough dangerous balls in enough dangerous areas. It might be one of those where Arsenal finally have some space to play in. They might find that kind of liberating, but I don't really associate Arsenal with the word liberating at the moment. So obviously they would love a draw. I think their best chance of getting a draw is not playing for a draw. Right. I wonder if you look, Archie, at the way that Semenya is playing and Doku is playing and certainly Arsenal having an issue at right back.
43:04That's if I was an Arsenal fan, I'd be sort of nervous. I'd be nervous there. I'd be nervous, you know, which is what they are. despite the fact that Pep Guardiola found the exact game plan to combat Arsenal in the in the Carabao Cup final I do think that the biggest obstacle to City here could be Pep and all he needs to do is do exactly what they've been doing of late but in that inner monologue I'd love to hear what the conversation is of but maybe maybe if you did this maybe if you didn't do that I reckon that actually he's probably having a terrible week for just all the conversations in his head about, well, but what if I didn't press them like the Carabao Cup final?
43:52What if we did an extra special plan? And the thing is, it's like, Pep, if you do exactly what you've been doing recently, I don't think that Arsenal will be able to cope. And even if Arsenal were to score, I just think that City have too much for them right now. It's difficult to envision a scenario where Arsenal are able to raise their level of performance to the necessary point. But this is the joy of football, is that we don't know that 100%. And could it come from nowhere? But it doesn't look that way right now.
44:31Max Rushden:On the CBS show last night, Thierry Henry was very, very animated about this game, saying that Mikel Arteta has been talking about the fire in his players, that we didn't see it last night against Sporting, and he wants to see it at the Etihad, and they need to go and win. Draw, not good enough. They have to go and win. well I think a draw would be an unbelievable result for Arsenal um in the relegation fight so this is how it works chronologically Leeds beat Wolves at three o 'clock Spurs lose to Brighton at 5 30 Forrest beat Burnley on Sunday and then West Ham win at Palace on Monday
45:15Johnny um I mean yeah like I've heard people saying look Mark Landon said it yesterday all All Spurs need is just the one win and then it'll be fine. But you're like, but that is not an easy thing for them at the moment, Johnny.
45:30Jonathan Liew:I think that the point where one win would have been fine for them was about three weeks ago. If they'd beaten Forest, I think that would have been fine. Deserby is, you know, there's been a lot of Deserby discourse. And, you know, if we park all of that to one side for a moment, I think as a coach and as a coaching personality, he is a strong enough personality to be able to change the mood of the place in a way that Tudor probably wasn't, in a way that Thomas Frank certainly wouldn't have been able to. And I think that's all they're kind of relying on now because the patterns of play, the lack of imagination in possession, the lack of options, the lack of guile in midfield, all of that is kind of set in stone now.
46:12Jonathan Liew:They're now without Romero, they have what they have. De Zerbi is not going to be able to work tactical miracles in the next six or seven games is it seven is it seven games six six games yeah right six oh jesus um uh all you could do is just is just send you know hit and hope you know send them out there with the right messages and with you know with a sense of their own of the standards that are required that's all that's all they've got really
46:44Max Rushden:he even said it himself last week he said I'm not here to coach this team I'm here to be a big brother and a father figure and sort their heads out it's almost like they should have appointed a psychologist or a psychiatrist rather than a football coach I think you made a really good point Barry which is other teams are really invested in relegating them you know like Brighton are really good Brighton do have patterns of play they're a really good football team but you know especially with the Deserby factor they will be absolutely bang up for going and winning there. Yeah, and they're on a run of five Premier League wins out of six.
47:18Max Rushden:They've scored 14 goals in their last five games against Spurs. It's obviously, as you say, the deserving derby. But I do believe that other teams want to send Spurs down in a way they don't really care about Leeds or West Ham or Burnley or whoever else goes with them.
47:41Jonathan Liew:Well, that will score.
47:42Max Rushden:Oh, yeah. Yeah, and so will Gross. And so will, you know, Matt's Viffer. A Dinger will get a couple. Minter will get three. Is A Dinger still playing it? I don't know. No, he's been to his second club since leaving.
47:59Jonathan Liew:Glenn Murray. Bobby Zamora. Sarmiento.
48:05Max Rushden:Everyone except Gordon Smith. And Smith must score. Oh, no. but I mean those fixtures for Leeds and Forest you know they couldn't be nicer home to Wolves and Burnley so if they both win well then Leeds are probably safe aren't they Forest are on 33 points if they win that takes them to 36 so then it will all be on Palace at home to West Ham you know and Palace Palace famously don't do very well after playing in Europe no that's true they've only won three games out of 12 oh thanks Barry they won last weekend yeah that's true Chelsea Man United is on Saturday 8 o 'clock in those Champions League fixtures the FA handed Harry Maguire an extra one match ban a£30 ,000 fine the official report states that after being sent off against Bournemouth last month Maguire approached the fourth official and shouted you're a joke you're all a fucking joke let's hope let's hope they haven't heard the Real Madrid chats from yesterday that's how Max actually starts the pod guys Yes, people don't know that.
49:11Everton-Liverpool. I mean, we probably should have got to it sooner, Baz. This is a huge Merseyside derby, isn't it? Because what? Everton are 47 points. They're five points behind Liverpool. They could still finish above them.
49:23Max Rushden:Yeah, they could. Everton don't win many Merseyside derbies these days. I think just five of the last 52, but they draw a lot of them. They're a very resilient side. They're much, much better than I thought they would be this season. David Moyes is a contender for manager of the year. He probably won't get it, obviously, but he's certainly in the conversation. I would not be surprised if Everton come away with this from something. They probably need a win if they have serious notions of qualifying for the Champions League. And, yeah, who's to say they won't win? This is Liverpool's first trip to Hill Dickinson Stadium as well, so it'll be interesting.
50:06Max Rushden:I'm looking forward to. Villa, Sunderland, Fulham, go to Brentford. Do you want a Fulham minute, Archie? This is a derby as well, please. This is a derby which both teams care about. And I mean, we sing about Harry Wilson, given that he has had a run on Brentford in a quite spectacular manner, scoring against him in the last three games. He's done it again. He's done it again. Harry Wilson, he's done it again. And they like to taunt us with Jota. Well, in the past about Jota scoring in the final minute. They've sung about Diego Forlan with Atletico Madrid. Annoyingly, they had a really catchy song, which was Bees Up, Fulham Down.
50:56Certainly better than He's Done It Again, He's Done It Again. Barry, don't... you could really get into bees at mother brown couldn't you you can really get into it i know right that's the problem i bet i bet as a fulham fan you're sort of humming along going i can't sing it but you know if knees up brother brown starts anywhere you can't help yourself it's really difficult but yeah we call them a bus stop in houndslow they berate us for being posh and they look even though there's only three points between us in the table they look much better right now don't think marco silver is going to stay although i look down the table I think you could have nine different managers in the top 14 teams at the start of next season.
51:36Just if everything plays, like if Arsenal don't win the league, could Arteta go? Guardiola, could he be off? Like, I think the amount of managerial overhaul in the summer could be massive in the Premier League. Yes, they'll actually need a merry-go-round, won't they? It'll be fun. Yes. One in on Sky Sports News. At Newcastle Bournemouth, there are reports that the Saudis are pulling out of live golf. They've denied it. But I guess some Newcastle fans might be slightly wary that, you know, they've got a new five-year plan. Apparently, PIF streamlining things. So it'll be interesting to see what happens.
52:12Regards, Newcastle United with that. Reg says, obviously, Northampton's relegation is the main story from last night. How do you think the Cobblers will cope in League Two? Yeah, two games in League One last night. Luton won 2-1 at Northampton so Northampton will be relegated at the end of the season a huge game in League 2 tonight 8pm kick off on Sky Sports Bromley vs Cambridge United 1st v 3rd absolutely enormous I'm terrified we have a goalkeeper on an emergency 7 day loan from Preston and whenever you get anyone from any other club you just get replies from their fans going I'm really sorry you've got this player so anyway we'll see how that's going up the use.
52:55And Coventry could be promoted if they get a pint at Blackburn on Friday night. So we're going to do a big EFL pod on Tuesday. I will finish with this email from Jack. A very excited hammer. Blimey, we haven't had many of them. Hello, my brother-in-law Dan and his hero wife Lucy have just welcomed their daughter Wanda into the world. Dan and I have bonded endlessly over Football Weekly over the years, attending three live shows together in various states of disarray. He was kind enough to get me a lovely, bracket cynical Barry shout out when I married his sister a few years ago. If Barry or any fellow panellist had any words of life wisdom for Dan, Lucy and New Arrival Wanda, who will most likely live the ups and downs of a Fulham supporter, it would be lovely to hear them.
53:34Well, I mean, I could either go to Archie on the ups and downs of a Fulham supporter or Barry to just say, you know, your life is over. Now you have a child. It's hard to know where to go. But with all due respect, Archie. Well, I mean,
53:48Max Rushden:you're the one that complains relentlessly about the vicissitudes of parenthood i don't have any children so uh i i don't have any particular wisdom to part i would recommend that uh neither dan lucy or wanda run a half marathon any distance over four miles i think it's frowned upon if you enter your nought-year-old into a half marathon. I did see a guy on Sunday pushing his child, well, presumably it was his child, in a pram. Oh, right. Or a go-kart, buggy, whatever you called him. Go-kart's fun, isn't it? Yeah, around the course. Wow. And that child did it in quicker time than I did. Fair enough.
54:40Then it started Strava to impress its mates at Kinder. Who knows? Anyway, look, good luck, Dan and Lucy. May you have a wonderful time. The days are long and the weeks are also long. But that'll do it for today. Thanks, everybody. Thank you, Johnny. Thanks. Thanks, Archie. Can I just quickly mention what Fortuna Dusseldorf did? Oh, yes. What's that? Because Fortuna Dusseldorf sacked their coach, Marcus Anfang, which means beginning in German. and they replaced him with Alexander Ender, which means end. So it was the end for the beginning, but the beginning for the end. It's really lovely. And actually, Archie, sorry, on that, we should have mentioned Union Berlin appointing the first female manager in the Bundesliga.
55:32Can you do a minute on that for us? Marie-Louise Etter is stepping up to be head coach for the final five games of the season. she was due to be coaching the union women's team from the start of next season uh it's not been ruled out that she doesn't take this job for longer there have been predictable sexist comments which have been aimed in the comment sections not really seen it in the media albeit in the media one or two people saying well how will this experiment go and you think well you wouldn't describe it like that if this was a man taking over. But she has all the relevant experience.
56:18It shouldn't really be a talking point. Just really hope that it goes well for her. She's been an assistant coach at the club already a few years ago. She's been coaching the under-19s this season. And this weekend, home game against Wolfsburg, who are well en route to relegation. they lost again last weekend. Union still have one or two issues, which is why they've sacked their coach, Stefan Baumgart. So yeah, I should add that to talk of progression in Germany feels difficult this week, given that the German women's national team, one of their games is not being shown on free-to-air TV. It's on live stream.
57:01So to talk about there being that much progression of women's rights in football, it seems a bit far-fetched still but it's a nice step. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Archie. Cheers. Thank you everyone again. Thank you, Barry. Yes, thanks. We'll go to New York. New York City, yes. Oh, for goodness sake. Football Weekly is produced by Silas Gray and our executive producer is Ian Chambers. We'll be back on Monday.
57:41Go to New York! This is The Guardian.