Comfortable win for England; chaotic comeback for Scotland – Football Weekly

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0:30in the Jude Bellingham role. Elliot Anderson and Declan Rice looking impressive in midfield. England won without Harry Kane. Oli Watkins scored and Bukayo Saka hit one perfectly. Jed Spence and Anthony Gordon linked up well on the left. And Jordan Pickford had nothing to do and then made two good saves when he was given something to do. Conclusion, it's coming home. A huge win for Scotland at home to Greece. Not a brilliant performance, not a good performance. Greece should have been a header in the first half and deservedly were in the second before Steve Clarke's men went and scored three. Also, there's Austria's biggest ever win and the Faroes scoring four.

0:57We'll discuss FIFA, UEFA and Israel's potential ban amid the early stages of the ceasefire. There's Ancelotti at Brazil, Cole Palmer building submarines and a queue of people in Perth ready to get my AirPods from Terminal 4. All that plus your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

1:16On the panel today, Barry Glendening. Hello. Hi, Max. Bonjour, ça va, Philippe Auclair. Ça va très bien. Merci, Max. Ah, merci de rien. And hello, Johnny Lou. Hello. let's start then at Wembley England 3 Wales 0 Matty says has Barry booked flights from New York to the furthest possible country from England yet hashtag it's coming home Rich is Ellis James okay well Ellis and John were playing the Swansea Building Society arena last night so no voice note England were good Johnny you know following that excellent performance in Serbia it felt very positive yeah and I think you know it's nice to remember at times that England are allowed to be good that I think the prevailing noise around this team is so often so negative and just quite bitter in a way that it's possible just to say that was a good performance.

2:06They played well. All the pieces seem to fit together. What I really like is the mobility. I know this is a team without Kane. Watkins, so much movement, so much good work, intelligent running up front. You have Rodgers, I thought Elliot Anderson was incredible in the base midfield he i think has given to kind of real problem in that position now yeah spence was good anthony gordon so much energy and and even though it's sort of the intensity like understandably ticked down a little bit in the second half i thought the the defensive desire and hunger to chase back that was really encouraging i think that's that that's exactly the sort of thing that that tuchel's going to want to see that even though it's a friendly even though you know the stadium is emptying that they're still you know tracking back and making fouls and trying to trying to stop counter-attacks um so yeah it is good like Wales were pretty awful I mean this is they played like a league one team basically this is a squad that's full of either Premier League or you know established championship players in the most part and they would just die for half an hour at least why is it a problem that Elliot Anderson's been good because that is a that's a problem position that he seems to you know have just slotted in and I see Morgan Rodgers has given Tuchel a problem because there's Jude Bellingham sitting there and that's tricky.

3:24But for Anderson, I can only see positives. Yeah, no, no. I think he's potentially nailed down that slot. The midfield is going to be a big puzzle going forward because there's a huge amount of talent to fit in and you're going to want different players for different games, for different sorts of games. You have Kobe Maynou, you have Adam Warton, you have Rice in a slightly more advanced role. But I think Rice and Anderson is becoming that established too. No, you're right. It's a nice headache. It's a nice dilemma, as they say. Yeah, yeah. Barry, what did you make of it all? I mean, it is interesting because of the people that weren't there, as well as the people that were on the pitch.

4:02Yeah, this was an England team with no Bellingham, no Foden, no Wharton, no Grealish, no Rhys James, no Harry Kane, no Cole Palmer, no Trent Alexander-Arnold, and maybe to a lesser extent, no Nani Madueke, no Tino Livramento. They're all big names, good players. In some cases, extremely good players. And England played, I thought, exceptionally well. And Thomas Tuchel, in the build-up to the game, said that he's trying to build a team. It's not about collecting individuals. And I'd say, unless he's had a word with Jude Bellingham and Foden and the Grealish, that they're probably fairly worried about their position in the squad going to the World Cup.

4:55Will there be one for them? Will there be positions for them on the plane? I think they have every right to be worried because Tuchel doesn't pander to egos. Tuchel is there specifically to do a job, manage England to the World Cup, try and win it, and then he'll be gone. So if, for example, he elected to leave Jude Bellingham out of the squad, he would probably get pelters from certain quarters. He already got pelters from certain quarters for leaving Bellingham out of this squad. but say he does and England go to the World Cup and win it, great if they go and don't win it which is more likely he won't care about any abuse he gets because he'll be gone he won't be in charge anymore so I do think those players have every right to be concerned but we should probably dwell more on the players who were there I don't think anyone in England's shirt put a foot wrong last night Jordan Pickford had a very quiet night but he did whatever was asked of him heard someone saying he hasn't conceded a goal for England in a year Anderson was great Anthony Gordon was great Ollie Watkins scored got his opportunity and scored a goal Morgan Rogers was great if I was an England fan I'd be more concerned about the omission of Adam Wharton than any of the other big name players who weren't there last I just think he is absolutely terrific.

6:23But Tuchel doesn't seem to fancy him, as is his right. Sure. I mean, I suppose Elliot Anderson is playing so well that makes that less of an issue. What impressed you most, Philippe? The movement to start with, because we can say and repeat that Wales were actually not very good. But they were not very good because England made them look terrible. And there was more intensity from that England team. I mean, England has always a problem starting its games. Remember, even against Serbia, it only clicked a little bit later. And this time it was front foot and in a friendly from the very first second.

7:00I love the interplay between Gordon and Spence. I mean, Spence had a wonderful game. I agree. It was absolutely superb. He's finding relationships. That's one of the hardest things to do. So you've got the relationship on the left. You're going to have the relationship on the right as well, with Bukayo Saka being back as well. You've got a real spine in the team now. He's fun. I mean, Mark Gay, we should also make a lot of him for what he brings. And, I mean, it's pure class. He's got now with Gay and Stones, probably in terms of distributors of the ball, the best centre-back partnership you can find in English football.

7:42So you look at all these things. But more than anything, it was the willingness to run and the intelligence of the runs. It was constant. The Welsh didn't know where to look. There was constantly one player darting here, darting there. And they were not random runs. They obviously had been worked out. And they managed to sustain that for a whole half before, you know, the inevitable happened. You know, you put your foot off the gas. You're thinking about the next game, which is a more important game in many ways. you're thinking about your club and so forth and you start you know changing a few players here and there but i was i was mightily impressed and uh i i have to say that i i will join the the chorus of praise for uh for elliot anderson uh problem solved it's it's remarkable that that player is absolutely superb we forgot to mention i think cole palmer about the absentees which i think is a bigger problem than some of the others i don't think jude bellingham at the moment is a problem the way that Morgan Rogers is playing in this England team, he really doesn't deserve to have his place taken by a player who's just come back from surgery anyway and who hasn't always produced the goods, contrary to what some people may think in an England shirt.

8:53He scored some very important, spectacular goals, but I don't think he's been quite the influence on England that some people say he had. Yeah, I don't disagree with that. Or he tries to do too much, perhaps. And yet, Johnny, you can just see as we get closer to the world Like Barry says, you know, maybe Tuchel won't care, but it'd be brave. It'd be brave to start, you know, this team that started or a variant of this one and leave out that many players. I don't see any roots to England winning the World Cup without Drew Bellingham. I don't think he was very good last summer at the Euro. He was downright bad for a lot of that tournament.

9:31He still won them two games pretty much on his own. They don't beat Serbia without him. They don't beat Slovakia without him. Sure, but sorry to play devil's advocate, but if somebody had been there playing well, they wouldn't have needed to score an overhead kick, I suppose is the point. No, totally. That's not just about his bicycle kick. He was best player on the pitch for half a game against Serbia. And the reason they drop off in that first game is not his fault. I think you cannot win an international tournament, even if you're peak Spain. You don't win an international tournament without being able to win games in lots and lots of different ways.

10:06Some games you're going to have to steamroll the opposition. Some games you're going to have to be a little bit lucky because the margins are going to be so tight. And I think you need players like Bellingham and Palmer as well for some of those situations and not necessarily all of them. I think there is a case that, you know, you bring him on for the last half hour in games that are tight. And same with Palmer. What Tuchel, I think, has shown so far in his selections is that he prioritises players who can follow a plan. Morgan Rodgers can follow a plan. Rakaio Saka, he loves Eze for this reason, because Eze can follow a plan.

10:42And who will go pretty much where he tells them. And so I think that's going to be the basis of his team going forward. but you still, I think, also need players who can deviate from a plan because international tournaments are won on luck and brilliance as much as they are on systems and processes. I think there's one difference for Bellingham. Cole Palmer, Jack Quillish, regardless of their talent, are players that you can sub in. Bellingham is a starter. That's a huge difference because in the group, he doesn't have the same status. He doesn't have the same status in terms of image. he doesn't have the same status in terms of the way he presents himself and what he expects to get and I think that a Jude Bellingham who would stay on the subs bench would not necessarily be very good for the England dressing room if you see what I mean I think he's one of those players yes you can try and build a team around an exceptional talent like he is but I don't think you can leave him on the bench and just ask him to switch it on when he comes on You know, like, Greenish can do that and Karl Palmer can do that.

11:46No problem. I think it's a completely different problem. And it's going to turn into one of those sagas, my dear Max. We're starting now. We've got quite a few months to go, but there will be columns, many columns, many debates, many people putting their, you know, putting their opinions across in a very, very strong way. And it's going to become, yes, I wouldn't call it the Dreyfus affair of English football because Dreyfus ended up in a penitentiary in Guyana which is not exactly the same thing it was a tragedy this is not a tragedy this is actually quite funny but it's going to turn into a soap opera there's no doubt about that It's quite interesting Barry I don't know how good or not Bellingham is in a dressing room I take Philippe's point that there are players that expect to start it sort of reflects a bit on what Steven Gerrard was saying about the golden generation not all clicking, there not being a great vibe.

12:43And Tuchel needs to build that, doesn't he? If he's going to start players who are, inverted commas, lesser or seen as sort of not as high profile, he needs to somehow build a vibe where he can then rely on somebody who is a superstar to come off the bench. Yeah, I have no idea, like you, what kind of presence Bellingham is around the camp. If a Bellingham who feels he should be starting isn't starting is going to sulk and blude and create disharmony. I just don't know. There seems to be a suggestion that his dad is a very difficult man to have around and can be a malign influence on dressing rooms.

13:27I read somewhere recently that Job, who left Sunderland during the summer to go to Borussia Dortmund, is considering his options now because he feels he's not getting enough game time with Dortmund. Is that him or is that his dad? I don't know. But there seems to be a suggestion that Bellingham Senior can be quite difficult if he feels his sons aren't getting the treatment they deserve or the respect they deserve. But I would say if Tuchel was in any doubt, he wouldn't think twice about leaving him out. Johnny disagrees. Johnny thinks he is needed. I'm not so sure. Whoever England take to the World Cup, lots of incredibly good players are going to be left behind.

14:20Players will get injured in the next few months and they'll miss out probably. So opportunities will present themselves. but it is very nice. I wish Ireland had this kind of problem. Of course. Philippe? Yes, I just want to draw a parallel. The idea of leaving out a player who is considered to be maybe even the best of his age group and of this particular generation, some teams have done it with great success. And one team that I'm particularly fond of, which is my French team, the French team started its 1998 World Cup campaign by leaving out Eric Cantona and David Ginola who were supposed to be the two best French attacking players of that generation.

15:07I'm not joking. And of course there was Zidane and there was Jorcaef but Dugary and Kivarch went to the World Cup to the Euro 1996 and to the World Cup in 1998. It's part of the same trajectory. Eric Cantona and David Ginola were cut out from the group by Amé Jacquet. That was one of his first decisions as a manager. It worked. It worked. It's mad when you think about it. It undeniably did work because they won the tournament. But I remember Stéphane Guy-Varge in that tournament. Oh, bless him. He was very much a passenger on that team. Ten-man France won that World Cup. But Bellingham isn't Cantona or Ginnola in this scenario.

15:51I think we're being slightly harsh on him, to be honest. Yeah, no, no, maybe you're right. He's Zidane in this scenario. Zidane, who didn't do a lot at Euro 96, got sent off in the early stages of the World Cup in 98. And there's this big national, you know, is Zidane ever going to turn up for us? And he does. He does eventually, you know, plot twist, he does turn up for them. uh you know he's the guy that does you know i think i think he does need a certain license and i think you know it is it is hard to say that he's basically what we're saying he's too much of a dick to be to sit to sit on the on the bench which i i think i don't see you know you i don't see a huge amount of evidence for that he's i think it's a judgment call that people make based on little snippets that that you hear about him or you see about him that i think on like like Like Barry says, we don't have the full picture.

16:43I think there is an ego there, but I don't also see it at any of his previous clubs. There's not been any evidence that he hasn't been willing to submit himself for the team. I think his natural game is sort of roaming. It might not, you know, tactically, it might be hard for a coach to integrate him into his tactical plan, but I don't see a huge amount of evidence that he's going to be like a problem child in that respect. I need to intervene because you're calling me out, Johnny Lou. When I talk about Cantona and Ginola, I'm talking about the media impact of their non-selection. That's what I was talking about.

17:17I wasn't comparing the style of the players. It's that there was a Cantona camp and a no Cantona camp. The rest of it. But Cantona kicked a fan. Cantona, he leapt into the crowd and kicked a fan. And that's part of the reason. Yeah, but he came back. He came back and he had his best ever season for Manchester United, at which point the clamour for his inclusion in the French national team was absolutely deafening. And the same when, remember, David Ginola became the double player of the year in England, quite controversially, I must say, but at the time where he was no longer playing for France.

17:49But that was my point. It was about the media attention. And the second thing, when the idea that it's because he would be a kind of sulky character, it's not exactly what I have in mind. It's what I have in mind that England cannot play with Jude Bellingham as England plays with Jude Bellingham, if you see what I mean. If he's in the team, you've got to accommodate the team to an absolutely exceptional talent. Nobody's doubting that. So you would need quite a change, I think, in the way England is set up if you've got Bellingham or if you haven't got Bellingham. That's my concern on this point.

18:22This is quite different from saying he's a bit of a dig. That's not the point. Even though if you talk to his ex-Borice Dortmund teammates, he wasn't the best love character in the dressing room. But on the other hand, he was by head and shoulders above any other player and he made the success of Morrison Dortmund. So there you go. And that's on Tuchel. I mean, this is what Tuchel is doing, right? He is trying to accommodate, you know, he might be suspended, he might be injured next summer. You know, for whatever reason, he might not have Bellingham available and he is trying to build solutions that work without him.

18:52So I think that's a test of coaching as much as anything. yeah to move on from from bellingham because there's a lot of projection he might be a total delight you know and come on and play 20 minutes ago this is my dream and win us the world cup we don't and he's an exceptional talent but it was interesting that barry that philippe mentioned the amount of running that ollie watkins did and obviously harry kane is having the season of his life but it is sort of similar you have to play slightly differently i guess if you have a center forward like kane who is brilliant and scores lots of goals or if you have someone who runs and runs and runs and runs and runs?

19:23Oh, absolutely. I mean, the goals were very soft. You have to factor in, Wales were terrible. Yeah, no. Like, really bad. And it's probably good they got that hunkering performance out of their system before their big game against Belgium on Monday. Watkins scored a goal. It was well taken, but he was unmarked on the line. He also missed an extremely good chance when he clattered his shin off the post. I thought he might have done himself a serious mischief there, but he got away with it. Wales should not have allowed Saka to score that Saka goal. They were three soft goals, but they did score them.

20:05They could have scored more. They probably should have scored five or six. But there's no doubt in my mind, Harry Kane is their standout striker, and if anything were to happen to him, it would be a huge source of concern. Johnny, what did you make of Thomas Tuchel calling out the crowd? He said, the stadium was silent. We didn't get any energy back from the stands. We did everything to win. If you hear just Wales fans for an hour, it's sad because the team deserved more support today. I felt that as an England fan going to England games before I was, you know, when I was young and not in the media at all, that there was a sort of inhibition for England fans, especially at home.

20:40I know there's lots of kids and families, but I remember at Year 96, at half-time all the Scotland fans just booming out of status quo and having the time of their life. and us all standing there going, I wish we could have that much fun, but for some reason we can't. Yeah, this is why England always had trouble winning at Lords for a long time because for every team visiting, it's their cup final. It's a huge occasion for them. And the other side of it is that England play at Wembley far too much. They play at Lords far too much. They play at Wembley far too much and it becomes almost rote and routine for them.

21:12And you would say to Tuchel, well, welcome to a Wembley October friendly. that is basically what it's like and that's something you have to that's something you have to live with and other countries get around this by taking their games to other stadiums uh which england have started to do a little bit to be fair to them but i think there is a huge difference between the atmosphere at wembley and the atmosphere you would get at you know biller park stadium of light like you know you could name 30 grounds in in england where you would get a much better you know you'd maybe lose out a little bit on club wembley subscriptions and and whatever but you might you get a much better atmosphere supporting the team but obviously the fa need wembley they need to milk wembley for as much as they can get because that is their that is their you know cash cow and that's something that tukul knew when he took on the job and that's something he's going to have to work with but i think there's one thing we should thank the fa for because I have to say I'm not the only one who found that their partnership with the Alzheimer's Society, it was very, very, very powerful.

22:19And to watch these people who are suffering from this awful disease come to the pitch with the England players who, by the way, were chatting to absolutely everybody and singing the national anthem, I have to say I cracked up a bit. It was well done, the FA, for that. Yeah. Now fund some proper research. the the mascots that led the teams out were 22 men and women suffering or living with alzheimer's disease or dementia um and it was the alzheimer's society uh who did that initiative fans were chosen from england and wales and yes a good point you make johnny about uh research into the impact of playing football no no like sorry campaigners have been i've been saying that the the fa have been dragging their feet and you know not not just the fa but football bodies have been dragging their feet on properly funding like really thorough comprehensive studies and research into into you know mnd and alzheimer's and other kind of uh related diseases so you know it's a really nice gesture but obviously it needs to be you know open your open your wallets well it's not really up to the fa to fund that it's i think it's to our government um to to fund that the fa is not responsible for funding medical research apart of course in in conditions which are created by playing football which is not exactly what this is about and i think we shouldn't be too harsh on them it actually really brought home the message i think on this occasion i think we sometimes we have to see the glass half full when it is not quite so i agree with that all right that'll do for part one uh you and murray will join us from the jazz bar to talk about scotland's win over Greece in part two.

23:47The Jazz Bar.

23:58Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. Live from the Jazz Bar, Ewan Murray joins us. How are you, Ewan? You okay? Hello, how are you? Yeah, very good. Ken says, which was the biggest British theft from Greece, Scotland's amazing results tonight, or the Elgin marbles? yeah I mean look when you first see 3-1 you think oh that's a good comeback but it doesn't tell the whole story does it Ewan? No I mean I've witnessed a lot of weird football games in my time but that was right up there I mean how Scotland won let alone by two clear goals I don't know that's twice Scotland have done that to Greece they did it in Athens in the first leg of the Nations League playoff in March now Greece came back and won the second leg 3-0 so it didn't really matter but that's two games out of three, I think Scotland have been comprehensively outplayed by Greece, but have won the game.

24:48So they'll be sick of the sight of us at this point. Yeah, it means Scotland are second. I mean, they're level on points with Denmark. I mean, that, you know, given how the group would look, Ewan, if Greece had won this game, like they should have done, it's absolutely enormous, isn't it? Absolutely. And listen, the flip side is, you know, ultimately Greece didn't take their opportunities. So, I mean, part if you shrug your shoulders and say, well, you know, in that case, you don't deserve to win. So maybe we shouldn't shed tears for them. But yeah, Scotland are now in a fantastic position. They play Belarus on Sunday, who I think I can comfortably say they will beat.

25:25And then they go to Greece and then a home game against Denmark to finish off, which already looks like a massive tie. They're in a better position than I thought they would be in. And they're in, I think, the best position since 1998 to get back to a World Cup. The way you said they will comfortably beat Belarus is the most confident I've ever heard anyone say predict a Scotland result. I just heard a very loud internal alarm bell when he said that. No, no, no. This Belarus team is very, very poor. Scotland are at home. I'm happy to come back on here on Monday morning dressed however you want me to dress and saying whatever you want me to say.

26:07I think Scotland will win. I'm quite happy saying that. And I'm a cynic, as you know. Yes, we do. Steve Gottman, he took off Ganon Doak, who was playing well. There was not a certain end product, but he was a really bright spark. Brought on Billy Gilmore, and actually it did make a difference, didn't it? Yeah, I'm not sure how well Ganon Doak was playing. That sort of situation was met with dismay in the stands. The important thing was putting Gilmore on just to get a bit of control of the game and keep the ball in midfield, and he did that very well. you know Gilmer has a habit of not playing you know Clarke has a habit of not picking him in some of these bigger games for Scotland which raises eyebrows because until he came on Greece were completely dominating that part of the pitch Yeah and look you have to credit them for scoring three goals Ewan Yeah absolutely that's what I mean for all I openly say I think Greece were superior in so many departments they didn't take their chances and Scotland did I mean I don't know if you've seen the third goal the London Dights goal it was an all-time all-time howler by the Greek goalkeeper.

27:09So I don't know how much praise you give Scotland for that. But yeah, I mean, from 1-0 down, from being on the ropes, and at that point in your whole World Cup situations in deep jeopardy, they recovered very well and got the result they needed. And in such a truncated section, that's ultimately all that counts. And actually it's worth you on pointing out the save that Angus Gunn made just before Linden Dyke scored. It's a brilliant save. Brilliant save from Karetsa who came on he was on the bench the Greek kind of wonder kid but he's had flu so he didn't start the game he came on that would have been 2-2 and fair play to Angus Gunn he's gone to Nottingham Forest where he's not playing I think going by his own comments he expected to play a lot more than he he has been so he's not had competitive action but Scotland needed him there and he pulled out a great save because that would have been again 2-2 draw it home with Greece the mood would be totally different to what it is this morning.

28:08Ewan, goalkeeper is an issue for Scotland, isn't it? Because the three goalies they had in the squad last night had, I think, one appearance between them. This season, the guy from Rangers, whose name escapes me, then there's him, Gunn and Craig Gordon. So that, and Craig Gordon's obviously injury prone and 42. So it's going to be an issue for them, isn't it? Absolutely, there's a bit of a national crisis with goalkeepers To be fair to Gunn, who I have never been particularly sure about he's played very well for Scotland recently he played very well in Copenhagen in the last month at the start of the section as we just said when called upon last night he pulled out a save but there is a broader and bigger problem that Scotland has a massive talent gap between Craig Gordon as you say Craig isn't playing for hearts he's not the first choice goalkeeper at heart so having come back from injury anyway but there's no one apparently younger coming through so we're kind of hoping that Angus Gunn does reasonably well and we hang on to him as the first choice goalkeeper for now and someone emerges from the shadows but there's a broader and bigger issue there about the lack of Scottish goalkeeping talent Look, it's every part of me just itching to say what about Antiniemi but you know that's it for listeners who haven't heard that clip somebody rings in TalkSport years ago to talk about who to pick in goal and he says what about Antti Niemi and someone says he's Finnish and the guy says he's not Finnish, he's near Finnish, he's only 28, it's just one of the great phone calls in phoning history surely nobody anywhere has not heard that by now surely you don't have to repeat that Antti Niemi?

29:57Aye, I don't know why he doesn't get a game for Scotland? Aye He's from Finland. He's what? He's Finnish, isn't he? He's not Finnish. He's only 28. No, not Finnish. He's from Finland. What do you mean? That's where his nationality is Finnish. He's from Finland. He's not Scottish? No. Oh, I thought he was Scottish. Jim says, would Barry have scored the opportunity that Greece passed up in the first 10 minutes? Or is it only head as he does at the back post? It was some miss from Pavlidis, Barry, wasn't it? Yeah, the ball was squared across the face. a goal he had a tap in at the back post and somehow didn't connect with the ball he missed another good opportunity as well headed over when he should have scored I mean Mazuris he fired over when he probably should have scored Greece should have been out of sight I think Scotland well there's no question they rode their luck last night but fair play to them they got there in the end Steve Clark said after the match She said, you know, the first half was tricky, but, you know, Grease didn't really carve us open.

31:03I thought, hmm. I think they did. Johnny? Clark's been in charge for six years now, right? I was watching the game at the pub last night because they had several screens. They were showing the England game and they were showing the Scotland game, also the World Grand Prix darts. So that was kind of the optimum setup. And, you know, there were a couple of Scottish fans, Scottish guys there. And what they kept saying was under Clark that they don't seem to have... they kept saying, we've got no identity, we've got no playing style. And I wondered whether that was because of the talent that is available to him now, which is of a kind of different order to predecessors in his job, you know, that kind of Serie A midfield.