Dockers derby delivers and England squad upheaval – Football Weekly podcast

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30George Elek:at Birmingham while Wolves beat West Brom. Southampton's recent decent run is ended at Wrexham who try some hilarious Spygate material before and after. Burnley at bottom, what's going on there? In League One, Bradford lead the way, just three points clear of fifth place high-flying Cambridge while Barnet are top of League Two. We'll see if any England players haven't pulled out of the squad before the Odyssey international break begins. Your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

0:56George Elek:On the panel today, Barry Glendening, welcome. Hi, Max. hello sanny rudrovadula hello max and from not the top 20 george alec all right george hello max yeah all good we'll start with the championship then swansea top 17 points from eight games uh west ham middlesbrough both have 15 from eight wolves 14 from seven uh west brom 14 from eight qpr 13 from eight and we have to start the new den millwall two west ham two uh george you were there uh how was it yeah should should clarify that i was there very much for work reasons not one of these vloggers coming in and um as a football tourist because i know that tickets were hard to come by for millwall fans we're making a film about the about the rivalry um because we share a sponsor with millwall so we were there very much in a kind of work capacity but it was yeah it was amazing it was actually genuine genuinely one of the most enjoyable and thrilling live sporting events i think i've ever been to um and for all the right reasons as well obviously the the notoriety of the game precedes it there was a lot of stuff before about you know the police presence and other things i think the reality is that the den is is quite easy to police because there is already a very kind of set way that the away fans travel to the away end um i think the game at the london stadium might be more difficult for the police to sort out given um the issues there in the past and the way that that that stadium is set up um but in terms of the actual atmosphere and the game itself it was it was unbelievable um the the 10-15 minutes before kickoff was as loud a stadium as I can remember being in.

2:23The renditions of London Calling and the various kind of Millwall songs that we know all about were incredible. The sound when the teams came out and at kickoff, Jenson Metcalf, the Millwall semi-fielder, basically going through Jared Bowen after 15 seconds and setting the tone for the game was amazing. The performance from Millwall in that first half where they, I don't think any Millwall fan could have possibly envisaged the dominance that they would show over West Ham in that first half. I don't think any West Ham fan could have possibly thought it could have gone as badly for them. Millwall were sensational in the first half.

2:54The fact that both goals going 1-0 and 2-0 up through Caleb Taylor and Kamil Negley both came from Linden Dyke's long throws just seems absolutely perfect. Like your 6 '4 centre forward launching it into the box to be prodded home by a centre-back in the first case after Hermanson made a couple of very good saves. Mark Sykes nearly scored one of the best goals I've ever seen live. Amazing, wasn't it? And it rolled, but it had that just enough bobble on it to enable him to hit it in the way that he did and cannon off the crossbar. We had an amazing view of it. And then the second half, where West Ham came back into the game inevitably as we thought they would, seeing them score twice, being at the other end of the stadium.

3:29But the limbs in the West Ham end after their equalising goal was absolutely remarkable to see live as well and the noise that came out of it. And then in the last 10 minutes, when it felt like West Ham were probably going to find a winner, we then had a huge opportunity for Millwall to win it. Lisby kind of set through having closed down a Kante clearance. I think his first and second touch weren't great and it meant that he couldn't really get away from Kante. Kante made up the ground quickly and obviously took one for the team and took what was unquestionably a very clever red card to take.

3:58But there was that moment of anticipation in the stadium from the moment that Lisby made the block until he was fouled where there was this collective intake of breath where I think everyone thought, oh my God, are we about to see one of the most iconic goals in EFL history? and it was a shame that it was taken away from us. But yeah, an amazing day out. Didn't see any trouble, just saw a lot of people very passionate and looking around us in the home end when that Negley second goal came in and seeing the look of disbelief on the face of all the Millwall fans, you know, 14 years since they'd last played them.

4:33It's a rivalry steeped in history, but they haven't actually played each other very often over the last kind of 50 years or so. But Millwall's home record, They were unbeaten five home games against West Ham coming into this game and preserving that, I think, in the end. Even though they'll be so frustrated they couldn't win it, will still be seen as the most important thing.

4:53George Elek:I did wonder why Lyndon Dykes, I just don't remember him ever getting the ball for Scotland and just hoying it in. I was like, this is his most potent weapon.

5:00Max Rushden:I was really surprised by, you know, you could excuse a team of West Ham's quality for letting one in, but to let two in is careless. One is unfortunate, two is careless. And that Mark Sykes shot was incredible. If that had gone in, I mean, it probably, Millwall probably would have won the game, and what a goal it would have been. I suppose, I mean, George has really covered this incredibly thoroughly. The only thing, there was a bit of unpleasantness where Tati Castellanos was accused of spitting at the mid-ball goalkeeper, Philip Marshall. Marshall made the accusation. The video evidence seems pretty inconclusive, I would say, but it also seems a weird thing for Marshall to make up.

5:51It was Marshall's debut who joined from Stevenage in the summer, and he was, to be thrust into that being your first game for the new club. the first half, you know, sorry, the second half in front of the West Ham fans. He was brilliant. He came out and claimed everything. He couldn't be blamed for the two goals. Yeah, I mean, as Barry says, inconclusive as to whether or not the accusation came to anything. We didn't really know what was going on, obviously, in the ground. Just there was a pause in play. But I've seen the highlights. I've seen the replays. There's a picture where it looks like you can see something, but then on the video, you can't really see it.

6:23George Elek:Yeah, he seems quite far away, doesn't he? I mean, the Millwall centre-backs are so big. I mean, I remember seeing Jake Cooper at the Abbey earlier this season. I mean, it says six foot six, but there's every chance he's eight foot. Like they're both just enormous, aren't they? Sani, I know you love this game as well. The limbs, right? Because there are those videos in the West Ham end. Can I simultaneously say they are amazing, but at the same time, it looks like a place I'm glad I wasn't. I just don't. It's just the sort of the incredible, like this. It's funny about these rivalries when a team hasn't played that often.

6:56George Elek:so like it's built up through sort of history and not actually experience for a lot of these guys are young are too young really to have been at a game against west ham unless they were like 10 like there might be some 30 year olds in there but like the sort of emotion they have is i don't think i can generate that emotion for anything yeah anytime you see the fans like climb onto like the pvc coverings that are divided yeah that that's when you know and it'll be like some old boy just like fall through the gaps and stuff i think there were only six arrests in all this max You know, there was like that massive exclusion zone and somebody brilliantly online had like transposed the exclusion zone onto the opening credits of EastEnders.

7:36And so it was all like blanked out. And I was wondering why there were so few arrests. It's probably because it's been so long, what, 14 years, 14, 15 years. All these all these like Green Street Ultras, all these hooligans, they're all old men now, aren't they? Yeah. They can't they can't bring themselves to start a fight. They're happy to just get to the ground, just get in there, and then not fall through that canvas when celebrating a goal in the last minute.

7:59Max Rushden:Just a rumour, but it's something I heard. There were 11 arrests in Stratford on Friday night near a known West Ham haunt. People were arrested. I think it was suspicion of conspiring to commit public disorder. What I heard is that West Ham fans had set up this meet, then not turned up, but called the police. yeah that's the the rumor and apparently when they turned up as well because you know a match day west ham pub not on match day in london they're like for a game i think it's just full of punters they're all like oh yeah like we're not yeah do you want to scrap not not really uh no we're okay i guess a sign of the times in london it was a bermondsey street festival on saturday afternoon so where once you'd expect there to be you know um clashes of firms instead there was street food and pastries probably prams and buggies and cinnamon lattes and i probably would have fitted

8:58George Elek:in better there if we'd be a bit brutally honest um can you just george just before we move on with this game just do a bit about the history of the rivalry because there are probably a lot of listeners who don't know it apart from know that they don't like each other but yeah so basically it's the dockers derby so initially both clubs when they were when they were formed um were based on the isle of dogs one on the south side one on the north side and you know they've since kind of split and moved away um but the you know the the striking thing about this i guess is that i think we think of these rivalries and these derbies you know the flash points and the the um the trouble between the fans going back in an era where hooliganism was more prevalent you know back in the 80s and whatever whereas in this derby there's there's been huge trouble in in more recent um games 2004 um i we interviewed danny diccio who was the the last player to score a winner for Millwall against West Ham and he told an amazing story about how he was on he was on the pitch at the den and suddenly heard this kind of um this this noise behind him and turned around and a police horse galloped past him on the side of the pitch on its way to go and to go and sort out some trouble in the corner um you know there's been some serious issues with with fighting between the two sets of fans um there have been you know some pretty significant casualties and fatalities in the past too but what I should also say crucially is that you know as is the football has changed a lot in the last 15-20 years Billy Bonds obviously passed away last year who is a West Ham playing legend but also a former Millwall manager and had family who are Millwall fans and the respect shown by Millwall when Bonds died last year was definitely befitting of the new era Isla Caton who was a young West Ham fan who sadly died back in 2022 she needed some expensive care for her neuroblastoma condition and Millwall fans you know basically united with West Ham fans and did a lot of work to raise money for her and even a Millwall fan ran from the den to London Stadium wearing a West Ham shirt with Millwall FC for Isla on the back so you know it has changed a bit there is obviously still a huge amount of animosity between the two clubs and sets of fans I'm sure there were scraps and the desire for many to do that and I'm sure fans of a certain vintage would wish there wasn't necessarily the kind of coming together with the two clubs but it's an amazing rivalry and I think that whenever you have a two clubs that have that history that you know it dates back a century but also has some kind of really nasty stuff in more recent history um it's always going to be really really charged going there as a neutral and even having to do some kind of filming on the day and things like that it never felt um in any way threatening Swansea are top of the league uh they won 2-1 at Lincoln came from behind scored a deflected winner from the highlights sunny it did look like Swansea are lots of tiny little nifty footballers and Lincoln are like a big selection of oafs and and I you know like Lincoln are 12th they must be really happy with that and and you know they've

11:46Max Rushden:done so brilliantly and you're saying the imps are a team of giants is what I'm saying you're

11:51George Elek:absolutely right um so like please put me right but certainly from a Swansea point of view to begin with they I saw them score one goal earlier this season which was absolutely amazing like passing from back to front. They look like they play some really good stuff. What's interesting is similar to Coventry City last season. They've got the same manager and more or less the same core of players. And I think, again, we're in a situation in a championship where there are a lot of teams that are of a similar level. And compared to, say, Burnley, who they beat, what, 3-1 the game before, who've had another change of manager, a huge turnover of players.

12:24You've got essentially the same core. I mean, I was looking at the XI from that game, and I think maybe all bar two We're all in the team last season. So you've got that continuity. They all understand each other. They all know what to do. And that's why they can play it around, right? I think this is where coaches who are given the time and have a pretty solid foundation can do pretty well. I mean, where they go from there, that's a whole other story for another time. But I think that's fundamentally why they're doing well so far because in this early period where teams are still finding their feet, they've kind of got the same core and they've got a decent manager, highly sought, able to enact his, you know, what he wanted to get in.

13:01Middlesbrough after him, when last season as well, he went to Swansea and here we are. So, yeah, I think that's, I think that fundamentally for me, that's why, that's why the main core of players.

13:13George Elek:George, do you think they can maintain it? Yeah, I don't see why not. I mean, they are genuinely a very good team. I don't think this is a case of a side who are kind of starting hot, but actually we need to dig into it, aren't as good as they look. they are one of these clubs that are working with Jamestown Analytics, who are the data consultancy firm owned by Tony Bloom. And last season Ipswich had access to Jamestown and did very well with it. There's a pretty big trend of clubs who work with them being quite successful because Jamestown and Tony Bloom are quite good at unnerving talent and understanding what makes a footballer good, as can be seen by the success of Brighton Hove Albion over the last few seasons.

13:52So it's not a massive surprise that their signings, of which we knew very little of most of them over the course of the summer, have come in and done really well. You know, Yao, the winger who scored the opening goal, has come in a 22-year-old winger who's looking really sharp. Elijah Just, who came down from Scotland, having had a very good World Cup. He's started a bit slower, but he looks like a good player. Stephen Welsh, Scottish centre-back, who's a very good ball player. You know, these players have come in and immediately settled in. I think in Vitor Matos, they've got a young coach who has come in and immediately improved him last season.

14:28Looks like he's kind of a proper, you know, in terms of managerial prospect, someone who's showing very quickly how good he might be. So, you know, personally, I think even though there's a lot of quality in the squads of West Ham and Wolves, you know when you compare them to title winners in the championship of the recent past the likes of you know daniel farker's leads team um or last season's coventry and others that they just seem to have periods of games where they aren't as dominant um and it feels like maybe a more open championship this season i know there seems to be this perception maybe outside the championship the west ham are going to win it with 100 points i just can't see that um even in games where they've been very good or at least the scoreline has reflected a level of dominance um i've been to see them a couple of times already this season they just seem to have a bit of a you know teams find it quite easy to create chances against them at times they've certainly had a couple of home games recently where they've been very good and very strong and made that count but um this could be a season where we said the last season with coventry this could be a season where a non-parachute payment team can go and make a case and there's no reason now you know even though they're it's not a squad necessarily full of household names this is a swansea team at the moment are playing at a very high level.

15:39George Elek:I watched the highlights of Wolves West Brom on Wolves TV which did make it look like Wolves should have won 200-0. You saw this as well, George. Is that fair? Was I being sold a lie? No, no, no. Totally fair. I mean, 200 is quite a lot. But yeah, Max O 'Leary, the West Brom keeper, made a double save in the first half. It was extraordinary. Jigga, the Wolves defender with a header that was tipped away but only in the path of Andre and I have no idea Dejaro O 'Leary was able to get up and then make the second save. And then he made even possibly even a better save later from Minetzi as he was kind of diving the other way and managed to keep an arm outstretched to keep it 0-0.

16:18He's a keeper that came in last season from Bristol City. I think a lot of West Brom fans wanted to replace him in the summer. Instead, they brought in Ingram to be his number two, but he's performing incredibly well. The goal when it came was very avoidable. Nat Phillips was just a horrendous back pass. It wasn't even a back pass. I didn't really know where he was passing it to. bad execution

16:38George Elek:and they defended so well until that moment get rid of it get rid of it Don Goodman on commentary as Phillips made the mistake he said West Brom are normally better in possession than this and then that Phillips just passed it straight into the path of Fair Lopez who clipped it over O 'Leary to make it 1-0 after that Wolves didn't really threaten but they kept West Brom pretty quiet so yeah a big derby day win for Wolves and you know they're another team like West Ham that at times look brilliant they've got so many good players you know Raul Jimenez was injured for this one but in Fairlopers they've probably got the standout player in the championship or one of them so far this season Matis Mane is a player that I absolutely love an 18-year-old left winger who's yet to really kind of get going this season in terms of goals and assists but is very strong but again at times this season they've just looked a little bit worse than some of their parts but this was a much better performance and a really dominant win.

17:35George Elek:Burrow got a late point at Birmingham, finished 2-2. Sort of slightly controversial late goal, Baz, where the Birmingham people drops it and might have his hands on it,

17:42Max Rushden:but I thought it was probably fair enough. I thought it was fair enough, to be honest. James Beedle was in goal for Birmingham, fumbled a free kick, I think, and I don't think he had the ball in control and allowed Burrow to equalise. I actually thought it was a good refereeing decision, but I reckon 99 times out of 100 in a game with no Vara as this one was, the ref would give the keeper the benefit of the doubt. I don't think he deserved the benefit of the doubt on this occasion. I think I'm with you. How's Will Lancashire looking, Tani? He's looking great. He's looking really good. How many goals has he got now?

18:23The thing is he's not the only one popping up with goals and in amongst that, the players around him are really good. Mario Kozio-Dubry on the right wing, who I think you've spoken about before, came through the Arsenal Academy, then went to Brighton, was on loan at Bolton last season. He stepped up to the Championship this campaign. He was involved in the first goal, some great running from him. So they've got some great players around him as well. I think Spurs have a big buyback clause on him. But he's popping up in the right place at the right time, which is kind of what you want, right, between the fans.

18:51Max Rushden:Just on the subject of Kozio-Dubry, I was watching the EFL highlights show I had to keep pausing the TV, and I suppose it's an indication of how old I'm getting. But it was just sons of the fathers. So I'd see a player, hear his name, go, oh, is that such-and-such's boy? So Jadon Heskey, Sheffield Wednesday, yes, a real son. Daniel Iverson at Preston, not Stefan's son, but he is the son of a goalkeeper called Ivan, lesser-known Iverson. Tyrese Campbell at Charlton not Kevin's son but Kevin does have a son who's at Sheffield United he wasn't playing at the weekend also called Tyrese yeah Amir calls your Dewberry at Borough not Michael Dewberry's son he's doing this with everyone Kirill Lisby yes Kevin's son and the twin brother of Kyrese Lisby at Reading who was also Kevin's son.

19:57Max Rushden:Bobby Clark, I knew he was Lee Clark's son. I knew Jay Stansfield was Adam Stansfield's son. But yeah, it was just, we're getting old. Yeah, do you know what?

20:06George Elek:It must be, it sort of makes it sound like, you know, just back in Burr, back in the day, when they'd be like, is that old Seamus' boy? Yeah, it is, sort of that, just on the GAA pitch or whatever.

20:18Max Rushden:Well, the thing is, on the GAA pitch, they'd all, fathers, sons and grandsons, should all be playing on the same team, Max, in some clubs. There are loads of Lisby boys. It's not just the Spins as well. Yeah. So there's Kirill and Kyrese. There's also Caelan, who plays as well. I think there's another. And so we think they should have a, with Kevin, should have a podcast called Ultimate Lisby and just chat about their life in the... Great idea. That's great. I lectured at Salford Union my first year, the other day. They were born in 2008. I couldn't believe it.

20:53George Elek:Yeah. Couldn't believe it. And they can talk. Yeah. It's mad, isn't it? Adults, apparently. Yeah. But welcome if you are young, listening to this, going, these idiots. Wrexham lost 6-0 to West Ham last weekend. They regrouped, beat Southampton 2-1. I mean, their post afterwards, you know, of April the 7th, 2026, Wrexham won, Southampton 5, May the 7th, 2026, Southampton get caught spying on Middlesbrough, September the 19th, 2026, Wrexham 2 Southampton 1 makes you think with that picture of Matt Letizia looking confused up in the sky I'm not sure feels a stretch to me George but um you know it was a good win for them and good for Kiefer yeah and this is after Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney um posted a video or they they Wrexham posted a video of them emerging from behind a tree um in the days running up to it as well um to for a promotional video so um yeah I mean is it a massive surprise that the team or the club who monetize by having a huge TV show have really caught in the controversy before this game?

21:57Probably not. It'll make quite a good episode. I thought when that comes out, I won't be watching. Yeah, and, you know, Wrexham then beat them. I think had Southampton beaten Wrexham, there probably would have been a similar clapback on socials after that initial post. And it was relatively fortunate, I think, the win here. Kiefer Moore put Wrexham 1-0 up. James Ward-Prowse back at Stampton scoring his first goal since returning to the club Kiefer Moore then hit the bar from a shot from halfway which was It's a great strike Interesting Great hit before Schlotterbeck scores an own goal in the 89th minute to give Wrexham a big win It's a significant win for Wrexham showing good resolve to recover from that 6-0 defeat against West Ham I said earlier that West Ham have looked a bit poor at times in games not on this one they were sensational against Wrexham and were fully deserving of that wide margin of victory.

22:48Big week for Sampton though, because everyone may have forgotten about Spygate, but the FA haven't. Wrexham haven't. No, Wrexham haven't. The FA haven't. We are expecting to hear the results of the FA charge on Tondarek hurt at some point this week. It was interesting to see that there was kind of a big media round yesterday with various interviews with major broadcasters on Monday morning, suggesting that they're probably quite worried um because i don't think you're going to wheel out eckert to apologize on the bbc and various other places unless um you want to court some um favor amongst the the masses um and i think there's a a relatively significant chance that eckert's going to get served a ban and if he served a ban then sampton are going to be furious they're going to be looking for a new manager they're going to feel like it's incredibly harsh um but we can't get away from the fact that at the moment, Southampton, the club have been punished.

23:44The man who, you know, the EFL in their findings said orchestrated the whole operation is yet to be punished, apart from the fact that his employers were. So, I'd be very, very surprised if he gets away with nothing, given the allegations and the charges.

23:59Max Rushden:So, I saw that sort of PR campaign and he is throwing himself at the mercy of the FA and said it's out of his hands, but he is saying he has been humiliated, the club have been punished, I can't do anything about what happens next, but reading between the lines is sort of, please go easy on me. And I kind of fell for it, if I'm honest, but he probably is looking at quite a hefty ban, you'd imagine. Yeah, my biggest issue with the whole thing is the way the club initially reacted. like there was when the allegations first came out it was scrambling for any means to distance Eka from the issues reports that you know that um it wasn't true and then that it was he had nothing to do with it or no awareness of it um so that kind of attempt initially to try and get through it rather than hold the hands up and say we made a mistake I think isn't going to sit particularly well um when they make that decision um so yeah we'll have to see and also you have to remember that like punishments are dished out for a reason like you can't look at something sympathetically it has to be a deterrent it has to be the case that managers in the future who get tempted to do this what you don't want to happen is a manager staring down losing their job anyway thinks themselves well you know the precedent's been set that he didn't get a ban it was just the club that got punished let's crack on and do it and if it fails and or if i get caught then it's gonna be too late anyway so yeah as barry says i'd be i'd be very surprised if there isn't some kind of a ban you know it could be a touchline ban it might be the case he's allowed to continue managing the club but can't be in the dugout yes he has to be behind a tree for a year you know it could be a fine um we'll have to see but a lot of people who are much more um aware of previous precedence set for this stuff seem to be convinced that it would be out of step with what's happened in the past if he wasn't given a ban all right that'll do for part

25:55George Elek:one we'll look at the bottom of the championship and lead one and lead two in part two

26:06George Elek:championship looks like this Burnley bottom on four along with Preston Derby have five Cardiff just outside the relegation zone on seven Watford and Portsmouth on eight what's going on with Burnley Sanny I think you've got to go back to the buyouts that got Burnley where they are now So a leveraged buyout, which you might be familiar with how the Glazers bought Manchester United, ALK Capital, led by Alan Pace, the chairman. Borrowed a load of money essentially against the club. Their debts at the moment are about£142 million in my notes here, the interest between 7 % and 12%. So they've had all this debt in the background and it's been okay because they've been going up to the Premier League and, you know, getting the money there and the parachute payments.